Indian Military Helicopters

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
KSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 18 Sep 2020 18:25

tsarkar wrote:
KSingh wrote:India is actually paying billions to be worse off, words fail me.

Did you listen to French Foreign Minister in Ambala saying France will support India's bid for permanent membership for UNSC?

Most deals are QPQ for similar reasons.

The rush to buy Naval Seahawk was such that no competition was held. No one even questioned the G2G deal :D Atleast the Mi-26 competed against the Chinook and Mi-28 against the Apache.

Given that India wont reduce tariffs for fully imported Harley Davidson and Ford Mustang, something gotta give and it was the Seahawks, Apaches and more P-8I to balance the trade imbalance.

All for the greater good. Atleast indigenous Maruti and Royal Enfield aren't disadvantaged against foreign products.

The PM & FM has to balance all decisions. The PM & FM are PM & FM of India and not PM & FM of Defence.


Let’s just assume the QPQ part is correct


1) why KA-226? Why not more 17V5s for the same ($2-3bn)? The IAF was trying to order more batches but that never materialised.

KA-226 was actually not selected in RSH, the FENNEC was. It’s rather disturbing that the GoI entirely ignored this selection and went for L2. If India was a mature democracy with a functioning opposition and media with any sense this would be a govt ending scandal but alas GoIs rely on the ignorance and indifference of their constituents to get their way


So if QPQ is needed (haven’t seen many other nations playing this game of buying off UNSC members in such a transparent manner m) and it’s a simple dollar amount why not select something that will actually benefit indian industry and or Indian armed forces not harm them? Could have leased another SSN from Russia for the same amount, could’ve ordered another 2-3 A-50 PHALCONS etc. The list is endless

It seems like Russia uses India as a dumping ground for all their junk- first it was the unfinished 11356 Hulls now it’s this KA226 helicopter that was designed as a basic farmer’s helicopter (google the videos) and then given a modest update and marketed to India. Where are the other operators lining up for it? Russia says India will be able to export it to third parties knowing full well there is zero demand for it out there. With 200 units India will easily become the world’s largest user of the type (by a huge margin)

Meanwhile HAL LUH is a bespoke solution designed from the outset to SQRs, again no other country would shoot them selves in the foot like this.


Every single KA-226 ordered is 1 less LUH that will be ordered. Cannot spin this any other ways. Even the pakis have more shame than this.


2) the MH-60R is the successor to the S-70B vs NH-90 NMRH competition that the S-70B won so moot point. Almost all of the American hardware in Indian hands has come from an open tender and competition. Cannot remember the last time a Russian product ordered by India had ANY competition, they just pop up out of nowhere (like the AK-203 deal) and are GTG from the outset.


Prem Kumar has taken the wind out my sails on most points


The ‘greater good’ argument doesn’t hold true if your objective is to be a self reliant global power.


I’ve said it before in other forums but India doesn’t deserve the talents it is blessed with, no wonder the best and brightest all flee abroad.

LCA fruits being seeing and MK.2 being readied—> commence MMRCA 2.0/MRFA

Design and construct domestic SSBN and aircraft carrier—> seek out gold plated foreign SSKs (P75I)

Maturity being seen in small arm front from PSUs and private sector—> buy AK203 to kill off the entire industry for the next 30+ years

Pour years and years into domestic RPA/UAS projects—> start talks for American drones that won’t even have their command/control centres on Indian soil

Arjun is a mature product—> cap orders at 124 units and order a few 100 more T90

World class P17A under construction —> order 4 inferior 11356 frigates

I could literally go on and on

Myopic thinking will ensure India never takes the logical next step to the power table.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4891
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 18 Sep 2020 18:56

KSingh wrote:It seems like Russia uses India as a dumping ground for all their junk- first it was the unfinished 11356 Hulls now it’s this KA226 helicopter that was designed as a basic farmer’s helicopter (google the videos) and then given a modest update and marketed to India. Where are the other operators lining up for it? Russia says India will be able to export it to third parties knowing full well there is zero demand for it out there. With 200 units India will easily become the world’s largest user of the type (by a huge margin)


Sir, you are forgetting the desi penchance for sauda karana. Those frigates be unfinished so we can get at bargain price! Like the derelict Adm Gorshkov, we got that from for free. (We just had to pay a few billions for refitting and the development of MiG-29K.)

The KA-226 will be great. You'll see. It's deal because we are in first before everyone elses pushes up the price!

We are like Trump and his Art of the Deal onlee.

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 835
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raveen » 18 Sep 2020 22:07

chola wrote:
KSingh wrote:It seems like Russia uses India as a dumping ground for all their junk- first it was the unfinished 11356 Hulls now it’s this KA226 helicopter that was designed as a basic farmer’s helicopter (google the videos) and then given a modest update and marketed to India. Where are the other operators lining up for it? Russia says India will be able to export it to third parties knowing full well there is zero demand for it out there. With 200 units India will easily become the world’s largest user of the type (by a huge margin)


Sir, you are forgetting the desi penchance for sauda karana. Those frigates be unfinished so we can get at bargain price! Like the derelict Adm Gorshkov, we got that from for free. (We just had to pay a few billions for refitting and the development of MiG-29K.)

The KA-226 will be great. You'll see. It's deal because we are in first before everyone elses pushes up the price!

We are like Trump and his Art of the Deal onlee.


I sense you forgot the /s at the end of your post saar ji

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 18 Sep 2020 23:31

KSingh, the Fennec winning against the Ka-226 was disregarded because there were allegations of corruption in the tender. It was precisely because the govt. of the day did not want it to become a "govt. ending scandal" that they canceled it. This was back in the 2007. They did not choose L2, but retendered it and Kamov won it the second time around (probably because choosing the Fennec again would be politically troublesome).

Neither the Fennec nor the Ka-226 have the performance to replace the Cheetahs at Siachen though. Only the LUH can do that.

IMHO Ka-226 competing the same "Light helicopter" tender as the Fennec is itself amusing considering that not only does it have 2 engines (which is unusual for a light helo) but its gross weight (3.8 tonnes) is higher than the MTOW of the Fennec (2.25 tonnes). Even our own LUH has an MTOW of only 3.1 tonnes. Ka-226 is pushing the boundaries of a Light helo at least as far as weight is concerned.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2124
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 20 Sep 2020 20:26


putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4506
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby putnanja » 20 Sep 2020 21:53

A good write up on LUH from Ananth Krishnan

Rotor Recap: The Light Utility Helicopter story so far...

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 21 Sep 2020 13:49

KSingh wrote:1) why KA-226?

Postage stamp sized landing zones in forward areas. Read the RAF helo pilot's sortie in Siachen. He couldnt spot the helipad until after the helicopter landed.

KSingh wrote:Why not more 17V5s for the same ($2-3bn)?

Since 80+59+12=151 were purchased recently. 54 Mi-17IV and 53 Mi-17 older orders. 200+ helicopters in service.

KSingh wrote:KA-226 was actually not selected in RSH, the FENNEC was.

Actually the Ka-226 was the winner as per AAC due to better flight characteristics in the mountains. One of the two US FVL contenders have contra rotating rotors, so there is some technical merit in the selection.

KSingh wrote:haven’t seen many other nations playing this game of buying off UNSC members in such a transparent manner

Just like Japan sits on tectonic plates and fault lines, we sit on civilizational fault lines. Three faultlines are active - Sinic, Central Asian+Islamic and Middle Eastern+Islamic. Two are passive - African and South East Asian due to ocean barrier.

Please read the following book

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations
The Clash of Civilizations is a thesis that people's cultural and religious identities will be the primary source of conflict in the post-Cold War world. The American political scientist Samuel P. Huntington argued that future wars would be fought not between countries, but between cultures.


Except that its both future and past. If one reads India's history, all external wars were clash of civilizations. India being an economically prosperous nation, we will always be at threat.

Unfortunately our leaders dont have a military bent of mind. People like Baji Rao or Hari Singh Nalwa or Zorawar Singh or Sagat Singh are extremely rare. And even these people never reached the position of national decision making.

So paying great nations for their support is the next best option.

KSingh wrote:Could have leased another SSN from Russia for the same amount, could’ve ordered another 2-3 A-50 PHALCONS etc.

Agreed

KSingh wrote:It seems like Russia uses India as a dumping ground for all their junk- first it was the unfinished 11356 Hulls now it’s this KA226 helicopter that was designed as a basic farmer’s helicopter (google the videos) and then given a modest update and marketed to India. Where are the other operators lining up for it? Russia says India will be able to export it to third parties knowing full well there is zero demand for it out there. With 200 units India will easily become the world’s largest user of the type (by a huge margin)

Agreed. Though they're the ones most supportive to India's foreign policy as well.

KSingh wrote:The ‘greater good’ argument doesn’t hold true if your objective is to be a self reliant global power.

Depends on the definition of power. Our leaders seek economic power since it gives the nation stability. Hence wont allow fully assembled Harley Davidsons despite Trump desperately wanting it. Same for Ford cars. Our leaders sacrifice military industry for economic power.

KSingh wrote:Cannot remember the last time a Russian product ordered by India had ANY competition, they just pop up out of nowhere (like the AK-203 deal) and are GTG from the outset.

Yet no one questions national leadership.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2020 03:07

We paint ourselves into such corners by not having a long-range perspective plan.

Just a post above K Singh said could have bought more Russian hardware and next line he goes Russian junk. :eek:


pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pankajs » 24 Sep 2020 14:47

^^
Q: When will LUH production begin?

The issuance of IOC by the Centre for Military Airworthiness and Certification (CEMILCA) paves the way for launch of production. We have requested the IAF and Army to initiate the process of AoN (Acceptance of Necessity) to enable HAL to commence production.

The process of AoN, issuing RFP (Request for Proposal), technical evaluation, commercial evaluation, price negotiation and placement of order has a lead time of two to three years. We hope everything will fall in place soon with the successful completion of trials.

To start with, we can produce minimum 30 to 40 LUHs per year at our upcoming facility in Tumukuru in Karnataka.
2 to 3 years toooo long.
Q: Can a civil version of LUH be developed by HAL?

A: We have made extensive study to assess the market potential of LUH in civil applications. We found great potential for LUH in India and overseas in the next 10 to 15 years.

Keeping this in view, we have made a concept paper and forwarded to Ministry of Civil Aviation for possibility of upfront funding. If concurred, we can develop and certify the LUH with civil certified equipment and system within a time span of four to five years.

We have made formal application to DGCA for taking up design and development of LUH civil version in this regard.

Why is DGCA approval needed for "design and development"? I would have expected an FYI at most or not even that at the design stage.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 24 Sep 2020 15:32



Article quotes MR Chaterjee as stating aero mods were done after the previous trials. So I guess there were issues that needed to be fixed as far as the Army was concerned. This business of applying the dpp to locally designed and built products needs to change. Why cant there be an "emergency" buy for products like the LUH,LCH and LCA?

photos from: https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR

2019
Image

2020
Image

Substantial change in the rudder element?
Last edited by Bharadwaj on 24 Sep 2020 22:33, edited 2 times in total.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4055
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 24 Sep 2020 15:58

So to sign a contract by MoD with a MoD owned company it is going to take 3 years. Another 1.5-2 years to start deliveries. While our pilots fly in outdated junk and numerous news articles screaming the need to replacement. What a joke.

It is not as if IAF/IA didn't know it was coming. You come up with a specific prices estimate and place an order. Once the real price is available after the test, MoD can absorb the difference. Atleast the helis will start coming earlier.

But hey, we won't do it.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 24 Sep 2020 23:07

The process of AoN, issuing RFP (Request for Proposal), technical evaluation, commercial evaluation, price negotiation and placement of order has a lead time of two to three years


https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1645092
With Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) having successfully developed Basic Trainer Aircraft (HTT-40) Prototypes and certification process underway, the DAC approved procurement of 106 Basic Trainer Aircraft from HAL to address the basic training requirements of the Indian Air Force (IAF). Post Certification 70 Basic Trainer Aircraft will be initially procured from HAL and balance 36 after operationalisation of HTT-40 fleet in IAF.


DAC has approved 106 HTT-40 even before IOC has been achieved. Incase of LUH, IOC has been achieved and 187 order commitment is there. So an AON, DAC Approval and CCS Approval can be expedited.

A: We have made extensive study to assess the market potential of LUH in civil applications. We found great potential for LUH in India and overseas in the next 10 to 15 years. Keeping this in view, we have made a concept paper and forwarded to Ministry of Civil Aviation for possibility of upfront funding. If concurred, we can develop and certify the LUH with civil certified equipment and system within a time span of four to five years


Given that civil aircraft have more stringent safety requirements than military aircraft, including EASA and FAA certifications, it will require further funding and development.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificat ... ification/
https://www.easa.europa.eu/domains/airc ... tification

Even if the aircraft flies only in India, civil/private operators and users will prefer EASA and FAA certification for safety reasons.

For overseas customers and operators, EASA and FAA certifications are must have.

basant
BRFite
Posts: 334
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 24 Sep 2020 23:24

tsarkar wrote:Given that civil aircraft have more stringent safety requirements than military aircraft, including EASA and FAA certifications, it will require further funding and development.

This is counterintuitive, at least for me. Was under the impression that Mil standards are higher in general. Unless LUH is produced and supported by some private entity and it proves its prowess in numbers for several years in services, I doubt anyone would consider it over the likes of Bell 407 and Airbus AS350. Good to see the effort though and have certification done.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 26 Sep 2020 10:10



Full conversation of Tarmak with Mr.Chatterjee regarding LUH,NUH,Kamov etc

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2020 10:30

basant wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Given that civil aircraft have more stringent safety requirements than military aircraft, including EASA and FAA certifications, it will require further funding and development.

This is counterintuitive, at least for me. Was under the impression that Mil standards are higher in general. Unless LUH is produced and supported by some private entity and it proves its prowess in numbers for several years in services, I doubt anyone would consider it over the likes of Bell 407 and Airbus AS350. Good to see the effort though and have certification done.


why is it counter intutive... civil aircraft fly with non combatants practically every day ... more than once every day...

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 26 Sep 2020 10:43

The above linked interview also reveals rotor uav for high altitude supply ops being developed by HAL.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8227
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 26 Sep 2020 11:30

yes. In development for a while now. Somebody here can speak about it at detail. But please don't prod.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 26 Sep 2020 12:09

Yes and if we are into chicom style propaganda we can deliver hot chole bhatura to our troops too... We will need the higher capabilities of the RUAV since chole battura may weigh more than lizards,cockroaches,bats etc... :wink:

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 945
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 26 Sep 2020 13:06

From the video
- By July 2022 certification of segmented main rotor blade for NUH version of ALH.

- IMRH
IA on board with 100 helicopter requirement.
IAF on board with 200 helicopter requirement.
8 years for certification.
Total requirement 300 nos.

parikh_ind
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 9
Joined: 03 Sep 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby parikh_ind » 26 Sep 2020 13:07

In the tarmaak video , the HAL boss says 2 years for production order from IOC , including AON , RFP , Another set of evaluation , Price Negotiation and son on. Production facility is almost ready and can deliver upto 60 helicopters a year. Must be same story for LCH.

Still waiting for funds for IMRH and Rotary UAV.

We are experts in wrapping ourselves in red tape and shooting our selves in our back sides.

basant
BRFite
Posts: 334
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 26 Sep 2020 19:35

manjgu wrote:why is it counter intutive... civil aircraft fly with non combatants practically every day ... more than once every day...

Military helicopters (ALH, LUH, etc.) will have to operate in extreme conditions as well as at the edge of envelope, unlike civilian versions that would operate within relatively benign conditions. Availability/sortie rate and maintainability are different aspects, and I do not think that certification considers that though potential operators definitely would. Obviously I am wrong, but not sure why!

Hari Nair
BRFite
Posts: 282
Joined: 20 Aug 2010 17:37
Location: Bangalore

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Hari Nair » 26 Sep 2020 20:42

Neither of you guys are right!
The civil certification requirements are very different from the military standards.
There are a fair number of meeting / common points in terms of standards / requirements.
There are also extremely different requirements and approaches for the civil and mil certification requirements.
In some parameters, the civil requirement may be more difficult and involve more numbers of flight tests, etc to prove.
For the mil certification, some parameters (such as crashworthiness), etc call for very different approaches to design.
The two are essentially representing very different eco-systems and require different approaches.

basant
BRFite
Posts: 334
Joined: 20 Mar 2020 20:58

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 26 Sep 2020 20:50

Thanks for the clarification, sir.

raghuk
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 54
Joined: 16 Aug 2016 00:38

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 26 Sep 2020 22:49

Further, the civil authorities are an absolute PIA ;)

MeshaVishwas
BRFite
Posts: 564
Joined: 16 Feb 2019 17:20

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby MeshaVishwas » 27 Sep 2020 01:32

Two-year residual life of 56 Mi-17s after ₹223-crore upgrade untenable: CAG
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 697145.ece
:x
Well done MoD, used up tax ₹ efficiently.

KSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 27 Sep 2020 05:10

nam wrote:So to sign a contract by MoD with a MoD owned company it is going to take 3 years. Another 1.5-2 years to start deliveries. While our pilots fly in outdated junk and numerous news articles screaming the need to replacement. What a joke.

It is not as if IAF/IA didn't know it was coming. You come up with a specific prices estimate and place an order. Once the real price is available after the test, MoD can absorb the difference. Atleast the helis will start coming earlier.

But hey, we won't do it.

Mad isn’t it? How long have these fights been going back and forth for the LCA MK1A order?

One department of the govt arguing with another, would this cr@p fly in a private company?



AON then a RFQ then an RFP and then a contract, treating HAL as a foreign entity -facepalm- it’s not like this is a machine that has been built to IA/IAF SQRs from day one

The moment LUH obtained IOC it should have triggered immediate sanction of the LSP order at the very least.


It deeply pains me that this beautiful machine is being given this treatment, there’s easily a market for 1000+ of her between the military and civil market in India. HEMS is going to be a huge market in India in upcoming years (already some states are launching these services with imported Airbus helos) not to Demand from mention state police forces


The HAL LUH could be India’s Bell 206- an inexpensive single engine multi role help adopted across the country for all vertical lift duties


Best case scenario- IA grants IOC by Dec, AON by April that allows HAL to start fabricating LSP airframes in anticipation of a formal order (as with LCH), formal contract for LSP in 2022/3, full production orders in 2024-5


It’s genuinly heartbreaking to see the way LCH and LUH are treated and it doesn’t seem to be looking any better for IMRH (already it’s clear the freaking navy isn’t giving it any attention despite RWRDC creating a specific navy variant that is slightly smaller and lighter compared to the IA/IAF variant)


On NUH- leave the RFI out there and continue the process, if HAL can deliver the ALH NUH (mk.3) by July 2022 cancel the foreign NUH tender straight away. No way a foreign contender will have demonstrated their bird on Indian ships in the next 2 years, no chance at all.


If HAL can meet the 2022 deadline the ALH is by far the best option.


Also interesting to hear that there is a phase 2 for Rudra that includes DIRCM, DIRCM remember is to feature on the LCH also so once again they are using Rudra to price tech for LCH

KSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 27 Sep 2020 05:14

parikh_ind wrote:In the tarmaak video , the HAL boss says 2 years for production order from IOC , including AON , RFP , Another set of evaluation , Price Negotiation and son on. Production facility is almost ready and can deliver upto 60 helicopters a year. Must be same story for LCH.

Still waiting for funds for IMRH and Rotary UAV.

We are experts in wrapping ourselves in red tape and shooting our selves in our back sides.

Hard to distinguish between genuine incompetence or intentional sabotage so that the import lobby gets more $

Either way the results are the same, as India’s primary adversary perseveres with their less than perfect projects making strides with each iteration and builds up on a superpower scale, Indian armed forces are compiling wish lists straight from pages of Janes defence weekly

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2483
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2020 07:40

KSingh wrote:
nam wrote:So to sign a contract by MoD with a MoD owned company it is going to take 3 years. Another 1.5-2 years to start deliveries. While our pilots fly in outdated junk and numerous news articles screaming the need to replacement. What a joke.

It is not as if IAF/IA didn't know it was coming. You come up with a specific prices estimate and place an order. Once the real price is available after the test, MoD can absorb the difference. Atleast the helis will start coming earlier.

But hey, we won't do it.

Mad isn’t it? How long have these fights been going back and forth for the LCA MK1A order?

One department of the govt arguing with another, would this cr@p fly in a private company?



AON then a RFQ then an RFP and then a contract, treating HAL as a foreign entity -facepalm- it’s not like this is a machine that has been built to IA/IAF SQRs from day one

The moment LUH obtained IOC it should have triggered immediate sanction of the LSP order at the very least.


It deeply pains me that this beautiful machine is being given this treatment, there’s easily a market for 1000+ of her between the military and civil market in India. HEMS is going to be a huge market in India in upcoming years (already some states are launching these services with imported Airbus helos) not to Demand from mention state police forces


The HAL LUH could be India’s Bell 206- an inexpensive single engine multi role help adopted across the country for all vertical lift duties


Best case scenario- IA grants IOC by Dec, AON by April that allows HAL to start fabricating LSP airframes in anticipation of a formal order (as with LCH), formal contract for LSP in 2022/3, full production orders in 2024-5


It’s genuinly heartbreaking to see the way LCH and LUH are treated and it doesn’t seem to be looking any better for IMRH (already it’s clear the freaking navy isn’t giving it any attention despite RWRDC creating a specific navy variant that is slightly smaller and lighter compared to the IA/IAF variant)


On NUH- leave the RFI out there and continue the process, if HAL can deliver the ALH NUH (mk.3) by July 2022 cancel the foreign NUH tender straight away. No way a foreign contender will have demonstrated their bird on Indian ships in the next 2 years, no chance at all.


If HAL can meet the 2022 deadline the ALH is by far the best option.


Also interesting to hear that there is a phase 2 for Rudra that includes DIRCM, DIRCM remember is to feature on the LCH also so once again they are using Rudra to price tech for LCH


true.. can u believe that a machines has been made as per specs/requirements/tested by user and yet a AON has to be generated for production to begin !!!! can there more babugiri than this ... and price negotiations between 2 govt entities !! next summer we will still be discussing why the AON has been delayed

Jayram
BRFite
Posts: 338
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Jayram » 27 Sep 2020 10:47

And all this while a war is afoot!! and enemy is at the door. Truly mindboggling. Need a revolution in the bureaucracy. Where is the CAG audit of these practices? Where is the accountability? Perhaps a twitter campaign to convince the powers that this state of affairs is what needs to change. Give IAF and Army discretionary funds to release to HAL to produce these machines.

KSingh
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 70
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 27 Sep 2020 11:23

Jayram wrote:And all this while a war is afoot!! and enemy is at the door. Truly mindboggling. Need a revolution in the bureaucracy. Where is the CAG audit of these practices? Where is the accountability? Perhaps a twitter campaign to convince the powers that this state of affairs is what needs to change. Give IAF and Army discretionary funds to release to HAL to produce these machines.


During heightened hostilities last year with Pak and Then this year with China OFB went on strike or threatened to. Govt seemingly looked the other way.


Now DRDO is throwing all their handbuilt prototypes at Ladakh (LCH and LUH have been sent, Kestral also) and MoD/Service HQs are still playing business as usual and moving files back
And forth following the ‘usual’ contract procedures and covering their a$$es :evil:

I mean what does it have to take for these guys to move with some swiftness? LUH is a machine literally designed from day 1 to support the troops at the highest of the high positions and what is the number one issue facing the Indian mil as the army has massively reinforced units in Ladakh? Logistics and keeping these massive numbers in fighting condition.


It blows my mind that LUH isn’t one of the emergency requirements and that MoD/service HQs aren’t crying out for it.


Frankly disappointed in the CDS who seems to have gone AWOL since Galwan. Creating a list of immediate indigenous defence priorities should’ve been his number 1 priority and Kestral,LUH, LCH etc should’ve been right near the top of this.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 27 Sep 2020 13:30

KSingh wrote:...
During heightened hostilities last year with Pak and Then this year with China OFB went on strike or threatened to. Govt seemingly looked the other way.


Now DRDO is throwing all their handbuilt prototypes at Ladakh (LCH and LUH have been sent, Kestral also) and MoD/Service HQs are still playing business as usual and moving files back
And forth following the ‘usual’ contract procedures and covering their a$$es :evil:

I mean what does it have to take for these guys to move with some swiftness? LUH is a machine literally designed from day 1 to support the troops at the highest of the high positions and what is the number one issue facing the Indian mil as the army has massively reinforced units in Ladakh? Logistics and keeping these massive numbers in fighting condition.


It blows my mind that LUH isn’t one of the emergency requirements and that MoD/service HQs aren’t crying out for it.


Frankly disappointed in the CDS who seems to have gone AWOL since Galwan. Creating a list of immediate indigenous defence priorities should’ve been his number 1 priority and Kestral,LUH, LCH etc should’ve been right near the top of this.


Mod Note: Hyperbole, not supported by facts. Please desist from commenting on officials in GOI unless you can substantiate it with news reports and links. Consider this as an initial advisory. Next time will be a warning or actions felt appropriate.

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 27 Sep 2020 14:37

In the interview with Ananth, Mr Chaterjee states that Amar is the highest helipad and the LUH performed well there.I was under the impression that it was Sonam?. I guess a slip of the tongue or perhaps things have changed on the ground. Hopefully LUH performed well at Sonam too (tests were done there too) and another set of trials deeper into the corner of the envelop is not needed. The price adjustment process suggested up thread would go a long way in clearing up the road for true Indian solutions.

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 542
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Ankit Desai » 29 Sep 2020 05:21

Bharadwaj wrote:

Full conversation of Tarmak with Mr.Chatterjee regarding LUH,NUH,Kamov etc



Good Watch. Thank you.

Ankit

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 361
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ManuJ » 29 Sep 2020 06:22

Indian armed forces are totally out of sync with the MIC and PSUs.

On one hand, HAL in this video is pleading to the IAF and IA to initiate the process of AoN, but the armed forces seem to be holding back, requesting trials after trials and full certification as a pre-requisite.

On the other hand, the armed forces are raising an alarm over the fast-depleting stock of antiquated Cheetah and Chetaks:
They have urged the government to fast-track two long-pending 'Make in India' projects to build such light utility helicopters as well as ensure defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) delivers its own under-development choppers in requisite numbers within the required timeframes.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/armed-forces-raise-alert-over-old-cheetah/chetak-helicopters/articleshow/78374055.cms

If there is such an emergency, how about doing things in parallel and in a timely manner for a change?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21055
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 29 Sep 2020 07:02

The LUH req.must be sealed on a war footing,both for KA-226 and HSL's LUH.The req. will be sev. hundreds.Sad that after the signing 5 years ago by the PM and Putin,the deal has yet to be concluded.

In the light of the PRC threat,I feel we should at speed also test out Boeing's V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor bird in the Himalayan terrain Can land and take off like a helo.Used by US spl. forces too apart from carrying troops and cargo .

Bharadwaj
BRFite
Posts: 386
Joined: 09 Oct 2006 11:09

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 29 Sep 2020 09:17

Just like the noise level got higher when the LCA reached FOC, the noise level seems to be getting higher after the LUH trials. The era of imports and screwdriver giri is on the way out and there is nothing any vested interest can do about it.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2488
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 29 Sep 2020 09:54

Philip wrote:The LUH req.must be sealed on a war footing,both for KA-226 and HSL's LUH.The req. will be sev. hundreds.Sad that after the signing 5 years ago by the PM and Putin,the deal has yet to be concluded.

In the light of the PRC threat,I feel we should at speed also test out Boeing's V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor bird in the Himalayan terrain Can land and take off like a helo.Used by US spl. forces too apart from carrying troops and cargo .

I'm sorry but you may be the only one sad about the KA-226 deal still not moving. Ospreys? Et tu Brutus? Are you jumping the roosi ship? Let us not get off on tangents.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1547
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 29 Sep 2020 10:34

Vivek K wrote:
Philip wrote:The LUH req.must be sealed on a war footing,both for KA-226 and HSL's LUH.The req. will be sev. hundreds.Sad that after the signing 5 years ago by the PM and Putin,the deal has yet to be concluded.

In the light of the PRC threat,I feel we should at speed also test out Boeing's V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor bird in the Himalayan terrain Can land and take off like a helo.Used by US spl. forces too apart from carrying troops and cargo .

I'm sorry but you may be the only one sad about the KA-226 deal still not moving. Ospreys? Et tu Brutus? Are you jumping the roosi ship? Let us not get off on tangents.


Shame on us for the Ka226 when we have a ghar Ki murgi....

You. Want ospreys and backfires and spurt when’s the boys don’t have proper BPJ’s. Marshall Filipov you remind me of some who has just walked off the sets of the Pentagon Wars!!!!

Paul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3609
Joined: 25 Jun 1999 11:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Paul » 29 Sep 2020 16:00

P C Mohan
@PCMohanMP

The #HAL achieved a commendable milestone with its 300th Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH-Dhruv). #Dhruv, a multirole and multimission helicopter is used in the Indian Army, Airforce & Navy for both utility and attack roles. Congratulations to HAL for this remarkable achievement!


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Ashok Sarraff, brar_w, Kakarat, Rakesh and 51 guests