Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 10 Jun 2018 16:52

sudhan wrote:Isn't Sarsawa the home base for the SG? :twisted:

This Dhruv looks slick. Are these Mk3 variants for SpecOps`?


I would say anyone can pass this off as "made in US / Germany" etc ! ..quite TFTA

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bob V » 11 Jun 2018 14:36

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1002469870313693184

PRESS RELEASE | Tata Boeing Aerospace Ltd announced delivery of the first AH-64 Apache combat helicopter fuselage ahead of schedule from its state-of-the-art facility in Hyderabad. The fuselage will now be transported to Boeing’s AH-64 Apache manufacturing facility in Mesa, AZ,


Image


As per chaiwala info, the first fuselage has already been integrated with engines & avionics and has undergone a round of flight testing.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jun 2018 15:30

If TATA is capable of meeting quality requirements for Boeing. Then it is perfectly capable of meeting the needs of HAL for LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2018 23:42

Picture in link...photo is copyrighted (bottom right of photo) and I cannot reproduce here without permission.

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 7938567168 ---> HAL Rudra Attack Helicopter with M621 Cannon on a THL20 Chin Turret along with Forges De Zeebrugee 70 mm Rockets and stub wings to carry Mistral ATAM missiles. Rudra also has a IDAS-3 Electronic Warfare suite with MAW300, LWS310, WS300 and BOP-L dispenser along with CoMPASS.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2018 23:43

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9582106630 ---> King Abdullah bin Hussein bin Talal bin Abdullah, checking out an Indian Air Force ALH Dhruv Mk-III during a visit to the NSG Training Centre at Manesar. Abdullah served with the Royal Jordanian Air Force's anti-tank helicopter wing, where he flew Cobra attack helos.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jun 2018 23:46

Awesome photo!

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 4589332481 --> Ultimate peace through ultimate firepower. 10 Para SF Desert Raiders Commandos seated on their Gypsy-based Light Strike Vehicle while a Mi-35 Hind provides Close Air Support. Apart from 3 Para SF, 10 Para SF is one of the two specialized Desert Warfare units in the Indian Army.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 12 Jun 2018 13:49

You can run but you can't hide. There's nothing more awe-inspiring than air armour! I'll distribute mithai when 50 LCH fly over Rajpath on Republic Day. That'll stop all enemy designs at the border.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 13 Jun 2018 11:06

6 new Apache helicopters "approved" by US govt for $930mln. :eek: :shock: Wonder if IAF and IA think each of these are equal to 5 or 6 LCH?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 13 Jun 2018 11:13

I wonder sometimes about our priorities.. that $930 Mn would have purchased how many SPJs, missiles and munitions for our existing platforms..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 13 Jun 2018 12:13

The only positive thing is something will come on time.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 13 Jun 2018 12:16

ArjunPandit wrote:The only positive thing is something will come on time.


What time are you talking about? Care to elaborate?
LCH is on schedule, by all accounts. And it will be faster to operationalise due to commonalities with Rudra and Dhruv. Apaches will require completely new logistics and armaments.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 13 Jun 2018 12:37

Karan M wrote:I wonder sometimes about our priorities.. that $930 Mn would have purchased how many SPJs, missiles and munitions for our existing platforms..


the only thing desi beauties cannot give is the ego boost of a imported benz/merc that needs a lavish annual maint contract by dealer workshop only , frequently suffers electrical malfunction and hauled away on flatbed trucks...while the desi civic/corolla keeps humming along for 200k miles :D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 13 Jun 2018 14:57

Next time we get news report on how IA does not have money to pay for signed contract and lack of ammo etc, need to show this procurement.

I don't know what 6 Apache will do.. the number is neither here, neither there.

Each Apache almost the cost of Rafale..2-3 times of LCA or 5-6 htt-40...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2018 19:14

JTull wrote:6 new Apache helicopters "approved" by US govt for $930mln. :eek: :shock: Wonder if IAF and IA think each of these are equal to 5 or 6 LCH?



US Defense Security Cooperation Agency Press Release regards the approval of sale of these 6 AH64E's to the Indian Army which is on top of the 22 to the Indian Airforce. Package also includes one hundred eighty (180) AGM-114L-3 Hellfire Longbow missiles; ninety (90) AGM-114R-3 Hellfire II missiles; two hundred (200) Stinger Block I-92H missiles :

India – Support for Direct Commercial Sale of AH-64E Apache Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arun » 13 Jun 2018 20:18

As contrast to the USD 930 Million that India is being hit with, back in Feb 2016 the US offered to sell the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine and Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) for USD 564.68 million.

Even discounting for the raft of missiles India is buying the price seems disproportionate :roll: .

DSCA Clicky

There there is the matter of the sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters ie: more than double of the Heli sales to India, along with a ship load of 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers etc for USD 952 Million back in 2015:

Viper Clicky

Is the US now playing the old equal=equal game by charging a lot more to India than the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic :?:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sahay » 13 Jun 2018 21:10

I wouldn't take the cost as final. A DSCA notification in August 2013 for 145 M777 howitzers estimated the cost as $885 million, but the final deal was inked at $737 million. They're probably padding the cost to account for the usual bureaucratic delays.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 13 Jun 2018 21:40

Lot of Stinger missiles', i wonder if it is also be used for LCH?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 13 Jun 2018 21:41

470 missiles for 6 helicopters!!! Looks like ammunition purchase with an added line item for couple of helicopters.

This contract would not be signed this year unless Finmin provides additional money. More approvals onlee!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 13 Jun 2018 21:42

John wrote:Lot of Stinger missiles', i wonder if it is also be used for LCH?


That was my thought too but not sure if it’s possible. Have we selected an AA missile for LCHs?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 13 Jun 2018 22:38

arun wrote:As contrast to the USD 930 Million that India is being hit with, back in Feb 2016 the US offered to sell the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic of Pakistan Eight (8) F-16 Block 52 aircraft (two (2) C and six (6) D models), with the F100-PW-229 increased performance engine and Fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) for USD 564.68 million.

Even discounting for the raft of missiles India is buying the price seems disproportionate :roll: .

DSCA Clicky

There there is the matter of the sale of 15 AH-1Z Viper Attack Helicopters ie: more than double of the Heli sales to India, along with a ship load of 1000 AGM-114 R Hellfire II Missiles in containers etc for USD 952 Million back in 2015:

Viper Clicky

Is the US now playing the old equal=equal game by charging a lot more to India than the Mohammadden Terrorism Fomenting Islamic Republic :?:

I remember reading some time back that are 150+ used Vipers that are on the lot now, I don't doubt a lot of them will make its way to our friendly neighbour.
Pentagon To Sell-Off Its AH-1W Super Cobra Attack Helicopter Fleet

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 13 Jun 2018 22:43

Katare wrote:
John wrote:Lot of Stinger missiles', i wonder if it is also be used for LCH?


That was my thought too but not sure if it’s possible. Have we selected an AA missile for LCHs?

Rudra is already using the french Mistral, should be the same with LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 13 Jun 2018 23:48

abhik wrote:
Katare wrote:
That was my thought too but not sure if it’s possible. Have we selected an AA missile for LCHs?

Rudra is already using the french Mistral, should be the same with LCH.

It is using that for trials but it can adapted to switch to use Stinger as well during deployment?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 14 Jun 2018 08:49

This AH64E contract doesn't make any sense.

IAF ordered "D" version
IA ordered "E" version

IAF helicopter and support package cost 1.4 billion for 22 (63 million a pop)
IA helicopter and support package cost 930 million for 6 (155 million a pop)

Unless IA ordered a longer support contract this makes no sense at all. Stinger is the cheapest of all the three missiles.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 14 Jun 2018 09:47

^
From Wiki

AH-64E

The AH-64E features improved digital connectivity, the Joint Tactical Information Distribution System, more powerful T700-GE-701D engines with upgraded face gear transmission to accommodate more power, capability to control unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), full IFR capability, and improved landing gear.


and

AH-64Es are to have the L-3 Communications MUM-TX datalink installed in place of two previous counterparts, communicating on C, D, L, and Ku frequency bands to transmit and receive data and video with all Army UAVs

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Jun 2018 11:00

Err, since we have not signed Comcasa, will we get the L-3 Communication Mum-TX datalink? and what Indian/ Israeli UAV's can the AH-64E communicate with?

And if I am right the airforce ordered AH-64Mk III variant which was later called as AH-64E variant from 2012. So basically we have paid USD 3 Billion for 28 Apache's. Hopefully we are getting bang for the buck.

And wonder if the information obtained by the AN/Apg-78 radar can be tramitted to LCH/ Drones and ALH Rudras through an Indian Datalink?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 14 Jun 2018 14:00

Correct. We have not (and IMHO not likely to) signed COMCASA so the data links will most likely be Indian, like they are for the P8I.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 15 Jun 2018 17:17

https://indianarmy.nic.in/makeinindia/List%20of%20eqpt%20of%20Army%20Aviation.pdf
List of equipment from Army aviation
TECHNOLOGIES / EQUIPMENT FOR INDUSTRY PARTICIPATION

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jun 2018 00:45

Why Apaches for Army, ask critics
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 175255.ece

The Indian Army is a step closer to operating its own attack helicopters, with the U.S. State Department approving the sale of six Apache helicopters. For the Army, it is a long-held ambition, but critics say it is an illogical move. Early this week, the U.S. State Department approved the sale of six additional AH-64 Apache attack helicopters to India for the Army. The Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said the deal would be worth $930 million. Right now, the Army operates only smaller Cheetah and ALH (Advanced Light Helicopters) that weigh less than five tonne. All bigger helicopters, including the Mi-35 attack helicopters, and fixed-wing aircraft are operated by the Indian Air Force (IAF). Former Army chief General V.P. Malik said the Army had been “looking for a long time” for dedicated attack helicopters. “During Kargil [conflict of 1999], we could not use attack helicopters in that area. We used armed helicopters,” he said. General Malik was the Army chief during the Kargil conflict. “In today’s combat situation, they become very important to support combat formations both in the plains and mountains. Particularly when they are with the Army, it can be operated better than when they are with the Air Force,” Gen. Malik said. He argued that all over the world, attack helicopters are with the Army.

‘Ill-advised move’

However, a retired senior Air Force officer countered saying the move is ill-advised. “For operational reasons, logistics and other factors, these helicopters should be with the Air Force. We built our first attack helicopter squadron with fighter pilots,” he pointed out. "Will the Army have its own dedicated maintenance division or will the Air Force maintain them," he asks. “Setting up a maintenance division for just six is creating a white elephant. If the Air Force is going to do it, then the Army will get to blame the Air Force whenever it wants to,” he said. Under the present procurement plan, the IAF will operate 22 Apache attack helicopters, while the Army will have six of them. The IAF procurement plan was approved in 2015. A serving Army officer said the attack helicopters being part of the Army’s corps and operated by the Army will give “an unprecedented teeth as these aircraft can have a disproportionate firepower on enemy tanks on the ground. This is the model that the U.S. Army follows.” The retired Air Force officer pointed out that “we are not a superpower” and need to “optimise resources”. He said the U.S. Army operating attack helicopters has a historical reason from World War II, until when the air elements were part of the U.S. Army.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 16 Jun 2018 00:47

^^^ Can gurus please enlighten me? Is the LCH not capable of anti-armour duties?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2018 01:06

Rakesh wrote:Why Apaches for Army, ask critics
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/w ... 175255.ece


While I am against Army buy 6 Apache, which is a complete waste of money, however this turf war needs to stop. Services are spending more effort arguing against one, than our enemies.

If the services are true to the motto of jointness, It does not matter where the choppers go. I say, give it to the Navy. The 3 services need to learn to use it together.

What is the point of spending money on modernizing, where services are busy fighting their turf.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 16 Jun 2018 01:07

Well IA will be operating 114 LCH and will be maintaining those. I see no issues in it being able to maintain another 6. From my conversations, it seems that IAF is trying to kill IA owning attack helicopters and slowly even kill LCH by ordering more Apaches. (Just a very very disheartened & deeply disappointed messenger).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 16 Jun 2018 01:14

Rakesh wrote:^^^ Can gurus please enlighten me? Is the LCH not capable of anti-armour duties?


I am not a expert and my understanding is both Apache and LCH can perform anti-armour roll but to my understanding Apache is like a MBT and LCH a Light tank. while in pure anti-armour roll a apache is armed with 16 (4x4) hellfire, an LCH can carry 8 (2x4) Helina and in support roll apache can carry 76 70mm rockets an LCH can carry 48 70mm rockets.

I dont support an Apache purchase that too only 6 for almost a billion $ but anyways after S-400 purchase we might not even get the ones originally ordered for IAF

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2018 01:20

Cybaru wrote:Well IA will be operating 114 LCH and will be maintaining those. I see no issues in it being able to maintain another 6. From my conversations, it seems that IAF is trying to kill IA owning attack helicopters and slowly even kill LCH by ordering more Apaches. (Just a very very disheartened & deeply disappointed messenger).


As I said, the services seem to spend lot of effort in such nonsense. There is also the Joint Chief of Staff is hanging fire because none of the service want to give away power. It is conveniently blamed on the government, as it some sort of conspiracy.

IAF is not ordering anything. It is GoI who decides if IAF can have Apache or not. The MoD makes a mess of procurement, at the does not put it's foot down firmly on topics like these.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jun 2018 09:56

It is purely an Indian fetish that says LCH cannot be used for Anti tank ops in its environment. It has the ability to carry 16 atgms. The only issue is developing the quad mount. As lifting 800 kg of load is well within its capabilities.

The other issue of survivability. It is survivable against most light anti air guns.

Not even the Ah 64 can take a stinger hit with a fully functional warhead and return to base.

Exceptional circumstances always occur. But they should not be taken as the bench mark for survivability.

For eg LCH cannot survive against an Akash type threat. But for that matter none of the onther attack helos in the world.

Use it to its strengths and it will win. Use it like an idiot and you will suffer like idiots.

The reason why LCH exists is because of the ALH. If in place of ALH we had designed an mi8 class help. We would be building MCH. Which would be ah64 equivalent.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 16 Jun 2018 10:51

I think the Apache in the Indian context is being purchased for APN 78 radar along with ability to control UAV's, small no of Apache will guide LCH and Armour and update ont he battlefield situation, the Apache will not be used in the manner in which the US uses them.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2018 16:00

Aditya_V wrote:I think the Apache in the Indian context is being purchased for APN 78 radar along with ability to control UAV's, small no of Apache will guide LCH and Armour and update ont he battlefield situation, the Apache will not be used in the manner in which the US uses them.


The Apaches can only control US UAVs, which we don't have. If we are buying only for the radar, it will probably cost us 10-20% of that cost to develop one in house...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 16 Jun 2018 17:26

The report given above states only 4 of the 6 Apache being considered for the army will have the APN78 longbow radar.
Also from the IAF contract 12 of the 22 Apache's will have the radar.

The Apache purchase can be justified only if it can talk to LCH via our data link. Also, a radar for LCH is also being developed. Don't know about the status of the same or when it will be ready.

22 Apache's for the IAF are all that we need. IA should get 114 LCH and hopefully increase the numbers further. IAF is projected to get 65 LCH and that should be more then enough for IAF. In fact given the fact that both IA and IAF are going to be operate gunships separately, I don't know why IAF needs so many attack helicopters? 22 Apache and 65 LCH seems to be a lot. Don't know what role they are supposed to fulfil.


On the other hand, for IA, I would wish that all the 4 strike corps should be equipped with minimum 18 LCH each (I, II, XXI, XVII). XIV, XV, XVI corps should have minimum 8 each, and minimum 8-12 each for IX, X, XI, XII, III and IV corps. Apart from this, we should also have independent air artillery regiments, consisting of 12 LCH. Apart from the strike corps the other formations will have ALH MK-IV Rudra to supplement the numbers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 16 Jun 2018 19:31

Why 6 ah64 for the army? What is the thought process behind this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 16 Jun 2018 19:53

More like to keep the Army happy and let them stop cribbing of them not having attack chopper like Apache but IAF has it.

This is a known turf war between both , IAF does not want to give it up while IA does not want any subordination with IAF and needs its independence.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 17 Jun 2018 05:30

Not really. IA needs support in the strike corps. Those helicopters will be organized into flights and assigned to the corps. All anti-armor role.
IAF are for attack/strike role. Support secondary.
Both services know this.

Let's leave it at that.


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