Indian Military Helicopters

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Atmavik
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 12 Feb 2021 22:05

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 17 Feb 2021 22:13

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 31874?s=20 ---> Ka-226T deal is held up due to shortfall in Russian offer for indigenous content. MoD is asking for 70 % indigenous content from Phase-2 production onwards. Russians have offered upto 62% indigenization, that too will come only in Phase-4 of production.

Ka-226T utility chopper has 33% indigenous content: HAL
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 769304.ece
06 Feb 2021

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Feb 2021 06:56

Rakesh wrote:Ka-226T utility chopper has 33% indigenous content: HAL
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 769304.ece
06 Feb 2021


From the above link:

“In Ka-226T when we talk of 70% indigenous content, it is not the same as the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) 52%. The 70% is of the Russian content. Engine from Safran and avionics from other countries are not accounted for in this. Balance is what we are looking and from there 70% is taken. Taking the whole helicopter, the indigenous content is about 27-33%,” he said in response to a question from The Hindu at Aero India.


From the above, it seems that engine and avionics imported from non-Russian sources are a significant parts of the helicopter's value. In that case, how can Russia offer indigenization of those items? For indigenizing these items, India will have to negotiate separately with their (presumably) western suppliers like Safran.

Or I am reading this incorrectly?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2021 07:33

The more you go deeply into this deal, the more murkier it gets.

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) is any day a better bird, technically and financially and even politically.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Feb 2021 07:36

Let's try
KA-226 100%: 30 % Foreign and 70% Russian
HAL 27 -33% of 70% Russian.
Foreign= 30%
Russian = 70-33= 37%
HAL= 33%

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Feb 2021 07:37

Ramana-ji, please visit the mod forum.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Feb 2021 07:39

Rakesh wrote:The more you go deeply into this deal, the more murkier it gets.

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) is any day a better bird, technically and financially and even politically.

HAL needs to talk in simple English.
Problem is they have LUH in hand
And at same time are partner in this KA deal.
So could be in their interest to say not viable.
Nation needs another Helicopter plant.
And can't let that fail.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2021 10:25

Rakesh wrote:The more you go deeply into this deal, the more murkier it gets.

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) is any day a better bird, technically and financially and even politically.

Any private company in this situation would come out and say that their own product is better than someone else's, even if they themselves would be assembling it. If the HAL chairman or helicopter division head comes out and says this unequivocally now, the government would find it very hard to go ahead with the Ka-226 deal while also touting Atmanirbhar Bharat etc. However HAL would be worried about what the baboos who control their purse strings would do if they take such a step.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby isubodh » 18 Feb 2021 11:49

nachiket wrote:
Rakesh wrote:The more you go deeply into this deal, the more murkier it gets.

HAL's Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) is any day a better bird, technically and financially and even politically.

Any However HAL would be worried about what the baboos who control their purse strings would do if they take such a step.


They are not going public, but that doesn't mean they are not pushing for it. They too have CV to show off for promotion. But HAL would be split as some would be fine assembling Ka226 to show turnover in CV.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Feb 2021 13:12

Nachiket, The big idea is to create second source Aviation company.
Starting with helicopters.
Tata will get C 295 transport.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Feb 2021 13:32

isubodh wrote:They are not going public, but that doesn't mean they are not pushing for it. They too have CV to show off for promotion. But HAL would be split as some would be fine assembling Ka226 to show turnover in CV.


If the GOI/MOD is serious about Atmanirbhar, then they need to do 2 things:

1) Include light utility copters in the "no import" list. That'll kick KA-226 out
2) Have a separate line item in HAL's performance for IDDM. If X% of your output is IDDM, you get Y% bonus. Set increasing targets for X. This way, HAL is not "incentivized" to do screwdriver-giri and claim success

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2021 13:38

ramana wrote:Nachiket, The big idea is to create second source Aviation company.
Starting with helicopters.
Tata will get C 295 transport.

But where is the second company? It is HAL itself assembling a foreign helo. Not much different than all the fighters it has assembled over the years. At least back then we did not have any indigenous alternatives which could do the same job. This would be like HAL assembling Pilatus trainers alongside the HTT-40. Completely pointless, unless the Russians are selling us the complete know-how (and know-why) of their coaxial rotor technology. We know that is not about to happen.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 18 Feb 2021 14:21

I don't think the Ka 226 can be cancelled directly. There are optics issues involved, given that this was done at head of state level.
So what HAL is doing is the time tested MTA/ FGFA tactics - keep doing chai biscoot negotiations forever, and then eventually have the IAF force them to drop it because a better alternative is available.
So everybody saves face, nothing gets done, and babus get a few foreign trips.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby basant » 18 Feb 2021 14:35

I like Rafale approach. Wait for long and buy only a couple of squadron citing whatever issue.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby YashG » 18 Feb 2021 14:57

srin wrote:I don't think the Ka 226 can be cancelled directly. There are optics issues involved, given that this was done at head of state level.
So what HAL is doing is the time tested MTA/ FGFA tactics - keep doing chai biscoot negotiations forever, and then eventually have the IAF force them to drop it because a better alternative is available.
So everybody saves face, nothing gets done, and babus get a few foreign trips.


Totally, KA-226 is dead on arrival. I agree HAL is buying time for LUH. I feel MoD may have also come around on the issue. LUH is a fine helo!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby AkshaySG » 18 Feb 2021 15:40

basant wrote:I like Rafale approach. Wait for long and buy only a couple of squadron citing whatever issue.


That approach also "wastes" quite a lot of years tbh, Yes low Rafales open up space for Mk2/MWF but the delay means that you're spending 12-15 years on evaluating, negotiating, building a product with the end result being few numbers and having expensive upgrades to eek out life from older birds.

Now that HAL's products are in direct competition it's a clear conflict of interest to have them be the TOT/Indian partner... They obviously want their own product to do well and that can lead to unnecessary delays. Better to try to get private players and other firms involved.

If they're 're so worried about minor percentages of domestic content then just choose the indigenous option (LUH)... Otherwise this whole TOT negotiation is a sorry old saga that never goes anywhere.

Its like going to a restaurant and telling them I don't like anything on your menu but here's some groceries and so please cook me this other recipe.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby yensoy » 18 Feb 2021 17:21

1. Twin engine
2. Twin rotor (no tail rotor)
These were the reasons to pick the Kamov, especially for the Navy. LUH does not address those; but yes Kamovs can be purchased in small quantities for niche roles & to keep the P5 member fed.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Feb 2021 17:29

Were twin engine & twin rotor requirements in the LUH RFP?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 18 Feb 2021 17:59

yensoy wrote:1. Twin engine
2. Twin rotor (no tail rotor)
These were the reasons to pick the Kamov, especially for the Navy. LUH does not address those; but yes Kamovs can be purchased in small quantities for niche roles & to keep the P5 member fed.

The current deal is for the Army and AF. The Ka-226 has not been selected for any Navy requirement as of now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Avinandan » 18 Feb 2021 18:01

Not at all, other it would have been the sole competitor, in fact earlier Eurocopter Fennec (Single Engine) was selected for LUH requirement earlier..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby yensoy » 18 Feb 2021 19:49

Oh ok, sorry got confused. Yes, LUH as Chetak/Cheetah replacement is what is being discussed here. Not the bigger? Kamov which is in service with IN for ASW roles.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Avinandan » 18 Feb 2021 20:13

Kamov-28/31 are not getting replaced right now, rather some new orders were supposed to be placed couple of years back.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/defence-ministry-indian-navy-russia-kamov-31-helicopters-1516576-2019-05-03

The much older Sea Kings are being replaced by MH-60R Romeo.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 22 Feb 2021 14:33

Bit Dated, but posting for records..

Exclusive Interview: S Anbuvelan, CEO HAL, Helicopter Complex
Nov 17, 2020 - : 6:29 am


Here at HAL, we are positive that taking all current and future orders into account, for all variants (including civil), production of Dhruv helicopters will touch the 500 mark.


Image

https://gbp.com.sg/stories/exclusive-interview-s-anbuvelan-ceo-hal-helicopter-complex/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 22 Feb 2021 19:39

Big Announcements. ~Rs70Kcr for Def capital proc during 2021-22. Rs1Kcr for proc of startup products. New negative list in Mar. ~10 midsize projects for industry in Apr. LCH order shortly & LUH by Aug 2022
@SIDMIndia @phdchamber @ASSOCHAM4India @ficci_india @India_iDEX @VishForge

https://twitter.com/drajaykumar_ias/sta ... 66112?s=19

New negative list in Mar
LCH order shortly &
LUH by Aug 2022

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jamwal » 22 Feb 2021 20:13

https://www.rajnathsingh.in/speeches-in ... ha-mantri/

Union Budget 2021-22 is a healthy mix of promise, potential, and progress: Raksha Mantri
Towards this goal, Ministry of Defence has taken many steps, one of the important one beingbifurcation of capital procurement budget into domestic and foreign capital procurement routes, to ensure procurement from domestic industries. My Ministry has planned to invest,about 63% of the outlay for 2021-22 on domestic procurement,i.e.about Rs.70221 Crore for domestic defence procurement during for 2021-22. This increase will have a positive impact on enhanced domestic procurement, having multiplier effect on our industries including MSMEs and Start-ups. It would also increase the employment in defence sector.



In order to promote indigenous design and development of defence equipment , ‘Buy (Indian-IDDM) has been accorded topmost priority , for procurement of capital equipment in DAP 2020.During current financial year, Rs. 75000 Crore worth AoNs have been accorded out of which 87% relate to Make in India.

Ministry is also working on bringing down the delays in timelines of capital acquisition. We will make efforts to complete the defence acquisition within 2 years, instead of the existing 3-4 years being taken on the average.

As you are aware, Ministry of Defence has notified a ‘Negative list’ of 101 items for which there would be an embargo on the import beyond the timeline indicated against them. This is a big step towards achieving self-reliance in defence. This would offer a great opportunity to the Indian defence industry to manufacture these items using their own design and development capabilities to meet the requirements of the Armed Forces in the coming years. The negative list provides a long-term visibility on defence procurement plans. This shows our resolve towards Atmanirbhar Bharat.We now intend to notify the next list of items and would also request Secretary DMA that they should also consider including certain spares currently being procured from outside so that we could indigenize the same. I look forward to the discussion on this subject later today.

Friends, as you may be aware, the ‘Make’ Procedure of capital procurement has been progressively simplified. There is a provision for funding up to 70% of development cost by the Government to Indian industry under Make-I category. In addition, there are specific reservations for MSMEs under the ‘Make’ procedure. Recently, Financial powers have also been enhanced to support prototype development under ‘Make-I’. This is in line with Government’s vision of ‘Aatmanirbhar Bharat’ and ‘Make in India’ for a robust defence industrial ecosystem.
[/quote]

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bharadwaj » 22 Feb 2021 20:18

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1699992


In his closing remarks, Raksha Mantri responding to their proposals, made the following announcements:

1. Another list of items that will be not be imported to be notified in March 2021.

2. The Letter of Intent (LoI) for Light Utility Helicopters (LUH) will be given to HAL so that the helicopters can be inducted into the Armed Forces coinciding with the 75th Anniversary of India’s Independence.

3. Procurement from private sector will not be limited to 15 per cent but will go much beyond that.

4. The ‘AON’ contract conversion would be completed within two years under close monitoring.

5. Projects worth Rs 500 crore to Rs 2,000 crore will be announced on competitive basis and will be finalised within one year.

6. A “Fund of Funds” worth Rs 10,000 crore has been created for Start-ups and MSMEs. Complete support would be provided to the Defence and Aerospace sector in utilising the fund.

7. Acceptance in principle would be accorded for at least five Make-1 projects this year.




Time for lungi dance :D What I suspect this means is a repeat of the LCH procedure that has involved the forces taking the helicopter before the order goes through the usual long winded procedure. HAL CMD did say in a interview that the first LUH will be ready by AUG 22.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 23 Feb 2021 02:53

...

3. Procurement from private sector will not be limited to 15 per cent but will go much beyond that.

...


GoI can achieve Strategic Partnership model with domestic aircraft and helicopters. Many Tier-1 to 3 private aerospace companies could be nurtured via HAL/NAL/DRDO outsourcing sub-assemblies, components and parts for ALH, LCH, LUH, IMRH, HTT-40, HJT-36, LCA, MWF, AMCA, Saras, UCAV, RTA, etc. Eventually setup full fledged assembly lines with the private players to augment capacities.

No need to seek foreign products for SP.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 27 Feb 2021 10:35

Not sure if this awesome video of Dhruv was shared here. @ 2.28 you will see a familiar face :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5QmyayD36Y


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vimal » 27 Feb 2021 12:50

Wow! Didn't know Namo got a ride in ALH

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Picklu » 02 Mar 2021 17:27

Like the current plan of leasing of naval helo. Allows us to save capex in the interim and spend it later to acquire Naval Dhruv once the the blade and tail folding is certified. Leasing for few years would be even cheaper than acquiring second hand and continue to pay for the additional type till their retirement. This way the new type remains a stopgap for few years and then offboarded as soon as naval Dhruv is available in numbers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cain Marko » 02 Mar 2021 22:10

^leasing airframes from other inventories can have another useful advantage - no lead times and therefore, quicker induction. Very useful in the present circumstances.


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