Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Oct 2015 21:59

What do you mean by autorotating helicopters. Autorotation is possible in almost all helicopters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 16 Oct 2015 22:03

I meant when any chopper is performing auto rotation, the final maneuver is flare for a safe touchdown

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 Oct 2015 22:09

Neela wrote:Another


I don't think the report for that has come. But, we have discussed this before. That is a classical IGE to OGE transition, flying about 2-3 mtrs off the ground, from paved to grass, over a ledge. I don't know what the pilot was thinking! I am not a heli pilot, but I know you DON'T do that!

But I think the cancellation of the Ecuadorian deal is a setback. HAL's fault or not, it will always be used by competitors wherever Dhruv enters an international competition, and potentially spill over to other HAL products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 16 Oct 2015 22:23

lets assume there are some good terrain maps on the Dhruv, can they plot an impending transition from IGE to OGE?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 17 Oct 2015 11:32

The grounding of all Dhruvs by Ecuador is a major setback to its exports worldwide. Ecuador took a leap of faith in ordering Dhruv.It is unlikely that we will ever see it flying in another S.American country if at all anywhere except nations where we gift them the same. It is becoming the equiv. of our Westland deal,without the alleged scam though. The deficiencies in the Ecuadorean pilots in handling Dhruv,if true,must then acknowledge that the training was deficient esp. in handling some emergency situs.
If as media reports allege,spares and support was another issue,where we said that the "two-year" warranty period was over,must be understood to be a shortcoming in our export policies. We cannot treat a foreign customer,especially the first for the Dhruv, in the same manner as we treat our own armed forces,who put up with any after sales deficiencies from DPSUs as being part of the patriotic Indian "familia".

Worldwide major manufacturers ,like the US,UK,Russia,China,etc.,made large investments in foreign exports often offering their wares at friendship prices.Teams of advisers and technicians followed the product to to ensure that it performed as advertised. They took several years to build up the reputation for their wares and ease of ops with dedicated spares and support. What we should've done was perhaps to offer our pilots flying the helos accompanying Ecuadorean pilots for a two-yr. period,along with technical support.Even auto majors offer extended warrantys on cars. The MOD should realize that if we want to export our defence wares,[b]we must NOT expect to make money initially[/b]. First we have to see that the reliability of the product is maintained as per specs/performance. A lot of hand-holding is required. The Dhruv is flying in v.large numbers in India without too many problems.If there are,they're not being publicised. There seems to be little reason for an excellent helo like Dhruv to suffer serious damage to its international reputation as has happened in Ecuador. The GOI/MOD must seriously tackle this issue and get to the root of the problem and ensure that in future our defence exports are given the highest std. of after-sales service and support ,along with intensive training,if we want to become a major power in the export of defence eqpt.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2015 13:25

Let's not forget that Ecuador had "grounded" 4 out of 7 Dhruvs rather forcefully against the ground. They may have had 3 left - and they have grounded that now.

Dhruv is actually the best in its class for that weight and Ecuador probably got a good price. Someone will pay the Ecuadorian air force some kickbacks and see them something else - let's see what it goes from there. The Ecuadorians may need foreign pilots to fly for them.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 17 Oct 2015 18:20

^^^

The reputation of HAL and its ALH as well as Indian product in general have been tarnished by these incidents. Hard to see more exports in the immediate future.

Still a long way for India to learn about exporting in terms of marketing, competitive bidding, training, after sales support, managing public relations/image damage control, domestic offset investment and industrial partnerships, and government strategic packaging and credit financing. You need as many hooks from business aspects to political leverage to be truly successful.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2015 18:55

srai wrote:^^^

The reputation of HAL and its ALH as well as Indian product in general have been tarnished by these incidents. Hard to see more exports in the immediate future.

Still a long way for India to learn about exporting in terms of marketing, competitive bidding, training, after sales support, managing public relations/image damage control, domestic offset investment and industrial partnerships, and government strategic packaging and credit financing. You need as many hooks from business aspects to political leverage to be truly successful.

My personal opinion is that while it is absolutely essential for HAL to develop all this - a positive spin by Indians that they support our products is equally important. In a loose sense India, HAL and us are all one. The more Indians take the view that they are "independent neutral observers" and judges of all the useless stuff in India - the way our DIE and media do, the worse it is for anything to rise out of the morass.

Anyhow this is all OT

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby member_29172 » 17 Oct 2015 19:08

^^ Not a good idea to paint all Indian products with the same brush. Pilot errors and lack of knowledge seems to show up repeatedly in these documented cases. If anything, HAL should send a team every year or so to the countries that use Dhruv for training purposes. Out of Maldives,Nepal, Suriname, Turkey and Israel that are using Dhruvs in some capacity, only Ecuador and India itself has any records of crashed Dhruvs.

Unless some djin magic happens as soon as an aircraft enters Ecuador, I'd like to see the maintainance and experience of Ecuadorian pilots. India flies around 166 Dhruvs and we have lost around 12 of them over the last 10 years, mostly in remote areas (North east, Leh, J&K, one in Andhra somewhere). Something doesn't add up here.
Either way, I hope HAL provides training and stricter maintainance in good faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv ... _accidents

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 17 Oct 2015 19:24

so, how many of the Ecuadorian pilots were qualified by HAL to fly Dhruv? if HAL has asked them to spend time on the Dhruv simulators for a minimum number of hours?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prasad » 17 Oct 2015 20:27

CTish but what other chopper were the Ecuadorians looking at before they bought the Dhruv? And where these pilots trained at hatsoff before flying them back home?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 17 Oct 2015 22:04

Alka_P wrote:Out of Maldives,Nepal, Suriname, Turkey and Israel that are using Dhruvs in some capacity, only Ecuador and India itself has any records of crashed Dhruvs.

Unless some djin magic happens as soon as an aircraft enters Ecuador, I'd like to see the maintainance and experience of Ecuadorian pilots. India flies around 166 Dhruvs and we have lost around 12 of them over the last 10 years, mostly in remote areas (North east, Leh, J&K, one in Andhra somewhere). Something doesn't add up here.
Either way, I hope HAL provides training and stricter maintainance in good faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Dhruv ... _accidents


Ecuador is mountainous - ideal for Dhruv. But There is no magic. Mountain flying can be dangerous. Training wise - god only knows what the Ecuadorians are like. Probably not great considering that they had 4 training accidents IIRC

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vipul » 18 Oct 2015 04:07

LCH Completes Performance Trials.

State-run aircraft maker Hindustan Aeronautics Limited today said Light Combat Helicopter, the high-altitude attack helicopter, has completed performance trials paving way for finalisation of basic configuration.

Based on successful completion of remaining flight trials, HAL expects operational clearance from CEMILAC (Centre for Military Airworthiness & Certification) very soon, the company said.

It said officiating Chief Executive of CEMILAC G Gouda handed over a letter on completion of performance flight trials of LCH to HAL General Manager M Vijaya Kumar in the presence of Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar and HAL CMD T Suvarana Raju.

The Defence Minister here today visited HAL's helicopter complex and had a detailed look on advanced features and armament fit of LCH prototypes.

"LCH is the only attack helicopter which can operate above 10000-12000 feet altitude with considerable load of armament," CMD Raju said.

LCH has completed performance flight trials which involved not only development testing at Bangalore but also trials at extreme environment conditions such as sea level at Chennai, cold weather at Leh, hot weather at Jodhpur and hot and high altitude tests at Leh, HAL said.

Accordingly, the helicopter can be cleared for weapon trials. With the finalisation of basic configuration, HAL can start production of LCH after the operational clearance, it added.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nick_S » 18 Oct 2015 09:50

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 18 Oct 2015 10:45

Russian, Indian Firms To Co-Produce Ka-226 Helos

NEW DELHI — India's Reliance Defence and Aerospace has partnered with Russian Helicopters and Rosoboronexport to manufacture Ka-226 helicopters in India, said an executive of parent company Reliance Infrastructure.

India gave a firm order to Russia, on nomination basis, to manufacture 200 Ka-226 helicopters for the Indian military. The order could increase because India has a need for more than 400 light utility helicopters in the Ka-226 category.

Despite the arrangement, Russia is not committed to manufacture Ka-226 only at Reliance facilities, said a Russian diplomat. Several parameters pertaining to transfer of technology, cost and creation of infrastructure still need to be worked out, the diplomat said.

After India canceled a global tender last year to purchase 197 light utility helicopters, Russian President Vladimir Putin, during talks in December with the Indian prime minister, offered co-production of Ka-226 light utility helicopters under India's "Buy and Make" category, which includes transfer of technology.

A Reliance Infrastructure executive said he is optimistic production will occur in India because last month his company was allotted 289 acres of land in the state of Maharashtra to set up an aerospace facility which will also house the Ka-226 production facility.

However, some analysts are skeptical whether Reliance Defence and Aerospace, which has no previous experience in manufacturing helicopters, will be able to produce the Ka-226.

“It [manufacturing helicopters] is a highly complex process; [you will have to] develop skills for a helicopter final integration line to be set up and that requires design, engineering, manufacturing and integration process skills to be acquired, trained and mastered. This is a time-consuming and capital intensive process. Some experts feel it is even more complex than aircraft manufacturing. Thus it would be a huge challenging task,” said an executive of India’s private sector major Larsen & Toubro.

An executive of the Tata Group, which is also exploring the possibility of manufacturing helicopters in India, said: “Very difficult, but with proper transfer of technology it can be done. After all, everybody has to start sometime.”

It could take about 10 years before a company starts manufacturing helicopters in India, he added.

Vinod Kumar Narang, retired Indian Air Force air vice marshal, said manufacturing might be possible within five to six years.

“In India , we have enough talent, including ex-Indian Air Force or Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. [HAL] officials who can be trained to manufacture this type of helicopter. Theoretically it is possible for Reliance to manufacture helicopters from scratch. But practically it may not be possible due to constraints like land, finance, timelines, electricity, etc,” he said.

State-owned HAL is the monopoly military aircraft manufacturer and the Air Force would like the MoD to create a private sector competitor.

“Reliance is likely to be more dynamic and flexible than public sector units and may also be more cost efficient,” said Vivek Rae, MoD’s former director general of procurement.

Rae added that Reliance should be able to produce the helicopters at a lower cost. "Labor costs are very high in HAL. It is cheaper to import Russian Su-30 aircraft from Russia than manufacture them in HAL.”

Amit Chowshish, former MoD financial adviser, said he is optimistic Reliance can manufacture helicopters from scratch.

"It cannot be answered hypothetically how long it will take for a new company to start manufacturing from scratch, but putting together an assembly line is more of a managerial challenge. The new entity may decide to leverage the capabilities of the existing medium and small enterprises or even big companies, to become system integrators.”

HAL is still confident that it will partner in making the Ka-226, a HAL executive said. "HAL has been manufacturing helicopters for over three decades and we certainly have capability to build any kind of helicopter."

HAL already has the Light Utility Helicopter program underway and "our helicopter will be certainly much cheaper than the Reliance build," he added.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 19 Oct 2015 02:51

Austin:

The article you posted is old. No decision has been made yet as to which Indian company the Russians will partner with for Ka-226.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Oct 2015 06:42

http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=503 ... -for-India

What's inside Ah-64E for India (compared to the D version, apart from missing stuff ;))
- Higher fuel capacity than D, replacing about 1000 rounds for the gun with fuel.
- Higher payload compared to the D.
- Over 130% jump in transmission reliability over D.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Oct 2015 06:45

http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=505 ... 7-V5-Fleet

IAF wants an 'Indian' EW Suite made by 'Indian' vendors for Mi-17. *Cough* DARE EW Suite for Mi-17 *Cough*.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby brar_w » 19 Oct 2015 07:13

Thakur_B wrote:http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=503&q=What-s-Inside-The-AH-64E-Apache-for-India

What's inside Ah-64E for India (compared to the D version, apart from missing stuff ;))
- Higher fuel capacity than D, replacing about 1000 rounds for the gun with fuel.
- Higher payload compared to the D.
- Over 130% jump in transmission reliability over D.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_lru9On2u4

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pragnya » 19 Oct 2015 09:57

Thakur_B wrote:http://www.spsmai.com/exclusive/?id=505&q=For-EW-Boost-To-Mi-17-V5-Fleet

IAF wants an 'Indian' EW Suite made by 'Indian' vendors for Mi-17. *Cough* DARE EW Suite for Mi-17 *Cough*.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SW0F9XxDni4/U ... Mi-171.jpg

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 19 Oct 2015 12:45

As an aside,the latest Vayu reports that both IAF IA have had some issues with HAL reg. Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 19 Oct 2015 13:56

can helicopters like the Rudra be tailored to counter massed subsonic cruise missile strikes ? ..kind of like cruise missile fighters or would fighter jets do a better job ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 19 Oct 2015 20:35

kit wrote:can helicopters like the Rudra be tailored to counter massed subsonic cruise missile strikes ? ..kind of like cruise missile fighters or would fighter jets do a better job ?

neither

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby brar_w » 21 Oct 2015 01:33


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Mihir » 21 Oct 2015 07:20

Found this interesting image from Malabar 2015 on the US Navy webpage

Ensign Muctarr Bah (left), from Washington D.C., speaks with Capt. Anil Komao (right), from the Indian Navy, in the bridge during a replenishment-at-sea exercise with the Indian Deepak-class fleet tanker INS Shakti (A 57) as a part of Exercise Malabar 2015.

Capt. Komao is wearing an LCH patch. The LCH programme doesn't have Navy test pilots, does it? :-?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby member_29172 » 21 Oct 2015 07:24

^^ they have Dhruvs in the navy, hopefully Rudra is next.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby member_29089 » 21 Oct 2015 08:44

Philip wrote:As an aside,the latest Vayu reports that both IAF IA have had some issues with HAL reg. Dhruv.


:roll:

It's not an "aside", it's the main point you are making in a very subtle and sly way that Indian mfg is NFG. For any complex system there will be "issues" between customer and manufacturer. They will work through the "issues". So the purpose for this post was?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby uddu » 21 Oct 2015 10:30

Mihir wrote:Found this interesting image from Malabar 2015 on the US Navy webpage

Ensign Muctarr Bah (left), from Washington D.C., speaks with Capt. Anil Komao (right), from the Indian Navy, in the bridge during a replenishment-at-sea exercise with the Indian Deepak-class fleet tanker INS Shakti (A 57) as a part of Exercise Malabar 2015.

Capt. Komao is wearing an LCH patch. The LCH programme doesn't have Navy test pilots, does it? :-?


Possibly a new development. LCH can operate from Vikrant, Vikramaditya, Jalashwa, Vishal and the four Amphibious vessels that we plan to induct.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 21 Oct 2015 12:07

Alka_P wrote:^^ they have Dhruvs in the navy, hopefully Rudra is next.


There is no naval (wheeled) variant of the rudra

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby uddu » 21 Oct 2015 12:50

Rudra is another name given to Dhruv with weapons. Rudra is also called as Dhruv Mk-IV. Wheels can be fitted easily.

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saur ... 74550.html

Impressed with the Dhruv platform's avionics and versatility, AAC has begun inducting the first flights of the Rudra AH earlier known as the Weapon System Integrated Dhruv Mk IV. While employing the basic Dhruv layout, Rudra has a higher percentage of carbon-carbon composite materials to achieve weight reduction. It has commonality in avionics with the Dhruv Mk III, sporting a NVG-compatible cockpit with MFDs, dual flight controls and an autopilot. The avionics suite like the standard Dhruv also includes GPS, FLIR, HF/UHF communications radio, IFF, Doppler navigation and a radio altimeter. An EO (Electro-optic) pod helmet-mounted sight and fixed sights ensure accurate targeting with onboard weapons.Rudra however has a slightly higher rated version of the Shakti turboshaft with each of its two Shakti engines delivering maximum continuous power of 1,067kW as opposed to 1,000 kW in the Dhruv Mk III. The Shakti engines give the helicopter a sustained max speed of 270 kmph and enable it to fly to over 20000 feet, thereby making it very useful for engaging targets in the mountains in a variety of scenarios. This the Rudra will do with either a Nexter THL-20 chin mounted gun turret housing a 20 mm M621 cannon, 70 mm rockets, air launched air to ground/ anti-tank missiles and will even air to air missiles for use against UAVs and perhaps other helicopters.The Rudra's scope of employment is obviously not tailored merely to the mountains but also includes a very important anti-armour component in the plains. Indeed the first sixty helicopters are likely to be assigned to the IA's three Strike Corps for warfare in the plains, based respectively at Bhopal, Ambala and Mathura. The next flights will then head for the new Mountain Strike Corps based in Panagarh.

Indian Navy keen on weaponised Dhruv
https://combatgears.wordpress.com/2013/ ... agle-claw/

The Navy, which had earlier turned its back on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) built by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) over issues with the dimension of the helicopter blade that ostensibly made it unsuitable for ship-borne operations, is learnt to have evinced interest, at Aero India, in the weaponised ALH named Rudra, which was inducted into the Army.

The force, which currently operates eight ALHs mainly for search and rescue operations, is keen on inducting at least 20 Rudras, the Mark 4 version of weapon system integrated ALH, for coastal security operations.

The Coast Guard, in the meantime, may opt for a truncated version of Rudra, probably the Mark 3 variant with a customised side-mounted gun, for the same purpose.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 21 Oct 2015 13:40

uddu wrote:Rudra is another name given to Dhruv with weapons. Rudra is also called as Dhruv Mk-IV. Wheels can be fitted easily.

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saur ... 74550.html


See what the chap on the ground sees when this helo is attacking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdxH7oChXA

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 31 Oct 2015 19:41

Any news on the HAL MRH? Thats the next item on the list that we need to develop. 5/6k sling load and 2-5 hours airtime for hunting submarines.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Surya » 31 Oct 2015 19:50

The way everything is incestous is in India - not everything in Vayu is unmotivated

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 01 Nov 2015 07:32

while this is a dated article,

Only Indian firms to upgrade Mi-17s

there are some 282 odd Mi-17v5's to be added to the IAF fleet, wonder what the valuation would be like to fit such EW systems on the whole fleet?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 01 Nov 2015 10:43

Surya wrote:The way everything is incestous is in India - not everything in Vayu is unmotivated


True.. their pro-Gripen, anti-LCA bias was overt.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 01 Nov 2015 11:07

shiv wrote:
uddu wrote:Rudra is another name given to Dhruv with weapons. Rudra is also called as Dhruv Mk-IV. Wheels can be fitted easily.

http://www.ibnlive.com/blogs/india/saur ... 74550.html


See what the chap on the ground sees when this helo is attacking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADdxH7oChXA


Nice video the frontal view should be no better or worse than Apache , if they dont plan to use the cabin space for armed commandos then they can opt for high caliber guns if it can manage the recoil or may be just more fuel for longer mission

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 06 Nov 2015 15:26

LCH set to achieve final clearance in November
The indigenously designed and built Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is all set to achieve final clearance anytime this month. Following that, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) will start serial production of the attack choppers. The 5.8 tonne multirole attack chopper is intended to play a major role in providing close air support to ground forces and is the only attack helicopter in the world that can operate at heights of 12,000 feet.

“Having completed all performance trails, final clearance is expected anytime soon from the Center for Military Airworthiness & Certification (CEMILAC) in Bangalore. After that we will integrate weapons and finalise configuration as per the requirements of the end users — the Army and Air Force,” a senior HAL official told The Hindu.

HAL already has a firm order for 65 from the Air Force and 114 from the Army. This number is expected to go up given the army’s plan to have attack helicopters embedded in all formations for close air support.

HAL officials explained that unlike fixed wing aircraft which need Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) and Final Operational Clearance (FOC), helicopters usually get a final clearance. The government had earlier informed Parliament that production plans for LCH have been made from 2017-18.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nick_S » 06 Nov 2015 17:24

4 Mi-24 to be transferred to Afghan.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 683593.cms

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby saje » 06 Nov 2015 17:45

Nick_S wrote:4 Mi-24 to be transferred to Afghan.


Such 'darya dili' can only mean that we are getting 4 or more Apaches in fly away condiition from khan very very soon. There's no other way the IAF would've let these birds go. Would even hazard a guess that these first apaches may come from Afghanistan in the same plane that the hinds went in. :D
Last edited by saje on 06 Nov 2015 17:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 06 Nov 2015 17:46

I distinctly recall that till recently, LCH IOC was to be in December 2015 and FOC in 2016. To say that it is just a "final clearance" because there is no IOC/FOC for helicopters sounds a bit fishy.

This looks similar (without the background of rancour) to what happened with Tejas MK1A.


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