Indian Military Helicopters

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 07 Sep 2015 23:47

Kamov 226T Production in India
Decision Left to Indian Government

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Sep 2015 18:38

PSV High Speed Helicopter

Do we know if HAL is doing any research on Heli rotors to improve their efficiency?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Sep 2015 09:43

Unhappy Australia Joins Study of Tiger Attack Helicopter Upgrade

Australia has joined France, Germany and Spain in planning a mid-life upgrade (MLU) for the Tiger ARH (attack and reconnaissance helicopter) made by Airbus Helicopters. The MLU could save the Tiger helicopter in Australia, where the defense department has not been happy with its serviceability and support.

It has said that the army’s 22 Tigers could be replaced if their performance does not meet requirements by the time of its Combat Assurance Program in 2019. The MLU is planned to be available from that year, with the modified helicopters designated the Tiger Mk3.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Sep 2015 09:47

Viv S wrote:Unhappy Australia Joins Study of Tiger Attack Helicopter Upgrade

Australia has joined France, Germany and Spain in planning a mid-life upgrade (MLU) for the Tiger ARH (attack and reconnaissance helicopter) made by Airbus Helicopters. The MLU could save the Tiger helicopter in Australia, where the defense department has not been happy with its serviceability and support.

It has said that the army’s 22 Tigers could be replaced if their performance does not meet requirements by the time of its Combat Assurance Program in 2019. The MLU is planned to be available from that year, with the modified helicopters designated the Tiger Mk3.

Viv S this thread is "Indian Military Helicopters"

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 13 Sep 2015 10:19

May be he meant a chance for the Australians to fly the LCH.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Sep 2015 11:15

The LCH has enormous potential for exports.The LCH should be exhibited at all major air shows/def-expos worldwide. The delay in the sealing of the Chinooks and Apaches ,perhaps because of the increasing cost factor and Rupee slide,means that LCH development and production needs to be accelerated faster as our older MI-35s are also getting long in the tooth. The extra MI-17Vs are very welcome and the armed versions will help a lot,but these will be more useful in airborne assault ops not as tank-busters in conjunction with the spearheading armoured columns of T-90s and Arjuns.
The potential exists for at least a few hundred LCHs for the services plus another 100+ for export. The attempt should start right now. Countries like Vietnam,etc. ,where our defence relationship is gathering apace,with the GOI also providing Vietnam $100M for naval credit.The GOI could add some more credit for helos,etc. This will give a boost to sales in the ASEAN region where we are well received.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 13 Sep 2015 11:35

shiv wrote:Viv S this thread is "Indian Military Helicopters"

Around 2019, Australia will take a decision on whether to replace or upgrade their Tigers. Admittedly, its a very long shot for the LCH, especially since our DPSUs seem to have little interest in exports, but I thought it was still worth mentioning on the thread.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 18 Sep 2015 17:10

HAL's LCH: Made in India combat helicopter eyes weapon firing trials.

Giving a leg up to the focus on indigenous defence production, India's Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) is now eyeing weapon-based trials with its fourth technology demonstrator, TD-4. The weapon firing trials are planned for the middle of 2016.

The LCH is a twin-engine helicopter of 5.8-ton class designed and developed by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to meet the requirements of Indian defence forces. LCH was proposed to meet IAF's requirement of a dedicated light helicopter for combat operations.

HAL claims that the LCH is designed to carry out dedicated combat roles such as Air Defence, anti-tank, scout and support combat search/rescue missions. It incorporates a number of stealth features such as reduced visual, aural, radar and infra-red signatures and crashworthy landing gear, armour protection for better survivability. The helicopter is powered by two Shakti engines. There are plans to produce LCH in large numbers to meet the operational requirements.

"TD-4 has been planned to facilitate accelerated weapon flight trials. TD-4 is getting ready and would be available for weapon trials soon," HAL's CMD, T Suvarna Raju told Economictimes.com. According to him, the TD-4 has been built as the weight optimised prototype of the LCH, which would be "most suited" for weapon trials.

Further, weapon trials will continue in line with the specific requirement of customers. HAL is pursuing with customers for production orders and induction timelines will dependent on these orders. Suvarana Raju says that enquiries have been received from other countries during this year's Aero-India.

So, are there any specific improvements that HAL is eyeing for the LCH?

"LCH Design and Development program has progressed with incremental improvements in each prototype from TD-1 through TD-4. Based on the feedback from flight trials, various improvements have been made to fine tune handling qualities, speed and vibration...further improvements would be planned in coordination with the users," Suvarna Raju said.

When will the LCH get Initial Operational Clearance?

The combat helicopter has recently completed a series of all weather (hot and high altitude, sea level, cold weather and hot weather) trials. HAL hopes that the helicopter will get basic clearance by the end of this month. "With the hot and high altitude trials successfully completed at Leh in August 2015, the performance and handling characteristics of the basic helicopter have been established, and the clearance for the basic configuration of LCH is expected by September 2015," (Just 12 days to go) said HAL's CMD.

Extensive trials have been carried out on three prototypes at Bengaluru, sea level at Chennai in November 2013, cold weather at Leh during January-February 2015, hot weather at Jodhpur in July 2015 and hot and high altitude trials at a few days ago at Leh. LCH is the first attack helicopter to land in Forward Bases at Siachen.

LCH-TD-1 was first flown on March 29, 2010 and LCH-TD-2 was flown on June 28, 2011. The TD-3 made its successful maiden flight in 2014.

HAL says that the performance and handling qualities of the helicopter have been established for basic configuration (with EO Pod, rocket launchers, turret gun and air-to-air missile launchers). In all HAL is expected to produce/manufacture 179 LCH for Indian Defence forces

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Sep 2015 18:09

With such a large orderbook/requirement,the DRDO/HAL should also rope in desi pvt. entities for manufacture under licence if it cannot ramp up production to at least 24-30+/yr.The requirement should exceed 200 for the IAF/IA alone and if exports are pushed hard to friendly nations, another 100 easily.The LCH should follow on the success mantra of the ALH.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 18 Sep 2015 22:41

HAL should stop referring further LCH prototypes as 'Technology Demonstrators'. Unless they have a plan to construct PVs prior to production

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 19 Sep 2015 02:44

Philip wrote:The LCH has enormous potential for exports.The LCH should be exhibited at all major air shows/def-expos worldwide. The delay in the sealing of the Chinooks and Apaches ,perhaps because of the increasing cost factor and Rupee slide,means that LCH development and production needs to be accelerated faster as our older MI-35s are also getting long in the tooth. The extra MI-17Vs are very welcome and the armed versions will help a lot,but these will be more useful in airborne assault ops not as tank-busters in conjunction with the spearheading armoured columns of T-90s and Arjuns.
The potential exists for at least a few hundred LCHs for the services plus another 100+ for export. The attempt should start right now. Countries like Vietnam,etc. ,where our defence relationship is gathering apace,with the GOI also providing Vietnam $100M for naval credit.The GOI could add some more credit for helos,etc. This will give a boost to sales in the ASEAN region where we are well received.

Kurdistan needs Chopper to fight separate , independent Mobile war against terrorists.

eklavya · Post by **eklavya** » 19 Sep 2015 03:19

Ahead of Modi's visit, India set to buy choppers worth $3bn from US

Ahead of Modi's visit, India set to buy choppers worth $3bn from US

The finance ministry has finally given a green signal to acquisition of 22 Apache attack and 15 Chinook heavy deployment helicopters worth $3.1 billion from US defence major Boeing after a delay of nearly three years and 13 price extensions.

The deal is expected to cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) next Tuesday, before Prime Minister Narendra Modi embarks on his United Nations General Assembly visit to New York.

With Boeing and US Army Security Assistance Command threatening to escalate the price after September 30 by nearly 40% after holding it steady since 2009, finance minister Arun Jaitley, defence minister Manohar Parrikar and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval put their heads together this week.

“We have conveyed our no objections to the deal being considered by the CCS,” said a senior finance ministry official.

India plans to purchase 22 Apache AH 64D Longbow helicopters with purchase option of another 11 at the cost of $2 billion. This state-of-the-art attack helicopter will be acquired with Hell Fire missiles and around 8,000 rockets.

The helicopter has night vision capability, stealth characteristics and beyond visual range missiles.

Apart from this, India will acquire 15 CH-47 Chinook helicopters with options of another six at the cost of $1.1 billion. A twin-rotor helicopter, Chinook has proved its worth in US operations in Afghanistan and Iraq and will be used by Indian Air Force for rapid insertion of troops in high altitude areas.

India has vintage attack and heavy deployment helicopters only on paper.

The acquisition process of the two helicopters was started in 2009 and was expected to be completed by December 2012. However, due to bureaucratic delays both in the defence ministry and finance ministry, the acquisition has been virtually hanging fire since 2013, following completion of all negotiations.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2015 04:02

^^ Hope some arrangements can be done for additional C 17.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Sep 2015 04:43

India needs to sell 50 LCH to Vietnam. Also India needs to sell Agnis to them. If they're interested then LCA, Kolkata class Destroyers, and some 500 Danish could be sold to them on soft terms.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 19 Sep 2015 04:43

What the Chinese do with Pakistan, India should do with Vietnam.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Sep 2015 12:00

Ditto,said before,we must make Vietnam our "all weather friend" and provide them even the means for them to devise their own WMDs. Building for them experimental N-reactors should be the first start. China is building for Pak new reactors to accelerate their plutonium ,bomb-making production capabilities.It must be paid back in the same coin.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Sep 2015 20:02

Four-five Indian companies vying to build Kamov-226 chopper

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Sep 2015 20:34

Phillip, this one idea that you and I agree upon. India prides itself with playing the "Sharif" nation. What do we have to show for it - not a permanent UNSC member and have to beg for nukular fuel.

India needs to identify critical foreign policy elements - Arming Vietnam should be a priority.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Sep 2015 21:49

Vivek K wrote:What the Chinese do with Pakistan, India should do with Vietnam.

Old Chinese saying: China builds peace, India destroys it.

LoL.

The issue has been - especially looking back - this worthless stuff called CBM. India needs to first get that out of the vocabulary. And everything else that projects that China has any standing. For that matter any of the 5 in the SC have a standing.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 20 Sep 2015 21:54

Maybe the wrong thread for this, but successive governments have tied themselves up in circles. Then arms purchases are looked at as appeasement - not for building capability or force projection. And the armed forces happily play along, appreciative of the shiny new toys.

Need to look at perfecting and exporting Arians to Vietnam.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Sep 2015 06:40

Vivek K wrote:Maybe the wrong thread for this, but successive governments have tied themselves up in circles. Then arms purchases are looked at as appeasement - not for building capability or force projection. And the armed forces happily play along, appreciative of the shiny new toys.

Need to look at perfecting and exporting Arians to Vietnam.

Yesterday's news says that Congress governments suspected the armed forces as wanting to take over after their success in 1971 and did their best to keep the armed forces down. Definitely wrong thread

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 26 Sep 2015 07:42

Video of a Mi-17 auto rotating, can this mode be automated into the FCS? and based on 'aiming' the landing spot, seems like there is enough control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WRPppxFR5A

another one a close call,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMcsJTOYI0

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Sep 2015 11:07

vasu raya wrote:Video of a Mi-17 auto rotating, can this mode be automated into the FCS? and based on 'aiming' the landing spot, seems like there is enough control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WRPppxFR5A

another one a close call,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvMcsJTOYI0

The first one is definitely not autorotation - you can hear the engines producing power via the rotor. It appears to be a training session on how to land under autorotation. The video says its training

The first comment in Russian, other than the English word at the end says

This full-time landing on an aircraft . Author

The second one is genuine. Beautiful video. Thanks for posting

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 26 Sep 2015 14:50

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 26 Sep 2015 22:29

shiv wrote:The first one is definitely not autorotation - you can hear the engines producing power via the rotor. It appears to be a training session on how to land under autorotation. The video says its training

The first comment in Russian, other than the English word at the end says
This full-time landing on an aircraft . Author
The second one is genuine. Beautiful video. Thanks for posting

yeah, the full flare at the last moment seen in a auto rotation was entirely missing. if India is to manufacture these maybe we will qualify it.

Will look out for rotary UAVs auto rotating

vasu raya · Post by **vasu raya** » 28 Sep 2015 14:35

autogyros,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8IB-5PbL9U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vc_WyeTqbhM

the autogyro design lends very well for precision cargo drop in the mountains compared to parachutes, instead of the cabin if it was cargo and the rotor blades are foldable, a transport could drop the whole package at altitude, a stabilizing parachute open up aligns the drop vertically, then the rotor blades open up, gain rpm and enter auto rotation mode, the chute is let go, the FCS then directs it to a helipad sized landing site, the cargo is left and the shell flies back perhaps using a Wankel engine to drive the propeller shaft, one could get away with a low power engine for the props as they are meant for only the ferry flight of the empty frame, visualizing the frame as a sky-crane. Then the kind of rotor used and not the engines determines the payload capacity and if it can be fit inside the cargo hold of a transport aircraft.

landing on a narrow runway should be similar to landing on a ridge line in the mountains
even at 20% weight for the frame&rotor alone, it should be competitive against parachute drops
unlike choppers there is no altitude restriction except for the height buffer needed during initial free fall descent
so many retiring choppers, their rotors can be reserved for one final use if one doesn't wish to ferry back the empty frames for re-use

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Sep 2015 20:38

HAL's Helicopter Unit at Gubbi Taluk to Take Off Soon

BENGALURU: Bidarehalla Kaval, a small village in Gubbi taluk of Tumakuru district, will soon transform into a township buzzing with activity as work on the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Helicopter Complex there is likely to start soon.

The PSU will make an initial investment of `500 crore on the unit that will manufacture components for Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), Light Utility Helicopter (LCH) and Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Dhruv.

“The groundbreaking ceremony will take place soon. This year, HAL is celebrating its 75th year and starting work on the new project will be one of the major events this year,” HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju told Express. “We are looking at an initial investment of `500 crore and will enhance it gradually. The unit will be operational by 2017-18,” he said.

The state government, he said, has been proactive in providing the PSU with necessary assistance. Cases related to land have been cleared and the government also recently took a decision to shift High Tension (HT) lines passing over the land. “We are sorting out minor issues related to connectivity and once that is done, the work will start,” he said.

The PSU recently signed a memorandum of understanding with Karnataka Police Housing and Infrastructure Development Corporation for the construction of a compound wall around the 600 acre plot.

Once operational, the helicopter unit will spur economic activities in and around Gubbi and also generate employment for locals. “It will be a huge facility that will house helicopter manufacturing systems, assembly hangars, composites and component manufacturing factories and engine component manufacturing units. Locals will be given jobs as per government norms,” the CMD said.

HAL is looking at manufacturing around 120 helicopters every year. “Space at the existing plant where we are doing research and development, production, maintenance and overhaul of helicopters is saturated. We need to expand to create at least 60 LUHs, 30 LCHs and 30 ALHs per year. This is the anticipated production rate for expected and projected demand. This requires a new complex,” he said.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Sep 2015 20:42

India, US sign $3-bn contract for Apache, Chinook helicopters

On Monday in New Delhi, US and Indian officials signed two contracts for the purchase by the Indian Air Force (IAF) of 22 AH-64E Apache attack helicopters, and 15 CH-47F Chinook multi-mission heavy lift helicopters.

Two of the contracts, which were signed in the afternoon between teams from Boeing headquarters in the US and Indian defence ministry officials, were for the “direct commercial sale” (DCS) part of the contracts. This includes the entire Chinook helicopter, and the flying portion of the Apache (less engines), as well as logistic support, spares and services.

The purchase of the Apache weaponry and radar was signed separately as a “foreign military sale” (FMS) purchase by the Indian defence ministry, which signed a “letter of agreement” (LoA) to this effect with the Pentagon. The FMS portion of the sale includes munitions, training, aircraft certification, and components like engines, electro-optical sensors and the radar.

“Contracts for purchase of 15 #Chinook and 22 #Apache Helicopters signed”, tweeted defence ministry spokesperson, Sitanshu Kar, late on Monday evening. He did not release further details.

The value of the deal for both helicopters, including DCS and FMS portions of the sale, is approximately $3 billion.

According to the contract signed, Boeing will start delivering the Chinook and Apache helicopters 36 months from today. The entire delivery is to be completed in 48 months from the signing of the contract.

Both helicopters will be delivered in fly-away condition, i.e. fully-built and ready for operations. Since Boeing is committed to a 30 per cent offset liability, there may be some portions that are built in India.

Already, Indian companies are involved in the building of the Chinook. Bangalore-based Dynamatics Technologies builds the aft pylon and cargo ramps for the Chinook’s global supply chain.

Boeing sources say that additional Indian vendors are being scouted for building more components.

This contract will further consolidate the US position as India’s second-biggest arms supplier, behind only Russia.

The Apache AH-64E is the world’s most fearsome attack helicopters. It is armed with anti-tank missiles, rockets and a chain gun that fires 625 rounds per minute that can rip apart and armoured vehicles. The Apache has flown close to a million mission hours in conflicts from the First Gulf War in 1991 to Afghanistan and Iraq.

Similarly, the Chinook, which first flew in the Vietnam War, but has continuously evolved in design, is one of the world’s most well-reputed heavy lift helicopters. It is capable of underslinging and lifting a light 155 millimetre howitzer to support troops in high altitudes of up to 15,000 feet.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Sep 2015 23:25

India looks for EW suites for Mi-17 helos

http://www.janes.com/article/54846/indi ... i-17-helos

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Sep 2015 14:09

Vivek,can't agree more.I've said elsewhere,that we squandered the goodwill earned when we led the NAM movement.Snake-Oil Singh preferred to play the role of the Bush butler.Our foreign policy/MEA has been servile for far too long.We swallow the Chinese stapled visa insults and reward them with on-line visas! They must be rolling over with laughter. A whole generation of pre-partition Indians have to die out as their servile attitude and love to be lackeys of the white firang is an olfactoral abomination..

Posted in the Ind Mil Av td.,"Chop the chopper".Piece on the vulnerability of the Apaches,helos in gen. and the need for dedicated close support aircraft.Here's another article on the same issue.

http://defense-update.com/newscast/0207 ... 100207.htm

Deadly Scourge of the US Helicopter Pilots in Iraq
By Colonel David Eshel

The downing of six helicopters in the past three weeks shows that Iraqi insurgents are becoming more adept at attacking these aircraft, which the military relies on for a variety of critical functions, regarding them as central elements to counter insurgency warfare. U.S. military officials are carefully studying the downing to determine whether they reflect a mere statistical anomaly, or "some new kind of tactics and techniques that we need to adjust to,'' said Marine General Peter Pace, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff. Intelligence reports caution that it is unclear whether insurgents have obtained new sophisticated anti-helicopter missiles, but that probably small-arms fire was responsible for the recent shoot-downs. A U.S. Army "shootdown assessment team" from Fort Rucker, Ala., is currently in Iraq investigating the crashes of a UH-60 Black Hawk and two AH-64 Apaches between Jan. 20 and Feb. 2 that left 16 Soldiers dead, Col. Robert Quackenbush from the Army Aviation Directorate told American Forces Press Service.

Officials believe two of the Army incidents were linked. According to U.S. Army Maj. Gen. James E. Simmons, deputy commanding general for support for Multinational Corps Iraq, in two separate incidents, insurgents set up explosive devices along the routes most likely to be used by the deploying coalition quick-reaction force. Simmons discounted reports, though, that advanced missile systems are being used to shoot down helicopters in Iraq. There is no evidence supporting that, Simmons said. He also said there is no evidence that a specific group has been targeting the aircraft. But, he said, insurgents are adapting, their tactics have evolved, and Army air missions have increased.

SA-18 GrouseThe U.S. Army has lost more than 120 helicopters in the war on terror, about 25 percent of them due to enemy engagements. According to recent official statistics, some 57 U.S. helicopters had been downed in Iraq until Feb. 4, resulting in 172 deaths, or about 5.5 percent of total American deaths since the conflict began in March 2003. According to U.S. Army General Simmons, the U.S. Army has lost 29 helicopters to enemy fire since March 2003. The majority of the firefights involve machine-gun and heavy-machine-gun fire, categorized as up to 23 mm, Simmons said. But, he added, some surface-to-air missiles, such as SA-7s, SA-14s and SA-16s, have been used to shoot down Army helicopters. Army helicopters average 100 enemy firefights monthly and are hit about 17 times a month. Most times the helicopters are able to fly back to base. Simmons said that is a testament to the quality of pilots, crews and equipment. The number of flight hours for the Army has nearly doubled in the past two years. In 2005, pilots logged about 240,000 hours. This year, Simmons said, he expects that number to reach nearly 400,000 hours. In 2006, pilots and crews flew 334,000 hours.

While still substantially lower than the U.S. suffered in the Vietnam War, during which about 5,000 helicopters went down, officials are extremely concerned over the latest trend. In fact, the last recorded incident seems especially disturbing. On Wednesday, Feb 9, 2007 a Marine CH-46 helicopter crashed in the western province of Al-Anbar, killing seven. The London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat has reported the advanced SA-16/18 Igla -- a more modern version of the Strela which is harder to defend against -- might have found its way into Iraq. It could only have come from Syrian military arsenals, as Russia has sold these weapons to Damascus recently. It is widely known that Syrian border towns in the area are used to funnel arms and money into Iraq.
Evading the potential risk of
SA-18 MANPADS, helicopter pilots began to fly low and fast, hoping to elude heat-seeking missiles fired by insurgents, while exposing themselves to heavy weapons such as machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades.

In an Internet statement, the al-Qaeda-affilated Islamic State of Iraq claimed responsibility for the latest crashes "We tell the enemies of God that the airspace of the Islamic State in Iraq is prohibited to your aircraft just like its lands are," the statement said. "God has granted new ways for the soldiers of the State of Iraq to confront your aircraft." Intelligence sources are unclear if the "new ways" referred to new and advanced anti-aircraft weapons - such as SA-18 missiles - or was simply a boast of recent successes.

According to John Pike, of GlobalSecurity.com, a military information Web site, U.S. forces should be concerned over the latest crashes because of "newer more modern and effective anti-aircraft missiles." Helicopter countermeasures are probably effective against the 1960s era SA-7, but "their effectiveness against the 1980s era SA-18 is less certain, cautions John Pike. As result, U.S. military helicopter pilots in Iraq tried flying low and fast, hoping to elude heat-seeking missiles fired by insurgents. But the insurgents responded with heavy weapons such as machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades, and the loss rate of American helicopters soared. So the pilots went high again and insurgents replied with lethal surface-to-air missiles. The vicious circle continued.

Insurgent's Favorite weapon - the RPG What is still more vexing to Helicopter pilots flying combat missions in Iraq is the constant threat from RPGs. U.S. military helicopters are equipped with long-range sensors and devices to jam radar and infrared technology, but they have proven vulnerable to intense gunfire, as well as rocket-propelled grenades. In one new tactic aimed at helicopters, groups of insurgents have waited in places where helicopters frequently fly and then attacked with a combination of small arms, rocket-propelled grenades, The "swarming" strategy may have played a role in some of the recent crashes.

The first shoot down from RPG is recorded on August 6, 1966 in Vietnam, when a 'Stingray' team UH-1E 'Huey' gunship was downed by ground fire, suspected to be a rocket propelled grenade fired by the NVA.

This AH-64 suffered an RPG hit but managed to land safely. Others were not so lucky.During the Afghan war against the Soviets, the Mujahideen perfected anti-helicopter tactics by luring these into well placed ambushes, from which multiple RPGs would be fired at them in volleys. The Mujahideen found that a frontal shoot at 100m range was the optimum, but helicopters at longer ranges, 700-800m were also attacked; by using the explosion of the rocket's self-destruct mechanism, although chances at this range deteriorated substantially. In order to get close to their targets, insurgents would lay ambush to hovering helicopters, by hiding RPG gunners in tree tops overlooking landing pads. The Al Qaeda technique, found in captured documents in Afghanistan, used to shorten the warhead's time fuse, resulting in the warhead detonating much earlier in an air-burst, making it a highly effective and cheap weapon against low-flying helicopters.

Perhaps the most publicized incident in which RPGs destroyed low flying helicopters was over Mogadishu, Somalia in 1993,when two Blackhawk helicopters were shot down by RPG in quick succession over the urban battlefield.

During Operation Iraqi Freedom 2003, over Karbala, 32 AH-64D Longbow were attacked in a classic ambush, by the Iraqi Medina armored division. The world was shocked when nearly all aircraft were hit by withering ground fire, including RPG salvoes, which forced one of those gunships to crash land, its crew captured. It was a bitter taste of what a simple 750 US Dollar 'black market' RPG rocket could still do to a highly sophisticated and ultra-expensive weapon system!

UH-60 flying low over Mosul, Iraq 2005 (US Army photo)In October 2004 Iraqi insurgents first used a rocket propelled grenade to bring down a UH-60 Blackhawk helicopter over Tikrit. The RPG hit one of the engines, forcing the pilot to make an immediate emergency landing. The five crew member, unhurt by the attack emerging from their damaged craft, came under intense ground fire, which also flamed the helicopter. This incident, although not the first in US history, became the harbinger of things to come in Iraq.

Two months later, another Blackhawk was not so lucky. On November 16 two US helicopters crashed after being hit by ground fire, killing 17 soldiers on board, the worst single loss of American lives in Iraq since the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom. Investigation of the crash scene indicated clearly, that at least one of the choppers was hit by RPG in the tail section, causing the pilot to lose control, colliding in mid-air with his wingman, bringing both of them down.

Helicopter pilots soon realized that they were facing a big problem. Rocket propelled weapons do not respond to chaff and flares, the only way for protection is skilled flying techniques, trying to evade hovering over high-risk zones, or adding heavier armour suites, which is not practical for transport helicopters due to their excessive weight factor.
Inevitably change of operational flight patterns and avoiding routine was thought to be the answer. Lieutenant Colonel Orlando Lopez , a UH-60 Blackhawk pilot and a member of the Army's Aviation Task Force in the Pentagon Helicopter mentioned that counter-measures include flying more nighttime missions, using unmanned aircraft and pairing more vulnerable transport helicopters with Apache attack helicopters to suppress ground fire had been ordered in the field. But US officials have redoubled their efforts to identify innovative ways to protect the helicopters.

Plasan's Crashworthy Armored Seats were designed specifically to protect helicopter crews flying in combat conditionsThe US Army has already added armored crew seats on its Black Hawk helicopters, for instance, along with shielding critical engine components, and in some instances fitting vulnerable sections of the fuselage with ballistic blankets. The Israeli firm Plasan Sasa has developed and fielded a lightweight armor "cockpit protection" solutions for aircraft that are expected to operate in the forward battle area. Both the pilot and co-pilot are provided with armor-protective seats. Protective armor on the Black Hawk, for example, can already withstand hits from 23mm shells. But US helicopter commanders caution that "We do not have the ability to detect small arms, large caliber weapons, RPGs [rocket-propelled grenades]," unleash a barrage of different weapons when a helicopter flies nearby". Such an an ambush can simply consist of training insurgent troops to 'swarm' their fire if a helicopter happens to fly by and only the use of on-the-ground intelligence to determine safer routes can be a solution. Each leg of helicopter flights -- whether to transport wounded soldiers and or deliver VIPs has to be painstakingly planned, altitudes and flight profiles are tailored based on the best available intelligence. However, a constantly changing flight profile also contributes to stress on pilots and equipment, which over time can become problematic on sustaining operations. There is already a determined lookout for any technical advancement to solve the dilemma. But it usually takes years for the Pentagon to develop and field new defensive technology such as infrared jammers.

Flares fired from a US Army Chinook, decepting infrared-guided missilesMeanwhile, pilots have armed their automatic flare dispensers, which fire showers of white-hot fireworks to confuse heat-seeking missiles, and "yank and bank" in a corkscrew motion when approaching a dangerous or "hot" landing zone, dropping with a gut-churning, nose-high descent. Hovering, a helicopter is at its most vulnerable. being down low is the small arms threat. Brig. Gen. Robert Milstead, a Cobra pilot who recently returned from commanding a Marine air wing in Iraq claims: "Above about 2,500 or 3,000 feet you are out of small arms range but you've got to worry about the MANPADS threat, by all means avoid 500 to 1,000 feet because you're hanging out there like a grape, to be picked!"

Indeed, a new generation of infrared-guided SAMS can attack from any direction, unlike earlier versions which had to be fired directly at a heat source such as a jet exhaust. The missiles carry "staring array" sensors that see a wide field of view and are less easily fooled by flares. Defenses against improved missiles seem to take agonizingly long to develop and field. A new missile warning system that the Pentagon had been working on for years suddenly became a high priority early in 2004, when the Defense Department realized that it was needed to help protect helicopters in Iraq. Every helicopter in Iraq now has one, but it took 2 1/2 years to accomplish. A new device called a "laser jamhead," which scrambles a missile's brain, is under development.

A new Iraqi Sunni insurgent anti-air weapon which is proving deadly for low-flying helicopters became known early last year as "aerial improvised explosive devices" (AIED). It works on the same principle as the roadside bomb (IED or improvised explosive device). This primitive weapon was thought to account for the unexplained downing in 10 days of three American combat helicopters. The projectile is fired to a height of some 50 feet before being detonated, proximity fuse alongside a chopper and covering it in a shower of sharp metal shards. This assumption was confirmed when a unit of the US 101st Airborne Division discovered a large cache of materials for building improvised explosive devices near Hawija on the Tigris River east of Balad. fired to a height of about 50ft before a proximity fuse detonates the explosive, filling the air with thousands of metal shards. By firing a salvo of these improvised bombs simultaneously, the Iraqi insurgents create an aerial "daisy chain," a trap the targeted helicopters finds it very hard to evade. In some cases, the Iraqi guerrillas set a double trap. A roadside bomb first strikes a US land convoy. The medical helicopter summoned to lift the casualties will then be targeted by the new weapon as it comes in low to pick them up.
To sum up: a helicopter, if hit by an RPG-7 round stands little chance, especially if scored in the rotor head. The main reason is that 'there is no warning unless someone on board can actually see the launch below’. If not, there is no indication until the actually rocket slams into the aircraft. Then survival depends on luck-or where it hit!

If you have sufficient altitude left, you may get away with a controlled crash landing, but usually the RPG gunners aim at low flying or hovering helicopters, so there is not much time left for evasive tactics.

The most dangerous area to chopper pilots flying at low altitude is the so-called "six o’clock" shadow. RPG shooters prefer to launch their weapon when the chopper has passed, usually aiming for the trailing aircraft, if these fly in wingman formation. In the words of a veteran helicopter pilot: " There is no real defense against a lucky RPG shot 'if they are in the right place and you are in the wrong place' at the wrong time!"

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2015 15:16

the concept seems similar to google glass and I agree can cause a lot of eye strain and migraine. wasnt it better they used a fighter style HMS...larger screen, nicer electronics.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Sep 2015 15:19

imo the IAF would have been better off with the Su35 Frogfoot updated with as much indian and israeli sensors as desired. we could probably get 2X the number of frogfoots. its much faster and nearly supersonic when going clean wing. 4 pylons under each wing, room for ECM, 30 mm cannons...rugged airframe that can go where a rickshaw will find hard.

but when people want a iphone6S , everything else like moto-g and oneplus is banned at the door.

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Sep 2015 15:22

so what now .. new types of reactive armor for helicopters ?

..

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Sep 2015 15:23

Singha wrote:the concept seems similar to google glass and I agree can cause a lot of eye strain and migraine. wasnt it better they used a fighter style HMS...larger screen, nicer electronics.

you still need helos for evac !

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Sep 2015 15:25

pandyan wrote:I was reading a small, colourful, kids book on Apache helicopters.

Apache Helicopter Pilots (World's Most Dangerous Jobs) Paperback :

Something that was highlighted repeatedly in the book:
Apache AH 64 is a very advanced machine and is one of the hardest machines to fly.

Looks like main difficulty is in getting familiar with its helmet mounted display that shows information in a monocle on the right eye. since left eye is seeing something and right eye is seeing something else, getting adjusted to this is the most difficult part of flying the apache and often causes severe headache to the pilots/trainees. just imagine...one eye is seeing a steady stream of constantly changing digital data with a right in the face kind of display and and other eye is scanning outside looking for external threats/terrain.

matter of training ..just like looking into a monocular microscope .. not impossible

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Sep 2015 15:47

How relevant is that monocle now with Helmets being designed with all sorts of information displayed directly, including even getting rid of the NVG? I mean, what can it do that extra?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Sep 2015 16:06

Lots of Information - http://www.usaarl.army.mil/publications ... Book09.pdf

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Sep 2015 18:28

pandyan wrote:
kit wrote:matter of training ..just like looking into a monocular microscope .. not impossible
there is a big difference. with microscopes, other eye is looking at a stationary object or in some cases, with microscopes, people do close their other eyes. View inside microscope is not changing fast.

Pandyan - standard advice for monocular microscope users as well as shooters using firearms with open or telescopic sights is to keep both eyes open. It is important to identify the "dominant eye" first. This is done very easily using this trick
http://www.diyphotography.net/a-neat-tr ... inant-eye/

It is possible to ignore some images and follow others. we do it all the time

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 30 Sep 2015 14:29

New (clean sheet) engines being developed for the Apache's over and above the T700-GE-701D . Should provide improved capability, in the 2025-2030 timeframe and of course would be retrofittable as has been the case with most things in the attack helicopter programs.

US Army opens competition for Apache/Black Hawk engine replacement

The US Army has officially opened its improved turbine engine programme (ITEP) for a more powerful and fuel efficient design that will replace the 1970s-era GE T700 on nearly 3,000 medium helicopters in the Pentagon's fleet. Army leaders have said ITEP is their top acquisition priority for their aviation portfolio."This is army aviation's number one modernisation programme," Lieutenant Colonel Curt Kuetemeyer, the army's ITEP product manager, reaffirmed during a 28 September press briefing.
The service on 24 September released a request for proposals (RfP) for ITEP, which is expected to take shape as a competition between incumbent GE Aviation, offering its single-spool GE3000, and Honeywell-Pratt & Whitney (P&W) joint venture Advanced Turbine Engine Company (ATEC), which is putting forth the dual-spool HPW3000.
Both companies have completed initial development and have tested two prototype engines complete with inlet particle separators under an army-funded technology maturation effort, the advanced affordable turbine engine (AATE) programme.

In the next phase of the programme the army will award contracts for up to two companies to produce a preliminary design of a new power plant. The competition is open to companies outside the two AATE participants, army officials confirmed during a 28 September press conference.
"We fully expect other engine vendors that didn't participate in AATE to come to participate in this programme as well," said Lt Col Kuetemeyer. "We feel confident that they can mature the specific technologies we have for production." All proposals are due on 9 November according to the RfP.
With limited funds available for new helicopter purchases, the army is stretching its 1970s-era rotorcraft technology by making its legacy fleets more powerful and fuel efficient. "More engine power to the Black Hawk and the Apache means farther range, more time on the objective - all resulting in a more lethal, more effective mission," said Lt Col Kuetemeyer.
Specifically, the army is seeking a 50% power increase over the T700 with a simultaneous 25% reduction in specific fuel consumption. The new powerplant must, however, fit the existing dimensions of the T700.
The army largely decided to open an ITEP competition because the T700's performance in high-temperature, high-altitude conditions recently in Afghanistan has been less than optimal, in some cases forcing crews to fly with fewer personnel and equipment than desired. Therefore, the new engine is required to fly at 6,000 feet in temperatures up to 95 degrees Fahrenheit, according to the RfP.
The army plans to award up to two contracts before end of fiscal year 2016. After the winning teams build their preliminary designs, one company is to be selected for a six-year engineering and development phase.
The programme is expected to yield new engines for the Pentagon's existing fleet of more than 2,100 Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks and nearly 700 Boeing AH-64E Apache Guardians. The Apache/Black Hawk re-engining portion of the programme could be worth between USD15 million and USD40 million to the winning bidder. However, the deal could also lead to the opportunity to power the army's light and medium future vertical lift (FVL) rotorcraft.

COMMENT

ITEP will be a boon to the winning bidder because the entire development is government funded. Only two other engine manufacturers - Rolls-Royce and Safran's Turbomeca division - are in a position to compete for the contract. Rolls-Royce denied interest in the deal and Turbomeca did not respond to a request for comment. Unless a third bidder emerges in the coming months, the competition will remain between the US turbine powerhouses.
In addition to the ITEP competition, GE Aviation is also working on the army's Future Affordable Turbine Engine (FATE) for a 5,000-10,000 shp-class engine expected to power the heavy end of the FVL spectrum. It is difficult to predict how industrial base concerns might influence the army's ITEP decision without knowing whether additional bidders beyond the two key US players will emerge.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Oct 2015 12:38

A true engineering challenge!