Indian Military Helicopters

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Bharadwaj
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 04 Feb 2020 12:55

Writetake/AK reporting that there may be news regarding ioc for the LUH at defexpo. Which makes more ridiculous that the formal process of placing a limited order is yet to even begin.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sum » 04 Feb 2020 13:43

^^ Whatever happened to the LCH? Did the IOC versions join the IAF finally?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 04 Feb 2020 13:57

No it did not.
Rumour mill says IOC will be declared at the Def Expo.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 04 Feb 2020 19:23

Bharadwaj wrote:Writetake/AK reporting that there may be news regarding ioc for the LUH at defexpo. Which makes more ridiculous that the formal process of placing a limited order is yet to even begin.


https://twitter.com/writetake/status/12 ... 80993?s=20 ----> We MIGHT hear some good news on HAL's Light Utility Helicopter getting the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) at Def Expo 2020. The chopper had completed hot and high altitude trials in Sept 2019. LUH had completed hot weather trials at Nagpur in 2018, cold weather trials at Leh in 2019, sea level trials at Chennai in 2018 and at Puducherry in 2019.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 05 Feb 2020 20:58

On Indian Navy and ALH, from ex-CNS Arun Prakash:

Not factual. IN issued LoI for purchase of 120 ALH fr ship ASW/SAR early 1990's provided HAL could install blade-folding kit. Since hyd/elect wz not feasable we settled for manual. After decades we hv clumsy system of unbolting & lifting rotors. Unusable in rough seas or at nite.

On the three blade and tail boom folding, from ex-IN Helicopter Test Pilot (this is an old comment from August 2019):

Pls demo this on a ship rolling & pitching at high seas by night. Sailors have to meet operational tasks; blade folding is not the only evol at sea. Minimal parts/eqpt, winds howling 30-40 kts, CO barking orders to expedite, a crew of 2-3 on deck. Can we get serious please?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Feb 2020 23:07

Completely agreed. But do any of the competitors in the current fray have automatic blade folding capability?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 06 Feb 2020 00:33

IR - that’s same as Arjun’s ground pressure bring lower than T90 but being ruled as Heavy. It isn’t important that the other Helos being considered don’t have rotor folding capability. It is important for ALH doesn’t have it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 06 Feb 2020 01:32

IN and CG have already ordered 32 Dhruv with 3 rotors folded back and one in front for operation from ship adding to 8 ALH in IN and 3 ALH in CG already in service.
Why reject the automatic rotor and tail folding version for a very expensive import.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 06 Feb 2020 03:03

Cybaru wrote:......

Folded image - manual - all backwards.
Image

....


I think a lot of people dont understand the criticality of blade folding requirement. (not singling you out Cyrus)

Let me explain from a layman perspective;

If you ever walk up to a ALH Dhruv, the first thing you realize is that its much bigger in person than it looks in pictures. To fold blades manually you would need to climb up on the chopper somehow, and even so probably need a super human strength to do it.

Imagine a bunch of sailors risking injury and life trying to fold blades manually in bad sea. It doesn't work because the military cannot wait out a storm unlike civilian pilots.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2020 04:17

Aditya G wrote:I think a lot of people dont understand the criticality of blade folding requirement. (not singling you out Cyrus)

Let me explain from a layman perspective;

If you ever walk up to a ALH Dhruv, the first thing you realize is that its much bigger in person than it looks in pictures. To fold blades manually you would need to climb up on the chopper somehow, and even so probably need a super human strength to do it.

Imagine a bunch of sailors risking injury and life trying to fold blades manually in bad sea. It doesn't work because the military cannot wait out a storm unlike civilian pilots.

The same issues will exist for the other competitors (for the current Naval deal) as well. And they don't seem to have automatic blade folding either. So shouldn't all get disqualified then?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby agupta » 06 Feb 2020 05:09

nachiket wrote:
Aditya G wrote:I think a lot of people dont understand the criticality of blade folding requirement. (not singling you out Cyrus)

Let me explain from a layman perspective;

If you ever walk up to a ALH Dhruv, the first thing you realize is that its much bigger in person than it looks in pictures. To fold blades manually you would need to climb up on the chopper somehow, and even so probably need a super human strength to do it.

Imagine a bunch of sailors risking injury and life trying to fold blades manually in bad sea. It doesn't work because the military cannot wait out a storm unlike civilian pilots.

The same issues will exist for the other competitors (for the current Naval deal) as well. And they don't seem to have automatic blade folding either. So shouldn't all get disqualified then?



The charitable explanation is that

1. Some of those competitors have mastered the technology and implemented on other products - even if the variant on offer so far does not have it.

2. If no to #1, then some of those competitors have more technical credibility than HAL that they can. In other words, right now HAL is the only player who got conditional orders, and > 10 years of time, and R&D investments to make this work and has (a) either failed or (b) come up with a half-assed solution not acceptable to the customer and continued to insist that it is enough.

The true touchstone will be if the requirements continue to insist on having that capability. If they get diluted, then indeed, the CT about there being black in the lentils will be true...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2020 06:08

If everything is based on reputation and proven capability, then we should shut all RnD shops and do license manufacture only.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 06 Feb 2020 06:11

Why even that? Just buy off the shelf. For eternity.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2020 06:42

LUH has attained IOC!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 06 Feb 2020 08:36

Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!


This is a great news. Hopefully armed forces places order as early as possible.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 06 Feb 2020 10:37

Indranil wrote:If everything is based on reputation and proven capability, then we should shut all RnD shops and do license manufacture only.

You mean apply polish to Foreign built systems, correct?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 06 Feb 2020 10:40

Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!


Great news! Now we quickly need to move onto the heavy category -- IMRH. Hopefully in the IMRH programme there should be a naval version built from ground up like the TEDBF. With auto folding rotor, auto folding beach umbrella and all other types of auto foldables. The Chinese have started rolling out copyhawks like rabbits and here we have ordered only 24 of the real hawks. There should not be any further orders after the 24 and the rest of the requirements should be met by the IMRNH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 06 Feb 2020 11:52

Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!


Do we have any more milestones to achieve OR production can begin ? I hope orders for LUH is placed before Ka226T.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2020 11:55

Production can begin. But when will the govt. Actually place orders. God only knows. Mk1A orders awaited, LCH orders awaited and now LUH. Let's see.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 06 Feb 2020 13:07

Seems they are waiting for finances to get freed post purchase of Apache and Chinooks therefore delaying Indian helicopter programs for staggered purchase.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 06 Feb 2020 20:25

sankum wrote:Seems they are waiting for finances to get freed post purchase of Apache and Chinooks therefore delaying Indian helicopter programs for staggered purchase.


It seems money is always made available for imports first and indigenous product contract suffers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby agupta » 07 Feb 2020 00:36

Indranil wrote:If everything is based on reputation and proven capability, then we should shut all RnD shops and do license manufacture only.



For the first time, of course not.

n00 orders, 10+ yrs of patience after 1st operational unit not sufficient to develop a system and balance out the odds ? In my mind, it is... if it takes that long and you still don't succeed in what YOU said you could do decades ago...then you become fair game.

I am very curious though what the real status or issues are... multiple OEMs have the technology - perhaps licensing an option ? HAL is not explicitly coming out and saying definitively that they DO or WILL have auto-systems or not... lukewarm discussions on what's been done in the past (clearly not enough for IN)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ManuJ » 07 Feb 2020 01:43

Any updates on LCH?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 07 Feb 2020 17:06

IOC is now faarmal for LUH

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD

Image


Hal has delivered the goods.Now can we at least see the AON processed?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 07 Feb 2020 17:41

ManuJ wrote:Any updates on LCH?


Seems like it fell from the sights as everyone wants to have imported super muscle wala Rambo :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2020 18:46

IOC for LUH and yet we will be spending $4B on the Ka226:

https://mobile.twitter.com/CorpDefence/status/1225408718348541952


Defence corp
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First batch of Made-in-India Kamov choppers to be rolled out from Tumkur in the next 5 years


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2020 19:48

I guess the Kamov will be MII since it will be made by HAL as well. We will pay for ToT for a small helo when we have the LUH.

Maybe we need a light utility helo with twin engines that cannot be filled by the Dhruv? Maybe we need co-axial?

Someone explain. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning.

https://mobile.twitter.com/sash2904/status/1224316080706875392

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India to buy 200 Kamov 226T copters from Russia at US $ 4 Billion including transfer of technology (Rs 28,000 crores).
60 will come in fly away condition & 140 to be 'Made in India' at HAL.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 07 Feb 2020 20:19

chola wrote:IOC for LUH and yet we will be spending $4B on the Ka226:

https://mobile.twitter.com/CorpDefence/status/1225408718348541952


Defence corp
@CorpDefence
First batch of Made-in-India Kamov choppers to be rolled out from Tumkur in the next 5 years



Most importantly the Russians have reneged from the initial agreement of providing TOT for local production from 80% parts to 62%. We should junk this purchase and go for our own products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Feb 2020 20:36

^^^ We really should. If it were a small purchase for the co-axial feature then I can understand. But a $4B project with 200 aircraft is a major investment and something that can set maintenance and logistical patterns in our armed forces for years to come that can only take away from the local products. $4B is what our P-15B program cost! We have 280 Dhruvs after nearly three decades of a very successful program IMHO and suddenly we will buy 200 of this helo when we already have a good domestic track record in helo AND products readily available?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 07 Feb 2020 22:22

Tells you why India will never be an industrial power!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 07 Feb 2020 22:57

Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!

What is remaining for FOC? Its a utility helicopter, so no weapons trials. I always thought LUH and LCH will directly move to FOC.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 07 Feb 2020 23:28

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 35168?s=20 ---> The indigenous Light Utility Helicopter, developed by HAL, received its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) on 07 Feb 2020, at Def Expo 2020 by Ministry of Defence. This achievement sets stage for operational induction, as per orders, into the Indian Army and Indian Air Force.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 08 Feb 2020 03:16

tsarkar wrote:
Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!

What is remaining for FOC? Its a utility helicopter, so no weapons trials. I always thought LUH and LCH will directly move to FOC.


Sir why do you want to deny our PSU babus the opportunity for a Photo-Op and Press Conference for announcing the FOC during the next or next after next DefExpo?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 08 Feb 2020 03:28

chola wrote:Someone explain. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning.



Russia is probably been paid for classified tech transfers. I guess for SSBN.

Russia must have asked for buying by India, as it reduces unit cost and most importantly gives a major flip for Russian exports.. Su30, T90 etc..

Same is probably the case with S400. These deals are G2G deals coming directly from the big office.

4B+5B: 9B of deals with Russia for heli & S400. Not to mention the frigate deal.. must have wreck our budget for a while now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby agupta » 08 Feb 2020 03:59

^^^ my guess as well...a quid-pro-quo for something/somewhere. otherwise head scratching.

That said, there's yet room to make lemonade here. I hope the Mig (and even the Su-57) experiences are drawing attention in the Russian planners that their aerospace majors too need partners, markets and scale - on the development side (not just product use). If HAL and Kamov can use this to become long term partners, there's value exchanges to be had. For HAL, from something as small as "Auto blade folding" to future coaxial rotor and GBX technologies will be valuable and more importantly very expensive to replicate in-house from scratch.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2020 04:06

nam wrote:
chola wrote:Someone explain. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning.



Russia is probably been paid for classified tech transfers. I guess for SSBN.

Russia must have asked for buying by India, as it reduces unit cost and most importantly gives a major flip for Russian exports.. Su30, T90 etc..

Same is probably the case with S400. These deals are G2G deals coming directly from the big office.

4B+5B: 9B of deals with Russia for heli & S400. Not to mention the frigate deal.. must have wreck our budget for a while now.

If Russians need to be paid for something, GoI can pay them in cash. I'm sure they won't mind.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 08 Feb 2020 04:16

nam wrote:
chola wrote:Someone explain. I can't wrap my head around the reasoning.



Russia is probably been paid for classified tech transfers. I guess for SSBN.

Russia must have asked for buying by India, as it reduces unit cost and most importantly gives a major flip for Russian exports.. Su30, T90 etc..

Same is probably the case with S400. These deals are G2G deals coming directly from the big office.

4B+5B: 9B of deals with Russia for heli & S400. Not to mention the frigate deal.. must have wreck our budget for a while now.


Namji, I think we have already rewarded the Russians by agreeing to spend $3B for leasing a second Akula. That is on top of the $1B for Chakra. Remember those are leases not transfer of ownership. Yes, SSN isn't something you just get anywhere so I appreciate the cost. But I think we have paid above and beyond our appreciation for their help in our nuke program with the leases. Especially when the navy can't even move forward with IAC2 because of budget concerns from MoD.

The Ka226 seems a bad deal for real MII all around. One, we lose $4B in funding to a phoren product. Two, HAL will be dedicating assembly lines and people to this phoren screwdrivergiri instead of the homegrown helos. And three, the large order will continue to entrench phoren gear in our armed forces. The way I see it, is this thing will steal money, industrial capacity and human resource away from the LUH and the Indian helo industry in general.

My gawd, if you really think about it we are funding and resourcing a phoren competitor against our own project. It makes no sense.
Last edited by chola on 08 Feb 2020 04:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 08 Feb 2020 04:22

Vips wrote:
tsarkar wrote:What is remaining for FOC? Its a utility helicopter, so no weapons trials. I always thought LUH and LCH will directly move to FOC.


Sir why do you want to deny our PSU babus the opportunity for a Photo-Op and Press Conference for announcing the FOC during the next or next after next DefExpo?

Common mate. Did you not hear Wing Co Unni's interview? Such flippancy about a prog that has actually done well!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2020 05:18

Indranil wrote:LUH has attained IOC!!!


We can now start to wait for the actual orders to be placed. Given how glacially the MoD and MoF act, and the budget constraints placed by this govt., I get the feeling this wait will be long.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2020 05:55

Kartik wrote:We can now start to wait for the actual orders to be placed. Given how glacially the MoD and MoF act, and the budget constraints placed by this govt., I get the feeling this wait will be long.

Exactly why the KA-226 deal is an even more terrible idea. If we have a limited budget, better to spend it on an indigenous product if one is available. Or else, the govt. should stop talking about Make in India.


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