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Indian Military Helicopters

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2017 14:46

mody wrote:In another 35 months LUH should enter production and that should take care of all future requirements. Saying that HAL production rate of LUH may not be enough to meet the services requirement and hence we ask HAL to set up another production line of a different helicopter to make up the numbers, makes zero sense.

It is not about production rate in HAL. It is about supplying our troops in the Himalayas. We need new choppers ASAP. That has been delayed too long. Pilots are risking their lives in old choppers - we don't need to see men in the mountains dying because of lack of choppers. Even by your guesstimate the Ka-226 is going to arrive 12 months before LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 08 Apr 2017 14:54

yeah but the ka226 has only passed some cursory trials in the himalayas and its vaunted "plug n play" packs are a joke and probable failure like the sikorsky skycrane. it has not really passed the kind of sustained high alt beatings the LUH will do and Dhruv/LCH did to get into the tent.
I am viewing it as a marginal bailout deal to Kamov as a quid pro quo for gear that may never really work....remember the vaunted slam dunk of the AL55 engine for IJT?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 08 Apr 2017 15:01

^^ All the competing choppers from Eurocopter , Bell and Kamov has passed through those trial not once but twice or thrice , So unless they did a shoddy job with all the contenders in game it unlikely either have gone through cursory trials

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2017 15:43

Singha wrote:yeah but the ka226 has only passed some cursory trials in the himalayas and its vaunted "plug n play" packs are a joke and probable failure like the sikorsky skycrane. it has not really passed the kind of sustained high alt beatings the LUH will do and Dhruv/LCH did to get into the tent.
I am viewing it as a marginal bailout deal to Kamov as a quid pro quo for gear that may never really work....remember the vaunted slam dunk of the AL55 engine for IJT?

I can't dispute this but do you have any cites/references/articles. I generally don't miss stuff like this - but who knows?

The problem as I see it (in the absence of any information that the Ka 226 is a useless choice) is the usual series of arguments that come on BRF.
"Ka 226 is useless"
"But I don't see the IAF protesting and opposing it like IJT, HTT 40 and Combat Hawk"
"The IAF are import pasand"

So all questions are already answered and I am always suspicious of things that are too easy to understand.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 08 Apr 2017 21:03

Hakim ji, I cannot find any instance of IAF fighting against the induction/purchase of an imported weapon system. Perhaps you know of some?

The Marut and Dhruv are older Indian systems, LCA, LCH, LUH, HTT are current generation systems. History records the Marut experience. The Dhruv has had a favorable treatment.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 08 Apr 2017 21:27

Vivek K wrote:Hakim ji, I cannot find any instance of IAF fighting against the induction/purchase of an imported weapon system. Perhaps you know of some?

That may be a fact in itself. But that does not mean that the Ka 226 did not pass any tests.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 09 Apr 2017 12:33

Question how many rounds of tests or only one was enough :(( :(( :((

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 09 Apr 2017 12:43

#AR17: Deliveries of AH-64E Apaches to the Indian Air Force on order from Boeing are expected to commence in July 2019.

#AR17: Deliveries of all CH-47(I) Chinooks to the Indian Air Force on order from Boeing are expected to be completed by March 2020.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 9897439232

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 7081962496

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Neela » 09 Apr 2017 13:39

rohitvats wrote:The LUH requirement predates the advent of ALH into Indian scene. The first set of tenders were floated in mid-2000s with attendant trials. This collapsed in 2007. Second set of tender and trials collapsed in 2013. When ALH entered service, LUH was clear and present requirement. IA or other Services could not have worked with HAL to conceive, prototype and then produce a LUH over a 7-8 year period.


Rohit-Sir,
Its incredulous that you dont find the above...well...incredulous.
You are saying the 2007 trials failed even when there has been a pressing need for such helis years earlier. Any reasonable person at that juncture would start hedging their bets and find alternate procurement options. ALH rolled into service around 2006 timeframe. If that was accepted by the IA, it should have already asked for the lighter variant development imediately after light category trials failure. 6 years later, the IA's second set of trials failed and yet again. This is horrible horrible risk assessment. Also , when the second trials failed, those in charge of assesing options available in market should have been taken to task. Dont you agree? A decade of search and trials with nothing to show and no alternative POA in place!!!!

But the greed of UPA to milk defense contracts for worth every penny meant that most of the big ticket, and critical projects, got stuck in repeated RFP and RFI and trials. Clear and present requirements in mid-2000s became critical by mid of this decade.

Rohit Sir, with all due respect, again, if the IA and services did not factor UPA govt hurdles into account, what does that tell you about their planning for a product that was needed a decade earlier.

My sincere request to you is whenever you at a purchase decision, from India or abroad, please do consider the urgency of requirement from Services perspective. Take this LUH category. While it is being sold in the media from Siachen perspective, Siachen forms only a small part of the requirement. But serving in this requirement requires special kind of main rotor blades

- One fine day, the OEM which made these blades decided to shut-shop. HAL had been making Cheetah and Chetak helicopters for decades now. But they never bothered with making these special grade of blades. Here, read the full report to understand what issues this created:

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/crisis-in-siachen-two-crashes-in-nine-months-army-troops-face-transport-crisis/

Now, my question is, why did not HAL bother to develop these blades and acted simply as go-between the Services and OEM?

I find it strange that you decide to blame HAL for an OEM shutting shop though I do agree that HAL should ve keenly watched its supplier companies. But isn't this a risk with all forreign products ? And who is better aware of average flying hours / year and which components fail is real usage conditions ? The end user IA or HAL? IA knew or should have known the rotor blades need replacement. Shouldn't advance orders have been placed to keep the fleet flying knowing the replacement new product is not coming anytime soon.
The above answers your part of why was LUH order not placed earlier. And unless I'm horribly wrong, HAL went ahead and made LUH on their own. And then pitched it as a competition to import. Question is - why didn't they do it earlier?

Sir, I didnt expect this question from you. As mentioned in the previous post itself, you are asking why HAL did not develop the product earlier even when you know ALH was its first big indigenously developed product sale to IA.
If you are in the market to buy a simpler version of a already-bought product from a vendor , wouldnt you ask him to start working on the simpler version especially when you already like the first product? The services , after two trials , had nothing in hand after 2013 when it could have worked closely with HAL .
Doesn't it show poor risk forecasting on the part of services ?
But one thing I absolutely agree on - rather than going for JV with Russia for Ka-226, we should've simply imported a given number. Even if that number is 120-150. With LUH and Ka-226 being in the same category, they'll compete for export orders as well as domestic requirements. With HAL as a participating entity in both, it simply creates a fvked-up situation. Beyond initial order for 120-150 Ka-226, all the production should've been of LUH. Parallel production of Ka-226 and LUH makes no sense. It would make all the sense to invest in additional production line of LUH.

Fully agree here. But then again, some 15 years later, if the services have agreed to the Ka226 delivery timeframe, then they are really poor at communicating their needs on a priority induction from early 2000s.
( And I stress here that I am only talking specifically about the services's planning & comunication and nothing else)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 09 Apr 2017 17:34

HAL putting its own money to fund the development of LUH and HTT-40 has been a Great Leap Forward for the Indian aerospace. In the past being a public company, they would have had to wait for official commitment ( including funding) from the services and MoD. Now the lesson HAL has learnt is to be more proactive because they were never going to get the go ahead for products like HTT-40 or the LUH when the import options were preferred.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 10 Apr 2017 18:07

shiv wrote:
mody wrote:In another 35 months LUH should enter production and that should take care of all future requirements. Saying that HAL production rate of LUH may not be enough to meet the services requirement and hence we ask HAL to set up another production line of a different helicopter to make up the numbers, makes zero sense.

It is not about production rate in HAL. It is about supplying our troops in the Himalayas. We need new choppers ASAP. That has been delayed too long. Pilots are risking their lives in old choppers - we don't need to see men in the mountains dying because of lack of choppers. Even by your guesstimate the Ka-226 is going to arrive 12 months before LUH.


Doctorsahab, that's the reason I am saying sign the order for 60 Ka-226T with an option for another 30. If Russia can deliver 60 choppers within 4 years, that's the best case scenario that we are looking at right now anyways.
If in about 36 months, it seems that LUH is not about to enter full scale production, exercise the option and place order for another 30 Ka-226T.

What I am against is forming this fake joint venture for a screw driver project and handing an order for 200 Helicopters to Kamov. We will not gain any technology from this endeavor, plus the cost per heli will be higher and in all probability the production will take longer, as HAL will have to setup a special assembly line and then over the years try to indigenize some of the parts. This also for a quantity of 140 that HAL would to build would be useless exercise, as there are likely to be no further orders beyond the 140.

HAL's investment and all the additional costing for the desi-Ka-226T will come from the services budget and the tax payers pocket. All this while HAL will also be setting up an assembly line for LUH, which perhaps in future will also come with our own HTSE engine.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 10 Apr 2017 18:21

"ASAP" in Indian procurement of major foreign weapon system translates to a decade-plus ;) The whole light-helo saga has been going on for some 15-years and counting.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2017 01:14

HAL has issued an EOI for outsourcing the manufacture and assembly of the reduction gear module assembly. From this EOI the following can be deduced:

1. More than 280 ALH's have been delivered till date.
2. Approximately 221 more on order
3. There are 441 LCH's on order :eek:
4. Peak production rate (ALH+LCH): 100 helicopters per year.

This is the tentative requirement schedule:
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bheeshma » 02 May 2017 01:24

How many reduction gears per ALH? Since it has 2 engines may be the number of LCH is 200 odd? 400 + is a huge number of attack choppers even for unkil.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 02 May 2017 01:29

Whatever be the actual numbers, its a neat little example of how commonality helps OEM simplify procurement at their end.

Indranil wrote:HAL has issued an EOI for outsourcing the manufacture and assembly of the reduction gear module assembly. From this EOI the following can be deduced:

1. More than 280 ALH's have been delivered till date.
2. Approximately 221 more on order
3. There are 441 LCH's on order :eek:
4. Peak production rate (ALH+LCH): 100 helicopters per year.

This is the tentative requirement schedule:
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 02 May 2017 02:11

411 LCH? !!!
No wonder the IA does not want the Arjun.

Someone not too long ago mentioned that the IA probably wanted a tank that flies - here joo go!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2017 02:13

Bheeshma wrote:How many reduction gears per ALH? Since it has 2 engines may be the number of LCH is 200 odd? 400 + is a huge number of attack choppers even for unkil.

221 and 411 are not divisible by 2 :P

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby malushahi » 02 May 2017 02:25

dupe. mod can you please remove?
Last edited by malushahi on 02 May 2017 03:06, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby malushahi » 02 May 2017 03:02

dupe. mod can you please remove?
Last edited by malushahi on 02 May 2017 03:06, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby malushahi » 02 May 2017 03:03

doesn't shakti (and TM3332B2) have a modular/integral reduction gear module? can it not mean 221+411 such assemblies?

safran/easa
Output power is transmitted to a front-mounted reduction gearbox by a shaft concentrically mounted within the gas generator rotor assembly.


happy to be corrected.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 02 May 2017 06:42

Indranil wrote:HAL has issued an EOI for outsourcing the manufacture and assembly of the reduction gear module assembly. From this EOI the following can be deduced:

1. More than 280 ALH's have been delivered till date.
2. Approximately 221 more on order
3. There are 441 LCH's on order :eek:
4. Peak production rate (ALH+LCH): 100 helicopters per year.

This is the tentative requirement schedule:
Image


I guess that would be at least 2-engines per chopper (plus some spares). So the ALH and LCH numbers would be less than half of those engine order.

Current planned orders for LCH is 179 units (IAF - 65 and IA - 114). So 2 x 179 would be 358 engines required. 441 - 358 = 83 engines extra. That's around 2.5 engines per airframe.

If we apply that 2.5 engines per airframe to ALH, we would get 221 / 2.5 = 88 units.

Anyone know what the spare engine ratio would be per squadron/regiment? Given that airframe life is twice as long as an engine life, it is entirely plausible there would be quite a few extra engines ordered. That would take care of spares until the time when an engine upgrade may occur, such as part of a MLU (15 years later).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 02 May 2017 10:13

srai wrote:I guess that would be at least 2-engines per chopper (plus some spares). So the ALH and LCH numbers would be less than half of those engine order.

This EOI is not for engines. It is for the main part of the main gear box. There is only one per heli.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 02 May 2017 10:31

235 ALH have been delivered by Jan 2017 of approx. 200 to defence. the order stands for
IA= 40+105+40=185
IAF=22+54+45=121
IN=8+1+16=25
CG=4+16=20
TOTAL =351 nos OTHERS say 50 total=400 nos. Engine spare are 25% of required. Same may be with gear box also.
280+221=501 nos final expected order. Minimum is for 400 ALH may be more.
Same ratio for LCH. Then around 325 LCH IAF=65nos and say rest 260 nos for IA.

Number for IA is nearly same as the 259nos LUH requirement.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 02 May 2017 16:04

Indranil wrote:HAL has issued an EOI for outsourcing the manufacture and assembly of the reduction gear module assembly. From this EOI the following can be deduced:

1. More than 280 ALH's have been delivered till date.
2. Approximately 221 more on order
3. There are 441 LCH's on order :eek:
4. Peak production rate (ALH+LCH): 100 helicopters per year.

This is the tentative requirement schedule:
Image


LUH is not in the list. Does this mean it uses different reduction gear module ? OR it's just because it hasn't cleared all the trials ? (as they claim LUH should be ready for production by next year)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 02 May 2017 16:07

are you mapping 1:1 between shakti engine to airframes delivered? surely there would be a spare engine reserve at squadron level and attrition reserve at depot level so ration might be 1:0.75 ? depending on how long it takes to change a helicopter engine, the uptime could be kept high with spare engines....this is the usual tactic followed at wartime - more engines, extra ground crew and pilots.

also ALH/LCH being 2 engines, wouldnt 221/411 translate to 110/205 airframes ? - that would be more realistic plans

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 02 May 2017 16:08

Indranil wrote:
srai wrote:I guess that would be at least 2-engines per chopper (plus some spares). So the ALH and LCH numbers would be less than half of those engine order.

This EOI is not for engines. It is for the main part of the main gear box. There is only one per heli.

Hm.

First time hearing that many LCH on order/intent. 441? How was it kept quite? Usually these sort of large orders make the news. We will need to keep a look out for additional sources as a verification.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jamwal » 02 May 2017 17:23

411 is almost impossible for LCH. These must include spares.
Even the 22 machine figure in 2018-19 seems too ambitious.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 02 May 2017 17:31

2019 only for delivery of a measly 24 Apaches? Ye Gods! Kickstart LCH production and order a few doz. KA-50s.MI-28s as well.The IA needs ahuge boost to its attack helo fleet as time has run out with the perfidious Paki pigsh*ts and there barbarian army chief.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 02 May 2017 17:32

ALH Dhruv has two stage reduction, developed in-house. read the story here

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 03 May 2017 07:48

JTull wrote:ALH Dhruv has two stage reduction, developed in-house. read the story here

Awwww..foreign collaboration and ToT is so useful
During an informal interaction many years later with MBB’s then chief designer for ALH in India, he candidly indicated to this author that the ARIS in his opinion was not an easy concept to implement and should not have been used for a first-time project like the ALH. Here it would appear that there was an attempt by MBB to experiment with an uncertain high-risk design option on our project.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 03 May 2017 10:35

The DHRUV production at Bangalore at max produces 24 ALH/year and second line is coming up in Kanpur after which it can be expected that Bangalore line will start producing LCH and combined production is unlikely to exceed 48/year. It is not main gear box but reduction gear for each engine. Thus 110 ALH and 205nos LCH reduction gear sets can be expected including spares. This tallies with 179nos LCH likely order and 150 ALH more likely production run.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 03 May 2017 11:16

You are probably right here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 03 May 2017 11:51

shiv wrote:
JTull wrote:ALH Dhruv has two stage reduction, developed in-house. read the story here

Awwww..foreign collaboration and ToT is so useful
During an informal interaction many years later with MBB’s then chief designer for ALH in India, he candidly indicated to this author that the ARIS in his opinion was not an easy concept to implement and should not have been used for a first-time project like the ALH. Here it would appear that there was an attempt by MBB to experiment with an uncertain high-risk design option on our project.


Screw up that MBB did on ALH project and how HAL had to invest more time to clear the mess is well known I suppose. I am sure its discussed on BRF to dead already.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 23:08

Singha wrote:are you mapping 1:1 between shakti engine to airframes delivered? surely there would be a spare engine reserve at squadron level and attrition reserve at depot level so ration might be 1:0.75 ? depending on how long it takes to change a helicopter engine, the uptime could be kept high with spare engines....this is the usual tactic followed at wartime - more engines, extra ground crew and pilots.

also ALH/LCH being 2 engines, wouldnt 221/411 translate to 110/205 airframes ? - that would be more realistic plans



Are the engines Level I spares? Can they be exchanged at squadron level?
Or have to go to a base repair depot in which case they are Level 2 spares and if at HAL factory they are Level 3 spares.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 03 May 2017 23:10

sankum, The IA ALH helicopter can carry what kind of armament?

Its the Rudra version that has the armament.
Mark IV: This version is to have a French Nexter 20 mm turret gun, Belgian 70 mm rockets, and MBDA air-to-air and air-to-ground missiles, such as the anti-tank Helina missile.[11] All these systems have been tested individually.


27 have been delivered.
And 76 have been ordered and don't know the schedule.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 03 May 2017 23:32

MBB were incompetent morons compared to great experts in India who designed many successful flying machines like IJT, Hansa, Saras, Rustom-2 to name a few.
Last edited by ramana on 03 May 2017 23:44, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Unneeded rant. ramana

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 04 May 2017 07:12

Gyan wrote:MBB were incompetent morons compared to great experts in India who designed many successful flying machines like IJT, Hansa, Saras, Rustom-2 to name a few.

Happy to note that at least one person is gracious enough to acknowledge this. We need more Indians expressing such unalloyed pride and heartfelt praise. This is the kind of encouragement we need from young Indians to drive the nation forward. The old generation were always contemptuous of India and anything Indian.

I have a retired air commodore as a neighbour. Maybe 8 years ago I was speaking to him about something or other when he had a long rant about the useless ALH gearbox that would not work for the stipulated period of time if a bullethole drained out all the oil. This was about the time the problem had just been addressed - but we had no details - or at least I cannot recall reading the details. And those details have appeared in the file linked by jtull. I quote below
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2013/02 ... -hand.html
The project that was supposed to have progressed smoothly under the tutelage of advanced German technology, instead stumbled badly to almost a point of no-return and required extreme effort by our indigenous teams to recover, re-develop from basic design stages and optimise for production. Each of the contributory factors therefore needs deeper scrutiny for better clarity.
[..]
It would also appear that MBB had either over-estimated their capabilities or perhaps had even attempted to experiment the feasibility of some of these concepts at the cost of our project.
[..]
The project to develop the MGB (Main Gear Box) was sub-contracted by MBB to ZF (Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen), Germany
The first series of ALH MGBs were spectacular failures – these would not even last one hour of ground run on the Ground Test Vehicle (GTV). After every ground run, shed gear material would be found on the magnetic plugs indicating commencement of gear teeth failures. Initially ZF’s MGBs stubbornly refused to improve despite various efforts and this threatened to bring the whole project literally and figuratively to a grinding halt. After MBB (and ZF) left, it took our dedicated in-house transmission team many years of sweat and hard work, to recover the situation by going back to the drawing board, experiment with several remedial measures and introduce numerous modifications, so as to gradually bring the MGB to production standard. Obviously, this caused severe delays in the project.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 04 May 2017 08:35

So a helicopter only has MGB and no other component, hence MBB contribution was Nil. Indian R&D has a long tradition of considering help given by others or achievements of competing entities as useless and overstating their own contribution to the project. It started with Devil project, me thinks, in 60s, which also succeeded.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 04 May 2017 08:42

Gyan wrote:So a helicopter only has MGB and no other component, hence MBB contribution was Nil. Indian R&D has a long tradition of considering help given by others or achievements of competing entities as useless and overstating their own contribution to the project. It started with Devil project, me thinks, in 60s, which also succeeded.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 04 May 2017 09:48

Whether fixed wing or heli i believe every line squadron changes engines as its a must in wartime. How easy it is depends..the sea harrier needed half the plane to come off but must have done onboard viraat engine shop. Carriers also have engine test run bays.


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