Indian Military Helicopters

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ramana
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2017 05:45

Karan M wrote:Lt Gen Pawar notes the situation with Cheetah and Chetak is they need to be replaced, no ifs and buts, yesterday.
http://bharatshakti.in/light-helicopter ... -prevails/
Ex Head of Army Aviation Corps.

I say take the darn Ka-226 if it meets IA requirements, and be done with it. LUH certification will take at least 2 more years. And then 1-2 years more to stabilize production.





My conclusion too. .

Sad two years wasted after decision was made.

Hope it was not to push LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 12 Dec 2017 05:52

Indranil wrote:^^^ What have you been reading or thinking before posting the above?

1. One makes no sense.
2. Two makes no sense.
3. There is no such pod. And even if it did. You are sacrificing a helicopter for a generator?
4. No such pod exists. And even if it did, what is the weight of a hose filled with water. And how safe is a heli tethered to ground using such a hose. There are much better ways of fighting fire in high rises. You are putting the cart in front of the horse.


Neither I guess, just historical Ok, let me add that context here,

a) During the Uttarakhand floods there were some aborted landings due to bad weather and a question came up on why a cabin can’t be lifted up as Cargo and Lalmohan replied that it would be scary for the passengers inside the cabin with all the swaying motion, so here the Ka-226 can winch up a cabin or basket (as seen with hot air balloon rides) treating it as cargo but positioned close to the pods location so passengers don’t feel the discomfort
b) That’s a transition to pusher propeller design, which I believe you are a fan of or the X-2, (anyways with a gyrocopter mode, the rotors aren’t powered, only the propeller which arguably should increase hovering endurance). Russians would charge more to do such a mod and from-the-scratch desi design is going to take forever
c) while the drive shaft from above can double up for power generation using a generator pod suitably developed, and the pod detachable so the cart and horse can both go separate ways. The need for Emergency power in a remote location, I wouldn’t dismiss that requirement
d) The developer can figure out the limits, including the hose size with the hose tethered on both ends, no swaying is expected

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 12 Dec 2017 05:57

If the Ka-226 comes before the LUH, I would be a happy man too. I can't see that happening though. In the last two years, barely a file has moved. In the meantime, LUH has gone from the ground based test bench to 2 flying prototypes and flight demo.

Stalled & Drifting, Russia Rushes To Kickstart Ka-226T Deal

Shiv Aroor | Oct 31 2017
...
Confirming the development today in a statement, RusHeliCo has that its CEO Andrey Boginskiy is on his way to India to “meet India’s defense minister Nirmala Sitharaman” where they “will discuss the Ka-226T helicopter project to assemble this helicopter in India — specifically, they will negotiate when to sign a contract and what production facility to use for a JV manufacturing Ka-226T helicopters.”
...
Things have remained difficult ever since the IGA was signed, with both RusHeliCo and India’s Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) wondering just how half of the helicopter will be built in India. Apart from the Ka-226T’s Turbomeca engines, several of the product’s cockpit and electronics systems are non-Russian, throwing up the complicated paradigm of navigating through ‘third party’ rules and satisfying very specific clauses set out in the IGA. An internal breakdown of the programme by HAL that Livefist had a chance to peruse suggests that even a low rate production facility will pass off little benefit to local industry, with most of the production restricted to the assembly of knocked down and semi knocked down kits.
...
Quoted in the statement, Mr Boginskiy sounds hopeful, but it’s hard the miss the nerves that have crept in: “Meetings at that high level are very important for our company, as they allow to establish direct relationship with our key partners, and India is undoubtedly is one of them. Our joint Ka-226T project is implemented in line with the schedule, however, it is much to be done and we are at the very beginning. We also have a huge potential for developing aftersales maintenance and we will certainly discuss this matter with Madam Minister.”

After the said meeting,
Indo-Russia JV may sign contract for the supply of Ka-226T copters by early next year
"We discussed all aspects of the Ka-226T project. (It was) agreed that the contract should be signed in the beginning of 2018," Boginsky said.

But how many times have we heard this?

I don't know how we got ourselves into this pickle. If the Ka-226 was to be built by a private sector, and LUH by HAL, there would be pressure on both to deliver quickly. Now, there is pressure on none! May be no private sector wanted to touch the Ka-226.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2017 06:07

Indranil looks like KA226T wont make it.

The need for signing the contract has become moot.

Let's see if LUH fears it's trials.



What is its engine?

Dies HAL need more licenc

HAL_Light_Utility_Helicopter


It's the Shakti engine already being made.

Hope this clears hurdle

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 12 Dec 2017 06:11

Chhota Bhai was interested in the deal, but the Russians did not want to go with him.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 12 Dec 2017 07:43

Ramana sir,

Ka-226T for IA/IAF makes no sense now. LUH has almost caught up. We should give HAL orders for 400 LUH to be delivered in 10 years flat.

Ka-226T for immediate G2G for IN utility to be built by a private sector makes a lot of sense. ALH/LUH havn't showcased folding blades on anything but models and mockups yet. The only thing that Ka-226T hasn't showcased yet is torpedo carrying capability. Shouldn't be that difficult though.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2017 09:57

Karan M wrote: Perhaps best to buy more Mi-17s instead, at least they work well. IAF needs more medium lift choppers and HALs medium lift program is far out.

Mi 17 is not going to be Cheetah replacement considering the numbers needed, the heights that need to be reached. and the fuel/maintenance cost of much heavier helicopters operating at the extremes of its performance limits.

We need both - more medium lift choppers and more light helos.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 12 Dec 2017 09:59

Indranil wrote:LUH has almost caught up.

LUH is a helicopter that has 2-3 flying prototypes
Ka 226 is in serial production

That does not sound like "almost caught up" to me.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 12 Dec 2017 10:11

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:LUH has almost caught up.

LUH is a helicopter that has 2-3 flying prototypes
Ka 226 is in serial production

That does not sound like "almost caught up" to me.

The Ka-226T with the Turbomeca Arrius engines is not in serial production to my knowledge. The older version with the Allison engines was. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Even then, the Russians have produced 69 Ka-226 helicopters till now since its first flight in 1997. The Dhruv's first flight was in 1992 and HAL has built 230 of them.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Dec 2017 10:14

Kakkaji wrote:Chhota Bhai was interested in the deal, but the Russians did not want to go with him.


Chota bhai has completely burned his fingers with Chinese deals during in the 2005-10 period. Whatever contract he singed with Dassualt is non consequential.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2017 10:25

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote:LUH is a helicopter that has 2-3 flying prototypes
Ka 226 is in serial production

That does not sound like "almost caught up" to me.

The Ka-226T with the Turbomeca Arrius engines is not in serial production to my knowledge. The older version with the Allison engines was. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Even then, the Russians have produced 69 Ka-226 helicopters till now since its first flight in 1997. The Dhruv's first flight was in 1992 and HAL has built 230 of them.



Totally correct. I am now coming to Indranil point of view.
That Shakti engine is very good.

Hope HAL is serious.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kashi » 12 Dec 2017 10:42

Half the hullabaloo about the Rafale deal is because of Chhota bhai's involvement.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 12 Dec 2017 10:48

nachiket wrote:
shiv wrote:LUH is a helicopter that has 2-3 flying prototypes
Ka 226 is in serial production

That does not sound like "almost caught up" to me.

The Ka-226T with the Turbomeca Arrius engines is not in serial production to my knowledge. The older version with the Allison engines was. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Even then, the Russians have produced 69 Ka-226 helicopters till now since its first flight in 1997. The Dhruv's first flight was in 1992 and HAL has built 230 of them.


Ka-226T with French Engine and other improvements were made for Indian specfic requirement and demonstrated on test program. Since we are comfortable with French engine for hot and high requirement it was done to meet indian requirement https://www.safran-helicopter-engines.c ... arrius-2g1


The Arrius 2G1 has been selected by Russian Helicopters to power the twin-engine Ka-226T light helicopter.

Certified in November 2011, the Arrius 2G1 is capable of a take-off power of 720 shp and a cruise power of 610 shp. Maximum power available via the emergency One Engine Inoperative (OEI) rating is 792 shp.

The Arrius 2G1 is equipped with a Full Authority Digital Engine Control system (FADEC) and an overspeed protection system. Time Between Overhaul (TBO) is 3,000 hours.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 12 Dec 2017 11:34

The MI-8 Hip helo developed during the Sov, era will go down as perhaps the most iconic ever built.This bird was the most sought after helo in the Afghan wars used even by NATO forces were old MI-8s were much sought after at premium prices. However,the design still live son in the evn more improved version the MI-17V,of which we have obtained over 150 approx. and may get even more.A mystery to me why we never thought of manufacturing the helo when we bought so many from the Su/Ru. What is satisfying today is that after the aborted scam-ridden AW VVIP helo deal,MI-17s the successor variant o the MI-8 are being fitted out to do the same duty for the precious "cargo" of our VVIPs! A couple of air shows ago,there was a superb full size mockup of an MI_17 kitted out for VVIPs.I was amazed at the v.high quality of the interiors,more than adequate for precious backsides.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 387573.ece
Bidding adieu to a mighty warrior
Pankaja Srinivasan DECEMBER 11, 2017 00:00 IST

Life saviour:A file photo of an Mi-8 helicopter airlifting a person in Raichur, Karnataka.AFPAFP
The IAF is phasing out the Mi-8 helicopters

“It was probably the aircraft that was shot at the most,” says Air Marshal P.P. Rajkumar about the Mi-8 helicopter. He has logged more than 3,000 hours on the aircraft and has no hesitation in declaring that the most-produced helicopter in the world is a colossus.

The Mi-8 covered itself in glory and bullet wounds in the Siachen, during the IPKF operations in Sri Lanka and a UN Mission in Congo, besides coming under fire from insurgents in northeastern India. It has been part of several scientific expeditions to Antarctica. Now it is being phased out.

“The emotional bond we forged with the Mi-8 (also called Pratap in the IAF) was strong. Most of us started flying it in our 20s and probably associated more with the helicopter than with anyone else,” says Rajkumar. He knows engineers who remember the numbers of the aircraft they worked on even today long after they have forgotten their colleagues’ names.

Arrived in crates

The Mi-8s were inducted into the IAF in 1972 when they arrived in crates from erstwhile USSR to Mumbai where they were assembled and test-flown by Russian and Indian teams before being despatched to their first unit in Assam. Having the Russians service the aircraft was an expensive business and soon IAF personnel took over its complete maintenance. Air Vice Marshal R. Somnath, an engineer who has worked with the Mi-8 for decades, proudly says, “Our engineers were second to none. They primped and primed the aircraft for its sorties – flood relief, military operations or VVIP movement.”

Somnath recalls how two Mi-8s were modified and made ready for the Shimla Agreement in 1972. One was to fly President Zulfikar Ali Bhutto of Pakistan and his daughter Benazir Bhutto, and the other Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. The original purely functional bucket seats were replaced with fancier seats re-appropriated from the L-1049 Super Constellation. “The Super Constellations were lying with Air India and they were only too happy to hand over eight seats to us,” says Somnath. The seats were installed in the Mi-8s after careful and crucial modifications and the VVIPs made that 20-minute flight from Chandigarh to Shimla and back in comfort!

Air Commodore RM Sridharan, who has flown many VIPs including Pope John Paul II (who gifted him with a rosary and blessed him), Margaret Thatcher during the CHOGM retreat at Goa, recalls his last trip with Indira Gandhi. It was on October 30, 1984, during a tour of Orissa. “From Gopalpur, we flew her to Bhubaneswar airport. The following morning as we were ferrying the Mi-8 back to Delhi we heard of her assassination!” On landing at Delhi, Sridharan was detailed to be in the funeral parade. “Days after I had flown her, I walked 15 km on her funeral route.”

Former Air Chief Fali Major was a founding member of the VVIP Helicopter Flight in Palam, Delhi, from where the Mi-8s flew only VVIPs. He calls the Mi-8 ‘iconic’ and, like most other Mi-8 Air Warriors, also describes it as ‘forgiving’. “We were in Kashmir valley. We had already flown several sorties from a place called Gurez to various forward posts. We wouldn’t switch off between each sortie but in our third or fourth landing at Gurez, we noticed the ground crew gesticulating frantically to us to switch off. Not very pleased, we did; only to find out that, instead of turbine fuel, our helicopter was flying on high-octane fuel!” Major says he also has the dubious distinction of being involved in the first Mi-8 accident in Chalunka, Ladakh. “Instead of four cross bolts, only two anchored the rotor to the helicopter fuselage that had already flown over 350 hours before they sheared off on that fateful day!”

Engineering marvel

For Group Captain Ravi Kumar, an engineer, an incident that stands out in his memory is a weekend at Yelahanka, Bengaluru. “An Mi-8 was returning to base from an assignment and, to our horror, we saw its left main wheel was missing as it approached for landing. It must have dropped off mid-flight! We took a snap decision to do something perhaps never done before; we fixed the wheel on the helicopter even as it hovered and the Mi-8 landed, safely!” Ravi Kumar calls the Mi-8 an engineering marvel, robust and simple in design and technology.

Thousands of sorties

The helicopter has flown thousands of sorties during natural calamities and Wing Commander Yella Reddy was one of the pilots who scrambled on receiving news that a bus had been swept into a river 60 km north of Cudappah at a place called Chagalamarri. The water had flooded the bus and its 65 occupants had clambered on to its roof where they spent the night.

“We began operations and, with the weather, fuel and the setting sun stacked against us, we began winching up the stranded. We knew that the passengers had to be pulled to safety as they would not survive another night on the bus rooftop. In between dashing back to Cudappah for refuelling we rescued them all, well after the sun had set. The solid Mi-8 made this possible.”

R.K. Sharma, the Commanding Officer of 112 HU in Yelahanka, was not even born when the magnificent machine was inducted into the IAF and he says, “It is emotional for me. As a rookie pilot, I was trained in this helicopter and now I will go down in IAF History as I fly it for one last time.”

Pankaja Srinivasan

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 12 Dec 2017 11:50

Austin wrote:Ka-226T with French Engine and other improvements were made for Indian specfic requirement and demonstrated on test program. Since we are comfortable with French engine for hot and high requirement it was done to meet indian requirement https://www.safran-helicopter-engines.c ... arrius-2g1


The Arrius 2G1 has been selected by Russian Helicopters to power the twin-engine Ka-226T light helicopter.

Certified in November 2011, the Arrius 2G1 is capable of a take-off power of 720 shp and a cruise power of 610 shp. Maximum power available via the emergency One Engine Inoperative (OEI) rating is 792 shp.

The Arrius 2G1 is equipped with a Full Authority Digital Engine Control system (FADEC) and an overspeed protection system. Time Between Overhaul (TBO) is 3,000 hours.

Austin, that link does not say it was selected for Indian requirement specifically. What am I missing?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 12 Dec 2017 12:00

The 2G version was selected,certified for Ru orders giving better performance than the Allison. French engines bought also for the KA-62.The highly successful Su Superjet 100,uses a Power Jet (Safran/NPO Saturn)engine too.Russia has been using EU engines extensively for its civil airliner and helo products.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 12 Dec 2017 12:05

Nachiket sir,

Because, it was not. Kamov signed the MOU with safran in 2002. India entered the scene only in 2004.

Basically Kamov had a twin engines aircraft which could not operate if one of the engines failed. They wanted to rectify this.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 12 Dec 2017 12:06

Philip wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 387573.ece
Bidding adieu to a mighty warrior
Pankaja Srinivasan DECEMBER 11, 2017 00:00 IST

For Group Captain Ravi Kumar, an engineer, an incident that stands out in his memory is a weekend at Yelahanka, Bengaluru. “An Mi-8 was returning to base from an assignment and, to our horror, we saw its left main wheel was missing as it approached for landing. It must have dropped off mid-flight! We took a snap decision to do something perhaps never done before; we fixed the wheel on the helicopter even as it hovered and the Mi-8 landed, safely!” Ravi Kumar calls the Mi-8 an engineering marvel, robust and simple in design and technology.

Pankaja Srinivasan


:eek: Holy ^%$# The balls on those guys!

Nonchalantly attaching a wheel underneath a huge helicopter when it is hovering just feet above the ground

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 12 Dec 2017 12:35

Indranil wrote:Nachiket sir,

Because, it was not. Kamov signed the MOU with safran in 2002. India entered the scene only in 2004.

Basically Kamov had a twin engines aircraft which could not operate if one of the engines failed. They wanted to rectify this.

That's what I thought. And please no "sir" for me. :eek:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 12 Dec 2017 23:03

Manish_P wrote:Nonchalantly attaching a wheel underneath a huge helicopter when it is hovering just feet above the ground


Thanks for clarifying that!

Hope they benchmark the other choppers in the inventory aganist this use case,

The helicopter has flown thousands of sorties during natural calamities and Wing Commander Yella Reddy was one of the pilots who scrambled on receiving news that a bus had been swept into a river 60 km north of Cudappah at a place called Chagalamarri. The water had flooded the bus and its 65 occupants had clambered on to its roof where they spent the night.

“We began operations and, with the weather, fuel and the setting sun stacked against us, we began winching up the stranded. We knew that the passengers had to be pulled to safety as they would not survive another night on the bus rooftop. In between dashing back to Cudappah for refuelling we rescued them all, well after the sun had set. The solid Mi-8 made this possible.”

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 12 Dec 2017 23:04

Indranil ji
No sir for me either

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 13 Dec 2017 03:36

Why weren't Mi-8/17 licensed produced in India?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 13 Dec 2017 04:34

A snippet about the KA226T from this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=2237004#p2237004

...While talking about the India-Russia joint venture contract for production of 200 Kamov 226T helicopters for the Indian armed forces, Kladov said he is hopeful that Russia would start supplying helicopters by the end of 2018, if the contract is signed in the beginning of 2018.

"I hope you (India) start receiving the first batch of helicopters by the end of 2018, if the contract is signed in January-February of 2018. But if the contract is signed at the end of 2018, then you will receive it in 2019. People are asking us when the contract will be signed but it is no longer our business, it is the business of the joint venture team. It is the joint venture team which is looking into it, which is largely controlled by the Indian side," Kladov said....



So Indranil or anyone where would LUH be at end of 2019?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2017 06:32

At AI'17, HAL said that the plan was to freeze the design by end of 2017 and get "basic certification" by mid-2018.

Today, the HAL chairman reiterated those dates at a vendors conference.

So, may be end-2018 for IOC and start of limited serial production. Unlike LCA, they can ramp up pretty fast though on the LUH. They have amassed a lot of experience from ALH production, and LUH is like chota bhai of ALH. I think even the prototypes came from some existing jigs.

Having said that, I think Ka-226s are a done deal. Not a good one though, IMHO.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 13 Dec 2017 06:55

Old but relevant article on LUH milestones:

its circa 2016

http://bharatshakti.in/light-helicopter ... -prevails/

By Lt. Gen. B.S. Pawar(R)

Simultaneously, HAL’s new Light Utility Helicopter (LUH) Project ( 3 Ton class ) which is expected to make its first flight this month seems to be on track. According to HAL projections, the LUH would complete flight certification by mid-2017 :?: :?: :?: and enter production by the year-end. HAL is required to provide 187 LUH’s in the overall requirement of 400 plus by the Armed Forces in this category – these will be built at HAL’s new facility at Tumkur, where the foundation stone was laid by the Prime Minister in January this year.


It is important to note that the HAL’s main focus remains the LUH and LCH projects with the LCH slated to enter service by end of this year. The HAL is also expected to ensure that it meets the Prime Ministers directive to roll out the first LUH by end of 2017. The success of the LUH programme in the timeframe envisaged above, may ring the death knell for the Ka-226T, if no headway is made for negotiating the contract by end of this year. The Government needs to simultaneously keep the RSH programme also going forward to cater for inordinate delays and bottlenecks in the Ka-226T project.

In addition HAL’s helicopter division is also fully involved in meeting its current and future obligations to the Services in terms of a large orders for additional ALHs and Rudras, while simultaneously addressing their critical maintenance and serviceability issues. It is crystal clear from the above that HAL’s Helicopter Division has already bitten more than it can chew and therefore will it have the commitment and time to fulfil its obligations towards the Crucial Ka-226T programme.


So where is HAL on the above LUH milestones?
- Complete flight trials by mid 2017. Ajay Shukla says more like end of 2017 LINK
- Roll out LUH from Benguluru by end of 2017.

Full scale production from Tumkur in 2018/2019

HAL intends to speed up flight-testing of the LUH by distributing flight-testing over three prototypes. It hopes to obtain initial operational certification by end-2017.

Limited Series Production will be done in Bengaluru, and the 610-acre Tumakuru unit is slated to commence series production in 2018-19. The defence ministry told Parliament in a statement on July 29: “The initial investment for the [Tumakuru] project could be of the order of Rs 2000 crore.”

According to HAL’s internal manufacturing targets, the Tumakuru plant will ship about 30 LUHs annually, starting in 2019-20. In Phase II, which will take another 3-4 years, production will be ramped up to 60 helicopters per year.




I know LUH has made a 15 min inaugural flight in Sep 2016.
Since then its dead silence.

Its nearly end of 2017 and no updates on flight certification.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 13 Dec 2017 07:11

Right after my complaint about no news on LUH comes this article:

Aerospace industry eyes biz worth Rs 12,500 cr.

On Tuesday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) offered the aerospace vendors that feed its aircraft assembly lines a tantalising glimpse of major business opportunities ahead, adding up to some Rs 12,500 crore.

HAL Chairman T Suvarna Raju told a gathering of the company’s vendors in Bengaluru that they would soon participate in building 100 trainer aircraft — the indigenously designed Hindustan Turbo Trainer–40 (HTT-40). In addition, the Light Utility Helicopter (LUH), of which the Indian Air Force is committed to buying 187 pieces, is nearing certification.


“Given our large number of platforms with the Indian defence forces, we remain committed to increase the scope of work to our vendors to ensure success of our programmes. HAL is looking to produce 100 basic trainer aircraft HTT-40 soon, once spin tests are completed in the coming months. In the rotary wing segment, our efforts are on to achieve basic certification of LUH by the middle of 2018”, said Raju. :(( :(( :((

In 2013, then IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne wrote to the defence minister stating that the HTT-40 would cost Rs 59.31 crore in 2018, and escalate by 2020 to Rs 64.77 crore. That letter was intended to scuttle the HTT-40 project as too expensive, and make a case for importing more Pilatus PC-7 Mark II trainers from Switzerland. (An investigation needs to be carried out on the conduct of Browne to see if he was just pulling out these wild figures to favor Pilatus)

Now, however, it has emerged that HAL will build the HTT-40 for an affordable Rs 45 crore apiece. With the defence ministry having already approved the procurement of 106 indigenous trainers for the IAF, this would translate into business worth about Rs 5,000 crore for the aerospace sector.

HAL has managed to develop the indigenous trainer for a frugal Rs 450 crore, employing internal company funds, Raju told Business Standard in July. An additional Rs 120 crore will go on establishing the HTT-40 manufacturing line.

Separately, the manufacture of 187 LUHs, each costing an estimated Rs 40 crore according to internal HAL estimations, will generate business worth Rs 7,500 crore for the aerospace industry.

HAL says indigenisation levels in these platforms would be as high as 80 per cent, given that many imported components, sub-systems and systems would be progressively manufactured in India under transfer of technology. That means Rs 2,500 crore would flow abroad to global original equipment manufacturers (OEMs). Even so, Indian aerospace vendors, for the most part micro, small and medium enterprises (MSMEs) that depend almost entirely on government orders, see the remaining Rs 10,000 crore as a significant opportunity.

Business is also expected to flow from a separate acquisition of 197 Kamov-226T light helicopters, which Russian helicopter manufacturer, Kamov, will initially supply ready-built, and then transfer technology to progressively manufacture in HAL.


In manufacturing aircraft like the Jaguar, Sukhoi-30MKI and the Hawk trainer, HAL had monopolised most of the manufacturing work, relying on very little outsourcing. More recently, the manufacture of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) has seen HAL assume the role of “systems integrator”, with a significant percentage of the supply chain outsourced to private aerospace industry. In the future, HAL envisages functioning exclusively as a systems integrator, with a private industry supply chain feeding in components, sub-systems, systems and even major assemblies like the forward, middle and rear fuselage.


So HAL thinks both KA 226T and LUH will be built by them. One as JV and the other in house.

But note the flight certification date slip to mid 2018.
And no reasons.
Good news is price of LUH will be Rs. 40 Crores.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 13 Dec 2017 07:16

ramana wrote:I know LUH has made a 15 min inaugural flight in Sep 2016.
Since then its dead silence.

Its nearly end of 2017 and no updates on flight certification.

Saar it made an aerobatics demo at Aero India 2017. (Youtube link) The second prototype has also flown : Link

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 13 Dec 2017 07:21

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote: Perhaps best to buy more Mi-17s instead, at least they work well. IAF needs more medium lift choppers and HALs medium lift program is far out.

Mi 17 is not going to be Cheetah replacement considering the numbers needed, the heights that need to be reached. and the fuel/maintenance cost of much heavier helicopters operating at the extremes of its performance limits.

We need both - more medium lift choppers and more light helos.


I was talking from the perspective of giving the russians "something", if you must do that, give them something that at least we can use.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2017 09:17

Karan M wrote:I was talking from the perspective of giving the russians "something", if you must do that, give them something that at least we can use.

The idea that Russians must be given something or that something is done to please the Russians brings along with it the complication that they control what to supply and they control what would please them. The maximum we could do is to reach compromise on what would please them and what we need. The Russians, I am sure would be pleased to dump anything on us that would make them some bucks and if we take BR forum wishes as Indian national objectives we would be buying Tu22s and rejecting Ka-226. In my view that would be a serious error.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2017 17:16

Further delays, more inevitable Chetak incidents and the services as usual get shafted.The issue is akin to the bird in hand and the promise of a Desi one in the bish.These birds should've come in 5 yrs ago.There's enough space for both with a 400+ market. We need approx 40-50/yr to replace exg geriatrics and extra needs .I can't see that happening at the HAL rate of production.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 13 Dec 2017 17:27

Philip wrote:Further delays, more inevitable Chetak incidents and the services as usual get shafted.The issue is akin to the bird in hand and the promise of a Desi one in the bish.These birds should've come in 5 yrs ago.There's enough space for both with a 400+ market. We need approx 40-50/yr to replace exg geriatrics and extra needs .I can't see that happening at the HAL rate of production.



Most of the KA226s will be made by HAL too! And in roughly the same time period as the LUH.

The helo arm of HAL has good production rates, what are you talking about? Not everything is equal equal with LCA.

In the end, you will have HAL’s time and resources going into a screwdriver giri where funds are pushed overseas instead of using those same man hours and resources on an indigenous LUH that is also superior to our needs in altidude.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2017 17:51

srai wrote:Why weren't Mi-8/17 licensed produced in India?

Oh, they are "licensed produced" to the same degree that HAL "license produced" 40 2007 Su-30s and 42 2012 Su-30s orders

They are assembled at 3 Base Repair Depot at Chandigarh

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 037_1.html

Chandigarh Airforce base No 3 Repair Depot, which is the only airforce base in the country to carry out repair, overhaul and maintenance of MI-8 and MI-17 helicopters will assemble upgraded version of MI-17 helicopters called MI-17V5 helicopters in India in association with Russian partner Kazan plant, Russia. The Indian Air Force Base has placed order for 80 units of MI-17V5 helicopters to Russia.

Already they have received four helicopters in CKD (Complete knocked down) form and it is targeting to assemble 80 MI 17 V5 helicopters in next three years. Besides this, they also carry out repair, maintenance and overhaul of AN 32 transport aircraft.


http://archive.indianexpress.com/news/f ... rd/855194/
The first lot of the much-awaited advanced helicopters Mi-17 V5 has been received from Russia by 3 Base Repair Depot at Chandigarh Air Force Station. In the first lot, four dismantled helicopters accompanied by their Russian specialists were received by the 3BRD on September 29...Being the largest air force repair depot in the country, the remaining lot of 76 vehicles is also expected to be assembled here.


3 BRD does upgrades like HAL does DARIN upgrades to Jaguar & MiG-27UPG

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 889262.cms
Mi-17, medium lift helicopters used by the Indian Air Force (IAF), are all set for upgradation at Chandigarh-based air force station, 3-Base Repair Depot (3-BRD). As per the plans, Mi-17 would be retrofitted with smart displays, new cockpit, digital voice recorder, missile launch detection system, cables, breaks and other new avionics.


Also does overhauls

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 889262.cms
So far, it has done overhauling of 897 helicopters of Mi 17 version and around 3,493 aero engines. Choppers come at 3BRD after completion of 2,000 flying hours or 10-year period for overhauling. It takes the depot maximum 120-days to overhaul a chopper.


http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 75161.html
“A new line for overhauling the Mi-17 V5 indigenously is also being set up at 3 BRD. This will be ready in 2019 by which time the first V5 variants would be due for their first major overhaul,” Air Cmde Sinha said.


3 BRD does everything that HAL does.

Both An-32 and MiG-29 upgrades were done at IAF BRDs

Mi-17 is a big revenue generator for Russians, so they didnt allow anyone to "manufacture from raw material phase".
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Dec 2017 19:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 13 Dec 2017 18:55

From an acquisition timelines perspective, the Ka-226 vs LUH scenario is similar to the Pilatus vs HTT-40 situation. Albeit the latter was only on drawing boards at the time. It looks like we will end up buying both and lets hope thats for the best.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2017 19:28

Aditya G wrote:From an acquisition timelines perspective, the Ka-226 vs LUH scenario is similar to the Pilatus vs HTT-40 situation. Albeit the latter was only on drawing boards at the time. It looks like we will end up buying both and lets hope thats for the best.

HTT-40 wasnt there when a Deepak replacement was required, hence Pilatus was justified. LUH is there and hopefully successfully completing its testing rapidly with certification in next 6 month.

I bat for LUH and hope our legendary bureaucratic process does what it does best in the next 6 months and Ka-226 goes the same way of the numerous contenders of multiple artillery competitions before Dhanush & ATAGS.
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Dec 2017 19:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2017 19:30

tsarkar wrote:
Aditya G wrote:From an acquisition timelines perspective, the Ka-226 vs LUH scenario is similar to the Pilatus vs HTT-40 situation. Albeit the latter was only on drawing boards at the time. It looks like we will end up buying both and lets hope thats for the best.

HTT-40 wasnt there when a Deepak replacement was required, hence Pilatus was justified. LUH is there and hopefully successfully completing its testing rapidly. I bat for LUH.

Deepak replacement was there - HTT 34 but that was refused. Will try and post link by retired Air Force officer who pointed this out.

I had posted this a few days ago elsewhere
3. Another senior IAF officer has written in his memoirs that he test flew the HTT 34 and found that its performance was good and that its stall and spin characteristics were like the HTT 32. he goes on to write that if we had selected it, we would not have had to look abroad for a basic trainer.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2017 19:37

shiv wrote:Deepak replacement was there - HTT 34 but that was refused. Will try and post link by retired Air Force officer who pointed this out.

HTT-34 borrowed from the Navy BN-2T Islander program and replaced the original piston engine with a turboprop engine.

HTT-34 didnt solve the fuel starvation issue. Whether Textron Lycoming EIO-540-D4B5 piston engine of HPT-32 or Allison 250-B17D turboprop engine of HTT-34, the engine starved of fuel in certain flight regimes.

The very same piston engines flew with Indian Navy BN-2 Islanders and very same turboprop engines flew with IN BN-2T Islanders for decades without any fuel starvation issues. They were donated to Myanmar after that. Here are ex-IN BN-2 Islanders in Myanmar Navy

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india/mya ... VcXIP.html
The Indian Navy (IN) is in the process of transferring two BN-2 'Defender' Islander maritime surveillance aircraft to Myanmar, an add-on to the pair it had supplied the military junta in August 2006


Image

Fuel supply design issue of HPT-32/HTT-34 design were never resolved, irrespective of engine.

BRF members blamed the engine, but Islanders using the very same piston & turboprop engines never faced any fuel starvation issues for decades in India and now Myanmar.

Maz has good photos of both BN-2 & BN-2T (with red hub caps) here http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Avia ... ander.html
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Dec 2017 19:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2017 19:44

tsarkar wrote:
Fuel supply design issue of HPT-32/HTT-34 design were never resolved, irrespective of engine. BRF members blamed the engine, but Islanders using the very same piston & turbine engines never faced any fuel starvation issues.

No Sir. It was the HPT 32 fuel supply issue that was never solved. The HTT 34 had a new turboprop engine and a totally different fuel supply system.

Also Sir, which turbo prop engine was used on the Islander? I can find no information about that - only the piston engine

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 Dec 2017 19:51

OK I found that - the Turboprop Islander has the Allison 250 engine that was placed on the HTT 34

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2017 19:52

shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Fuel supply design issue of HPT-32/HTT-34 design were never resolved, irrespective of engine. BRF members blamed the engine, but Islanders using the very same piston & turbine engines never faced any fuel starvation issues.

No Sir. It was the HPT 32 fuel supply issue that was never solved. The HTT 34 had a new turboprop engine and a totally different fuel supply system.

Also Sir, which turbo prop engine was used on the Islander? I can find no information about that - only the piston engine


The HTT-34 was a simple engine change - fuel lines layout was never changed.

I've added the Piston & Turbine engine details in my earlier post. The red hub cap aircraft have markings BN-2T indicating Turboprop.

HAL used both engines because of their stable performance in the Islanders.

The upgrade of piston to turboprop of Islanders was copied by HAL for HPT-32 to HTT-34 after their successful performance in Islanders.

The fuel lines layout were unchanged, whether Islander or HTT-34.

If HAL had changed the fuel lines layout for HTT-34, then it could've retrofitted the new layout in HPT-32 and that would've solved the issue.

That never happened - because there was no new fuel line layout.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 13 Dec 2017 20:38

CAG. 32% deficiency in fleet of Cheetahs/Chetaks,52% more than 30 yrs old.The AAC is in a crisis and needs LUHs as of a few yrs. ago.Nitpicking about the already selected KA-226 must end in the interests of our troops in exceptionally hostile environments.Had the HAL LUH completed its trials one can understand.The AAC can't wait a few years before the bird arrives.The situ with the IN and ASW helo crisis prompting the hastened decision to buy 24 Sik-72 helos is a case in point.


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