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Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 31 Mar 2017 12:15

This PBL contract by HAL is a welcome step. Currently the availability of all HAL platform are at 65%. Now if HAL can jack up all of it to 75% that would be excellent. This will give a good experience for HAL in managing MRO logistics and will give them huge monetary incentive to HAL to keep improving various parts and modules of sold system incrementally so that they reduce their cost on spare parts and overhauls and increase their margins. Also if they sell their HW outside India and can manage to keep 75% availability even at the expense of some losses initially, it would be worth it since that would build a good brand reputation to HAL and Indian MIC overall.

Another positive point from a company perspective is PBL gives a good quantity of business spread over much longer time, bringing in stability to their business and over the period they can improve their profit margins.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 31 Mar 2017 12:19


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 31 Mar 2017 12:19

^^ the PBL is a very good move with proper analysis of consumable utilization and parts replacement with logistic centers across nationally.

It is these essential steps that will result in better usability and acceptance by end users, unlike INSAS that were thrown out of railway wagons to users with a shrug,"go figure" by manufacturers.

PBL provides extremely smooth logistics support with manufacturer accountability that results in high availability resulting in better fulfilling of operational tasks that improves appraisal ratings and hence promotion prospects.

The soldier focuses on better ways of fighting the enemy with full mind than worrying about equipment reliability in one part of his mind.

Worth every penny invested.

My appreciation to TSR, HAL & MoD for bringing about this transformation.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 31 Mar 2017 12:34

tsarkar wrote:
The soldier focuses on better ways of fighting the enemy with full mind than worrying about equipment reliability in one part of his mind.



+100

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 31 Mar 2017 12:41

Overall a good OEM move. Lessons from Boeing C-17 deals being applied here.

This will reduce maintenance responsibilities of Base Repair Depots. HAL has offered PBL for Su-30MKI as well. There was a report of in-fighting with BRD over workshare though.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vina » 31 Mar 2017 13:13

srai wrote:Overall a good OEM move. Lessons from Boeing C-17 deals being applied here.

This will reduce maintenance responsibilities of Base Repair Depots. HAL has offered PBL for Su-30MKI as well. There was a report of in-fighting with BRD over workshare though.

That is why the empire builders within the IAF will fight tooth and nail over it and will not allow it to come about in any significant way for the imported platforms from Russia.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 31 Mar 2017 13:22

Salient points - http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/03/i ... -cent.html

This is the first time an Indian manufacturer is guaranteeing the performance of a weapons platform to a buyer through a PBL contract. HAL is charging roughly half the purchase price of each helicopter for providing the services, maintenance, spare parts and inspections needed to keep 75 per cent of the contracted fleet fly-worthy at all times.

As I said earlier, worth every penny and cheaper in the long run

the MoD said today: “PBL ensures the availability of products to the customer while the responsibility gets transferred to the contractor. The PBL envisages rewards or penalties based on the performance [of the fleet]”.


Now this PBL contract will expand HAL’s maintenance responsibility substantially. The Dhruv currently operates off 15 aviation bases, which will go up to 40 bases by the time the new order is executed....

HAL would set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) hub in the north and another in the east, from where repair teams could react to maintenance requests from aviation bases in their vicinities.

HAL improves its business & revenue. More employment generation. Local economies too improve providing services to the MRO centers.

This year, HAL will complete delivery of an earlier contract for 159 Dhruvs, of which 83 are utility versions and 76 are an armed version called the Rudra...

Production capacity is being ramped up for the new contract for 73 Dhruvs (Army: 41; Navy: 16, Coast Guard: 16). In addition to production at Bengaluru, a new plant will come up at Kanpur to build Dhruvs.


I am given to understand that IA & IAF Chetaks are being retired and replaced by Dhruv. The Cheetah still awaits LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 31 Mar 2017 13:37

76 rudras armed with ATGM and rockets in squadrons of 12 each would be a formidable power - most AF do not have that many gunships.

but they need the get the helina in service and stop this spike/pars circus

does anyone know if all the 76 are now operational and the IA squadrons using it ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 31 Mar 2017 13:54

Good Deal though PBL sounds expensive and we do not know the duration , eg Rafale PBL is valid for 3 years and it is expensive

HAL should opt for PBL based system for all its manufacturing type fighters and helicopters , Jags,MKI should be the next goal.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 31 Mar 2017 16:46

Austin wrote:Good Deal though PBL sounds expensive and we do not know the duration , eg Rafale PBL is valid for 3 years and it is expensive.

The duration is for 5 years, as mentioned in the article above.
Austin wrote:HAL should opt for PBL based system for all its manufacturing type fighters and helicopters , Jags,MKI should be the next goal.

I think they already offer it for Hawk in partnership with BAe and would be looking at offering it for all the products they have developed and manufactured in house. As for MKI they would need to get a lot more contracts with OEM's in place before they can offer the same to IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 31 Mar 2017 17:54

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Austin wrote:Good Deal though PBL sounds expensive and we do not know the duration , eg Rafale PBL is valid for 3 years and it is expensive.

The duration is for 5 years, as mentioned in the article above.
Austin wrote:HAL should opt for PBL based system for all its manufacturing type fighters and helicopters , Jags,MKI should be the next goal.

I think they already offer it for Hawk in partnership with BAe and would be looking at offering it for all the products they have developed and manufactured in house. As for MKI they would need to get a lot more contracts with OEM's in place before they can offer the same to IAF.


HAL had offered PBL or similar type of deal for MKI but IAF didn't take it, IIRC. This is discussed on Su-30 thread already. PBL costs a lot of upfront money. Of coarse it could be a better deal for both the customer and the OEM in long term, but upfront costs can be prohibitive sometimes, especially if its for a fleet as big as 272 Su-30MKI. IIRC, the spares depot HAL set up at Nashik for Su-30MKI to improve its serviceability cost them 2000Cr or something like that. The problem with Su-30MKI is orders for spares were piecemeal which would hinder making long term contracts for spares. Thankfully its being solved now. We should see Su-30MKI at 75% availability rates soon.

IMO, once our forces have a majority portion of desi products they can reduce the MRO work they do in-house. I think its cheaper to maintain MRO facilities outside the forces by the OEMs or other MRO specialist companies. And it would make our forces leaner as well. They can retain only as much maintenance capabilities that are required to keep any system operational in the field while off-loading all the deep checks, repairs and overhauls to OEMs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 31 Mar 2017 20:24

vina wrote:
srai wrote:Overall a good OEM move. Lessons from Boeing C-17 deals being applied here.

This will reduce maintenance responsibilities of Base Repair Depots. HAL has offered PBL for Su-30MKI as well. There was a report of in-fighting with BRD over workshare though.

That is why the empire builders within the IAF will fight tooth and nail over it and will not allow it to come about in any significant way for the imported platforms from Russia.


No reason why some of these BRDs cannot be taken over by HAL.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 31 Mar 2017 23:46

India Russia make progress towards Ka-226T helicopter production

NEW DELHI — India and Russia have drawn the road map for the joint production of Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters in the South Asian country, kick-starting the $1 billion program.

"With the road map now in place, the production of Kamov 226T helicopters has formally taken off," said a top executive of the state enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which was the production agency nominated by the two nations.

Gopal Sutar, the chief of media communications at HAL, said: "The helicopters are to be produced through a joint venture company as per the intergovernment agreement between the two countries in October 2016, and the road map for the acquisition is finalized."

The joint production of the helicopters in India now awaits formal approval by Russian President Vladimir Putin, which will lead to the new production entity Indo-Russian Helicopters Private Limited.

..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 01 Apr 2017 01:39

Kartik wrote:India Russia make progress towards Ka-226T helicopter production

NEW DELHI — India and Russia have drawn the road map for the joint production of Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters in the South Asian country, kick-starting the $1 billion program.

"With the road map now in place, the production of Kamov 226T helicopters has formally taken off," said a top executive of the state enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which was the production agency nominated by the two nations.

Gopal Sutar, the chief of media communications at HAL, said: "The helicopters are to be produced through a joint venture company as per the intergovernment agreement between the two countries in October 2016, and the road map for the acquisition is finalized."

The joint production of the helicopters in India now awaits formal approval by Russian President Vladimir Putin, which will lead to the new production entity Indo-Russian Helicopters Private Limited.

..


I definitely missed that one till now. A JV..? I thought its HAL doing license production.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 01 Apr 2017 03:01

http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2520739.html

First naval Ka-226 delivered to Russian home ministry. Would prefer to see it in Indian Navy as well. Imagine one chopper on the ship with ASW, AEW, SAR and passenger config modules stowed away and swapped as per requirement. It has 2 engines which IN likes and has wheels which as suitable for ships. Small dimensions means is an added plus.

Compared to the "land" version of the light multi-purpose helicopter Ka-226T has a ship-based blades folding rotor system, equipped with an advanced set of on-board equipment, and helicopter components adapted for use in an aggressive marine environment. Due to the small size machine can be placed on ships and ships of small tonnage. It is planned that the ship Ka-226T will be used as patrol and search-and-rescue vehicles, as well as a transport helicopter.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ShauryaT » 01 Apr 2017 03:15

What kind of ASW or AEW can fit on to a KA-226?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 01 Apr 2017 03:33

Gopal Sutar, the chief of media communications at HAL, said: "The helicopters are to be produced through a joint venture company as per the intergovernment agreement between the two countries in October 2016, and the road map for the acquisition is finalized."

The joint production of the helicopters in India now awaits formal approval by Russian President Vladimir Putin, which will lead to the new production entity Indo-Russian Helicopters Private Limited.


I am assuming that a JV means something like Brahmos Corp, where in the above Pvt entity can improve the designs? So probably the above Pvt entity will have full access to Ka-226's design & certification documentation along with production drawings. Sweet. Hope to see this org up & running.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 01 Apr 2017 09:29

Kartik wrote:India Russia make progress towards Ka-226T helicopter production

NEW DELHI — India and Russia have drawn the road map for the joint production of Kamov Ka-226T light utility helicopters in the South Asian country, kick-starting the $1 billion program.

"With the road map now in place, the production of Kamov 226T helicopters has formally taken off," said a top executive of the state enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which was the production agency nominated by the two nations.

Gopal Sutar, the chief of media communications at HAL, said: "The helicopters are to be produced through a joint venture company as per the intergovernment agreement between the two countries in October 2016, and the road map for the acquisition is finalized."

The joint production of the helicopters in India now awaits formal approval by Russian President Vladimir Putin, which will lead to the new production entity Indo-Russian Helicopters Private Limited.

..


The later part of this report lists several issues still to be resolved between the parties concerned, and several steps still to be completed before a purchase order can be issued. In my opinion, it will be at least 2 years before a contract can be signed.

This bird is not likely to show up in Indian inventory in this decade IMHO.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vasu raya » 01 Apr 2017 20:55

Aditya G wrote:.
First naval Ka-226 delivered to Russian home ministry. Would prefer to see it in Indian Navy as well. Imagine one chopper on the ship with ASW, AEW, SAR and passenger config modules stowed away and swapped as per requirement. It has 2 engines which IN likes and has wheels which as suitable for ships. Small dimensions means is an added plus.


Moreover, they should add to the contract that India can develop more specialist modules as it sees fit.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Apr 2017 09:40

Just 24 ALHs last financial year. (I thought we can make them 36/yr) :|

Some of the highlights of the FY 2016-17 included production of 12 Su-30 MkI aircraft in Phase-IV, 24 ALH, overhauling of 197 aircraft / helicopters, 473 engines and production of 178 new aero-structures.

http://www.newindianexpress.com/busines ... 88930.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Apr 2017 09:47

Austin wrote:Good Deal though PBL sounds expensive and we do not know the duration , eg Rafale PBL is valid for 3 years and it is expensive

HAL should opt for PBL based system for all its manufacturing type fighters and helicopters , Jags,MKI should be the next goal.


The Performance Based Logistics (PBL) support for five years for 16 helicopters for ICG is the unique feature of this contract.

http://www.hal-india.com/HAL%20Opens%20 ... rd/ND__193

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 03 Apr 2017 10:49

The KA-226 should be std. eqpt. (helo deck only) for our 16 "shallow water corvettes" which are supposed to come in at around 750-800t each.With a one ton payload,the modular cabins could be designed to house a small dipping sonar ,plus an operator console/data commns. to the mother vessel and carry two lwt torpedoes.Our new LWT/ALWT Shyena is just 225kg,only 2.75M long,dia,324mm. Not much news about the improved version.Mihir either.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Apr 2017 00:47

Putin gives nod to joint venture for manufacturing Kamov helicopters

NEW DELHI: Russian President Vladimir Putin has finally given the go ahead for setting up an Indo-Russian joint venture for production of Kamov military helicopters for India under a $1 billion deal inked in 2015.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 06 Apr 2017 02:32

Phillip bhaji
mithayiaan ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 06 Apr 2017 08:09

Mera bharat Mahaan!! It must rank as a first - patriotic Indians celebrating the failure of domestic efforts and hailing imports. In most other countries it is the exact opposite. Is it time for a East Russsia Company to take over India?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 06 Apr 2017 08:31

It's just a principle approval to set up the JV company that will manufacture the chopper not the purchase of the helicopter as it is. There is still a lot more haggling to be done before the actual order will be placed, I believe.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby kvraghav » 06 Apr 2017 09:47

I think we should worry less about indegenization and more about best for the defense forces. If we want best of the german cars and even buy innova crysta against a better car like tata Hexa, i think brand value does matters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 06 Apr 2017 09:50

I think there is no other go. Our entire Himalayan belt depends on helicopter supply and onanism about making hajaar LUH will still not make up the numbers we need. Some slack will have to be taken up by Ka 226 - after all the delays

Cross posting
https://www.wsj.com/articles/india-move ... 1491384609
On top of New Delhi’s construction list is the 34-mile stretch to Taksing, a strategic border village at 8,000 feet above sea level where soldiers rely on helicopters and basket-wielding porters for fuel, eggs, sugar and any other supplies. A government agency headed by a military general is tasked with the job.

Helicopter flights into Taksing are waylaid once in every five trips by unpredictable weather, a key reason military planners want a road here.

The project’s budget was doubled last year. Its deadline was advanced from 2024 to 2018. India is battling time, nature and geology to get there. The area is so remote, to deliver a bulldozer means dismantling it into nine parts and flying it for 200 miles, piece by piece, slung from a military helicopter.

Helo carrying bulldozer part
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 06 Apr 2017 10:11

Vivek K wrote:Mera bharat Mahaan!! It must rank as a first - patriotic Indians celebrating the failure of domestic efforts and hailing imports. In most other countries it is the exact opposite. Is it time for a East Russia Company to take over India?


Because you make this constant pitch for indigenous products and go around passing certificate of patriotism, you think you're more patriotic than any other poster on BRF? Actually, you're no better than Philip who annoyingly pushes for Russian products. Where the products are supposed to be an end in themselves rather than means to an end. Your behavior is like any other salesman - it's just that you couch your pitch under the garb of patriotism and use that fig-leaf to get away with you constant whines.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 06 Apr 2017 10:21

shiv wrote:I think there is no other go. Our entire Himalayan belt depends on helicopter supply and onanism about making hajaar LUH will still not make up the numbers we need. Some slack will have to be taken up by Ka 226 - after all the delays<SNIP>


IAF has two Mi-17 helicopter units based at Mohanbari (few km ahead of Dibrugarh) which are tasked primarily to support Air Maintenance (AM) in the NE sector. These choppers ferry stuff to all the Advanced Landing Grounds (ALG) as well para-drop supplies to forward posts where a chopper cannot land. A dedicated Army Supply Corps (ASC) unit is situated in proximity; it job is to prepare rations/supplies (including packing the parachutes for drop) for lift by IAF choppers. Load beyond the capacity of choppers is carried by An-32 detachment at Chabua AFB which is few kilometers ahead of Mohanbari. BTW, Mohanbari also has a small civilian airport. It is generally referred to as Dibrugarh Airport.

Smaller choppers Cheetah/Chetak are operated by Army Aviation Corps and are used more for liaison duties, R&O, casualty evacuation. As for the accessibility of posts, there are many posts which are 3-4 days of marching from nearest road-head (this info is from late 90s. Don't know how much situation has improved now). Most soldiers don't have the luxury of being dropped to their posts by choppers.

PS: deejay knows all about this sector, flying here and supporting troops.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neela » 06 Apr 2017 10:52

rohitvats wrote:Because you make this constant pitch for indigenous products and go around passing certificate of patriotism, you think you're more patriotic than any other poster on BRF? Actually, you're no better than Philip who annoyingly pushes for Russian products. Where the products are supposed to be an end in themselves rather than means to an end. Your behavior is like any other salesman - it's just that you couch your pitch under the garb of patriotism and use that fig-leaf to get away with you constant whines.


Sir, there is a point here. I too think its incredulous 200 helis are being ordered from Kamov. Allow me to make a case.

The first user variant of the main ALH platform entered service in 2002. Several variants of it have since spawned off. Its utility and worthiness to the defence forces is well proven & acknowledgement of it is seen in the orders. Production will continue into the early 2020s even with the current orders.
The defence forces have seen its development, provided feedbac, fully know how long it takes to develop it to suit their needs, know production rates and can tailor the induction based on it.

The LUH is , relatively speaking , is a simpler product. The experience with ALH platform should have already given the Army confidence in HAL to deliver. Why is it that they did not engage deeply with HAL around 2006-2008 time frame to get it going ? Surely , by that time, they knew Dhruv was good and LUH would be "easier" for HAL. Doesn't the question of indigenous product support arise here considering the above ?
Genuine question onlee. No malevolent intent here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 06 Apr 2017 13:33

Ka-226 seems like a import for sale of import.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 06 Apr 2017 14:16

Vivek K wrote:Mera bharat Mahaan!! It must rank as a first - patriotic Indians celebrating the failure of domestic efforts and hailing imports. In most other countries it is the exact opposite. Is it time for a East Russsia Company to take over India?


I see your awesome self qualifying response is just below mine so I respond.
You don't how know long I have been giving stick to everyone especially Phillip about imports.

As irritated as I get by Phillip paddling his Russian Warez, try and remember the op requirements of the Commanding Officer of an Infantry regiment who currently has 27 boys on Bana Top and the number of sorties they need cannot be provided for by Army Air OP from 2018 onwards due to decline in serviceability of the Air OP Squadron.
Last edited by Khalsa on 07 Apr 2017 01:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 06 Apr 2017 16:09

Neela wrote: Sir, there is a point here. I too think its incredulous 200 helis are being ordered from Kamov. Allow me to make a case. The first user variant of the main ALH platform entered service in 2002. Several variants of it have since spawned off. Its utility and worthiness to the defence forces is well proven & acknowledgement of it is seen in the orders. Production will continue into the early 2020s even with the current orders. The defence forces have seen its development, provided feedbac, fully know how long it takes to develop it to suit their needs, know production rates and can tailor the induction based on it.


Just one point - the production rate of Dhruv is no where optimum. HAL has been sitting on a large ALH order from word go but I doubt they've ever reached the proposed peak production capacity of 36 choppers. I had posted some numbers earlier and it seems they've only some time back hit the 24 choppers/annum rate.

The LUH is , relatively speaking , is a simpler product. The experience with ALH platform should have already given the Army confidence in HAL to deliver. Why is it that they did not engage deeply with HAL around 2006-2008 time frame to get it going ? Surely , by that time, they knew Dhruv was good and LUH would be "easier" for HAL. Doesn't the question of indigenous product support arise here considering the above ? Genuine question onlee. No malevolent intent here.


The LUH requirement predates the advent of ALH into Indian scene. The first set of tenders were floated in mid-2000s with attendant trials. This collapsed in 2007. Second set of tender and trials collapsed in 2013. When ALH entered service, LUH was clear and present requirement. IA or other Services could not have worked with HAL to conceive, prototype and then produce a LUH over a 7-8 year period.

You need to understand that there is something known an operational requirement. The decade of 80s was a golden era when all services saw massive induction of many modern types of weapons. We got quality as well as quantity. But then 1991 happened. And next 10 years were a black-hole in terms of modernization. The period between 2004-2014 could've been the period when armed forces recovered by way of removing obsolete systems, upgrading legacy equipment and inducting new ones. NDA-1 had laid the foundation for that between 1998-2004.

Requirements like MMRCA, LUH, T-90 import, new 155/52 caliber guns of different types, radars, AD missiles, EW equipment etc all fall into this category.

Here is an interesting data-point for you - all the successful DRDO projects fall into the category where Services had long lead time. Or, where the DRDO product was adding a hitherto unavailable category. Pinaka, ALH, Brahmos, various Radars, EW equipment etc are examples of this. The fact the Nag survives as a program even after so many iterations (yes, part blame with the IA) is because it does not fill any existing requirement and is not a replacement.

But the greed of UPA to milk defense contracts for worth every penny meant that most of the big ticket, and critical projects, got stuck in repeated RFP and RFI and trials. Clear and present requirements in mid-2000s became critical by mid of this decade.

My sincere request to you is whenever you at a purchase decision, from India or abroad, please do consider the urgency of requirement from Services perspective. Take this LUH category. While it is being sold in the media from Siachen perspective, Siachen forms only a small part of the requirement. But serving in this requirement requires special kind of main rotor blades - One fine day, the OEM which made these blades decided to shut-shop. HAL had been making Cheetah and Chetak helicopters for decades now. But they never bothered with making these special grade of blades. Here, read the full report to understand what issues this created:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/crisis-in-siachen-two-crashes-in-nine-months-army-troops-face-transport-crisis/

Now, my question is, why did not HAL bother to develop these blades and acted simply as go-between the Services and OEM?

Problems like this exacerbate an existing precarious situation. Had the decision to import 197 LUH come on time, IAF/IA would've by now a stable LUH fleet. And lives lost in accidents due to these old machines could've been prevented.

The above answers your part of why was LUH order not placed earlier. And unless I'm horribly wrong, HAL went ahead and made LUH on their own. And then pitched it as a competition to import. Question is - why didn't they do it earlier?

Coming especially to the Ka-226 and LUH issue:

I think there are multiple issues at play here. On the face of it, setting-up a production line for Ka-226 and first roll out will take anywhere between 36-48 months FROM the day all modalities are finalized between the JV and GOI. Unless, there is some existing capacity with HAL to make Ka-226 and roll it out earlier.

Given the above, it might seem counter-intuitive to go for Ka-226 when LUH should mature in another 24-36 month timeline. And then enter production at the new HAL plant near Bangalore. To the above certification time of LUH, you need to add about 12 months for first type to enter service.

However, part of the Ka-226 deal envisages first 60 to come from Russia and next 40 to be made from CKD in India. These initial imports and CKD units will help to address the immediate requirement for the three services.

As this report states, the production rate at HAL is woefully low to meet the order-book.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/ramp-up-copter-production-defence-ministry-tells-hal/349695.html

Part of that requirement will be met by imports as LUH enters production and reaches optimal level per annum.

But one thing I absolutely agree on - rather than going for JV with Russia for Ka-226, we should've simply imported a given number. Even if that number is 120-150. With LUH and Ka-226 being in the same category, they'll compete for export orders as well as domestic requirements. With HAL as a participating entity in both, it simply creates a fvked-up situation. Beyond initial order for 120-150 Ka-226, all the production should've been of LUH. Parallel production of Ka-226 and LUH makes no sense. It would make all the sense to invest in additional production line of LUH.

PS: Did you hear any noises against Ka-226 import by HAL? After all, it will compete against their own product. They did their best to limit Pilatus import to ensure their own product HTT-40 has more orders. Rather, they've positioned themselves to become the main Indian partner in this deal. After all. whether it is Ka-226 or LUH, HAL as an entity gets to make them both. And ensure that its order books and revenues, keep on humming.

It seems the heavy lifting part for domestic product needs to be done only by Services!
Last edited by rohitvats on 06 Apr 2017 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

Austin
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 06 Apr 2017 16:38

India's Hindustan Aeronautics offers performance guarantee for new helos
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, April 5, 2017 (Photo Credit: Manjunath Kiran/AFP via Getty Images)
NEW DELHI — In the first move of its kind, state enterprise Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has offered performance-based logistics, or PBL, support, under which the Indian company will ensure an integrated package of performance and logistics support for the homemade advanced light helicopter, Dhruv.

"PBL guarantee will ensure that the operational fleet availability improves from 60 percent to at least 75 percent," according to a senior HAL executive.

The PBL forms part of a $1.23 billion contract from March 30 for the sale of Dhruv helicopters. However, the PBL has been guaranteed only for the 16 helicopters reserved for the Indian Coast Guard and not for the remaining 16 helicopters set aside for the Indian Air Force.

"No foreign original equipment manufacturer has yet offered PBL to Indian defense forces since it [is] a very expensive proposition for them and the project cost would shoot up drastically if the volumes are low," a Ministry of Defence official said. "Moreover, a foreign [original equipment manufacturer] cannot be trusted to maintain war machines in times of conflict."


According to a HAL news release, the company chairman and managing director, T. Suvarna Raju, said: "The PBL is the purchase of Logistics support as an integrated, affordable, performance package designed to optimize system readiness and meet performance goals for the product through long-term support arrangements with clear lines of authority and responsibility."

PBL will increase the operational availability of the sensors and other equipment on board the Dhruv helicopters supplied to the Indian Coast Guard while retaining the existing technical parameters, according to an Indian Coast Guard official.

HAL has so far supplied more than 200 advanced light helicopters, or ALH, to Indian defense forces.

HAL is also discussing the possibility of exporting ALHs to Sir Lanka, and there have been inquiries from Vietnam and Myanmar for the helo.


However, the company's former executive director believes HAL shouldn't rush into an export deal.

"Currently there is need to sustain and improve ALH with further feedbacks in the next two to three years before we can go in for export," Murli Samarao said. "For export, there is a need to improve not only the helicopter but its ecosystem in terms of testers, ground handling and services equipment."

Last year, Ecuador terminated the contract with HAL for Dhruv helicopters after four of the total seven purchased helicopters in 2009 succumbed to accidents. That year, a report by India's autonomous auditing agency, Comptroller and Auditor General of India, noted that the ALH cannot fly above 5,000 meters, thereby defeating the very purpose of the project.

The ALH had been designed for the Indian Army and the Air Force by HAL to fly up to 20,000 feet, according to the report.


The MoD official, however, said the faults have since been rectified, adding that the Dhruv Mk III, with its improved Shakti engine, has resolved the two services' altitude requirement.

"Currently, most of the operational issues have been addressed including deployment of the ALH for glacier [in the Himalayas], which is a big success story in itself. Army is able to easily maintain its forces at glacier covering all aspects only because of ALH," Murli said. "All technical issues of engine have been addressed."


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 07 Apr 2017 02:30

Kakkaji wrote:Putin gives nod to joint venture for manufacturing Kamov helicopters

NEW DELHI: Russian President Vladimir Putin has finally given the go ahead for setting up an Indo-Russian joint venture for production of Kamov military helicopters for India under a $1 billion deal inked in 2015.


Meanwhile, they're talking to Iran as well about the Ka-226T or Ansat helicopter for local production in Iran.

Russian Helicopters discusses production in Iran

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rishi_Tri » 07 Apr 2017 03:27

Putin ji nods his head! Huh.

The junta (pun intended) who shall go there for Ka 226 training shall be elated (read as tax payer sponsored sojourn), as those who shall unscrupulously divert spares to Iran shall be rubbing their palms (pun intended) in delight etc.

But I have faith in our bureaucracy - there shall be delays through processes, procedures, negotiations, pricing, make in India / made in India / build in India / import for India / fly in India / future in India ... - and very soon it shall be 4-5 years (aka FGFA) and hopefully LUH shall still be standing oops flying.

To some points, India didn't make cryogenic engine, missiles because they were made available to it, because they were denied. Here we have a bug already flying!! Foreign forces take lead in conceptualizing, prototyping .. with their partners and not wait to be served on platter.

Anyway, time for Modi ji to nod back and this harmonic nodding of heads to continue with the bit players in unison and all adding up to a fantastic spectacle. Heads are happy but its the LUH that flies over Mechuka, Tuting ... and pricks the dragon crazy.

Austin
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 07 Apr 2017 23:37

Russia approves helicopter joint venture with India
Jon Grevatt, Bangkok - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

http://www.janes.com/article/69397/russ ... with-india

Speaking to Jane's in March, Viktor Kladov, Rostec's director for international co-operation and regional policy, confirmed that the JV to produce the Ka-226T in India was close to conclusion but also pointed to potential cost issues in establishing joint-investment defence companies.

"We are now finalising the terms of the JV to produce the Ka-226T," he said. "This will be a fly-by-wire helicopter made from composite materials, with the best engine and avionics. That's going to be a great helicopter and we are doing it in partnership with India."


Speaking generally, Kladov said JVs were not always an ideal structure for joint defence production programmes because they could increase costs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 08 Apr 2017 14:35

A joint venture to produce the Ka-226T makes no sense. Instead we should simply order about 60 nos. directly from Russia with an option of another 30. Even if the order were to be signed tomorrow, Russia would be able to start the deliveries not before 24 months and then maybe complete the order for 60 in another 24 months, if we really push hard for it. I don't think the current production line in Russia is geared towards producing 30+ helicopters per year.

In another 35 months LUH should enter production and that should take care of all future requirements. Saying that HAL production rate of LUH may not be enough to meet the services requirement and hence we ask HAL to set up another production line of a different helicopter to make up the numbers, makes zero sense.

I would instead like to see the S-70 order for the first 16 copters plus the option of additional 8 being signed immediately. We could used those 24 helicopter like day before yesterday.

if a joint venture is needed to helicopters, it is for the Naval medium heli requirement. We can form a joint venture with Russia for this. If we find the Ka-27/28 family to be obsolete, I'm sure the Russian will also be looking to replace them over the 5-10 years. Pefect time to set up a true joint venture to develop the next gen anti-sub medium heli for the navy.

Austin
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2017 14:45

I think most likely the Medium Heli Requirement would be shelved for some years , Most of the Western Choppers are very expensive in that category , The fact that IN has now accepted a ASW variant of Dhruv which it was not doing for all these years in the same number means they will go along with that design , Navy is upgrading the Sea King and Ka-28 to extend their lives for another 15 years or so. IN does not have the finance to fund all the programs it needs , it will have to do with what it can.


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