Indian Military Helicopters

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Cybaru
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Aug 2019 02:55

Oh the offer is for Ramana only - who i think is close by... Unlike admiral, i did not do an open offer, it was targeted..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Aug 2019 02:56

jaysimha wrote:https://www.aeromag.in/magazine.php


Army Chief Flies HAL’s LCH;
Says it is the Machine for Army

page 18
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/7704909476.pdf


IA only not IAF.
IOC in 2017?
When is FOC??
Are they being worked through the paces?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cain Marko » 01 Aug 2019 11:05

Cybaru wrote:Oh the offer is for Ramana only - who i think is close by... Unlike admiral, i did not do an open offer, it was targeted..

Come in Saar, open up the coffers a bit..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Aug 2019 12:19

Cain Marko wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Oh the offer is for Ramana only - who i think is close by... Unlike admiral, i did not do an open offer, it was targeted..

Come in Saar, open up the coffers a bit..


Okay fine, get the IAF order, show up for beer, I will buy..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 01 Aug 2019 14:59

Katare wrote:From MoD report.....

Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) has successfully completed all weapon integration and firing tests in January 2019 and is ready for operational induction. Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of LCH for Army version was accorded by CEMILAC on February 15, 2019.


Sir, as per the report https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/7704909476.pdf Page 18

LCH received Initial Operation Clearance (IOC) on August 26, 2017, in the presence of the Defence Minister.


Additionally, I have confirmation direct from horse's mouth like years back before IOC was granted that IA was satisfied with it - did test very close to the highest field but would like to have IRST on it.

I am surprised that no orders are given to it and still no FOC :eek:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 01 Aug 2019 15:09

It could be different versions or IOC I IOC II nautanki. Anyhow its all done, 15 in manufacturing already and have not heard any rona-dhona from users either so seems all good to me. Except the defense allocation aka moolah

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 01 Aug 2019 15:20

I am also a big fan of LCH and want to see it serve in 100s

But before jumping left and right Has the development completed? FOC is not time bound but completion of test points
LCH is presently in LSP stage, Definitely its not right in the part of MOD for not signing the contract for LSPs but production has not stopped
LCH still doesn't have a On-board self-defence systems including chaff and flare dispensers, none of the TD's have been fitted with atleast till aeroindia. Which is clear from pictures of it from Aeroindia. Also from aeroindia Rudras in service are facing a issue of non availability of 70mm rockets for the launch system that comes as a stranded fit which is also the same for LCH. these rockets are one of the primary weapon of these attack helicopter again a issue with MOD

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 01 Aug 2019 15:48

Lets hope IA can spend 300 Cr on emergency purchase of 70mm rockets so that Rudras and LCH can be put into effective use on the western border before we call in IAF. It is also a good way to increase the costs for NaPak with immediate GoI RoI.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 01 Aug 2019 16:31

The LCH must carry an ATGM, Nag if perfected, something else if not.It's essential.Secondly, it nust have a heavily armoured cockpit capsule for the crew.Ejection seats as on the Ru KA-50s would be great if possible.The intense ground fire expected from AAA systems, MANPADS and SAMs has to be factored in. We lost an MI-8 at Kargil to a Stinger remember?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 01 Aug 2019 18:11

Image

DRDO's Annual Report 2019 features a hitherto unreleased photo of a SANT stand off ATGM (15-20 km range) being launched from a Mi-35 attack helicopter during trials at Pokharan in November 2018.

tweeted @ https://twitter.com/vkthakur/status/1156833859717124096

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 01 Aug 2019 19:53

Wrt 70mm rockets, wasn't some Thales rocket procured ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 01 Aug 2019 21:12

Posting some exchanges from Twitter on the aspect of Naval ALH and the saga of folding blades:

(1) From: Admiral Arun Prakash - ex Chief of Naval Staff

Not factual. IN issued LoI for purchase of 120 ALH fr ship ASW/SAR early 1990's provided HAL could install blade-folding kit. Since hyd/elect wz not feasable we settled for manual. After decades we hv clumsy system of unbolting & lifting rotors. Unusable in rough seas or at nite.


(2) From: A former Indian Navy Helicopter Test Pilot on automatic rotor folding system offered by HAL for Naval ALH.

Pls demo this on a ship rolling & pitching at high seas by night. Sailors have to meet operational tasks; blade folding is not the only evol at sea. Minimal parts/eqpt, winds howling 30-40 kts, CO barking orders to expedite, a crew of 2-3 on deck.
Can we get serious please?


(3) From: Some poster on the same topic of folding rotors for ALH

Had asked the same question to a Naval officer once. He said HAL was ready to give manual folding rotors only which would take a long time to fold and unfold. The Navy wanted one which could fold automatically on flicking a switch or pressing a button

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 01 Aug 2019 21:37

HAL had a working demo of automatic main rotor blades folding system at the recent AI 2019. Was pretty impressive and I was told that system fits & works even inside a hangar (can't think of the actual naval term for this :)) on the ship. HAL folks also said they are confident of the system working in severe sea states. Of course in due course IN will probably test it out and bugs identified will be resolved now that HAL has the basic system/mechanism designed & working.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 01 Aug 2019 21:46

Euro 200million 70mm rockets ordered from Thales. Will have to search for link. Rs 1600 Cr roughly 80000 rockets estimate @Rs 2lakh per rocket.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 01 Aug 2019 22:23

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=191834
This link talks abut order status for HAL

Govt. has prioritized the two projects i.e. 83 LCA-MK1A and 15 LCH for finalization for which Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has given approval.

in my opinion, they dont want to reveal the order status for lch lca in public.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Aug 2019 23:02

jaysimha wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=191834
This link talks abut order status for HAL

Govt. has prioritized the two projects i.e. 83 LCA-MK1A and 15 LCH for finalization for which Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) has given approval.

in my opinion, they dont want to reveal the order status for lch lca in public.


Ha, they be talking about it all day long if they ordered it, it makes no strategic sense to hide this info...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 02 Aug 2019 06:57

sankum wrote:Euro 200million 70mm rockets ordered from Thales. Will have to search for link. Rs 1600 Cr roughly 80000 rockets estimate @Rs 2lakh per rocket.



Must be follow-on to this Feb 2019 report.

pandyan wrote:^ in the same article
Update @ 1.37pm: Five hours after Livefist’s report went up, HAL and Thales have just announced a contract with Thales to supply new rocket launchers for 18 Rudras and 15 Light Combat Helicopters. Statement out a short while ago:

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 02 Aug 2019 18:45

Are any of them going to be made in India or is it a pure play inportgiri?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 02 Aug 2019 19:05

Unable to search for any news link. It was reported in an online defence magazine article post balakot strike. I just jotted down the 200million Euro order for 70mm rockets in my notebook. Though I am always sceptical about news reports.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 02 Aug 2019 22:09

HAL to build combat choppers worth Rs 3,465 crore
Armed with a 20-mm turret gun, 70-mm rockets, air-to-air and anti-tank guided missiles, the LCH
can pour fire onto enemy positions, easing their capture by Indian infantrymen
By Ajai Shukla
On Friday, the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Army initiated the purchase of 15 indigenously
designed and built Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) from Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). The IAF will
take ten helicopters, and the army five. ( as per the above PIB link )

Business Standard learns from HAL sources that the cost of each LCH will be Rs 231 crore, putting the
overall cost of the order at Rs 3,465 crore.

These “limited series production” LCHs would be built in Bengaluru, at a facility that former defence
minister Arun Jaitley inaugurated in August. Subsequently, HAL will set up a large-scale manufacturing
facility in Tumkur to build the 114 LCHs the army has committed to buying, and the 65 the IAF has said it will take. The cost of these 179 LCHs, at current prices, adds up to Rs 41,350 crore


https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... cember.pdf

------------------------------------------------

So BRFites rejoice,,,,,,,,, they must be waiting for tumakuru facility to be fully operational,,

Once it is done, LCHs will be flying out like a swarm of bees :)


I have not seen COAS riding arjun,,,, where as they have flown lch, that means they must be really committed towards it

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 02 Aug 2019 22:12

Sat, 23 Dec, 2017
After Tejas, Hal Gets Request for More Desi Combat Helicopters
By Kestur Vasuki
On August 26, 2017, the Defence Minister launched the production of LCH at Bengaluru and IOC
documents of the basic version were handed over to HAL.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... cember.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 03 Aug 2019 12:32

- Light Combat Helicopter is central to Indian Army's vision of having a Combat Aviation Brigade (CAB) at each Corps HQ level.

- A CAB is to consist of 1 x Attack Helicopter, 1 x Utility Helicopter and 1 x Recce & Observation Helicopter unit.

- Remember, IA has confirmed orders for 60 x Armed Dhruv/Rudra and the same are under production; a few units are already operational with Indian Army.

- So, IA's combat helicopter fleet will consist of 60 x Rudra, 114 x LCH and 36 x Apache (proposed).

- Forget Apaches for the moment but between Rudra and LCH, a capability will be added which has otherwise not existed before and represents a very potent firepower to execute multiple tasks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 03 Aug 2019 12:46

All 60 Rudra to IA and 16 Rudra to IAF have been built and latest lot of 40 ALH to IA 19 have been built and 3 delivered as per latest news report. Of these 40 nos 18 are Rudra.

IA total order of Rudra is 78nos and IAF 16 nos for a total of 94 nos.

IA total order for ALH is 185 nos of which 78 are Rudra and 107nos are Dhruv of which 5 nos have crashed.

IAF order is of 76 ALH of which 16 are Rudra and 60 are Dhruv of which 3 have crashed.

Only 21 nos ALH for IA are to be built.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 03 Aug 2019 12:57

HAL test pilot in an interview have put the LCH requirement for IA at 97 nos and for IAF at 65nos.

It seems for IA Rudra has been increased to 78 nos and LCH decreased to 97 nos from 114 nos for a total of 175 nos.

For IA will have 7 attack helicopter units of Rudra+ 9 attack helicopter units of LCH and in future 3 attack helicopter units of Apache for a total of 19 attack helicopter units.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 03 Aug 2019 13:42

sankum wrote:HAL test pilot in an interview have put the LCH requirement for IA at 97 nos and for IAF at 65nos.

It seems for IA Rudra has been increased to 78 nos and LCH decreased to 97 nos from 114 nos for a total of 175 nos.

For IA will have 7 attack helicopter units of Rudra+ 9 attack helicopter units of LCH and in future 3 attack helicopter units of Apache for a total of 19 attack helicopter units.


Thank you for very informative posts. Can I use the data on Twitter and some other analysis? With due credits, of course.

19 Attack Helicopter Units for IA is phenomenal firepower. And from your data, IA seems to have fallen in love with Rudra. What a great asset it will be in mountains!

Also, 14 Corps HQ and 19 Attack Helicopter units means some will have multiple assets. Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) seems a perfect candidate for one.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 03 Aug 2019 13:48

Feel free to use the data. I don't need any credit .All are open source data. Only thing is I jot it down in my notebook to get the overall picture from different sources.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 03 Aug 2019 16:05

Extremely heartening news about the LCH and Tejas Mk-1 A.The no. of LCHs to be built will be a game-changer in any ground war with either foe.What has to be pursued though is a high level of annual production, remembering that we have other programmes like the KA-226 LUH also in the pipeline.If the decision is also made for the naval utility and heaviet ASW helos, both exceeding 100 units, with Dhruv/ Rudra also chugging along,local helicopter manufacturing needs to be around 40-50 +/yr.
requiring perhaps another plant.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 04 Aug 2019 20:27

rohitvats wrote:
sankum wrote:HAL test pilot in an interview have put the LCH requirement for IA at 97 nos and for IAF at 65nos.

It seems for IA Rudra has been increased to 78 nos and LCH decreased to 97 nos from 114 nos for a total of 175 nos.

For IA will have 7 attack helicopter units of Rudra+ 9 attack helicopter units of LCH and in future 3 attack helicopter units of Apache for a total of 19 attack helicopter units.


Thank you for very informative posts. Can I use the data on Twitter and some other analysis? With due credits, of course.

19 Attack Helicopter Units for IA is phenomenal firepower. And from your data, IA seems to have fallen in love with Rudra. What a great asset it will be in mountains!

Also, 14 Corps HQ and 19 Attack Helicopter units means some will have multiple assets. Mountain Strike Corps (MSC) seems a perfect candidate for one.


Rohit,

if we believe Col Shukla Army will have 3 squadrons of apaches. i have not read abt this order any where else.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2019/07/ ... ttack.html

Additionally, the army intends to raise three Apache squadrons, one for each of the mechanised strike corps: Mathura-based 1 Corps, Ambala-based 2 Corps and Bhopal-based 21 Corps. In addition to the six Apaches already on order, the army is likely to place another order on Boeing for about thirty more.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Barath » 05 Aug 2019 16:03

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 529680.cms

The idea : An indigenous development of IMRH (Indian Multi Role helicopter) in 12 ton class to replace Mi8/Mi17 both globally and in India. ( 550 indian helicopters need projected). And with a naval variant. Last brought up as concept in 2017 Aero India. Once financial approvals are submitted and actually approved for the development, the first helicopter could make it to the skies for testing within two years.

I think NMRH may cannibalize some of these needs. Not sure how much support this article "floater" actually has.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 06 Aug 2019 08:15

V.ambitious.If it is to succeed it must have v.stringent timelines and we must source a suitable engibe first.Otherwise one will get stuck in the doldrums like the LCA.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 09 Aug 2019 03:38

Second batch of IAF Apache helicopters arrives in India


A second batch of four Boeing 'AH-64E(I)' Apache Guardian helicopters for the Indian Air Force (IAF) arrived at the Hindon Air Force Station (AFS) on the outskirts of New Delhi on 30 July.

A Boeing spokesperson told Jane's on 7 August that the four twin-engined rotorcraft, which are part of a USD2.02 billion order placed by the service for 22 of these platforms in 2015, were flown from the United States to India aboard an Antonov An-124 'Condor' strategic airlifter and have joined an equal number of Apache Guardians that were similarly delivered to the same location on 27 July.

Boeing said all eight platforms were delivered a few weeks before schedule, adding that delivery of the remaining 14 Apache Guardians is scheduled to be completed by 2020.

Official IAF sources said the delivered Apaches are being assembled and flight-tested at Hindon AFS before being officially handed over to the IAF by the end of August.


Thereafter, the IAF is expected to fly the aircraft to Pathankot AFS, which is located close to India's border with Pakistan, for their formal induction into the service in early September.

Senior IAF officers said that a squadron of 10 Apache helicopters will be based at Pathankot, while a second squadron is expected to be stationed in northeastern India, close to the country's disputed border with China.

The remaining two Apaches will be held as reserves in the event of accidents or combat losses, they added.

India ordered the Apaches in a deal that combined a Direct Commercial Sales (DCS) with Boeing and a Foreign Military Sales (FMS) agreement with the US government.

The DCS part of the procurement includes the platforms (without engines and sensors), logistical support, spares, and after-sales service.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 09 Aug 2019 04:30

I like the idea of 30 more Apaches!

It was supposed t be 6+24.
Glad additional 6 would be bought.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 10 Aug 2019 02:42

30 more Apaches to be used where?

I hope they use it on the eastern front and ensure that these beasts are able to keep up ops and tempo at those heights. I seriously doubt these are going to be effective at all on those borders without taking heavy damage. LCH is designed for ops on heights.

Chaiwallahs say IAFs plans are grander than 30 I am afraid. :((

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 12 Aug 2019 03:29

^^^
If there are more Apaches, then those would be going to the IA.

The GoI (MMS & Anthony term) already mandated that the attack helicopters will be with the IA going forward in alignment with the armies world-over. IA won that argument.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Aug 2019 04:48

Very unwise to buy 30 more apaches for approx 3 billion- should order 150 LCH and 150 Rudra instead. Unless we’re saying on BRF now that LCH is not a capable machine!w

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sid » 13 Aug 2019 09:00

Vivek K wrote:Very unwise to buy 30 more apaches for approx 3 billion- should order 150 LCH and 150 Rudra instead. Unless we’re saying on BRF now that LCH is not a capable machine!w


LCH and Apache are different class of attack helis. GOI has been very supportive of HAL Heli division, and you can expect 150 LCH on order book. LCH is more in class of super cobra.

Even US buys stuff which is best in the market, with their MIC breathing down Pentagon’s neck.

Lets be be realistic and not mix operational capabilities with concern for local products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Aug 2019 12:44

^^^^^Wow!! Pray explain what class the two belong to - the Mercedes class and the maruti class?

A fool and his money are easily parted. So far MOD has been easily fooled.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 13 Aug 2019 13:27

What does Apache bring that lch can’t?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rkhanna » 13 Aug 2019 16:49

Cybaru wrote:What does Apache bring that lch can’t?


Ordinance, Payload, Networking capability (to both fly and take cues from UAVs), Longbow Radar -

From what I have understood (speaking to IA folks) the "grand plan" is for the Apache to lead composite rotary packages of LCH and Rudra's with each one playing a role with the Apache as the QB.

In the mountains the LCH will be the primary CAS and offensive punch of the Infantry.

its not a mercedes vs analogy. Its a TANK vs LSV anology.

So far MOD has been easily fooled.


Army had no role to play?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Aug 2019 20:59

rkhanna wrote:
Cybaru wrote:What does Apache bring that lch can’t?


Ordinance, Payload, Networking capability (to both fly and take cues from UAVs), Longbow Radar -

From what I have understood (speaking to IA folks) the "grand plan" is for the Apache to lead composite rotary packages of LCH and Rudra's with each one playing a role with the Apache as the QB.

I can check the details but there wouldn’t be significant differences in ordinance and networking capability. Every Apache will not come with a Longbow radar. If the radar is liked, then that is what IAF should be buying for the LCH.

So far MOD has been easily fooled.


rkhanna wrote:Army had no role to play?

I will let the individual answer that as they please. But buying 6 apaches (by IA) is a colossal waste of national resources especially when a homemade “sanction proof” solution is available.


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