Indian Military Helicopters

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sankum
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 13 Nov 2020 15:34

My estimate is LUH must be 30%cheaper than Ka226. It will and should get all 384 nos order of IA and IAF combined.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 13 Nov 2020 19:40

Not going to happen. One way or the other we have to pay Jiziya to the Russians to keep them happy even if their hardware is not 100% upto the mark.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Picklu » 14 Nov 2020 00:01

Vips wrote:Not going to happen. One way or the other we have to pay Jiziya to the Russians to keep them happy even if their hardware is not 100% upto the mark.


I prefer to pay the Jijiya for Akulas instead of Ka226.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 14 Nov 2020 10:27

Picklu wrote:
Vips wrote:Not going to happen. One way or the other we have to pay Jiziya to the Russians to keep them happy even if their hardware is not 100% upto the mark.


I prefer to pay the Jijiya for Akulas instead of Ka226.

You don’t get to choose it is what russia pushes.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 14 Nov 2020 10:42

KA 226 buy is pushing slogan Jai jawan, Jai kisan a little too far.
Russian items like Igla, AK 203, Mig 29, Akula were for battle field usage only.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 21 Nov 2020 14:04

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhaduria has taken a ride in LCH prototype. The flight lasted about an hour.
A few days back, he had also flown as a co-pilot in the Apache.
The first IAF chief to fly in so many under development prototypes.

Hopefully will pave the way for orders for LCH being placed before the calender year end.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Nov 2020 14:59

John wrote:You don’t get to choose it is what russia pushes.


In which case, whoever is doing the negotiations with the Russians (MEA, RM) and whoever is advising them is doing a lousy job.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 23 Nov 2020 19:00

Anantha Krishnan M
@writetake
In this interview to Atul Chandra
@CheckSix_Bison
, HAL Heli CEO Anbuvelan says Dhruv civil variant will be ready by 2021. That's good news for all desi mil fan boyz & gals.

https://gbp.com.sg/stories/exclusive-in ... r-complex/

- 22 utility Dhruv delivered to IA
- 6 of 18 Rudra helos delivered to IA
- 10 of 32 Naval Dhruv order for IN and CG built

Remaining 34 Dhruvs to be built by 2022-23.

Future Orders
- 9 Dhruv likely for CG (Total fleet will go up to 28=3+16+9)
- More Dhruv likely for IN.
-20 more Dhruv likely order for IAF
-23 more Dhruv likely order for IA ( my estimate includes 6 nos replacement for crashed Dhruv cleared )

Till 111 nos NUH is finalized IN can continue ordering current version of Naval Dhruv to meet immediate requirements.

Present 66 nos Rudra fleet of IA with 12 nos more to be delivered.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 23 Nov 2020 20:17

As someone suggested,the DRDO and DPSUs after having developed desi milware,should allow the pvt. sector to licence build the products,not hog the whole cake for themselves. No secret that the often poor performing DPSUs do not want competition from the pvt. sector which would show them up. Look at L&Ts deliveries of small warships.On time.They are supplying key components for our SSBN programme. Tatas are building helo cabins for Sikorsky,etc.Their LTA ,the C-295 has yet to be sealed even after 4 years! They could easily manufacture the LCH ,LUH,whatever,but HAL wants to scoff the lot at its leisurely pace of production.Tell me , is there any country in the world where a president ( Putin) and PM ( Modi) formally sign an agreement to produce LUHs and AKs,etc. jointly ,delayed by babudom for around 4 years? The speed with which some deals from certain countries are rushed through show that the playing field isn't level.

The innovative lease idea is coming under flak from certain quarters because it resloves the non- performance by the DPSUs,is cheaper than an outright buy, easier on the purse,provides for IMMEDIATE or almost immediate capability in the hands of the forces, and is a G-to- G transaction.Middlemen kept out.The IN in particular favour the lease option because of huge delays in
warship,subs, decisions on MCMs,ASW helos,auxiliaries,etc. A favourable lease option to acquire dozens of LUHs and ASW helos to field on wsrships whose hrlo hangars are empty. The 10 yr. lease of the Akula/ Chakra has been a great success,with another Akula being modified for lease too. The 3 services could hugely benefit from leases at the current moment of crisis on the Sino- Pak border where we urgently require light tanks,AD SAMs, drones, aircraft,AWACS/AEW birds,tankers,subs ,MCMs, over 100+ helos ,auxiliaries, etc.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2020 23:33

Exclusive Interview: S Anbuvelan, CEO HAL, Helicopter Complex
https://gbp.com.sg/stories/exclusive-in ... r-complex/
17 Nov 2020

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 24 Nov 2020 00:29

52 nos likely more Dhruv order extends production to 2024-25 @ 24/year.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 24 Nov 2020 19:49

Exclusive preview: The Indian Navy and Coast Guard’s ALH ‘Dhruv’ Mk-III helicopters
https://verticalmag.com/news/indian-nav ... uv-mk-iii/

. nose-mounted surveillance radar with 270-degree coverage that can detect, classify and track multiple marine targets; it has synthetic-aperture radar, inverse synthetic-aperture radar, and moving target indication classification functions, including weather mode. There is also a multi-spectral electro-optic (EO) pod for reconnaissance, surveillance, target acquisition and range finding with stowable control grip on copilot side.

Only 6 nos of 16 Dhruv of IN is ASW version with dunking Sonar.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 25 Nov 2020 00:40

As it stands the latest Dhruv iteration is its most evolved one for marine environment.

In hindsight developing the product and associated service (PBL etc) with a less complex and demanding customer i.e ICG is the logical thing to do. Going further, why not get Pawan Hans and ONGC to operate these instead of the dauphins? There is plenty of requirement between just these customers, not to mention the likes to Reliance, MESCO and other private operators.

6 Dhruv in ASW role is a big bonus for IN in the space. The fleet operating out of Bombay or Gujarat will give PN planners plenty to consider.

sankum wrote:https://verticalmag.com/news/indian-navy-coast-guard-alh-dhruv-mk-iii/

. nose-mounted surveillance radar with 270-degree coverage that can detect, classify and track multiple marine targets; it has synthetic-aperture radar, inverse synthetic-aperture radar, and moving target indication classification functions, including weather mode. There is also a multi-spectral electro-optic (EO) pod for reconnaissance, surveillance, target acquisition and range finding with stowable control grip on copilot side.

Only 6 nos of 16 Dhruv of IN is ASW version with dunking Sonar.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 04 Jan 2021 13:55

Safran-HAL JV will soon set up factory in Valpoi: Shripad NAik

2020-12-06

Naik said that the much-awaited joint venture between Safran Helicopter Engines, a French company, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a defence PSU, will soon set up helicopter spare parts production factory in Valpoi.

https://www.navhindtimes.in/2020/12/06/goanews/safran-hal-jv-will-soon-set-up-factory-in-valpoi-shripad/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 04 Jan 2021 14:15

Ministry of Defence
BEL signs contract with Indian Navy for Initial supply of indigenously developed Laser Dazzlers
Posted On: 31 DEC 2020 8:34PM by PIB Delhi
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=1685201

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 05 Jan 2021 01:38

No LCH orders still? Any word on what is the latest about the 15 incomplete airframes?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Jan 2021 10:13

Does someone know if the deliveries of these ALH-MK3's for the ICG & IN are on track? The schedule, as per this report are:

HAL hopes to deliver five coastal security ALH Dhruv Mk-III helicopters by the end of November 2020, another nine by March 2021, and the balance 18 helicopters by September 2021 — a tough task given HAL’s order book and the changed situation post-Covid


https://verticalmag.com/news/indian-navy-coast-guard-alh-dhruv-mk-iii/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jan 2021 10:17

Vivek K wrote:No LCH orders still? Any word on what is the latest about the 15 incomplete airframes?


No orders, I think. Also no decision on the ATGM integration work...or did I miss that news somewhere?

The LCH R&D program is being nicely handled by HAL. The production program is gathering rust in the files of MoD and IAF/IA.

Maybe another surprise event for Aero India 2021 is the signing of this contract...?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby AkshaySG » 05 Jan 2021 10:27

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Vivek K wrote:No LCH orders still? Any word on what is the latest about the 15 incomplete airframes?


No orders, I think. Also no decision on the ATGM integration work...or did I miss that news somewhere?

The LCH R&D program is being nicely handled by HAL. The production program is gathering rust in the files of MoD and IAF/IA.

Maybe another surprise event for Aero India 2021 is the signing of this contract...?


This happens every time before Aero India... Everyone starts holding their breath hoping for mega contracts to be signed during it and more often than not it passes by without anything substantial.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jan 2021 10:34

AkshaySG wrote:This happens every time before Aero India... Everyone starts holding their breath hoping for mega contracts to be signed during it and more often than not it passes by without anything substantial.


Thank you for bursting that little bubble of hope I was hanging on to.

At what point does HAL say that they cannot continue development work endlessly without shuttering the program? Are they receiving funds to continue the R&D work? Or is it all internal HAL money?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby AkshaySG » 05 Jan 2021 11:30

vivek_ahuja wrote:
AkshaySG wrote:This happens every time before Aero India... Everyone starts holding their breath hoping for mega contracts to be signed during it and more often than not it passes by without anything substantial.


Thank you for bursting that little bubble of hope I was hanging on to.

At what point does HAL say that they cannot continue development work endlessly without shuttering the program? Are they receiving funds to continue the R&D work? Or is it all internal HAL money?


There is still reason for some hope, The current IAF chief has said a lot of good things about both LCA and LCH and is firm in his commitment to HAL's products like none before him... So if he keeps the pressure on MOD then there should be some results

The real causes for concern against any big ticket contracts being signed right now as far as I see them is a reduction in budget due to Covid and/or a political situation in which they don't want to give the opposition ammo to beat them with especially when there is some trouble brewing but again everything depends on the government and how they see the situation.

I personally think LCA deal would be announced by March end but the LCH deal might be delayed by a couple more quarters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 05 Jan 2021 11:40

AkshaySG wrote:There is still reason for some hope, The current IAF chief has said a lot of good things about both LCA and LCH and is firm in his commitment to HAL's products like none before him... So if he keeps the pressure on MOD then there should be some results


I am an impatient man by nature. I want things to happen when things are ready to go. But watching the LCH and LCA threads gives me pain in the knees just reading the amount of platitudes shown by senior IAF/MOD leadership with nothing happening on the ground.

Indian military acquisitions are a generational affair, apparently. You tag on to a new piece of tech when you are a teenager and grow white hairs by the time it enters mass production (if ever).

AkshaySG wrote:The real causes for concern against any big ticket contracts being signed right now as far as I see them is a reduction in budget due to Covid and/or a political situation in which they don't want to give the opposition ammo to beat them with especially when there is some trouble brewing but again everything depends on the government and how they see the situation.


Any such opposition to home grown R&D programs is classifiable as treason in my book.

AkshaySG wrote:I personally think LCA deal would be announced by March end but the LCH deal might be delayed by a couple more quarters.


You are basing these estimates on some facts or just speculation? I am still willing to bet 10 dollars on the AeroIndia 2021 event.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 05 Jan 2021 12:16

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Vivek K wrote:No LCH orders still? Any word on what is the latest about the 15 incomplete airframes?


No orders, I think. Also no decision on the ATGM integration work...or did I miss that news somewhere?

The LCH R&D program is being nicely handled by HAL. The production program is gathering rust in the files of MoD and IAF/IA.

Maybe another surprise event for Aero India 2021 is the signing of this contract...?


Until the DRDO ATGM completes trials wanted Hellfire to provide interim capability LCH has integral laser sight.
DRDO won't press for it.
HAL won't unless told to.
IAF won't demand for it eats into Apache stocks!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 06 Jan 2021 03:15

ramana wrote:
vivek_ahuja wrote:
No orders, I think. Also no decision on the ATGM integration work...or did I miss that news somewhere?

The LCH R&D program is being nicely handled by HAL. The production program is gathering rust in the files of MoD and IAF/IA.

Maybe another surprise event for Aero India 2021 is the signing of this contract...?


Until the DRDO ATGM completes trials wanted Hellfire to provide interim capability LCH has integral laser sight.
DRDO won't press for it.
HAL won't unless told to.
IAF won't demand for it eats into Apache stocks!


I suspected as much.

As we have discussed on this forum before: Hellfire commonality with the Apaches and LCH would be the most obvious of features to ask for. Yet inter-organizational rivalries are preventing a unified single vision.

Hard to keep stress levels down dealing with such news.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 06 Jan 2021 06:09

^^^

HELINA (Dhruvastra) seems to be pretty close to being ready for induction.

INTERVIEW | Youngsters can power India into a defence technology leader: Dr Satheesh Reddy
Feb 14, 2020
...

This year the user trials of HELINA missile and man portable anti tank guided missile (MPATGM) will be completed.

...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Barath » 06 Jan 2021 06:24

Philip wrote:As someone suggested,the DRDO and DPSUs after having developed desi milware,should allow the pvt. sector to licence build the products,not hog the whole cake for themselves.


Why have DPSUs at all if they aren't doing the production ? Or ask why the private companies can't do whatever the DPSU does in development ? Who does the "license" in "license built" belong to for a product developed by DRDO ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 08 Jan 2021 16:17

HAL special issue
https://www.aeromag.in/Magazines/9848624845.pdf

We are presently producing ALH for 73 ALH contract. We will complete this production by 2022. Meanwhile, limited series production of LCH has been launched. We may supply 15 of these by 2022-23. We are expecting orders on LUH as all certification work has been completed. Indications are that LSP order for 12 LUH will be initiated soon


As per PBL contract for the16 ICG ALH, HAL needs to maintain an Overall Fleet Availability of 75% for a fleet of 16 ALH operating 540 hours per Helicopter per year from 04 bases for a period of 6.5 years

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby bharathp » 09 Jan 2021 10:32

Based on requirement from IAF, 2 LCHs of HAL were deployed at Leh in August 2020 for undertaking operational missions in support of IAF. These helicopters successfully demonstrated quick deployment to forward locations and operations in extreme temperatures prevalent in the area and able to operate in the complete Area of Responsibility (AOR).


status of LCH - GOI has not ordered it yet. its in "advanced stage of finalization".
There is an initial requirement indicated for 65 LCHs by Indian Air Force & 97 LCHs by Indian Army. The contract for 15 Limited Series Production (LSP) LCHs (10 LCHs for IAF and 5 LCHs for IA) is in advanced stage of finalization. As a proactive measure, HAL has launched production of LSPs and progressed with the equipping & integration activities towards flight tests in anticipation of orders which are expected shortly. Letter of Intent is received from IAF and Indian Army for delivery of five each LCH LSPs


expecting more orders on ALH, the production of limited series production LCH has already commenced. IAF and Army has already issued Letter of Intent for early delivery of 5 LCH each for operational exploitation at the earliest. Proactively, production activities have commenced at HAL and first helicopter has commenced ground run. Next four helicopters are also in advance stagesof equipping

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 12 Jan 2021 03:28

bharathp wrote:status of LCH - GOI has not ordered it yet. its in "advanced stage of finalization".

Reminds me of this bit of dialogue from Yes Minister:

James Hacker:
What's an official reply?

Bernard Woolley:
It just says "The Minister has asked me to thank you for your letter"; then we say something like "The matter is under consideration", or even, if we feel so inclined, "under active consideration."

James Hacker:
What's the difference?

Bernard Woolley:
Well, 'under consideration' means we've lost the file; 'under active consideration' means we're trying to find it.


"Advanced stage of finalization" in GoI speak means "We may decide to actually sign a contract, sometime in the next ten years. Or not."

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Jan 2021 05:58

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2021 13:27

Ha!Ha! What we need for the LCH is a confirmed order of 40+ to be delivered in 2-3 years time,with another 100+ for the future. Once the LCH enters serial production we can then tout it for export.I think costwise,we can get 3-4 LCHs for the cost of one Apache. The need for the system is now,not a decade from now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 19 Jan 2021 03:56

Home-grown rotary wing fleet to be in focus at AeroIndia

NEW DELHI: India plans to showcase its home-grown rotary-wing fleet, which has potential for exports to friendly foreign nations, as a centrepiece of the upcoming AeroIndia show that is set to be attended by over 35 foreign delegations. Indigenous platforms like the Light Combat Helicopter, a weaponised version of the Advanced Light Helicopter as well as the new Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) will be displayed prominently at the three-day show beginning February 3, which will also see a variety of home-grown aircraft flying, including the Tejas fighter jet and two sets of trainers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rajkumar » 23 Jan 2021 04:25

via Twitter

IOC version of Light Utility Helicopter has been handed over to @IAF_MCC and production of #LUH to commence from Aug'22 in a new facility near #Bengaluru which would replace ageing Cheetah-Chetak: HAL CMD R.Madhavan to @ABPNews

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 19266?s=20

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 23 Jan 2021 09:18

:D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arunsrinivasan » 24 Jan 2021 16:11


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ragupta » 24 Jan 2021 20:56

There must be standing order for domestic products that were developed/built based on armed forces requirement. Armed forces must be ready to accept and induct such platform as they would be either based on requirement or replacement of existing similar platform. Therefor LCH/LUH must be produced at peak production capacity, some can be donated for diplomacy.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 24 Jan 2021 22:14

arunsrinivasan wrote:HAL to deliver three Light Combat Helicopters before March 31


HAL delivering 3 lch without an order?

The GoI/MoD are really joking now

Not a single order for the LUH or LCH to date but they expect HAL to not only commence production but now deliver production units without even seeing a PENNY or having a formal contract? Name me 1 OEM in the world that would accept these conditions


No money they cry but when it comes to ordering 6 gold plated AH-64Es for the IA they can find it, need to lease MQ-9Bs? No problem.



This is absolutely despicable and no doubt HAL will continue to be blamed for the ‘delays’.


+ what is going on with LUH? IOC granted by IAF but production only commencing in August 2022?? Are the powers that be intentionally trying to keep the door open for ka-226?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 24 Jan 2021 22:49

^^^
... they expect HAL to not only commence production but now deliver production units without even seeing a PENNY or having a formal contract

I don't think they (ie, good number of really influential people) really want it to fly at all, TBH. It's just not going away, unfortunately.

If only we had even a little sensible and nationalistic opposition parties, they would have unearthed a real scandals such as these instead of flogging dead horses like Rafale and LAC.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby KSingh » 25 Jan 2021 00:19

basant wrote:^^^
... they expect HAL to not only commence production but now deliver production units without even seeing a PENNY or having a formal contract

I don't think they (ie, good number of really influential people) really want it to fly at all, TBH. It's just not going away, unfortunately.

If only we had even a little sensible and nationalistic opposition parties, they would have unearthed a real scandals such as these instead of flogging dead horses like Rafale and LAC.

Indeed, these are REAL scandals- HAL and many Indian private companies that are part of the LCH/LUH supply chain are being stunted for no discernible reason


Literally all they are wanting now is a signed contract, previously the MoD/service HQs could use development delays as an excuse for not ordering but as these efforts have matured they are now badly exposed. Where required imported deals are rushed through at breakneck speed and with little oversight but when it comes to Indian projects the bottleneck is almost entirely at contract/CCS level now.


Cannot fathom having the abilities that India has and flushing them down the basin like this

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2021 01:25

HAL needs to get paid for the LCH they built. The three will be used for creating operational procedures.

To my thinking, there won't be any import of light helicopters anymore and that's the delay in contracts.
The forces now know this hopefully and get on with the contracts.


If this continues RNS could recommend disbanding the entire procurement folks and bring new people.
almost all of their kundalis and gravy train has been mapped.


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