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Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 04 May 2017 09:48

Anyone have details open src abput rudra sqdns and locations. 27 means 2 squadrons have it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 10:46

Also what weapons for the Rudra? Interested in knowing anti tank missiles.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 04 May 2017 11:07

ramana wrote:Also what weapons for the Rudra? Interested in knowing anti tank missiles.


The DAC recently put 124 ATGM procurement for RUDRA on fast track. Rudra has been tested for a very long time with NAG, the ATGM purchase is interim.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 04 May 2017 19:20

ramana wrote:Also what weapons for the Rudra? Interested in knowing anti tank missiles.


More or less similar to LCH loadout.
Image

We know HELINA has been tested on Rudra.
Image
Image

For "interim" purchase, there were talks about PARS-3 a few years ago. Haven't heard too much after that.
MBDA’s PARS 3 LR short listed for Indian Army procurement project
MBDA´s PARS 3 LR guided missile system has been short listed for the Indian Army helicopter future air-to-ground requirement. MBDA Deutschland has delivered proposals for its PARS 3 LR multi-target, long range weapon system for HAL’s Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH DHRUV) and for two attack helicopters, the KAMOV KA-52 and the MIL MI-28.

Within the framework of MBDA Deutschland’s export campaign for India, three PARS 3 LR firings were carried out from a German Tiger helicopter at the Vidsel test range in Sweden in April 2011. All three missiles were equipped with live warheads and all three struck their intended targets at the optimal hit points. Two firings were carried out within one minute of each other, the first against a static target at a range of 7,000 m and the second against a moving target at a range of 700 m. The third firing was carried out with the helicopter in fast forward flight against a static target at a range of 7,000 m.

Werner Kaltenegger, Managing Director of MBDA Deutschland, said: “I am delighted that the Indian Army has short listed PARS 3 LR for its procurement project. This represents a further confirmation of the close partnership MBDA has developed with India over the years. The successful industrial trials confirm the high level of reliability of the PARS 3 LR guided missile system. We are proud to offer the Indian Army such a powerful fire-and-forget system that can deploy precision attacks against a wide range of targets”.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 04 May 2017 22:08

So which AAM are those?
Also can they load 4 ASM on inboard pylons and rocket pods on outer pylons for a full strike configuration?
Above load out pictures show inboard and out board pylons with rocket pods.
The 4 ASM is shown only for Inboard pylons.
And id the IA buy these missiles or just evaluating?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby malushahi » 04 May 2017 23:35

ramana wrote:So which AAM are those?
...
And id the IA buy these missiles or just evaluating?

mistral. being integrated.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 05 May 2017 05:13

AAM is MBDA Mistral.

70mm Rocket system are from Thales FZ.

ALH (Advance Light Helicopter)
...
ALH armaments suite comprise four stub-wing mounted 12-tube FZ® rocket launchers FZ231 carrying in total 48 ea 70mm (2.75“) rockets.

70 mm rocket system

Versatile 70 mm unguided rocket system (change of rocket type without change of any fixed part on helicopter).

Rocket launcher :
max. 4 x 12-tube rocket launchers (FZ231)
Firing control system : BHIR for :
rocket inner pods elevation,
programming of time setting fuze for firing of rocket with subprojectile warheads (FZ122 or FZ149)
rocket types (mixed loading with different warheads)
Rockets :
FZ90 rocket motor with different warheads
Growth potential for laser guided rocket (FZ275 LGR)


They also have laser-guided 70mm rockets FZ275 LGR : Semi-Active Laser (SAL) Guided Rocket

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 05 May 2017 06:28

srai,

Those 70mm unguided rockets are like the second gen rockets?

http://fz.be/products.php?p=18

How effective are they against tanks?

I see they have an armor piercing warhead. Did India buy that.
Rest of the warheads are for soft armor <2mm protection.
My concern is what ASM they have acquired for anti-tank role?

Do the OFB mfg any rockets?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 05 May 2017 06:40

See my dilemma.
Rudra is 27 helicopters.
On the other hand ALH is many in IA hands.
So if I want to take out a Paki Army tank attack Ied anti-tank misisle that fit ALH?
How many have been procured?

i wont buy Arjun as Armor corps doesnt want them.
So am stuck with helicopetrs in anti tank role.
And I don't see why ALH inner pylons dont carry 4 ASMs and a rocket pod per side?
Rocket pods can take care of <2mm armor or thin skinned and ASMs can take on the tanks.
In mid 80s six MBB BO-15 with 6 Anti tank missiles wrecked havoc in a NATO exercise.
ALH is BO-105 ka baap.
But handicapped with lack of weaponry is my worry.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 05 May 2017 08:08

^^^

As far as weaponry on ALH - Rudra and LCH - goes, they have yet to order them in bulk (and with it ToT/license production deal). Right now, they are getting qualified and it seems bulk purchase are at least a couple of years away.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 05 May 2017 08:18

ALH can perhaps be rigged to carry 30 mm rockets from the rocket pods, which can be fired off a separate console, but anything else will need the targeting pod, electronics and wiring that the ALH doesn't have.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 05 May 2017 08:41

India Takes Aim at Domestic Weapons Sector, Starts with Helicopter Rockets
01.06.2016
...
In a bid to upgrade rocket weapon systems for its fleet of helicopters, India announced that it will break from its state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), which holds a monopoly on the country’s defense contracting needs, to procure munitions from private Indian manufacturers.

"Indian Air Force (IAF) wishes to buy 200,000 70mm rockets for its helicopters and the Ministry of Defense (MoD), under its new 'Made in India' policy, is now allowing private defense companies to meet the armament and weaponry requirements of the defense forces," said one Ministry of Defense official.

Historically, India has lacked a prominent private military-industrial complex, despite its enormous population, in excess of 1 billion, and its international stature in the technological sector. Instead, the three service branches of India’s military traditionally procured munitions from OFB or through imports from overseas.

The move represents the first step toward the country developing an indigenous defense contracting industry, expanding its capabilities to avoid reliance on major US military vendors including Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and Boeing.

"It’s a priority program under the 'Made in India' policy, we want home-made 70mm rockets within the next three years," said one Indian Air Force official.

Presently, none of the companies possess the capacity to build the sophisticated weapons on their own, but each is expected to partner closely with international defense companies including Raytheon, BAE Systems in UK, Saab in Sweden, Thales in France, and Rosoboronexport in Russia, among others.

"We are looking for modern rockets which are actually advanced precision kill weapon systems," stated Bhim Singh, a retired IAF wing commander.


FZ Rockets 70mm (2.75”) : FZ90
FZ90
FZ | Forges de Zeebrugge – Rockets 70mm (2.75”) : WA (WRAP AROUND) FZ90 star-shaped centre hole extruded double base (Smokeless, non-corrosive)
Features

Image

WA (Wrap Around)
Total impulse: 680daN.s
Range (ground-to-ground): ~9100m
Propellant grain: star-shaped centre hole extruded double base
Length: 1060 mm
Mass: 6.3kg
Warhead interface : 2.400 " -6-29° STUB ACME 3G, fully compatible with all the 2.75 inch rocket warheads
Smokeless, non-corrosive


The rocket motor being integrated with Rudra/LCH has a range greater than 9km. Compare this with IAF's Mi-17 Russian S5 and S8 rockets, which have a max range of 4km.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 05 May 2017 09:45

Good stuff. Why don't they get some one to partner with the Belgian company?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 05 May 2017 10:10

The tigre and havoc seem to field very large boxy rocket pods

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 05 May 2017 17:32

ramana wrote:...
I see they have an armor piercing warhead. Did India buy that.
...


REQUEST FOR INFORMATION FOR PROCUREMENT OF 70 MM ROCKETS FOR INDIAN AIR FORCE

Code: Select all

4.    Types  of  warhead:  High  Explosive  (HE),  Armour Piercing (AP, AP-T) & practice (Smoke & Flash)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 07 May 2017 16:19

Army looks to fast track process of acquiring anti-tank missiles for Rudra helicopter


The previous tender had to be scrapped in 2015 as the twin-tube solutions could not be found and having a four-tube launcher would have resulted in the boom touching the ground while landing as the Rudra is not a genuine attack machine," sources in the Army said

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 07 May 2017 17:26

^^^
If these foreign ATGM are inducted, then I don't think HELINA will be bought citing one reason or the other. They will want more of the foreign ATGM under the guise of MII. History will repeat itself here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prasad » 07 May 2017 23:37

What happened to the prospina then?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 08 May 2017 14:34

ramana wrote:<SNIP>In mid 80s six MBB BO-15 with 6 Anti tank missiles wrecked havoc in a NATO exercise.
ALH is BO-105 ka baap. But handicapped with lack of weaponry is my worry.


Rudra is BO-105P.

Secondly, pilots need to be trained for anti-tank roles - pilots doing utility roles cannot simply switch to AT roles w/o dedicated training and certain no of hours in the said role.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 08 May 2017 18:41

Seems masa has switching to composite rotor blades in a big way. Modified Apaches are being deployed in SoKo. Chinook has almost completed it's trials resulting in 1500 pound payload improvement. MH-60 is being reading. Futue tilt rotor is planned with these.

Time HAL explored this option to improve payload and speed of it's portfolio. Few tech tie-ups should be possible.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 09 May 2017 02:43

What do you think ALH and LUH blades are made of?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 09 May 2017 07:55

JTull wrote:Seems masa has switching to composite rotor blades in a big way. Modified Apaches are being deployed in SoKo. Chinook has almost completed it's trials resulting in 1500 pound payload improvement. MH-60 is being reading. Futue tilt rotor is planned with these.

Time HAL explored this option to improve payload and speed of it's portfolio. Few tech tie-ups should be possible.

Saar - ALH has had campajit rotar bilades from day 1

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 09 May 2017 11:15

That's great. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 09 May 2017 16:47

Noor Alam‏ @NeXoft007 3h3 hours ago
@DRDO_India Armor panel for HAL LCH passed trials, protection from 12.7mm Armor Piercing Shells. Impressive!
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 09 May 2017 18:46


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 09 May 2017 18:47

Great! A Q.Why can't we use over the (stub) wings of our attack helos AAMs as has been done on the Jags? It would give us more munitions carrying capability provided the engines can take the load. I am sure that the stub-wings can be designed for the extra weight.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby malushahi » 10 May 2017 04:00

did not see this posted.

Chinook base in Chandigarh

“A certain number of Chinooks will be based in Chandigarh,” a senior IAF officer said. “Two hangars and a maintenance bay along with associated technical and logistics facilities are to be set up here for the purpose,” he said.

Chandigarh is no stranger to the Chinook. Three of them belonging to the British Royal Air Force had been airlifted here from the United Kingdom for onward move to Nepal for flood relief operations in 2015. After being re-assembled and test-flown here, they spent a few days before being recalled home.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 10 May 2017 05:16

HAL is proposing a medium lift helicopter to replace the Mi-17 for Himalayan operations.

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/8 ... 4710929408

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 10 May 2017 07:21

Philip wrote:Great! A Q.Why can't we use over the (stub) wings of our attack helos AAMs as has been done on the Jags? It would give us more munitions carrying capability provided the engines can take the load. I am sure that the stub-wings can be designed for the extra weight.

Philip - the characteristic required of an overwing AAM is to "snap up" at an aerial threat that is flying above the plane carrying the overwing missile. "Snapping up" is a no no if there are huge whirling blades above the stub wings as one would find on a helo.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 10 May 2017 14:09

ramana wrote:HAL is proposing a medium lift helicopter to replace the Mi-17 for Himalayan operations.

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/8 ... 4710929408


Finally the HAL is displaying confidence required for such an undertaking. Let's hope that they receive required clearances quickly and we can see a flying machine in next 5 years.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 10 May 2017 14:35

Isnt that the imrh?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 10 May 2017 14:38

JTull wrote:
Noor Alam‏ @NeXoft007 3h3 hours ago
@DRDO_India Armor panel for HAL LCH passed trials, protection from 12.7mm Armor Piercing Shells. Impressive!
Image


Do they need to reveal photos? A person in the trade can make out a lot of things from photos of experiments.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 10 May 2017 20:18

Its not for the enemy but our won need assurance!
Three legged cheetah types.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 10 May 2017 20:56

ramana you have become cynical and scathing about the armed forces - both in the armoured vehicles thread and on this one. I think some of your comments have needless bile in them and as moderator you need to set an example. I will not point out again that you are a senior moderator only in the number of years you have held the title - let it not be assumed that there are ranks like senior and junior moderator. I object to the tone of the example you are setting. You must moderate yourself. No moderator or forum member must place himself above the fact that this forum has people from all walks of life including the armed forces and children of those who serve.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby dinesh_kimar » 10 May 2017 21:37

^ The medium Mi-17 replacement needs good gearbox tech to succeed.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sid » 11 May 2017 05:11

Singha wrote:
JTull wrote:


Do they need to reveal photos? A person in the trade can make out a lot of things from photos of experiments.


Following video shows Mi-28 armour being tested against 12mm fire with a pilot inside. Audacious, but a little PR always help.

such things are common.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 12 May 2017 18:50

Indranil wrote:HAL has issued an EOI for outsourcing the manufacture and assembly of the reduction gear module assembly. From this EOI the following can be deduced:

1. More than 280 ALH's have been delivered till date.
2. Approximately 221 more on order
3. There are 441 LCH's on order :eek:
4. Peak production rate (ALH+LCH): 100 helicopters per year.

This is the tentative requirement schedule:
Image


The tender says, "More than 280 Production Engine have been delivered to our customer and further are under production." Which doesn't make sense unless initial engines were imported from France.

Anyways,

This reduction gear assembly is to drive accessories and has nothing to do with the reduction from engine to Main rotor that some posters were referring to. This particular part is relatively small part of the entire MGB.

Now the MBG housing has two types of such gear boxes attached. One type is 2 in nos (1 per engine), another type has only one nos.

The second type (1nos) which they call accessories gear box is eliminated now in ALH Mark-4 and would be the same for LCH I suppose.

So its clear that these reduction boxes are the first type with 2nos per heli. This is also evident from this description from the tender.

1.2 Reduction Gear Module of Shakti Engine is the reduction gear box that drives the power
drive and various engine accessories. Shakti engine is currently used in the Advance
Light Helicopter (Dhruv). More than 280 productions Engine have been delivered to our
customer and further are under production.



The two-step reduction in MGB that someone was referring to is different thing altogether, and it is integrated in the MGB itself. That one sends power from the engines to the main rotor.

PS: The Mark-4 Dhruv/Rudra's finishing is awesome. Looks very TFTA. :mrgreen: LCH prototypes are also very nice but they are still prototypes. The actual production versions should be looking very nice.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 May 2017 14:48

Image


Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 May 2017 21:30

Some details of the IMRH from the following 3 HAL tenders.

RFI FOR TECHNICAL CONSULTANCY ON ROTOR SYSTEM FOR 10 TO 12 TON AUW CLASS INDIAN MULTI ROLE HELICOPTER (IMRH) PROGRAMME
RFI FOR SUPPLY OF SUITABLE TURBO SHAFT ENGINE FOR INDIAN MULTI ROLE HELICOPTER (IMRH) PROGRAMME
RFI FOR REVIEW OF TRANSMISSION SYSTEM OF INDIAN MULTI ROLE HELICOPTER (IMRH) PROGRAMME

1. 10-12.5 ton class
2. First military, then civilian (under FAR-29)
3. Two FADEC engines
Maximum continuous power rating
Image

Maximum Take off power (available for between 5 to 30 minutes)
Image
4. 5-blade main rotor, 4 blade tail rotor
5. TBO (engines): 2000 hrs. TBO (main rotors): 3000 hrs. TTL (main rotors): 6000 hrs.
6. Ceiling: 6.5 km
7. Blade folding capability for naval variant.
8. Selection of rotor type, hub plates, dampers are on going.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 15 May 2017 00:29

Deleted
Last edited by Gyan on 15 May 2017 00:56, edited 1 time in total.


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