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Indian Military Helicopters

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Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2017 02:37

^^^ I wish you knew what you were writing about.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 15 May 2017 07:30

Mi-17 and Mi-38 are comparatively underpowered to western helos like CH-148 or AW101 going by Wikipedia numbers. Hopefully work on a HTSE-2000 also starts soon.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 15 May 2017 09:34

JayS wrote:The tender says, "More than 280 Production Engine have been delivered to our customer and further are under production." Which doesn't make sense unless initial engines were imported from France.

That should equate to ~125 Dhruv Mk3s & Mk4s (2 engines each - 10% engines retained as spares).

"Approximately 300 TM 333 have been manufactured to date" and delivered off-the-shelf. Of those 30 were for the Cheetal/Chetan and the other 270 for the Dhruv. Thus the build order for the Mk1 & Mk2 should stand at around 125 units (2 engines each - 10% engines retained as spares).

Putting the entire Dhruv fleet at ~ 250 aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 15 May 2017 10:45

The MI-17s are the most versatile med. helo in the world.Even in Afghanistan,MI-17s and old MI-8s were in great demand by NATO.WE've ordered 40+and are modifying sev. for the VVIP sqd. If the engines were underpowered we wouldn't be doing that.

Nevertheless,the arrival,mock-up form at least of an desi med. role helo is long overdue. We should've started a parallel prog. after the ALH was developed a decade ago,or at least local production of MI-17s sine the no. acquired is so large,to be 200+..By now the med. helo would've been in production. Apart from IA/IAF reqs.,a naval multi-role helo to replace Sea Kings could've been in service by now. With the naval needs around 200+ req. as of yesterday, We will have to go in for a firang buy and by the time our MR helo is perfected and in production,the numbers required may be smallr than required as of now. Old MI-8/17s will by then need replacing,though one is sure that there will b sev. upgrade options since the helo is so widely used.A naval variant must be very quickly developed as we will need such an helo for the 4 amphibs as assault/commando helos etc.

Oh! A great opportunity.The UK has a number of special forces Chinooks that have never been used! These helos have been doing b*gger all and were equipped with some spl. eqpt. for Brit spl. forces. The helos are now being stripped of their spl. eqpt. Since we are looking for extra Chinooks,perhaps we could pick these up for a real steal. IAF/MOD,are you listening? This,in the context of us picking up used goods in good condition,like Malaysian MIG-29s,etc. Why not never ever used Chinooks?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 15 May 2017 14:31

Indranil wrote:^^^ I wish you knew what you were writing about.


Thx for your very informative post.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2017 20:53

My post is as informative as yours. At least, no information is better than wrong information.

For a change, you should probably think why they are asking for those numbers for a 12.5 Ton helo. They are not fools. They have designed and built very capable helicopters. What you are doing is extrapolating through wikipedia info! Dig a little deeper. It is not that difficult. And does such an engine exists? Seriously? These answers you can find in 5 minutes of Googling around. But no. You have to write a post first! Why should I take your posts seriously?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 15 May 2017 23:52

Again you have provided zero information except saying I am incorrect.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 16 May 2017 03:37

Carry on.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 17 May 2017 05:06

Ok. Back to topic.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 17 May 2017 14:33

HAL requirement is for 2000Kw engines. The only Engine that falls in this category is PW 127 used in Mi-38. The assumption could have been that the extra engine power is to provide for derating at 5000-6500m altitude where the engine power almost halves. But the transmission requirement is also for 2000kw engines. Therefore it seems to be pretty powerful helo, way more than Mi-17 and more in category of Mi-38/EH-101. Though Size wize it seems similar to Mi-17 although slightly narrower & taller. off course I am not working in HAL, and all this info is my estimate. Whenever I meet HAL Chairman next, I will try to get my post corrected or checked.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 18 May 2017 01:49

The specs seem really interesting. 4 years development cycle seems to be on the shorter side. The tenders seem like work is on, perhaps their preliminary design is done after consulting IAF/IA.

If they do get the P127TS, it will have a common engine with the C-295W. HAL can produce the engine in-house in India for both lines. It will be a cool 400-600 engine run (120-200 for C295 and 200-400 for IMRH).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 18 May 2017 17:52

Cybaru wrote:The specs seem really interesting. 4 years development cycle seems to be on the shorter side. The tenders seem like work is on, perhaps their preliminary design is done after consulting IAF/IA.

If they do get the P127TS, it will have a common engine with the C-295W. HAL can produce the engine in-house in India for both lines. It will be a cool 400-600 engine run (120-200 for C295 and 200-400 for IMRH).


Just wondering, is it so easy to use same family of engines on helios and fixed-wing aircraft?

And why not have the Tatas manufacture these instead of HAL, who have achieved f__k all about absorbing the SU-30MKI engine ToT for any practical use? Makes no difference if screwdriver ToT is all we want.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 May 2017 19:42

What makes you think Tatas will do better?

Most private enterprise is still crony capitalism based on access.

Only in IT and consumer products this has been broken.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 18 May 2017 21:01

The Tatas will probably do a better job than HAL any given day.
The sheer access they have to various of engineering, metallurgy, research labs and the workforce, might well result in a better finished product. If you allow some leeway in terms of improvement, with the oversight of DRDO, they can probably help bring about further refinements.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 18 May 2017 21:15

There are offerings in this engine category from GE, Klimov and PW. However, I feel that HAL might go with the RTM322 (or in-development HPE variants) from Safran.
JTull wrote:And why not have the Tatas manufacture these instead of HAL, who have achieved f__k all about absorbing the SU-30MKI engine ToT for any practical use? Makes no difference if screwdriver ToT is all we want.

Boss, if you want to criticize, do a good job of it. If HAL learnt nothing, where is HTSE 1200, transmission of LUH/IMRH coming from? With respect to aviation, TASL has not shown any design capability, or even intent. They are doing a stellar job of manufacturing to blue-print. Mahindra and Bharat forge have shown a lot of design-intent.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2017 00:18

JTull wrote:
Cybaru wrote:The specs seem really interesting. 4 years development cycle seems to be on the shorter side. The tenders seem like work is on, perhaps their preliminary design is done after consulting IAF/IA.

If they do get the P127TS, it will have a common engine with the C-295W. HAL can produce the engine in-house in India for both lines. It will be a cool 400-600 engine run (120-200 for C295 and 200-400 for IMRH).


Just wondering, is it so easy to use same family of engines on helios and fixed-wing aircraft?



I have no clue, but the following is from PW website.

"The PW100TS engine family, our 2,000 to 3,000 shaft horsepower derivative of the acclaimed PW100 family of regional airline turboprop engines further expands our product line to the heavy helicopter market. The PW127TS, our first entry to the market, has been selected to power the Helicopters of Russia Mi-38."

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 19 May 2017 01:01

I think 322 1/9A would be on the lower side as far as performance goes. They will need to tweak and rework it or make a new baseline engine for further growth. The engine being asked for will allow it excellent payload at extremely high altitudes. Perhaps @Deejay can run some calculations and share.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 19 May 2017 11:56

Mi-38 first prototype had PW Engine production variant will have TV7-117V engine

http://www.klimov.ru/en/production/helicopter/TV7-117V/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 19 May 2017 13:58

does not give a warm fuzzy feeling being the launch customer really for a new engine...the AL55 was also supposed to be a easy meat.

GE supplies the engine of blackhawk and apache. PW I think wants to break into this segment.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 19 May 2017 14:04

the winner of this is what we want. will have a production run of atleast 10,000 across blackhawks and apaches. 2200 kw/3000 shp

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... nt-428710/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 19 May 2017 16:56

Differnt class of chopper , A 12 T one like IMRH would have a different power requirement compared to 16 T class like Mi-38

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 19 May 2017 17:53

Indranil wrote:With respect to aviation, TASL has not shown any design capability, or even intent. They are doing a stellar job of manufacturing to blue-print. Mahindra and Bharat forge have shown a lot of design-intent.

With respect Indranil, I think you're approaching the other extreme of the argument. Its true that most of TASL's business has come from manufacturing to print, but that is an outcome of their circumstances. Within their constraints they've done as well as can be expected to absord technology and they have made a very concerted effort to indigenize manufacturing of subsystems even where they had no contractual obligations in the matter.

Fact is, TASL like its fellow pvt sector companies have a genuine business case for indigenizing defence production, while PSUs (incl. HAL) tend to function as govt depts rather than autonomous commercial entities - exemplified by their pathetic export record (despite its fundamental cost advantages).

Of course that doesn't mean that the core design competencies of organisations like HAL & DRDO built up over decades can be sidelined but the likes of TASL deserve to have the playing field leveled, and production contracts are an ideal beginning even if it is as a sister facility to HAL.

_________________________________________________

Personally, I find the Dhruv the biggest disappointment in the indigenization effort - HAL having successfully developed a world-class helicopter settled into its comfort zone (where going by comments here, a significant chunk of BRF also resides) with its dominant position in the domestic market. In the LUH's case, even the domestic market will be shared with a foreign competitor - Ka-226 (again with a section of BRF cheering it on). Whatever the company's weaknesses, I'm confident that if TASL were involved with the IMRH, they'd at least make a serious attempt to fight for the global market dominated by Mil, Sikorsky & AgWd.

That being said, on the engine front, perhaps Bharat Forge is a better bet. The industry as a whole lags the West by decades, being a fragmented mess doesn't help. Maybe a quadrilateral JV would work - Tata, Kalyani, HAL & GTRE (worked for CFM & IAE albeit at a much larger scale).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 19 May 2017 19:01

Indranil wrote:There are offerings in this engine category from GE, Klimov and PW. However, I feel that HAL might go with the RTM322 (or in-development HPE variants) from Safran.
JTull wrote:And why not have the Tatas manufacture these instead of HAL, who have achieved f__k all about absorbing the SU-30MKI engine ToT for any practical use? Makes no difference if screwdriver ToT is all we want.

Boss, if you want to criticize, do a good job of it. If HAL learnt nothing, where is HTSE 1200, transmission of LUH/IMRH coming from? With respect to aviation, TASL has not shown any design capability, or even intent. They are doing a stellar job of manufacturing to blue-print. Mahindra and Bharat forge have shown a lot of design-intent.


No offense, but we still don't have an engine of our own after nearly 2 decades of AL-31 engines being manufactured under ToT by HAL! Just as you cited, Private sector will certainly be more creative in how they absorb tech rather than just tick bureaucratic boxes. I'm not being partial to Tatas, but they will be more inclined given C-295 talks and 'if' there's commonality between the engines.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 19 May 2017 20:49

I am a big fan of TASL, and actually a not so big fan of HAL. None-the-less, I stand by what I said. TASL has not shown any design capability or intent till now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 20 May 2017 05:04

Singha wrote:does not give a warm fuzzy feeling being the launch customer really for a new engine...the AL55 was also supposed to be a easy meat.

GE supplies the engine of blackhawk and apache. PW I think wants to break into this segment.


Hmm, Mil ran PW engine on Mi-38 for three years. They also broke multiple records with it. I think the engine development is over and its qualified. Russ, wants to sell it with its own engine even its sub optimal. Atleast they know how to push their own agenda.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 20 May 2017 07:45

Army wants apaches now!!

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/army-wa ... 756733.cms

Imo they should fund heavy load version of lch with more powerful engine and 12 atgm nd get 100 for the price of 25 apache

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 20 May 2017 07:51

I do not know enough about aerodynamics to comment with authority here - but when it comes to operating beyond a certain altitude - say over 5 km high something tells me intuitively (yes tooth gap intuition, not knowledge) that increasing power of engines beyond a point gives diminishing returns. What I mean (put crudely) is that if you increase engine power by 2x you will not get a 2x increase in the height at which the helo operates or even a 2x increase in the load it can carry.

If someone knows better than this I would be happy to hear about it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jamwal » 20 May 2017 11:44


Austin
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 20 May 2017 18:09

Cybaru wrote:
Singha wrote:does not give a warm fuzzy feeling being the launch customer really for a new engine...the AL55 was also supposed to be a easy meat.

GE supplies the engine of blackhawk and apache. PW I think wants to break into this segment.


Hmm, Mil ran PW engine on Mi-38 for three years. They also broke multiple records with it. I think the engine development is over and its qualified. Russ, wants to sell it with its own engine even its sub optimal. Atleast they know how to push their own agenda.


The Rus engine are more powerful than P&W Engine ,good for hot and high operation
The more powerful TV7-117V compared has also allowed a further increase in the Mi-38’s maximum take-
off weight to 16,200kg (35,714lbs) vs 15,600(34,390lbs) for the PW127/TS-powered OP-1 and OP-2. This, in
turn, has made possible the maximum cargo weight transported in the cabin to be increased to 6,000kg (13,227lbs),
while on external sling it can carry up to 7,000kg (15,342lbs).

The third test vehicle, dubbed OP-3, was built to a configuration, said to be close to the production standard.
Powered by the Russian-made Klimov TV7—117V engines, OEI-rated at between 2,800 and 3,750shp and with a take-off rating of between 2,500 and 2,800shp

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 19:27

Indranil wrote:I am a big fan of TASL, and actually a not so big fan of HAL. None-the-less, I stand by what I said. TASL has not shown any design capability or intent till now.

Are they involved in the UAV program in any way? DRDO seems to be using their airfield

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 20 May 2017 22:15

Singha wrote:Army wants apaches now!!

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/army-wa ... 756733.cms

Imo they should fund heavy load version of lch with more powerful engine and 12 atgm nd get 100 for the price of 25 apache

The IA will never buy Indian weapons! Refer to the Arjun saga for the army preferences.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 21 May 2017 13:29

I think recently there was a news story on how TATAs were fined Rs 270 crores for indigenising certain components of Radar rather than importing them.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 21 May 2017 15:34

Singha wrote:Army wants apaches now!!

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/army-wa ... 756733.cms

Imo they should fund heavy load version of lch with more powerful engine and 12 atgm nd get 100 for the price of 25 apache


As per the article, Army intends to equip all its 14 corps with attack helis. Since only 11 Apaches can be bought as per repeat order option, rest will have to be equipped with only other option available-LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 21 May 2017 15:43

Gyan wrote:I think recently there was a news story on how TATAs were fined Rs 270 crores for indigenising certain components of Radar rather than importing them.

What “Make in India”? MoD penalises Tata Power (SED) for using indigenous parts

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 21 May 2017 17:24

HTFE 25 engine can be the basis of 2000kw- 2500kw turboprop and turboshaft engine. These are comparatively low hanging fruits compared to Kaveri series.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 21 May 2017 23:48

Viv S wrote:
Gyan wrote:I think recently there was a news story on how TATAs were fined Rs 270 crores for indigenising certain components of Radar rather than importing them.

What “Make in India”? MoD penalises Tata Power (SED) for using indigenous parts

I think we should learn to make a difference between indeginizing and designing. TASL has indeginized the manufacturing of huge aerostructures. They can't design them though.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 00:02

Tata ASL has been a DRDO partner for Missile C&C though. TATA defence capabilities are sort of in a tussle between TATA SED which if memory serves, comes under Tata Power and the Tata ASL which was core owned by the TATA controlling group, and is not listed either. To be honest, I never understood the need for TATA ASL when TATA SED could have been built up, but I suspect it had to do with the fact that TATA SED was a core DRDO partner & foreign JVs for build to print were easier with ASL, but then again, TATA ASL is DRDO's go to partner for BMD C3I and MRSAM C3I.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 22 May 2017 00:14

It is not uncommon in US for industries that deal with Aerospace & Defence to have separate facilities for ITAR & Non-ITAR work. One of the reasons could be similar to the above i.e. greater involvement of TATA SED with Indian armed forces could be the reason for going after a separate entity altogether.

Looks like KaranM has posted something along similar lines.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2017 00:18

yes, but then TASL is working with DRDO on BMD and MRSAM. Confoosing onlee...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 23 May 2017 08:28

Kamov choppers prove costlier under Make in India

During negotiations with the Russian side, it has come out that the cost of the 140 choppers to be built in India would be around 2.5 times the cost of the first 60 helicopters. There are certain issues over this in the acquisition wing," Defence sources told MAIL TODAY.

Sources said there seemed to be a minor issue over the interpretation of the clauses on the transfer of technology for the Kamov choppers as during one of the meetings, the Russians proposed to supply the 140 choppers to built in India as complete knocked-down and semi-knocked down kits -which would mean that the choppers would only be assembled and not built in India.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/kamov-226- ... 60527.html


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