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Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2017 11:20

Design and testing winding up, if I understand what Thakur meant correctly.

If we can find out if the powerplant has been explored, then it will probably show movement soon.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2017 11:31

I agree Thakur_b. LCH, LUH and Rudra were prioritized over IMRH. Now that all those designs are either in production or flight-testing, the design team has shifted focus to the IMRH. HAL did send out tenders for purchasing MAIN ROTOR WHIRL TOWER OF 10-12T CAPACITY a few months back.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neela » 07 Feb 2017 11:40

Any guesses on the engine choice for IMRH?
All equivalent helis in this category need r 2 x ~1500 kw engines

HAL 's HTSE will not cut it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 07 Feb 2017 12:29

Neela wrote:Any guesses on the engine choice for IMRH?
All equivalent helis in this category need r 2 x ~1500 kw engines

HAL 's HTSE will not cut it.


Why not a 3 engine configuration like a AW-101 with 3 HTSE-1200 engine?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 07 Feb 2017 12:48

Neela wrote:Any guesses on the engine choice for IMRH?
All equivalent helis in this category need r 2 x ~1500 kw engines

HAL 's HTSE will not cut it.


They can build HTSE 1500.

First target is to get the core certified for HTFE and HTSE. Up/down thrusting is not that difficult one you have a good core.

But we don't know how much priority and funding HTSE/HTFE are getting. If they really push for it, the engines would be there in next 2-3yrs or so (assuming they have already covered some ground. HTFE we know they have. I do not know status of HTSE though). Give couple of yrs for maturing/other variants. In 5-6yr time frame we can have first heli with desi engine on it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 07 Feb 2017 13:00

Horizontal stabilizer is designed for easy tail folding in IN version. It is goodbye to NMRH tender if IMRH is on by 2022.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 07 Feb 2017 14:39

What are HTSE and HTFE

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 07 Feb 2017 16:25

The tender means that IMRH will be restricted to 12T MTOW.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neela » 07 Feb 2017 16:25

shiv wrote:What are HTSE and HTFE

HAL's own engine development program.
HTFE - HAL's Turbo Fan engine (1200kW) . Prototype done, trial run done. Target mkt: trainers and business jets
HTSE - HAL's Turbo Shaft engine (1200kw) . Design and development has started. Target market upto 3.5T single engine helis. Upto 10T in twin engine configuration.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 07 Feb 2017 16:29

sankum wrote:The tender means that IMRH will be restricted to 12T MTOW.


Can any one confirm looking at the tender document.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Snehashis » 07 Feb 2017 17:59

Neela wrote:Any guesses on the engine choice for IMRH?
All equivalent helis in this category need r 2 x ~1500 kw engines

HAL 's HTSE will not cut it.



We can use Turbomeca Ardiden 3G. It will offer some commonalities with Turbomeca Ardiden 1 already in Indian service.

http://www.deagel.com/Helicopter-Turbos ... 26002.aspx

Max Power at TakeOff: 2,000 shp (1,492 kW)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2017 20:32

Too low power from 3g. Rtm 322 the 3000 shp variety or pw127 will probably be chosen. IA will mandate crazy loading at altitude, and ridiculous hot and high power. Will need a pretty high power class engine.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 07 Feb 2017 20:50

Cybaru wrote:Too low power from 3g. Rtm 322 the 3000 shp variety or pw127 will probably be chosen. IA will mandate crazy loading at altitude, and ridiculous hot and high power. Will need a pretty high power class engine.

Has the IA/IAF/IN come out with the ASR for the IMRH?? A quick google search does not show anything from the IAF, but does show ICG and IN requirements.

With the ongoing turf battles between the IA and IAF, its very possible that the IAF would be the one calling the shots on this and would likely ask for the moon considering how happy they are with the Mi17 series.
Just my 2 paisa..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 07 Feb 2017 21:05

Indranil posted sometime back: IA needs ~10 ton and IN ~12 ton craft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sid » 08 Feb 2017 01:16

Cybaru wrote:Too low power from 3g. Rtm 322 the 3000 shp variety or pw127 will probably be chosen. IA will mandate crazy loading at altitude, and ridiculous hot and high power. Will need a pretty high power class engine.


I think that should be understandable.

HAL is now mature in terms of Heli division, and their main users should feel empowered to ask what they actually need. Not something which they already have or can have from proven vendors.

Since HAL has provided ALH/LUH/LCH, all very capable machine in extreme high altitudes, they should be able to deliver such requests for IMRH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 08 Feb 2017 04:58

LCH TD4

Image

image courtesy Tarmak

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 08 Feb 2017 06:18

Is there plans to make PV's and LSPs or just TD and production?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 08 Feb 2017 08:50

Katare wrote:Is there plans to make PV's and LSPs or just TD and production?

Same question from me too.. How does HAL plan to move ahead with the LCH and LUH???

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2017 09:07

LCH: four TDs followed by serial production. Limited serial production has began as the airframe has received all clearances.

LUH: same plan. They are trying to get certification by end of 2018. That is a very aggressive schedule though. I forget if it was three or four TDs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby NRao » 08 Feb 2017 09:39

Katare wrote:Is there plans to make PV's and LSPs or just TD and production?


More time normally means less risk. More risk normally translates into some amount of loss of material and life.

IF any of the Indian efforts were to encounter loss of material/life, I would imagine it could mean the end of that effort. So, a lot of efforts will take a lot of time.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 08 Feb 2017 09:45

Indranil wrote:LCH: four TDs followed by serial production. Limited serial production has began as the airframe has received all clearances.

LUH: same plan. They are trying to get certification by end of 2018. That is a very aggressive schedule though. I forget if it was three or four TDs.


From what I hear, they should be able to do it. Some big challenges have been overcome. Though the LUH testing has not received the coverage HTT 40 has, it is being done regularly. I had the pleasure of witnessing the testing on 03 separate occasions (one this week) and from where I stand it looks good.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 08 Feb 2017 11:24

Sorry for asking a basic question, but unable to find a clear answer to this - Is Indian Multi-Role Helicopter (IMRH) going to be indigenous product like Dhruv/LCH/LUH OR a joint venture with foreign(Russian?) companies is planned ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 08 Feb 2017 11:46

Katare wrote:Is there plans to make PV's and LSPs or just TD and production?


To add to what IR said, LCH SP are already in production. HAL went ahead expecting orders and there are now 10 on orders IIRC.

Since HAL has got better in Helis by now, they don't need LSP there. Also the project requirements are not as dynamically changing as was the case for LCA. So by last TD they reach production standard.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 08 Feb 2017 11:50

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:LCH: four TDs followed by serial production. Limited serial production has began as the airframe has received all clearances.

LUH: same plan. They are trying to get certification by end of 2018. That is a very aggressive schedule though. I forget if it was three or four TDs.


From what I hear, they should be able to do it. Some big challenges have been overcome. Though the LUH testing has not received the coverage HTT 40 has, it is being done regularly. I had the pleasure of witnessing the testing on 03 separate occasions (one this week) and from where I stand it looks good.


The LUH team is working very hard, pulling 12+ hrs daily, from what I heard from someone whose spouse is working in LUH on a senior post. They were running behind schedule initially, but they should be able to get it done in time or with slight delay. Fingers crossed.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 08 Feb 2017 11:54

JayS wrote:...

The LUH team is working very hard, pulling 12+ hrs daily, from what I heard from someone whose spouse is working in LUH on a senior post. They were running behind schedule initially, but they should be able to get it done in time or with slight delay. Fingers crossed.


Yes indeed. One of the main test pilots is mentor to me. I understand it is exactly as you described.

The rotary wing division has established a reputation for being a well oiled machine within HAL and at ASTE.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 08 Feb 2017 12:01

What do your sources say about imrh?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 08 Feb 2017 12:10

Cybaru wrote:What do your sources say about imrh?


Sorry. I try not to ask on programmes with folks I know unless voluntarily disclosed. Quite often they become distinctly uncomfortable.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 08 Feb 2017 14:30

The IMRH looks like a larger ALH. Happy to see a family look shared by LUH, ALH and this one.

HAL will have to decide at outset whether it has naval application as it will influence the design.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2017 15:08

deejay wrote:
Cybaru wrote:What do your sources say about imrh?


Sorry. I try not to ask on programmes with folks I know unless voluntarily disclosed. Quite often they become distinctly uncomfortable.

My late cousin Suresh used to absolutely clam up when I was a teenager/young man asking too many probing questions. Eventually he would put on a comical grin and say that "I don't not need to know and do not know". In fact his attitude gradually attuned me not to probe too deep into areas that should remain confidential only because I don't need to know. So long as those who don't need to know remain ignorant - confidentiality is more likely to be maintained.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 08 Feb 2017 15:22

shiv wrote: In fact his attitude gradually attuned me not to probe too deep into areas that should remain confidential only because I don't need to know. So long as those who don't need to know remain ignorant - confidentiality is more likely to be maintained.

Something I am still trying to grasp my head around..
Sorry about the OT..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2017 15:35

Bala Vignesh wrote:Something I am still trying to grasp my head around..
Sorry about the OT..

Simple. If someone tortures you or me and tries to get India's deepest secrets out of us - it will fail because neither of us knows. If I knew I would splil the beans the moment a hot iron was applied against my balls.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 08 Feb 2017 15:46

IDRW is reporting that "with LCH TD4, LCH airframe design has been frozen" and "HAL has started to work on 5 Light Combat helicopter (LCH) which are of Limited serial production standard".

Talk about ambivalent reporting! :eek:

These guys are clearly following the discussion on BRF and then cooking up stories quoting 'sources'.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 08 Feb 2017 19:21

In fact this 10t requirement has been there for over a decade,with our Sea Kings long in the tooth.Had we started aprogramme a decad eago,with some external help,we could've had the birds in production by now.WE now have a shortage of approx. 200 naval helos of all types,light,med. and heavy. There is also little news from the MOD/IN/budget that any provisions have been made for them. The new multi-role helo should be designed from the outset for all 3 services,plus a a civilian application too. It is amazing that for such large country as ours,with so many hill stations and remote areas to serve,plus offshore oil platforms too,we have no regular helo service/entity worth talking about.

So we will have subs without torpedoes being inducted and surface ships without ASW/MR helos,great going. And we're trying to obtain amphibs too! If we're upgrading virtually all KA-28s,why not acquire some of them brand new,becos just a few years down the line,the entire lot will have to be replaced. IF half those of the type are new ones,the IN/service will not be up the creek without a paddle as we are with the LUH farce.
Upgrades of any type should also be accompanied by orders for new ones. The only helo deal that seems to be going smoothly is the IA's acquisition in large numbers of MI-17Vs and now using them for the VVIP role too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2017 20:38

Don't worry Philip - we will soon get Ospreys with their spectacular safety record

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 08 Feb 2017 21:28

what is it that a LOH type heli can do which cannot be done by a Reaper sized drone better?

I have a feeling the "observation" game is going all unmanned.

"control" might be airborne like a large awacs, or downlinked like a uav or aew or fac role.

"strike" could be a pint sized swarm released from a box dropped off into cover by drones earlier or a PGS type weapon from 1000s of kilometers away - just as you cannot manage a vast public cloud like AWS or Azure with its millions of web requests per second, 1000s of admin operations per minute, 100s of VMs being created or destroyed per minute one cannot manage the scale of future combat via the old ways of a bunch of guys with laptops and phones sitting inside a khanish field tent. as these high automated and functional clouds divide the problem into "resource pools" - cpu, network, storage, tenant policies and programatically match provisioning to demand so too the sensor/shooter/observation problem will be largely SW driven and AI logic encased in the future, the "bomb truck" platform releasing a missile 100s of km away might not even be part of the system which locates and programs/designates the target for the missiles and target re-allocation inflight will be the norm. swarms of different missiles will be in flight , swarms of targets will be tracked per second and pairings done on the fly without much human intervention.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 08 Feb 2017 21:38

So I hear that someone on the frontline modified local quadcopters to drop grenades. All local jugaad only. If you spot trouble then drop the grenade too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Feb 2017 22:59

Singha wrote:"strike" could be a pint sized swarm released from a box dropped off into cover by drones earlier or a PGS type weapon from 1000s of kilometers away - just as you cannot manage a vast public cloud like AWS or Azure with its millions of web requests per second, 1000s of admin operations per minute, 100s of VMs being created or destroyed per minute one cannot manage the scale of future combat via the old ways of a bunch of guys with laptops and phones sitting inside a khanish field tent. as these high automated and functional clouds divide the problem into "resource pools" - cpu, network, storage, tenant policies and programatically match provisioning to demand so too the sensor/shooter/observation problem will be largely SW driven and AI logic encased in the future, the "bomb truck" platform releasing a missile 100s of km away might not even be part of the system which locates and programs/designates the target for the missiles and target re-allocation inflight will be the norm. swarms of different missiles will be in flight , swarms of targets will be tracked per second and pairings done on the fly without much human intervention.

:mrgreen:


This sounds like a geek's dream but I am a sceptic when it comes to such ideas. I doubt if oversize dragonfly swarms will make much of a difference overall. Take Pakistan for instance. LeT can mobilize 200,000 men -. What will they send? 200,000 drones?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 09 Feb 2017 06:25

Analysis- India sets sights on rotorcraft upgrade

...

The LUH is a new 3t single-engined helicopter designed and developed by HAL to meet the RSH requirement. The LUH made its maiden flight in September 2016 and developmental testing is under way.

Series production of the LUH is slated to begin in 2018, at a new manufacturing facility to be built at Tumkur, about 150km (90 miles) from Bengaluru. A production run of 187 LUH rotorcraft has been approved.

..

The LUH is powered by a Safran HE Ardiden-1U engine developing 750kW. The Ardiden 1U was selected in 2014 and engine certification is planned for 2018. The engine is a derivative of the Ardiden 1H1, which was co-developed by Safran and HAL and is known lokally as the Shakti.

The LUH, design and development of which started in early 2009, has a maximum all-up-weight (AUW) of 3,150kg and a range of 350km. It will carry six passengers and two pilots.

Deliveries of HAL’s Dhruv, a 5t-class helicopter, to the armed forces continues and all 159 on order will be delivered by 2018. Additional orders are likely to keep the production line running into the 2020s. HAL is now building 24 helicopters a year. Dhruv MkIII examples now being delivered are available with an Israeli-built forward-looking infrared (FLIR) pod.

At present the most advanced variant is the Dhruv Mk IV Weapon System Integrated (WSI), also known as Rudra. HAL has plans to develop a MkV which will be an update of the MkIII utility variant with improvements to the main gearbox, updated avionics and improved aerodynamics.

Another aspect that has emerged with the indigenous helicopters such as Dhruv, Rudra and LCH is that the Indian armed forces have now firmly incorporated simulators into their training philosophies for these helicopters.

Simulator training is now being undertaken by all military and paramilitary users of Dhruv.

“We are planning to induct the Rudra WSI cockpit for training in 2018 and we will be bidding for the LCH and LUH simulators,” says Wg Cdr (retd) Krishna, the chief executive of Helicopter Academy to Train by Simulation of Flying (HATSOFF), a joint venture between HAL and CAE of Canada. In the 2016 fiscal year the Dhruv (conventional) Level D simulator at HATSOFF was used for 2,200h.


..

A mid-life upgrade for 90 Mi-17 series helicopters has also been proposed by the air force.


..

The LCH is a tandem-seat attack helicopter being designed to stringent air force and army requirements for a high-altitude attack helicopter, and makes extensive use of the experience gained from the Dhruv MkIII and MkIV variants.

“We have proved the basic airframe and we already have the experience of weapons integration which we performed on the Rudra,” says HAL chairman Suvarna Raju. “Now we have declared that the LCH is ready for induction depending on the weapons selection by the individual customer.” The LCH has been designed to operate at 10,000-12,000ft with an armaments load on its weapon stub wing/armament boom.

Commenting on the completion of weapons integration, which also requires the finalisation of the armament load by the user, Raju says: “Instead of waiting for weapons integration and declaration of initial operational capability [IOC], which is specific to Indian services, we went ahead and proved the basic platform at different altitudes and have completed hot and cold weather trials.”


The two weapon stations on either side of the LCH can carry anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs), rockets or air-to-air missiles. An MBDA spokesman tells FlightGlobal: “The Mistral ATAM launcher has already been integrated on the Rudra and successful test firings have been carried out. Integration on the LCH is under way and progressing as per schedule.”

The LCH is also fitted with a slewable electro-optical sighting system, helmet pointing system, radar/laser missile warning system and countermeasures dispensing system (CMDS). A Nexter THL20 turret gun is also standard on all LCHs.

..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 09 Feb 2017 06:58

some very interesting research by Safran into hybrid power for helicopters, to allow for smaller engines to be used.

LONDON—Safran has begun studies into the use of hybrid power on helicopters as a solution to cut fuel consumption.

The French company believes that the right-sizing of engines and the addition of a turbine-electric hybrid power system could cut fuel consumption by 10-15%.

“The main issue in twin-engine helicopters is the fact that the engine is sized for one-engine inoperative (OEI) flight,” says Cyrille Poetsche, EVP for Programs at Safran Helicopter Engines—formerly Turbomeca. Engine failures on helicopters are infrequent, and engines are not fully optimized for the size of the helicopter.

Now Safran is looking to see whether the energy that would be needed in the event of an engine failure can be provided to the gearbox in a different way.

“Engines are overpowered by a ratio of 20% to meet OEI operations,” Poetsche says.

This could mean that a helicopter such as the Super Puma, currently powered by the 1,877 shp Makila 1A1, could perhaps be powered by the lighter 1,400 shp Ardiden 3 engine, with hybrid systems providing additional power when needed.

Poetsche says the studies are being conducted with several other Safran companies including the electronics and defense element of the company, formerly known as Sagem. Such a system would likely require advanced batteries and motors to provide the energy to the gearbox.
“We just need to convince the pilots that it is safe,” Poetsche says.


...

But work is continuing on the 2,000-3,200 shp Tech3000, a derivative of the RTM322 which Safran hopes will power the next generation of 8-15 metric ton helicopters.

The company has already tested a new compressor and low-pressure turbine, and later this year it will test a new hot-section and high-pressure blades. The engines will likely power Airbus’ new X6 replacement for the Super Puma-family of helicopters, but Poetsche says there are other prospects too.
..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 09 Feb 2017 08:38

Good post Kartik, thanks for sharing. Hybrid power method might be very useful in our case, when we continuously need power for higher altitudes. This way we don't have to send the manufacturer back to drawing board to increase power to an engine by 10-15%, which seems to always be the case for our requirements, but use this hybrid mode to make up for lack of power in high altitude flying. Might even allow for ALH to have enough higher payload loading at high altitudes.


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