Indian Military Helicopters

[sankum]

I want to ask that MTOW of LUH is 3117kg.
But in external stores carried it is 3600 kg. I have read somewhere.
Anyone who can clarify?

[Prasad]

Max allup weight is 3150kg per brochure. And useful load is 950kg.
2 stretchers deejay.

[sankum]

In overload condition when external jettisionable load of 1000 kg is carried MTOW is 3600kg.

[deejay]

Max allup weight is 3150kg per brochure. And useful load is 950kg.
2 stretchers deejay.

Thank You. Any pictures? or schematic arrangements of seats with and without stretchers?

[sankum]

LUH 2013 Brochure

Seating arrangement only in digital mockup.

[deejay]

LUH 2013 Brochure

Seating arrangement only in digital mockup.

Thank You Sankum ji. One thing is clear, the helicopter has more room and equal if not better specs than EC 130 B4, it closest competitor. It will be great machine in the Civil space too.

https://twitter.com/rotormagic/status/1 ... 8972236800

[tsarkar]

The 2013 brochure contains design specifications, ie, the specifications the developers set out to achieve.

Post IOC and FOC the actual performance specifications are established after certification by CEMILAC for military aircraft and DGCA for civilian aircraft.

Aircraft in real life may or may not match exact design specifications. Possibility of both shortfalls or exceeding design specifications exist.

Its best to wait for FOC and see what actual performance specifications the aircraft has been finally certified for.

[deejay]

The 2013 brochure contains design specifications, ie, the specifications the developers set out to achieve.

Post IOC and FOC the actual performance specifications are established after certification by CEMILAC for military aircraft and DGCA for civilian aircraft.

Aircraft in real life may or may not match exact design specifications. Possibility of both shortfalls or exceeding design specifications exist.

Its best to wait for FOC and see what actual performance specifications the aircraft has been finally certified for.

Absolutely Sir, but baseline parameters won't differ much. In fact I am betting (with myself) that LUH will come out with better specs than mentioned in payload at Sea level and for Service Ceiling. Present specs are deliberately conservative, IMHO.

[KSingh]

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1298982007779635201

First photo just in of an LUH prototype on its current final trial run in Ladakh, seen here at a make-shift forward helipad in northern Ladakh.

It hurts my heart that this beast is being sabotaged by god knows what interests

In any other country it would’ve been given a 400-500 unit order by now but instead it has been given less than half a commitment as they negotiate for the ka-226 for reasons unknown to everyone but the esteemed leadership.


The IAF is happy with its high altitude performance but the army sent it back for high altitude trails this month and then the real fight begins ( inside MoD), they’ll issue an RFQ and whilst you’d think that departments inside the same govt should be able to hash these things out in a few months if not weeks we have seen with LCA MK1A that this is a half decade long process then they’ll go to DAC who will sanction a limited order (maybe 30 units) of LSP airframes maybe 5 years from now



The limitation here is no longer on the R&D side it’s entirely on the red tape, it’s hard to imagine when all 187 LUH could be in service at this rate, HAL happily will make 30+ a year (60+ is the capacity of Temkur but I doubt they’ll ramp up to that for anything less than 300 units). Maybe 12 years from now ?

[Hari Nair]

LUH 2013 Brochure

Seating arrangement only in digital mockup.

So, 'Sankum' Saab, could we post a seating diagram Notarised by a High Court Attorney to satisfy the (Imperial) request?

[Hari Nair]

I want to ask that MTOW of LUH is 3117kg.
But in external stores carried it is 3600 kg. I have read somewhere.
Anyone who can clarify?

And why pray, should we 'clarify', 'Sankum' Saab? Could you please elucidate? and whom do you you represent?

[Hari Nair]

...
The IAF is happy with its high altitude performance but the army sent it back for high altitude trails this month ....

K Singh Saab, we need to have patience. If a Service asks for a demo (repeat - whatever), the exercise needs to be done - its all in the greater good. We are not like our western or northern neighbours - the process of flight testing here is rigorous and thorough.

[sankum]

Sorry Hari Nair sahib I am taking your comments as a satire on me . No problem I am just a ordinary Indian citizen asking questions troubling me. Otherwise yoy never answer my questions. At least you responded. I am previlaged that a distinguished TP has responded. I know that you will not answer everything. That's your right.

[Rakesh]

K Singh Saab, we need to have patience. If a Service asks for a demo (repeat - whatever), the exercise needs to be done - its all in the greater good. We are not like our western or northern neighbours - the process of flight testing here is rigorous and thorough.

Dear Sir, our western neighbour does not do any testing. Our eastern neighbour does all the testing for them. They just paint it in green paint and call it indigenous.

[Hari Nair]

Sorry Hari Nair sahib I am taking your comments as a satire on me . No problem I am just a ordinary Indian citizen asking questions troubling me. Otherwise yoy never answer my questions. At least you responded. I am previlaged that a distinguished TP has responded. I know that you will not answer everything. That's your right.

Sankum Saab, its just that the LUH, even though it has (primarily) "only" a utility role, it is a military prototype. It is undergoing field trials which are critical. While we may wish to know the minutiae - the exact figures, status, etc; however this type of information is not freely tossed around. In fact there was an occasion when a serving armed forces officer (not involved in the LCH flight testing) had asked us for very specific details of the LCH for an in-house paper he was writing, certain details were not provided. He went off in a huff, but then that's how the system works, worldwide.

For example - try and get some very specific info of say - the A/MH-6 Little Bird, which essentially is an armed & modified version of the OH-6 and you are likely to be disappointed. One may very well say, what's the big deal to all that secrecy - its just a small helicopter. But then, some info is classified for whatever reasons and that's how the system works.

You mentioned unanswered Qs - some of the queries posted here by various members just cannot be answered for very obvious reasons - stuff like status of weapon integration, exact figures, etc.

In fact, the screws have been formally tightened in-house here for quite some time - and that's perhaps the reason we do not see 'unauthorized' mobile phone pictures of aircraft, that pic of the drop-tank of the LCH posted some time back notwithstanding!

Surprisingly, the best source of information of course, is during airshows when all the 'open' info is proudly posted on placards in front of aircraft, including stuff that may be hard to find during other times!

My apologies if I came across earlier as overly sarcastic - I hope I have now been to get my point-of-view across.

[Hari Nair]

K Singh Saab, we need to have patience. If a Service asks for a demo (repeat - whatever), the exercise needs to be done - its all in the greater good. We are not like our western or northern neighbours - the process of flight testing here is rigorous and thorough.

Dear Sir, our western neighbour does not do any testing. Our eastern neighbour does all the testing for them. They just paint it in green paint and call it indigenous.

Our western neighbour have some exchange arrangements with the Great Hans- I had met a senior PAF Gp Capt TP in an airshow in Al Ain (UAE) in 2005, who had flown in their "joint" or "collaborative" fighter (JF-17?) programme.

[deejay]

Sorry Hari Nair sahib I am taking your comments as a satire on me . No problem I am just a ordinary Indian citizen asking questions troubling me. Otherwise yoy never answer my questions. At least you responded. I am previlaged that a distinguished TP has responded. I know that you will not answer everything. That's your right.

Sankum Saab, its just that the LUH, even though it has (primarily) "only" a utility role, it is a military prototype. It is undergoing field trials which are critical. While we may wish to know the minutiae - the exact figures, status, etc; however this type of information is not freely tossed around. In fact there was an occasion when a serving armed forces officer (not involved in the LCH flight testing) had asked us for very specific details of the LCH for an in-house paper he was writing, certain details were not provided. He went off in a huff, but then that's how the system works, worldwide.

For example - try and get some very specific info of say - the A/MH-6 Little Bird, which essentially is an armed & modified version of the OH-6 and you are likely to be disappointed. One may very well say, what's the big deal to all that secrecy - its just a small helicopter. But then, some info is classified for whatever reasons and that's how the system works.

You mentioned unanswered Qs - some of the queries posted here by various members just cannot be answered for very obvious reasons - stuff like status of weapon integration, exact figures, etc.

In fact, the screws have been formally tightened in-house here for quite some time - and that's perhaps the reason we do not see 'unauthorized' mobile phone pictures of aircraft, that pic of the drop-tank of the LCH posted some time back notwithstanding!

Surprisingly, the best source of information of course, is during airshows when all the 'open' info is proudly posted on placards in front of aircraft, including stuff that may be hard to find during other times!

My apologies if I came across earlier as overly sarcastic - I hope I have now been to get my point-of-view across.

Thank You for the explanation Sir. I was told on twitter that a civil version is also being certified. Is that correct?

[Hari Nair]

Yes, Deejay, a civil version is indeed in the works.

[sankum]

Thanks, Hari Nair Sir. I understand. In future I will be discrete in asking detailed specifications . Only data that is publically available.

[deejay]

Yes, Deejay, a civil version is indeed in the works.

Thank You Sir.

[KiranC]

Dear Senior Members and Guru's, Greetings
Would you be able to kindly share any updates on the development of the NRUAV.
Any new projects being undertaken or new procurements planned post the Chinese incursions?
Many thanks

[vivek_ahuja]

Disclaimer: the year is 2020 now. I was checking the notes from Chimera to see what Indian military tech predictions from that scenario have materialized and what died on the wine through the years.

Are we still awaiting the order for 15 LCHs to be placed?

At least one prediction from Chimera came true: the idea that HAL had to push forward prototypes of the LCH to combat Chinese ground forces and perform anti-UAV operations from FARPs. That it would be done in emergency conditions. But that story was set in 2014 (and considered imminent at that time)! Six years later we are still pushing prototypes to Ladakh while importing high-cost helicopters by the handful.

Has the IAF even earmarked any helicopter unit to be the first LCH unit? Instructor pilot training started?

What about anti-tank missiles? Has one been decided? Is there any urgency with this program from GOI or IAF?

[sum]

Disclaimer: the year is 2020 now. I was checking the notes from Chimera to see what Indian military tech predictions from that scenario have materialized and what died on the wine through the years.

Are we still awaiting the order for 15 LCHs to be placed?

At least one prediction from Chimera came true: the idea that HAL had to push forward prototypes of the LCH to combat Chinese ground forces and perform anti-UAV operations from FARPs. That it would be done in emergency conditions. But that story was set in 2014 (and considered imminent at that time)! Six years later we are still pushing prototypes to Ladakh while importing high-cost helicopters by the handful.

Has the IAF even earmarked any helicopter unit to be the first LCH unit? Instructor pilot training started?

What about anti-tank missiles? Has one been decided? Is there any urgency with this program from GOI or IAF?

Sir,
Given the reality and the known numbers and non-inductions of most of the things you had predicted( AWACs, LCH, missiles, CBGs etc) in your scenarios,How will a current scenario between India and China look in the present day 2020?

[vivek_ahuja]

Given the reality and the known numbers and non-inductions of most of the things you had predicted( AWACs, LCH, missiles, CBGs etc) in your scenarios,How will a current scenario between India and China look in the present day 2020?

All I will say on this is that when Chimera was being posted page-by-page in the scenarios thread, I was often accused of making the Indian military/national-security-infrastructure far too efficient for what it actually is (see some of the reviews of Chimera online). This was at the same time some people on this forum found it sobering and depressing since I tried to keep things as realistic as I could.

Fast forward to 2020 and reality has been even more sobering than the predictions in the book.

You can see my questions on the other threads. I am genuinely surprised how slowly a lot of premier military items have progressed! The LCH is one of those stories. Truly tragic to see how HAL has a fine product ready to go, and here we are allocating limited financial resources to import a handful of Apaches.

We should have been lining up IAF helo squadrons for LCH conversion by now.

[ManuJ]

At least one prediction from Chimera came true: the idea that HAL had to push forward prototypes of the LCH to combat Chinese ground forces and perform anti-UAV operations from FARPs. That it would be done in emergency conditions. But that story was set in 2014 (and considered imminent at that time)! Six years later we are still pushing prototypes to Ladakh while importing high-cost helicopters by the handful.

Your Chimera is the first thing that came to my mind when reading about the LCH deployment. Funny how fact has a way of following fiction.

[Vivek K]

The most ludicrous purchase is IA buying "6" apaches!! 6! It could have easily paid for the 15 unfinished LCHs and still had some change left over.

[vivek_ahuja]

The most ludicrous purchase is IA buying "6" apaches!! 6! It could have easily paid for the 15 unfinished LCHs and still had some change left over.

And that would have been an entire squadron of LCHs with money left over for weapons, maintenance and attrition reserves.

What attrition reserves are built into six airframes for a terrain as expansive as Ladakh and Tibet?

[deejay]

Disclaimer: the year is 2020 now. I was checking the notes from Chimera to see what Indian military tech predictions from that scenario have materialized and what died on the wine through the years.

Are we still awaiting the order for 15 LCHs to be placed?

At least one prediction from Chimera came true: the idea that HAL had to push forward prototypes of the LCH to combat Chinese ground forces and perform anti-UAV operations from FARPs. That it would be done in emergency conditions. But that story was set in 2014 (and considered imminent at that time)! Six years later we are still pushing prototypes to Ladakh while importing high-cost helicopters by the handful.

Has the IAF even earmarked any helicopter unit to be the first LCH unit? Instructor pilot training started?

What about anti-tank missiles? Has one been decided? Is there any urgency with this program from GOI or IAF?

IAF, I am sure has sent the proposal. It for the GOI to okay earmarking of units for LCH. As of now I am not aware of any number plated HU. It will have to be a new raising unless we convert some Chetak, ALH< Mi 17 unit to LCH which I don't think is a good idea. Most probably LCH unit will be a new unit or sqn. In either case its not upto IAF to earmark unless cleared.

[Cyrano]

The most ludicrous purchase is IA buying "6" apaches!! 6! It could have easily paid for the 15 unfinished LCHs and still had some change left over.

Not every Mil H/W buy is made SOLELY on operational merit. Modi wanted to allow Trump's need to be seen as a business man by making these sundry purchases. And in Trump's own words, Modi is a hard negotiator. There could have been several things we got for the money besides the 6 apaches. Some non mil stuff like faster FDA approvals and Mil stuff like better Sat imagery, sharing intel, eavesdropping into PLA comms could have been discussed. Needless to say how invaluable they have proven today.

[Philip]

Vivek,an air show ago,at the show, a chappie in charge told me he'd watched our ATGM to be fitted to the bird miss the target in trials.It had previously done the same. Pressure from our side kept out a firang ATGM which was perfect for our helos. The DPSU pressure to get their half-baked products inhas been why the forces' modernisation is so woefully behind time. The mantra of make only in India has to have rock solid timelines,otherwise we'll be fighting the next war with eqpt. 2 generations behind.
Imagine still flying MIG-21s,albeit upgraded Bisons a decade ago,some 50 years on!

[sankum]

IA will have fleet of
39 Apache (3 units)
97 LCH (9 units)
78 Rudras (7 units)

While IAF will have a fleet of
22 Apache (2 sq)
65 LCH (6 sq)
16 Rudras (1 sq)

[pushkar.bhat]

IA will have fleet of
39 Apache (3 units)
97 LCH (9 units)
78 Rudras (7 units)

While IAF will have a fleet of
22 Apache (2 sq)
65 LCH (6 sq)
16 Rudras (1 sq)

Where will these Army Av Corp Apaches (39 Nos Qty) come from ?

[KSingh]

IA will have fleet of
39 Apache (3 units)
97 LCH (9 units)
78 Rudras (7 units)

While IAF will have a fleet of
22 Apache (2 sq)
65 LCH (6 sq)
16 Rudras (1 sq)

Rudra numbers for IA and IAF will be substantially higher than this. Afaik the IA has over 80 Rudras in order as of now with 3-4 HUs already stood up

[KSingh]

IA will have fleet of
39 Apache (3 units)
97 LCH (9 units)
78 Rudras (7 units)

While IAF will have a fleet of
22 Apache (2 sq)
65 LCH (6 sq)
16 Rudras (1 sq)

Where will these Army Av Corp Apaches (39 Nos Qty) come from ?

The army’s plan has always been to have 1 AH-64 squadron/unit Of 13 birds with each of the 3 strike corps, 3*13=39

The MoD’s consent for the army to place the orders for 6 AH-64Es (deliveries commencing 2023/4) is proof this plan is going ahead. All 39 won’t be around before the end of the 2020s though

[pushkar.bhat]

I thought that the plan to give 13 birds to each strike corp was not approved and the birds went to the Air Force. If we are talking another 10 years our own LCH may have matured to the point when we don't need the Apache. Also the state of the Na-pakis who know if they will remain a threat 10 years from now. China cannot keep propping them for ever.

[Vivek K]

The most ludicrous purchase is IA buying "6" apaches!! 6! It could have easily paid for the 15 unfinished LCHs and still had some change left over.

Not every Mil H/W buy is made SOLELY on operational merit. Modi wanted to allow Trump's need to be seen as a business man by making these sundry purchases. And in Trump's own words, ....

You can never buy friendship with money - look at Russia - JF-17 flies on Russian engines, PAF has purchased IL 78s and Mi17s.
France sells aircraft (spares only now for Mirage 3 and 5s) and Augusta sub (with licensed production in Pak). So if purchase of C-17s, P-8s, and IAF Apaches did not get you what you want - do you think that mere 6 more Apaches would get you a large deal?

Contact me I have a bridge in Atlanta that I can sell you.

[Mort Walker]

Vivek,

The total purchase of Apaches was 22 and all have been delivered July 2020 to the IAF. The IA gets 6 additional, but I agree the LCHs should have been ordered in numbers.

[Mort Walker]

I thought that the plan to give 13 birds to each strike corp was not approved and the birds went to the Air Force. If we are talking another 10 years our own LCH may have matured to the point when we don't need the Apache. Also the state of the Na-pakis who know if they will remain a threat 10 years from now. China cannot keep propping them for ever.

A Biden administration will turn the tap on again for TSP for the sake of them avoid getting into the "Chinese orbit". In return, US intelligence will get access to whatever Chinese mil-tech TSP has.

[pushkar.bhat]

I will stick to LCH on this thread sir. Will avoid discussing US elections here.

[Mort Walker]

I will stick to LCH on this thread sir. Will avoid discussing US elections here.

Okay. TSP will be getting transport and attack helos from the US next year. China will not be a concern for them. India's LCH must go into mass production.