Indian Military Helicopters

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 04 Mar 2020 06:53

Rona dhona today is far better than getting your behind whupped in war! We have just seen a colossal waste of limited resources for 6 helos. This paltry number cannot change the course of a war or a battle. But the larger numbers of LCH could make an impact. But hey how does it matter! Have chai biscottis or whatever!!

JTull
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 04 Mar 2020 15:51

HAL is first to plant stories in the media if things aren't going it's way. They're mum on LCH and Tejas Mk1A. That tells you everything.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 12:21

That tells you that they have to take term loans for all R&D projects. They get advantage of captive customer. But they also pay the price when its customers are delinquent in paying their dues.

There is literally no money in HAL's coffers. The sad part is that there is no end in sight. Not in this year. Govt's is in major tangi.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 23:02

Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!

A Deshmukh
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby A Deshmukh » 05 Mar 2020 23:08

Didn't RM just open a new production line for LCH with capacity of 30 units/pa.
I am sure there will be orders in 3-digits.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 05 Mar 2020 23:15

Where are the orders?!!!! Couldn't he have placed an order for LCH before the orders for Apaches?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 05 Mar 2020 23:20


kit
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kit » 05 Mar 2020 23:49

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!


The arms sales are not always about technology and material acquisition., after all 6 apaches are a drop in the ocean when compared to requirements. Even all the "indigenous equipment" have a significant amount of critical foreign technology. Not everything can be built nor is it cost effective. It all boils down to a mix of indian and foreign military equipment in various percentages. , and increasingly so as India tries to integrate into the global military supply chains.

There does seem to be more to it than seeming piece meal orders.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Mar 2020 01:03

Actual actions reflect actual priorities. If pleasing geopolitics is higher priority, 6 Apaches become higher priority. If indigenous manufacturing is the priority then LCH orders would precede Apache orders, C295W orders would precede Rafale orders, ...

Nikhil T
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nikhil T » 06 Mar 2020 03:29

Agreed Indranil sir on all points. This line of reasoning that “there must be something wrong with the product” is often the first defence whenever an injustice against an indigenous product comes up. If that line of reasoning is proven wrong, then the second is “it must be for secret geo political benefits like UNSC veto or TSP condemnation etc etc”. The script remains the same.

For LCH, the cost was Rs 231 crore as of early 2018. That’s compared to Rs 1,106 crore per Apache we’re paying. That’s 4.7 LCH per Apache - make it 3.5 after accounting for usual excuses like bare bones vs. fully loaded weaponry and PBL contracts. HAL has promised to reduce the price even more once orders flow in, by substituting costly imported components such as FCS (indigenous FCS is flying in test beds already btw). IAF is already on record saying LCH is great and has tested weapons - pray what’re we waiting for?

Both Kadi Ninda and Nirmala Sitharaman have been big talkers. LCH found itself in the famous list of 1 lakh crore confirmed and in pipeline orders for HAL. No word on when they would ever be signed. Meanwhile let’s fight over where Apaches should live - IAF or IA.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VinodTK » 06 Mar 2020 03:51

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion! I don't know what HAL is asking for each LCH. But I can't imagine it being more thean $50 million. That would buy more than 20 LCHs for 1 billion. Bhai, aisa kya ukhaad leti hai 6 Apache?!! Please don't say Apaches can communicate with the rest of the fleet. THEY CAN'T. PERIOD. If they have to, all the other assets have to brought up to communicate using the links used by Apache.

I have no sympathy but contempt for Rajnath Singhji. After PArrikarji, I have progressive just lost confidence in this govt. to support desi research and development. They say the right things, but when it comes to doing, they have been found wanting. Where is the budget to do anything? Smile, intent etc. don't matter to me. Do the things that matter!

And if some of you feel that something is wrong with LCH, just state the technical difficulty that LCH is facing. I would be happy to answer. Raghuk is here. Hari Nair sir is here. Deejay is here. Don't just say "something must be wrong" because you feel like saying it!

+++100%

If a soon to be $5T economy cannot afford the basic needs for the armed farces what can it afford
It must be a genetic thing, throughout history of India you can see Indians were and are always under prepared to defend and scare any invader

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 11 Mar 2020 05:54

Vips wrote:


Panelists were excited by IMRH. Key points from the discussion:

IMRH prototype to be rolled out by 2023
IMRH serial production could start by 2027
Budgetary support asked for - Rs 9,600 crores
Shall be real force multiplier in plains and lower altitudes.

Outside of IMRH, there was unqualified praise for ALH, saying that it is perhaps the best Military Helicopter India has had and its real capabilities come into play at higher altitudes, 19,000 ft +.

nachiket
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 11 Mar 2020 05:57

Indranil, has the ATGM integration on LCH (Pars-LR? Helina?) been completed? I am getting a sinking feeling that someone is soon going to come up with the bright idea of asking for the Hellfire to be integrated with the LCH, delaying (or derailing) the whole program even more.

Suresh S
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Suresh S » 11 Mar 2020 06:36

I have the same feeling when u see such a large amount being paid for a mere 6 helicopters and indigenous programs are drip fed. But I think this is ghoonsh for the orange man so that some of those factories in china can be relocated to India. If that is even partially successful that will more than make up for this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 14 Mar 2020 08:35

nachiket wrote:Indranil, has the ATGM integration on LCH (Pars-LR? Helina?) been completed? I am getting a sinking feeling that someone is soon going to come up with the bright idea of asking for the Hellfire to be integrated with the LCH, delaying (or derailing) the whole program even more.

That would complete its arsenal.

As far as the ALH-Rudra goes, HELINA integration must be pretty close to completion. First launches were done in 2012. Quite a few developmental and user trials since then.
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Check out what it says on DRDO website.

DRDO: HELINA
HELINA (Helicopter based NAG) is a third generation fire and forget class anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) system mounted on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The system has all weather day and night capability and can defeat battle tanks with conventional armour as well as explosive reactive armour. The HELINA missile can engage targets both in direct hit mode as well as top attack mode. HELINA Weapon Systems is being inducted into the Indian Army (IA). A variant of HELINA Weapon System called DHRUVASTRA is being inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).


HELINA user trials slated to complete this year 2020.

INTERVIEW | Youngsters can power India into a defence technology leader: Dr Satheesh Reddy
February 16, 2020
...

Missile Matters

In the last one year we saw multiple success on the missile front. Various trials of Astra, quick reaction surface to air missile (QRSAM ), Nag and Pinaka were successfully completed.

This year the user trials of HELINA missile and man portable anti tank guided missile (MPATGM) will be completed. Development trials of new generation anti radiation missile (NGARM ) will be taken up this year. We are also working on Astra Mk-2 long range air-to-air missile. There are several other missiles that are in the pipeline.

On the weapons front, we have developed the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) in collaboration with Tatas and Bharat Forge. This year the system will undergo user trials. We are also developing the Joint Venture Protective Carbine (JVPC) and smart anti-airfield weapon (SAAW) bomb.

I am confident that SAAW will complete its trials this year and enter into production. There are many other weapons also being developed simultaneously.

...

titash
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby titash » 15 Mar 2020 01:46

srai wrote:
nachiket wrote:Check out what it says on DRDO website.

DRDO: HELINA

HELINA (Helicopter based NAG) is a third generation fire and forget class anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) system mounted on the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). The system has all weather day and night capability and can defeat battle tanks with conventional armour as well as explosive reactive armour. The HELINA missile can engage targets both in direct hit mode as well as top attack mode. HELINA Weapon Systems is being inducted into the Indian Army (IA). A variant of HELINA Weapon System called DHRUVASTRA is being inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF).



The NAG and HELINA are dedicated anti-tank missiles with IR guidance and armor piercing warheads. It's quite possible that the anti-armour mission has been transferred to the IA Aviation Corps' 50+ Rudras and 100+ LCHs; whereas the IAF's missions for it's 15+ Rudras and 60+ LCHs are SEAD, Combat SAR, escorts to SF transports etc. in which case the missiles need to have high explosive warheads with passive AR seekers, MMW seekers, or manual TV guidance etc. Hence Dhruvastra - a variant of HELINA

Just speculating, but makes sense based on the DRDO website...


venkat_r
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby venkat_r » 23 Mar 2020 22:18

Indranil wrote:Doesn't something in you guys die when 1 billion is made ready for 6 Apaches. But no money is made available for 15 LCHs that HAL could be producing from 2 years back ? 1 Billion!!


Yes it does pain to see this attitude towards indigenous products - especially in this case as IMHO army could have been forced to accept just the LCHs only and no Apaches. Sometimes I wonder what would have been if we did not have that option of Apaches.

Having said that, recently I have been binge watching the RSTV episodes and came away overall feeling very good about Modi and the present setup doing the best they could for building local MIC and also making sure that India has the best security available, sometimes we might not understand the push and pulls of those in power, but still have high degree of confidence that the indigenous systems would eventually win out. But also agree that the shift should not be this tough and painful. It is very disheartening and demotivating to the hardworking people in the institutions who build competitive products with meager resources only to be treated as step children.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 30 Mar 2020 20:32

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/03 ... -helo.html
The Rudras are being purchased in healthy numbers by the IAF (16) and Army (78),

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 31 Mar 2020 05:41


Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 01 Apr 2020 03:34

Mogambo khush hua! What a beauty!!

ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 01 Apr 2020 11:37

IR, I have been in this forum since beginning and have been a proponent for strong military.
No it does not hurt me when the Apaches which are needed at this time.
And hope six more are bought to give a punch to the strike corps.

And along with it LCH will be ordered now that it cleared all the trials.

basant
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 04 Apr 2020 11:56

Not sure where to post. Turn up the volume!


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 04 Apr 2020 19:08

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