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Indian Military Helicopters

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arshyam
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arshyam » 17 Feb 2017 07:32

This guy is massive!

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 17 Feb 2017 10:14

Why is HAL not using the right of phased manufacturing of Shakti Engine? To help imports?

ashishvikas
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Feb 2017 11:01

JayS wrote:From HAL Media Q&A:

ALH - total orders 159, 136 delivered. Rest by 2017-18. 73 more are ordered.



Contradicting Numbers.

ET Defence reports HAL has already delivered 231 and have order of 159 more. On top of it 73 new orders are expected.

This makes total Orders of HAL Dhruv = 463 (231+159+73)

As per wiki for HAL Dhruv Number built = 200+ as of October 2015. So, to me ET Defence numbers looks correct.

What do you think is correct ?

http://m.economictimes.com/news/defence ... aign=cppst

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 17 Feb 2017 11:57

Gyan wrote:Why is HAL not using the right of phased manufacturing of Shakti Engine? To help imports?

Boss. Please do some basic Google search before posting. HAL is manufacturing Shakti in house!

nukavarapu
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nukavarapu » 17 Feb 2017 13:18

Indranil a quick question. The HTSE 1200 will not help for heavy class. Can it be uprated to 2000 and beyond? Also comparing specs from wiki for UH1 and LUH. Huey looks inferior in every aspect except capability to carry 14 passengers compared to only 6 of LUH. How is that possible when the thrust rating of Huey's engine is less compared to LUH?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 17 Feb 2017 13:19

The F mag reports that the LCH is the only helo to have landed at forward bases in the Siachen region,a global first. But what about the Chetak/Cheetahs,now being referred to as the new "flying coffins" which have served us there for decades? If I'm not mistaken too,both contenders for the LUH also had trials in the Siachen region,with the KA-226,the winner required top replace the erstwhile All-3 desi variants. Perhaps the report should mention "attack helos",that may be more accurate.

Nevertheless,the need is to order it in bulk asap.It is infinitely cheaper than the cost of an Apache,whose cost is more than that of some frontline fighters! Second point about the LCH.what is its missile payload? There is little mention what ATGMs and AAMs it carries like other attack helos.
Guys visiting AE,pl ask the gents at the LCH stall about this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 17 Feb 2017 16:02

Indranil wrote:
Gyan wrote:Why is HAL not using the right of phased manufacturing of Shakti Engine? To help imports?

Boss. Please do some basic Google search before posting. HAL is manufacturing Shakti in house!


Pls re-check. HAL is still building the shed in which engine manufacturing plant will be based in future. Pls provide the link/page of annual report of HAL which states that Shakti in being manufactured.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 18 Feb 2017 00:26

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=144971

06-May-2016

The details of Dhruv Advance Light Helicopters (ALH) inducted in Armed Forces so far is given below:-

IAF-66

Army-78

Navy-8

Coast Guard-4

Atmavik
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 18 Feb 2017 00:40

How many of these are rudras?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 18 Feb 2017 01:03

By January 2017, 231nos ALH have been delivered including Dhruv and Rudras. My estimate 35 nos is the delivery of Dhruv to non armed force including export The resultant number to armed force is 196nos. The difference 40nos will comprise of Rudras atleast 25nos on may2016 plus 15nos minimum ALH produced in last 9 months period.

After 159 order DAC cleared 45 nos dhruv in 2012, 41nos in 2013 and 32 no in 2014 to IN,CG. The 73nos new order is composed of last 2 DAC order.

My estimate
IA 40+105+40=185(60 Rudras)
IAF 22+54+45=121(16 Rudras)
IN 8+1+16=25
CG 4+8=12
TOTAL- 343+35=378
231 produced 147 remaining.
Corrections are welcome.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 18 Feb 2017 06:06

Kamov is struggling and has no compelling offering to try international markets. I suspect the ka226 is a sweetheart bailout deal. Time will tell us....might be another wg30 westland

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 18 Feb 2017 06:10

Luh lacks the wire cutter for low level ops unlike uh1. Sad. Fakenews.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 19 Feb 2017 07:46

Gyan wrote:
Indranil wrote:Boss. Please do some basic Google search before posting. HAL is manufacturing Shakti in house!


Pls re-check. HAL is still building the shed in which engine manufacturing plant will be based in future. Pls provide the link/page of annual report of HAL which states that Shakti in being manufactured.

What do you think HAL's Engine division in Bangalore manufactures? The goal was to manufacture 70% of the engine in house. I don't know how far they have reached.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 19 Feb 2017 10:04

sankum wrote:By January 2017, 231nos ALH have been delivered including Dhruv and Rudras. My estimate 35 nos is the delivery of Dhruv to non armed force including export The resultant number to armed force is 196nos. The difference 40nos will comprise of Rudras atleast 25nos on may2016 plus 15nos minimum ALH produced in last 9 months period.

After 159 order DAC cleared 45 nos dhruv in 2012, 41nos in 2013 and 32 no in 2014 to IN,CG. The 73nos new order is composed of last 2 DAC order.

My estimate
IA 40+105+40=185(60 Rudras)
IAF 22+54+45=121(16 Rudras)
IN 8+1+16=25
CG 4+8=12
TOTAL- 343+35=378
231 produced 147 remaining.
Corrections are welcome.


How did you calculate 231 produced? The Minister of defense told parliament that armed forces have inducted only 156 ALH?

This does not look like a good pace if they have orders for 378 on hand and significant LCH orders are on the horizon!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 19 Feb 2017 10:14

HAL has been assembling the engines for a long time now, so there's definitely a shed for it. Component production has probably been increasing as well.

From Aero India 2011 -

A Turbomeca spokesman said that the engines for the first five Dhruv Mk.IIIs were built in France, but that future units would be assembled in India from kits.

Namwar Cheubey, HAL Engine Division’s chief supervisor (customer services), revealed that HAL has already received 65 kits from France, although components will increasingly be built in India. Turbomeca will produce the engine as the Ardiden 1H1.

- Shephard Media

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 19 Feb 2017 12:51

HAL hopes to manufacture 1000 helicopters in next 10 years

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbpMwM4WMD8

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 19 Feb 2017 13:14

There was a news report that by Jan 2017 231 ALH has been produced while a earlier news report was 205nos ALH have been produced by Nov2015.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 19 Feb 2017 22:09

Indranil wrote:
Gyan wrote:
Pls re-check. HAL is still building the shed in which engine manufacturing plant will be based in future. Pls provide the link/page of annual report of HAL which states that Shakti in being manufactured.

What do you think HAL's Engine division in Bangalore manufactures? The goal was to manufacture 70% of the engine in house. I don't know how far they have reached.


That was the plan/goal but was never implemented to benefit imports. They never started hence never reached anywhere.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 21 Feb 2017 00:31

From AW&ST

HAL To Service Saab EW Systems In India

BENGALURU—Saab Grintek Defense (SGD) will transfer its technology to Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) for in-country maintenance of Saab’s Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (IDAS) system in India.

IDAS has been selected as the electronic warfare (EW) self-protection system for the Indian air force (IAF) and the Indian army aviation corps variants of the HAL-made Dhruv Advanced Light Helicopter.

The technology transfer program will run for 24 months and qualify HAL Hyderabad as a Saab-approved IDAS repair facility. The agreement provides for the supply and commissioning of test infrastructure at HAL Hyderabad along with documentation and training of HAL personnel in both Centurion, South Africa, and Hyderabad.

IDAS provides self-protection for airborne platforms and can be configured for radar, laser and missile warning.

..
HAL will focus on maintenance and repair of IDAS equipment for the Indian end-users. Saab will continue to support HAL Hyderabad with spares and proprietary components for the entire service life of IDAS.

The contract follows a long-term business agreement signed by SGD and HAL in 2005, which provides for the delivery of IDAS equipment by SGD, based on annual orders.

Series production of IDAS systems at SGD is currently underway with more than 200 ordered to date.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 21 Feb 2017 00:35

From AW&ST

BENGALURU, India—Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) aims at building a rotorcraft in the class of the Sikorsky S-92 and Russian Helicopters Mi-17, initially to meet what it sees as the needs of the Indian air force.

A preliminary design for the aircraft, the Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH), has been worked out over the past six months, with a key objective of beating the performance of the Mi-17, currently the air force’s workhorse utility helicopter.


Project officials hope to launch full-scale development of the IMRH within six months and fly a prototype in three years. The state manufacturer will need a commitment from the government to buy about 200 helicopters before it can proceed, they say, speaking to Aviation Week at the Aero India exhibition held here Feb. 14-18. Although the preliminary design has been prepared with some knowledge of what the air force wants, the next step is to formally discuss the IMRH with the service and refine the concept.

In preparation for that, HAL displayed a full-scale mockup of the IMRH at Aero India.

Developers are aiming for the IMRH to outperform the Mi-17 on a little less weight, partly by using an airframe mainly of carbon-fiber composite. Gross weight will be 12.5 metric tons (27,600 lb.), compared with 13 metric tons for the Mi-17 and 12 metric tons for the S-92.

Two engines of 1,800 kw (2,400 hp) takeoff rating are needed. The engine will have to be imported. Candidates will include the General Electric T700. HAL’s designers have specified use of dual-channel full-authority digital engine control.

Because so much Indian territory is far above sea level, notably parts near a disputed border with China, unusually high altitude performance is required. Designers are aiming at capability to hover out of ground effect at 4,500 meters (14,800 ft.) with an 800-kg (1,800-lb.) load. The service ceiling is to be 6,500 meters. Such performance is achieved by refining the aerodynamic design of the rotor and ensuring the powerplant will operate at such an altitude.


Sea-level payload is targeted at 3,500 kg, at which altitude range should be 800 km (500 mi.). The cabin is sized to accommodate 24 soldiers. The specifications may be exceeded, program officials say. Although full-scale development frequently reveals performance-penalizing problems, the current design has margins.
...

Key challenges in moving up in size are in development of the rotor and transmission. The five-blade rotor will be articulated with spherical bearings. The Mi-17’s rotor has five blades and the S-92’s four.

HAL will seek assistance from foreign engineering consultancies in developing the IMRH but is ruling out partnership with another helicopter maker. Because it is short of production capacity, HAL will need a privately owned Indian industrial partner to help build the IMRH.

Another key helicopter technology is automatic flight control, but HAL has mastered it in earlier programs. The IMRH will have a four-axis autopilot.

Unlike the Mi-17 but like the S-92, the IMRH will have retractable landing gear. The four-blade tail rotor will have no bearings.


HAL would pursue an order for the navy only after securing a contract to supply the air force. This is because naval helicopters, especially when fitted with anti-submarine warfare systems, are far more complex than utility rotorcraft.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 21 Feb 2017 05:08

^^^
Thats a good peek on what they are thinking. I presume Indian Navy will end up getting its ASW copters from outside vendors for now if those sea hawks need retiring. This bird is still 6/7 years away and they are going straight for Mi17 replacements. That is 150/200 birds that need to be replaced.

I also think by the time IA/IAF give their requirements the engine will move to 2000/2100 kw range. The payload specs seem respectable and pragmatic, although they may a bit on the conservative side for the engine they want in system. They should be able to beat these numbers. Kudos to them to start the ball rolling on internal funds. Hope IA/IAF/IN/CG/BSF do the needful and believe in them and become a party to this effort.

Deejay, do you have any initial thoughts?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 21 Feb 2017 09:45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QRU0DCQt0I

a Video in Hindi about IMRH, LUH and AEWCS. this jurno (krishna mohan) is a rare exception now a days he speaks with great pride abt the desi platforms.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 21 Feb 2017 14:19

Cybaru wrote:^^^
Thats a good peek on what they are thinking. I presume Indian Navy will end up getting its ASW copters from outside vendors for now if those sea hawks need retiring. This bird is still 6/7 years away and they are going straight for Mi17 replacements. That is 150/200 birds that need to be replaced.

I also think by the time IA/IAF give their requirements the engine will move to 2000/2100 kw range. The payload specs seem respectable and pragmatic, although they may a bit on the conservative side for the engine they want in system. They should be able to beat these numbers. Kudos to them to start the ball rolling on internal funds. Hope IA/IAF/IN/CG/BSF do the needful and believe in them and become a party to this effort.

Deejay, do you have any initial thoughts?


IMRH is good and it impressed all. The mock up was in the Indo US pavilion hangar. Had the walls surrounding the Mock up been lower it would have dominated the entire pavilion. Had a "dekho" up and close on 03 occasions.

Militarily, it opens an exciting future possibility in the medium lift heli section. HAL rotary wing division is surprising us every few months and IMRH came out of the blue to aero India. Glad that it did. IN and IA will grab the machine provided HAL can do the IN mods. IAF will lose out big time on helicopter roles if it sits back on the IMRH.

Personally, I would have liked 7kms as service ceiling more than the present 6.5kms. 3 tons of payload at sea level is not bad but for high altitude (North and East) of Leh it may not be enough (IMO). Do not get me wrong, I am only dropping my wishful thoughts and ideas here.

All the best to HAL. Now, that I have seen the mock up - really wish to see it fly.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 21 Feb 2017 22:03

deejay wrote:Personally, I would have liked 7kms as service ceiling more than the present 6.5kms. 3 tons of payload at sea level is not bad but for high altitude (North and East) of Leh it may not be enough (IMO). Do not get me wrong, I am only dropping my wishful thoughts and ideas here.


I think after all the stake holders give their requirements, things will change quite a bit. I am expecting the high altitude numbers to change quite drastically as they look at all the requirements and see what engines they can use to meet those expectations. By Next AI2019, we will see it firm up and the design evolve and change to a real thing.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Marten » 22 Feb 2017 00:44

The IMRH model was built by Tata Elxsi.
Are they into choppers now?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 22 Feb 2017 02:20

Marten wrote:The IMRH model was built by Tata Elxsi.
Are they into choppers now?


Tata makes major chopper parts including the entire frame/body for Boeing, but that is a different group. Tata Elxsi from what I have heard is a design studio focused on technical and engineering products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 22 Feb 2017 06:32

Gyan wrote:
Indranil wrote:What do you think HAL's Engine division in Bangalore manufactures? The goal was to manufacture 70% of the engine in house. I don't know how far they have reached.


That was the plan/goal but was never implemented to benefit imports. They never started hence never reached anywhere.

I don't know if you are doing it deliberately or you know nothing about HAL.
Shakti is being made in HAL for years now with a dedicated production facility. Please dont post lies or your imaginations on a forum like BRF.

Cheers!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 22 Feb 2017 09:03

I think he is confused with the upcoming MRO facility.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 22 Feb 2017 11:44

Ambitious plans.The civvie market should not be forgotten,as we need such helos for offshore platform support,passr. services,air ambulances,etc.,etc.
In fact given the huge number of MI-17s with us-we must be the largest operator outside Russia, we should've set up a manufacturing line for the same years ago. BY now we would've been in an advanced stage in a desi dev. saving a few years. This is a perfect programme for the IN to join. Multi-role/ASW helos,an AEW variant,assault version for amphib ops,will take the number to over 100. However,a spointedout,the IN needs these helso as of yesterday! So its going to be a shoot out between the Zero-peons and the Yanquis.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 22 Feb 2017 18:15



A kargil like operation would be over in days, not months, if something like LCH was present in large numbers.

LCH with unguided rockets alone would have cleaned up half the paki bunkers on mountaintops.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sumair » 22 Feb 2017 21:16

Thakur_B wrote:


A kargil like operation would be over in days, not months, if something like LCH was present in large numbers.

LCH with unguided rockets alone would have cleaned up half the paki bunkers on mountaintops.


Kargil would have been over in days if had a government with some back bone and bit of a common sense

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 22 Feb 2017 21:34

Somebody was telling me that he was talking to the CO of the squadron of ALH that flies to Siachen and Leh. He is so satisfied with the heli that he does not want a single thing changed on the helicopter. He doesn't bother about LUH or IMRH. If required, he will take more or less sorties.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 22 Feb 2017 21:46

Indranil wrote:Somebody was telling me that he was talking to the CO of the squadron of ALH that flies to Siachen and Leh. He is so satisfied with the heli that he does not want a single thing changed on the helicopter. He doesn't bother about LUH or IMRH. If required, he will take more or less sorties.


Enshrine this somewhere in stone and put it for all to see!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 22 Feb 2017 22:10

Thakur_B wrote:


A kargil like operation would be over in days, not months, if something like LCH was present in large numbers.

LCH with unguided rockets alone would have cleaned up half the paki bunkers on mountaintops.

Seventeen years after the war, India has an indigenous combat helicopter that can carry out operations even at the 19,600-feet high Siachen glacier. Designed and built by HAL, the Light Combat Helicopter is the only machine in the world that can carry out operations at such high altitudes.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2017 22:14

Imo the imrh looks but too tall for a naval heli...they should target tri service from day1 and arrive at right shape size weight and engine from day2 ...rest are adjustable

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 22 Feb 2017 22:17

You are welcome to post link from HAL Financial Statements where they claim manufacture of Shakti Engine. All I got is abuses from you and third party old articles full of surmises.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 22 Feb 2017 22:44

Singha wrote:Imo the imrh looks but too tall for a naval heli...they should target tri service from day1 and arrive at right shape size weight and engine from day2 ...rest are adjustable


The VVIPs need to stand. this is requirement was changed my the earlier PMO put this requirement in.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 22 Feb 2017 22:52

Gyan wrote:You are welcome to post link from HAL Financial Statements where they claim manufacture of Shakti Engine. All I got is abuses from you and third party old articles full of surmises.


Listen to T Suvarna Raju, CMD, HAL.

4:40 - He mentions HAL is making all Heli engines from raw materials currently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBIviUPOwFc

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 22 Feb 2017 22:53

Vvip fleet need is hardly 6. Tri service need is 100s...


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