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Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Dec 2017 06:18

Cybaru wrote:
durvasa wrote:The extent of pimping for Russian military hardware that happens in BRF forums by a few is outrageous.

Almost every post, however small, on Dhruv, Tejas, Insead, submarines is followed by at least one post dissing the Indian stuff and two more posts plugging the Russian Maal! Mind-boggling and extremely sad!

Hope mods bring some antidote to this infection!


<poof>

Not that I agree to what Phillip said, but whats the need of getting personal? Reporting the post. Sir you are very tenured over here, not expected out of you.
Last edited by nachiket on 06 Dec 2017 13:18, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Personal attack in quoted post deleted

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 07:38

Indranil wrote:I wish somebody stood up and just said. "Yeh sab faltoo batein chodo, coaxial rotor technology kya bhao diye" (Cut the crap, what's the rate for the coaxial rotor tech). We want to build our next helis with pusher props for higher speed.

This is very likely what this is all about.
The Make in India Ka-226 is possibly a compromise that GoI is having to do.
The helo appears to have a unique design and advantages with its palletized cargo system

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 07:40

There is a youtube video of some IIT / Engineer kid who has put in a patent for a co-axial rotor system, with unequal blade size.
A counter-rotating pair of main rotors, with the lower rotor blades like half the size of the top.

Will post this video if I can locate it

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 06 Dec 2017 07:50

I think reading between the line is how we get into trouble. No one gives us anything. If it is part of the agreement great, otherwise we ain't getting nothing.

If we want to make faster helicopters then sign a joint development agreement. They aren't licensing us the rotor tech. They are allowing us to build just that type. We can always license just that technology if we really wanted to cut development time. Kamov would happily license us that.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 11:02

The rotor and gearbox of the 226 will probably be Made in Russia and shipped to the integrator

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2017 13:20

Cybaru, please refrain from personal attacks and name calling. You can easily counter Philip's arguments and claims. I've edited your post.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 06 Dec 2017 14:40

nachiket wrote:Cybaru, please refrain from personal attacks and name calling. You can easily counter Philip's arguments and claims. I've edited your post.


Got it!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 06 Dec 2017 15:13

Gagan wrote:
Indranil wrote:I wish somebody stood up and just said. "Yeh sab faltoo batein chodo, coaxial rotor technology kya bhao diye" (Cut the crap, what's the rate for the coaxial rotor tech). We want to build our next helis with pusher props for higher speed.

This is very likely what this is all about.
The Make in India Ka-226 is possibly a compromise that GoI is having to do.
The helo appears to have a unique design and advantages with its palletized cargo system


Maybe a few where the pallet system can come in handy. But 200? It can’t but help eat into the LUH. I’m sorry I can’t make sense of it when we already have a homegrown product. I mean why the hell bother building out a (successful) helicopter arm in HAL if we go buy phoren anyways?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 06 Dec 2017 17:46

Mirage 2000 and MiG 23 and now Rafale are all part of kitty because of late LCA. Let LUH grow pissfully while IAF and Indian army in Himalaya do not starve due to rust bucket Alouette II

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 19:15

chola wrote:Maybe a few where the pallet system can come in handy. But 200? It can’t but help eat into the LUH. I’m sorry I can’t make sense of it when we already have a homegrown product. I mean why the hell bother building out a (successful) helicopter arm in HAL if we go buy phoren anyways?

Like Saurav Jha says, "This is not the behavior of a military that is keen on indiginization"
The LUH procurement is a prime example. Apaches from the US is another.
IA looking for a light tank is yet another, IA looking to Import several lakh assault riffles is yet another.

Everyone is responsible, and has played a part. But the main culprit seems to be the MoD, which takes several years to approve projects.
It is very hard to digest this - the nation's defence is in the hands of a MoD that sits on files for not weeks, not months, but years at end!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 06 Dec 2017 20:07

The armed forces play games with the nations finances. The end result - jobs exported to Russia, France, and others. And Indian remains low tech, un-industrialized!! And with limited systems, India cannot even set straight even puny Pakistan that has an economy perhaps 1/20th that of India.

If LUH is delayed - Huuuge problem! If Ka-226T is delayed, its coming onlee! Why this Kolavari D?

So India has yet again failed to get its house in order and will remain a weak nation, unable to force its perspective on the world stage. Rejoice!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 06 Dec 2017 21:50

Very noob question - What are the conditions in which a pallet/compartment system is better over the conventional one (put/attach things in the cabin) ?

Med-evac perhaps ?

Although a complete pallet/compartment system might need it's own equipment to attach to the helicopter. Knowing the Russian philosophy it probably could be with simple small crane / jack systems available on the bases.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 06 Dec 2017 22:08

Manish_P wrote:Very noob question - What are the conditions in which a pallet/compartment system is better over the conventional one (put/attach things in the cabin) ?

Portable operating theater to be transported and left somewhere.
Quick change from casevac to transport. Supplies in one trip. Goats in a second trip.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 06 Dec 2017 23:22

But sir it is a smallish helicopter isn't it. Other than the medical container, the best turn around time for typical transport items might not be that much longer when compared to a conventional layout. Maybe even more perhaps as the entire compartment has to be fixed properly to the helicopter frame using a crane/tool?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2017 23:26

shiv wrote:Mirage 2000 and MiG 23 and now Rafale are all part of kitty because of late LCA.

Sarcasm or you are being serious shiv saar?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2017 23:33

Manish_P, Why not research what types of pallet configurations are there for the KA-226T?
Thanks for the research.

ramana

Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamov_Ka-226

Ka-226T
Instead of Rolls-Royce 250C engines, this variant is fitted with the more powerful Turbomeca Arrius 2G1. Each engine provides 670 shp, increasing the service ceiling to around 7,000 m, providing improved high altitude and high temperature operation.[8] Helicopter has new avionics with multifunctional displays, automatic control system, navigation system, radar. It can be equipped with hoist system, helicopter sling, searchlight, additional external fuel tank. For search and rescue missions helicopter can be equipped with medical module.



Air Force Technology: http://www.airforce-technology.com/proj ... elicopter/

The Ka-226T is a light, twin-engine multi-role helicopter offered by Russian Helicopters, for military and civilian missions. The military version of Ka-226T is designed for operation in hard-to-reach upland conditions as well as hot and cold climates.

The Ka-226T is produced by Kumertau Aviation Production Enterprise, a part of Russian Helicopters, and is currently in service with the Russian Air Force. It performs surveillance, reconnaissance, search and rescue (SAR), targeting, and transportation of cargo and troops.

Approval of the acquisition of Ka-226T was given by the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) in May 2015 to replace the ageing Chetak (Aerospatiale Alouette III) and Cheetah (Aerospatiale SA-315B) helicopters of the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) and the Indian Air Force (IAF), respectively. A joint venture between Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and Russian Helicopters is expected to licence-build 200 Ka-226T helicopters for the IAF and the AAC.

The Ka-226T underwent testing in India as part of the Reconnaissance and Surveillance Helicopter (RSH) acquisition programme, which was cancelled by the Indian authorities in 2014. The helicopter out-performed its Western counterparts during flights in India’s hot conditions and mountainous areas. The Ka-226T was demonstrated at Aero India 2015 exhibition held in Bangalore, India.

Design and features of the multi-mission helicopter

An upgraded design of the proven Ka-26 helicopter, the Ka-226T is fitted with a high-visibility nose, a new cabin design and a new rotor system. Its fuselage integrates a four-leg non-retractable landing gear.

The helicopter also features a new transmission system and Kamov coaxial rotor system, including three upper rotor blades and a set of three lower rotor blades. The new rotor system avoids the need for a tail rotor, which ensures landings and take-offs from small sites.

The rotorcraft integrates a new avionics suite with multifunctional displays (MFDs), automatic control system, navigation system and radar. It can be fitted with hoist system, cargo hook, searchlight and additional external fuel tank. It can also be configured with a medical module for search and rescue missions. The module can be quickly installed or removed by just two people.


"The Ka-226T performs surveillance, reconnaissance, search and rescue (SAR), targeting, and transportation of cargo and troops."

Fuselage of the Ka-226T has a length of 8.6m, whilst its width is 3.2 and it has a height of 4.1m. The diameter of its main rotor is 13.2m.

Cabin and cargo capacities

The cabin measures 2.35m-long, 1.34m-wide and 1.4m-high. It offers a volume of 5.4m3 and is fitted with mooring equipment for securing cargo and folding seats for accommodating troops.

A total of 1,200kg of cargo can be transported by the helicopter inside the cabin and it can carry 1,500kg load on external sling. The maximum take-off weight with under-slung load is 3,800kg.


Engines and performance

Power for the Ka-226T comes from two Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 engines. Each engine develops a take-off power of 705hp and contingency power of 580hp. The rotorcraft is equipped with engine fire protection system and fire warning system.

The helicopter can fly at a maximum speed of 250km/h and cruise speed of 220km/h. It has a maximum flight range of 600km with main fuel tanks. The operational and hover (OGE) ceilings of the helicopter are 5,700m and 4,100m respectively and the maximum rate of climb is 10m/s.




From supplier: KA-226T

General Information


The Ka-226T is a powerful, light multirole helicopter that, in addition to meeting high safety standards, boasts incredibly precise hovering ability, excellent manoeuvrability and is very easy to fly. Improved performance characteristics of the Ka-226T include eco-friendly features, efficiency, modern avionics and additional flight safety solutions – making this one of the best models in its class.


•The Ka-226T is powered by 580 h.p. FADEC-equipped Arrius 2G1 engines by SAFRAN HE which enables the helicopter to land or take-off safely if one engine fails.
•The coaxial main rotor system and absence of a tail rotor not only makes it safer on the ground and in the air, but also makes it possible to use the Ka-226T in spaces with scant room for manoeuver, as the fuselage does not extend beyond the area swept by the rotors.
•The Ka-226 can operate day and night, in regular and adverse weather conditions, over land or expanses of water, and also in high winds.
•It is operation in temperatures ranging from -50°С до +50°С with a relative humidity of 100%, and does not need to be kept in a hangar.



The Ka-226T helicopter boasts a modular design and can be delivered in a variety of modifications.



•The passenger model can comfortably set up to seven people.
•The transport model can carry one tonne within the fuselage or on an external sling and cargo platform can be installed to carry oversize goods.
•The Ka-226T has two kinds of medical uses – medevac and intensive care. Medevac helicopters are equipped with stretchers to carry the injured, oxygen cylinders, and the requisite medical equipment. There are fold-away seats for medical staff. When used to provide intensive-care treatment, the Ka-226T can accommodate one patient and two medical staff.

•As a police vehicle, the Ka-226T can transport up to six people and is excellently suited to law enforcement activities such as: ensuring law and order, patrolling areas, identifying and tracking criminals, and managing the traffic police.
•The search-and-rescue version of the Ka-226 can operate in difficult climates and in a range of different environments, including mountainous areas. High hover precision makes it possible to get injured people on board safely.



I will ask deejay to comment.

Heck it was easier than asking the question. Thanks to google.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 06 Dec 2017 23:48

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote:Mirage 2000 and MiG 23 and now Rafale are all part of kitty because of late LCA.

Sarcasm or you are being serious shiv saar?


If it was the MiG-29 he said instead of the MiG-23/27 then maybe he might be serious.

MiG-23 because of the LCA, no.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2017 23:49

Shiv, Do you still have your Observer Book of Aircraft?

This KA-226 is a derivative of the ugly looking KA-26 in the back pages.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Dec 2017 00:19

For me, the pallet system doesn’t offer enough for 200 ac that will eat into orders for the LUH. You’re not talking about a sky crane whose primary duty is to lift and drop off chit. This is a light, utility helicopter. Yes, a LUH so why not wait for THE LUH from home?

Buy a few (or a few dozens) for the pallet feature. But I can’t see how a pallet system for six or seven passengers or supplies limited by the small size of the craft would be better than the LUH with conventional layout for the vast majority of our needs.

Think about this: we built and have employed 230 Dhruvs since induction 15 years ago. We’re going to buy 200 KA226’s? These things last decades in service which basically means the LUH gets confined to the minor role to flesh out the light utility numbers when it should be the other way around! It should be mainly indigenous with a few firangis to round things off.

The sad thing is when the lines and infrastructure is finally hammered out for the Kamovs in three? five? seven? years the LUH would be ready but all the money and positions for a light utility will have been alloted to yet another foreign system.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 07 Dec 2017 01:24

chola, once a decision has been made its not useful to keep questioning it.

The services have gone through a selection process and decided on this bird.
By raising useless objections it just makes the services not get the weapons they need.
MoD under AKA was a master of that tactic.*

All arguments are fair before they make a decision.

Already 3 years have passed since the selection has happened.

Now demanding un-available LUH is not helpful the service.

* They probably have an informal award ceremony for the best question that torpedoes any Service proposal.
And add it to the incoming civil services officers training modules.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2017 03:56

The KA-226 buy was to keep the Russians quiet. They had to be given something! They had gone to the point to stop sending their entries into our competitions.

I have said this before and I will say that again. I cannot imagine leaving pallets on mountain sides and putting them together as a lego piece is viable. At high altitudes, you don't even turn your engines down. Beyond, a certain altitude, you can't. So somebody has to be moving these large pieces on treacherous slopes and precision lift it into position while the rotors are going. Hmmm!

At airfields, most modern helis can be completely gutted and roles changed within less than an hour. Nothing is welded to the floor these days everything is a bolt on. Aren't the Dhruv's, the Seakings etc. used for a variety of ways even today? On ships, these cavernous modules will take up precious hangar space.

The only true advantage that I can think of this pallet system is the ability to not have the pallet at all. This can increase the payload carrying capability at altitude. But, even this is nullified by Ka-226's old design and technologies. Its low PWR (thanks to its heavy airframe) limits its service ceiling to 5000 mtrs (their numbers, not mine)! So LUH beats it at payload carrying capability at altitude too.

So, I can't believe KA-226T is being bought for a capability. It is being bought to keep the Russians happy.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 07 Dec 2017 06:14

^^^
That Indian wealth is being distributed to keep Russians, British, French and US happy. They all expect their "fair" share :((

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 07 Dec 2017 06:16

It seems to be a very capable bird. I had posted a video of the Ka-26, which was very maneuverable.
The one thing about the IAF is that when they down select a bird, they've thoroughly trialed it.
(It is somewhere else, where the forces' recommendations are "Tweaked" around)

In disaster hit areas, this can drop off a water filteration plant that is palletized, or a little health camp pallet.
In siachen it can be useful.
Without the pallet, it can work like a small skycrane, and lift a radar, generator to a hill top etc

Private industry can come up with various more dedicated pallets too. Hope the final assemblers in India use their imagination towards this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2017 06:44

Indranil wrote:The KA-226 buy was to keep the Russians quiet. They had to be given something! They had gone to the point to stop sending their entries into our competitions.

I have said this before and I will say that again.

I would like to put something on record here and I will explain why I am saying this
1. The above statement is a personal opinion
2. No proof has been provided and no proof will be provided either

I say this because Indranil is a forum leader whose words are taken as the truth on certain subjects related to aviation in particular. This forum has had, at any given time, a set of lurkers who are teenagers, unregistered on BRF but are learning from BRF and the words of a senior respected member are taken very seriously. In 4-5 years a young professional will register on here and insist that he has read from a reliable source that the Ka 226 was bought to please the Russians

Recall how upset we got when the Tejas received a bad report. Lots of people wanted to do articles. Looks like only I did one, but it is easy to put out misinformation and impossible to withdraw it.If we are proud of BRF as a source of reliable information - what we post must be subject to strict standards. Twitter and Whatsapp are there for gossip or rumour forwards or one can do a "My Take" article in IDRW.

But people who are positioned as forum leaders must be circumspect about what goes out as information.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2017 08:41

Shivji, that is his opinion. It is unfair to expect a forum leader to self censure a train of thought he may have because others disagree with it. In his reply above, he clearly mentions why he perceives the Ka-226 to be an unsuitable buy. And of course arms sales have a political element. Neither point he has stated is by any means new. Of course you are welcome to disagree and counter his points, but accusing him of spreading deliberate misinformation is not accurate ( IMHO).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 07 Dec 2017 09:43

ramana wrote:Manish_P, Why not research what types of pallet configurations are there for the KA-226T?
Thanks for the research.

ramana

I will ask deejay to comment.

Heck it was easier than asking the question. Thanks to google.


Than you for the advice sir. Just that quiet a few times I have got better answers (at times with different perspective too) to my queries from resident experts than by referring to google, wiki or brochures. Faster too... :)
Last edited by Manish_P on 07 Dec 2017 10:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 07 Dec 2017 09:48

Gagan wrote:
In disaster hit areas, this can drop off a water filteration plant that is palletized, or a little health camp pallet.


Private industry can come up with various more dedicated pallets too. Hope the final assemblers in India use their imagination towards this.


Interesting. Thanks!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 07 Dec 2017 10:17

Karan M wrote:Shivji, that is his opinion. It is unfair to expect a forum leader to self censure a train of thought he may have because others disagree with it. In his reply above, he clearly mentions why he perceives the Ka-226 to be an unsuitable buy. And of course arms sales have a political element. Neither point he has stated is by any means new. Of course you are welcome to disagree and counter his points, but accusing him of spreading deliberate misinformation is not accurate ( IMHO).

I think he can answer for himself. It is essential in my viewpoint that a forum leader differentiates between speculation and fact. That is one of the roles of a forum leader - or he will not be able to apply that standard to others. People get away with any kind of insinuation that later gets established as possible fact that "is not new" and has "been heard before". In the course of time I will illustrate this amply by converting fiction into fact and fact into fiction by means of un-substantiable statements

In any case I definitely do not want the story that Ka-226 was bought "to please the Russians' to pass just because someone respected said it. It must be countered and questioned. This is precisely how the media initiate innuendo about deals. I think we should do better than that.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 07 Dec 2017 10:28

Manish_P wrote:
Gagan wrote:
In disaster hit areas, this can drop off a water filteration plant that is palletized, or a little health camp pallet.


Private industry can come up with various more dedicated pallets too. Hope the final assemblers in India use their imagination towards this.


Interesting. Thanks!

Modi and Netenyahu on the beach in Hafia and that golf cart water filtration plant on it, is probably the size that will fit in such a pallet with a generator. PVT industry can make one in India

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 07 Dec 2017 10:35

shiv wrote:I think he can answer for himself. It is essential in my viewpoint that a forum leader differentiates between speculation and fact. That is one of the roles of a forum leader - or he will not be able to apply that standard to others.


Of course he can answer for himself, but you couched the query in terms of a forum leader hence its only fair that others would reply to the generic statement on those lines. If you had addressed that query to Indranil himself alone (as versus the forum leader bit) then it would be more specific and I would not have attempted to address the points you raised at all.

People get away with any kind of insinuation that later gets established as possible fact that "is not new" and has "been heard before". In the course of time I will illustrate this amply by converting fiction into fact and fact into fiction by means of un-substantiable statements


I believe (my personal opinion, somebody more aware than I am, like Deejay, might completely differ) that Indranil raised some pertinent points about why the Ka-226 was not suitable for the role, so please go ahead and address those. To imply that he is merely converting fiction into fact and vice versa, is meaningless without a proper answer. Its rhetorical. Indranil mentioned specific points about the Ka-226 weight, its power to weight ratio, the pallet loads thing being a problem (as versus an easy answer) etc.

We know in the past the powers that be have often chosen specific weapons for a political rationale, and geopolitical aims. So even that per se was not controversial.

In any case I definitely do not want the story that Ka-226 was bought "to please the Russians' to pass just because someone respected said it. It must be countered and questioned. This is precisely how the media initiate innuendo about deals. I think we should do better than that.


So please counter and question it by all means.

What I do see in your post is a lot of disquiet that the post was made. Fair enough, your choice to make. But you haven't made a single counter rebuttal to what Indranil said, and that is the crux of the matter.

And also, that means the objection to Indranils post was rhetorical and is not (yet) factual.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 07 Dec 2017 11:20

A very detailed post was given by Ramana above.The KA-226 also underwent extensive testing and from official reports,was evaluated as being "better" than its Western counterparts.Let's leave it that.No one also disputes the selection of the Rafale on technical ground,and it also was supposedly cheaper than the Typhoon. Every defence deal will have some degree of political consideration too,especially if there is a virtual "dead heat" between the finalists!

One very versatile feature of the KA-226 are the medical pods that can be left behind at any mountain base to assist the ground forces.The helo can return without it,bring back another and return the pods when required.Similarspecialist pods could be developed for our own unique high alt. reqs.
One version could be a complete accommodation module,delivered in as many numbers as required just like little containers.These could be fully equipped for high alt. living,sleeping,kitchen,medical,storage,power,recreational,toilet,modules.The DRDO could very easily design/develop these modules of the same size as the KA's pod.These pre-fab facilities would go a long ay in easing the enormous challenge faced by our troops at Siachen and other Himalayan posts.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 07 Dec 2017 11:44

Karan M wrote:...

I believe (my personal opinion, somebody more aware than I am, like Deejay, might completely differ) ...


Hain ji?!!! Thank You, Thank You. I was un-aware of this. :D

Ka 226, BTW, is more to fulfill an IA reqmt than IAF. Light Helicopters increasingly are shifting to IA.

Disaster Relief in due course will have its own fleet of helicopters (if I have my way!).

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 07 Dec 2017 13:01

Philip wrote:One very versatile feature of the KA-226 are the medical pods that can be left behind at any mountain base to assist the ground forces.The helo can return without it,bring back another and return the pods when required.Similarspecialist pods could be developed for our own unique high alt. reqs.
One version could be a complete accommodation module,delivered in as many numbers as required just like little containers.These could be fully equipped for high alt. living,sleeping,kitchen,medical,storage,power,recreational,toilet,modules.The DRDO could very easily design/develop these modules of the same size as the KA's pod.These pre-fab facilities would go a long ay in easing the enormous challenge faced by our troops at Siachen and other Himalayan posts.


Now that's really neat! A niche product working really well for us because our requirements are just as niche. A lot of possibilities opening up on the military, disaster relief, private industry front for such a product. A country as big and challenging like ours would need Helicopters in the thousands. And in the future we could (probably will) develop our own version.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2017 13:47

Hakeem,

It is my opinion: that the Ka-226T "selection" is geopolitical.

Here are some facts though: The Ka-226T was NEVER chosen. RSH competition was conducted twice. The first RFP was sent in 2003. Fennec supposedly was the first choice. But the competition was aborted in 2007 on allegations of bribes. The tender, was refloated in 2008 and trials were still on in 2011 (Airbus complained to IA chief openly saying trials are on for 38 months for reasons not known to them). There were reports of performance deviations from both competitors on high altitude requirements. If LUH's performance at altitude is the benchmark, then the other two failing is no news. In fact that is a given according to the laws of physics. In 2014, the second RSH tender was again dissolved and the process was changed into "Buy and Make" program.

By the way, to all those reading this. I am not a leader. I am just an enthusiast. I am a computer scientist by training and profession. I have taught myself all I have known from Google and some basic books on aerodynamics. I have many friends from aviation: designers, scientist and pilots, with whom I spend a lot of my time. My "knowledge" is from loose chatter. None of what I speak is gospel. Go, find yourself a good leader. Better still, don't be led by anyone (especially on the internet)! Read your own stuff. Make your own friends. With real friends, you might even get free courtesy rides.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2017 13:50

Philip wrote:One very versatile feature of the KA-226 are the medical pods that can be left behind at any mountain base to assist the ground forces.The helo can return without it,bring back another and return the pods when required.Similarspecialist pods could be developed for our own unique high alt. reqs.
One version could be a complete accommodation module,delivered in as many numbers as required just like little containers.These could be fully equipped for high alt. living,sleeping,kitchen,medical,storage,power,recreational,toilet,modules.The DRDO could very easily design/develop these modules of the same size as the KA's pod.These pre-fab facilities would go a long ay in easing the enormous challenge faced by our troops at Siachen and other Himalayan posts.

You say you rub shoulders with men in uniform. And this is the kind of your suggestions. Design helicopter modules as containers to sustain life at high altitude? They count weight by the number of bullets they have to carry on them. Here you are speaking about a 1 ton pod.

You can read what troops at Siachen use. Much more efficient than a metal 2X2. It's not that difficult. Just Google.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Dec 2017 14:15

^^^ The Fennec makes more sense in being that it comes from a line (descended from Ecureuil and developing into EC130) that pretty much sets the standard for modern western light utilities — something I think the IA or IAF would be far more in favor of than this strange Russki system.

That said, the LUH is not any more “unavailable” than the KA-226, IMHO. We have two prototypes. HAL said it can produce the LSP at Bengaluru. Then Tumakuru will kick up and give us 30 per year by 2019. Up to 60 per year by 2024. HAL with those numbers would fulfill a 200 order by 2025.

Compare this to Kamov, 200 in 9 years which works out to be roughly the same:
http://m.thehindubusinessline.com/news/world/russia-aims-to-deliver-200-ka226t-military-choppers-to-india-in-9-years/article9981845.ece
Last edited by chola on 07 Dec 2017 14:20, edited 1 time in total.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 Dec 2017 14:18

The Fennec could not meet IA's HOGE requirement at altitudes desired. Best of Western design be damned.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 07 Dec 2017 14:23

Indranil wrote:
Philip wrote:One very versatile feature of the KA-226 are the medical pods that can be left behind at any mountain base to assist the ground forces.The helo can return without it,bring back another and return the pods when required.Similarspecialist pods could be developed for our own unique high alt. reqs.
One version could be a complete accommodation module,delivered in as many numbers as required just like little containers.These could be fully equipped for high alt. living,sleeping,kitchen,medical,storage,power,recreational,toilet,modules.The DRDO could very easily design/develop these modules of the same size as the KA's pod.These pre-fab facilities would go a long ay in easing the enormous challenge faced by our troops at Siachen and other Himalayan posts.

You say you rub shoulders with men in uniform. And this is the kind of your suggestions. Design helicopter modules as containers to sustain life at high altitude? They count weight by the number of bullets they have to carry on them. Here you are speaking about a 1 ton pod.

You can read what troops at Siachen use. Much more efficient than a metal 2X2. It's not that difficult. Just Google.


Indranil ji, do you mean to say that the ceiling numbers of the KA-226 are minus the pod ? :shock:

deejay
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 07 Dec 2017 14:24

chola wrote:^^^ The Fennec makes more sense in being that it comes from a line (descended from Ecureuil and developing into EC130) that pretty much sets the standard for modern western light utilities — something I think the IA or IAF would be far more in favor of than this strange Russki system.

That said, the LUH is not any more “unavailable” than the KA-226, IMHO. We have two prototypes. HAL said it can produce the LSP at Bengaluru. Then Tumakuru will kick up and give us 30 per year by 2019. Up to 60 per year by 2024. HAL with those numbers would fulfill a 200 order by 2025.

Compare this to Kamov, 200 in 9 years which works out to be roughly the same:
http://m.thehindubusinessline.com/news/world/russia-aims-to-deliver-200-ka226t-military-choppers-to-india-in-9-years/article9981845.ece


None of the Western systems have delivered in the medium class where the Ruskis rule. And in High Altitude it is HAL all the way. The ALH and I am sure the LUH are unmatched.

EC 130T2, EC 145, H 145, etc, etc are good for commercial utility in the plains or lower altitudes. The B3 did well in Himalayan high altitudes of Nepal but none of them are doing better then the Allouette models and are certainly not close to the ALH or LUH.

chola
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 07 Dec 2017 14:47

Yes, I’m not knocking the Mi-17 so we can leave the medium copters out. I’m strictly talking about the light utility class we are giving away to Kamov. Also, I’m not advocating for the Fennec but only that it seems reasonable that it was the “first choice” in response to what Indranil ji said about the KA-226 not being ever chosen.

My core argument is why not wait for the LUH? As you agree it is better suited for our needs at altitude. And as I posted, the KA-226 won’t be available any sooner.


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