Indian Military Helicopters

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 16 Mar 2017 02:31

Oh god
hope all are okay.
Not a good day for the IAF today.

Hope the boys from the Sukhoi and the village are recovering well.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Mar 2017 09:50

Here we go again...

India-Russia spar over pricing and transfer of tech in Kamov copters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 80686.html

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 23 Mar 2017 11:33

Great. More orders for luh.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 23 Mar 2017 14:56

Rakesh wrote:Here we go again...

India-Russia spar over pricing and transfer of tech in Kamov copters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 80686.html

What do you reckon admiral ?
We shooting ourselves in the foot or Russians not letting go of something or just playing tough.

Either way ... I am not sure I am so sad.
Its definitely going to cause a dent in our capabilities but .... should lead to increased Dhruv Orders and further speed up for LUH.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Mar 2017 15:25

Rakesh wrote:Here we go again...

India-Russia spar over pricing and transfer of tech in Kamov copters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 80686.html

Cancel the deal and buy the luh. Domestic rules.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 23 Mar 2017 15:59

Pratyush wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Here we go again...

India-Russia spar over pricing and transfer of tech in Kamov copters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 80686.html

Cancel the deal and buy the luh. Domestic rules.

Keep negotiating the deal till the LUH is in service and available for mass production.Two can play at the dirty game that the Russians seem to prefer.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 23 Mar 2017 16:23

India should move away from Russian crap and Russian double dealing, keep negotiating and buy nothing. With all of pewtin bravado Russia today is becoming a turd wurd country. Educated Russians are leaving the land for US, UK, Canada.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 23 Mar 2017 17:06

This is a system we can let go of.. if we want numbers fast, let's ask Reliance industries (the preferred partner for Ka226 program) to set up another production line to speed up the numbers inducted into services.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Mar 2017 18:17

Does the LCH have a wet hardpoint? Can it carry a fuel tank and increase its ferry range?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 23 Mar 2017 18:51

Rakesh wrote:Here we go again...

India-Russia spar over pricing and transfer of tech in Kamov copters
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 80686.html

Although I am totally against Ka 226 purchase, but this article seems like a plant by either our own or other manufacturer. Couple of points from article.

1) Russian prefers HAL while MOD looking for a private partner.
2) Cost negotiations, which is a normal thing during such phase. Point one may be one of the reasons why it is escalating as their profit margins will be hit.

Again a normal process but news is twisted to evoke Russian bashing sentiments.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Mar 2017 18:58

It isn't a great idea to take one single MSM news item and imagine that it is the whole truth.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Mar 2017 21:04

Gagan wrote:Does the LCH have a wet hardpoint? Can it carry a fuel tank and increase its ferry range?

I believe the mi17 external fuel tanks just use external pipe..so i think can lch for ferry if a pipe be designed

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Mar 2017 21:22

Khalsa wrote:What do you reckon admiral ?
We shooting ourselves in the foot or Russians not letting go of something or just playing tough.

Either way ... I am not sure I am so sad.
Its definitely going to cause a dent in our capabilities but .... should lead to increased Dhruv Orders and further speed up for LUH.

I would prefer the LUH any day over the Ka-226. I meant that comment in relation to our archaic way of negotiating and dealing. Our Babus are a piece of work indeed. I wonder how these folks - with their rules and regs - live in their personal lives.

Just imagine how anal they must make simple purchases i.e. buying underwear. RFI to vendors, then RFP from vendors, then trials, then downselect, then cost negotiations and finally pull out the credit card (for EMI payments) to purchase them. Penalties for late deliveries, poor performance all written in the contract.

Bart S wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Cancel the deal and buy the luh. Domestic rules.
Keep negotiating the deal till the LUH is in service and available for mass production.
Two can play at the dirty game that the Russians seem to prefer.

Well said both of you. +100.

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 23 Mar 2017 23:25

Rakesh wrote:
Just imagine how anal they must make simple purchases i.e. buying underwear....

Yes we (Indians) have a certain style when it comes to purchasing something... For example

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 24 Mar 2017 00:24

Gagan wrote:Does the LCH have a wet hardpoint? Can it carry a fuel tank and increase its ferry range?

I don't think so.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 24 Mar 2017 00:24

shiv wrote:It isn't a great idea to take one single MSM news item and imagine that it is the whole truth.

What is MSM stand for Shiv ?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Mar 2017 00:26

Main Stream Media

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 24 Mar 2017 00:28

Khalsa wrote:
Gagan wrote:Does the LCH have a wet hardpoint? Can it carry a fuel tank and increase its ferry range?
I don't think so.

I am surprised that the IAF didn't ask for this

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 24 Mar 2017 00:38

Gagan wrote:
Khalsa wrote: I don't think so.
I am surprised that the IAF didn't ask for this

I think LUH has been (slightly) independent in evolution and design than Dhruv and this is a good thing.
The Mil must not be primary sponsor.
Perhaps it was even an orphan at sometime hence translation of requirements (if existed).

However from an Army's perspective, the LUH units like Siachen Pioneers are based within spitting distance of operational areas.
Having observed their work at close range I can tell you, LUH at the Northern Front Areas will be required to prove their mettle in the area of
- maintenance
- all weather capabilities
- hauling heavy stuff in rarified atmosphere
- excellent nav capabilities at night
- durability
- spare parts availability

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Mar 2017 05:06

Don't quote me on this, but I read somewhere that with external tanks the LCH's range went up from 550 km to 750 kms.

I don't think that they have the requirement now. But if they need, they can get those stations plumbed and qualify Kiran's/IJT's 226 ltr drop tanks on the LCH.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Mar 2017 08:39

I would imagine that external tanks on a helo would be mainly for ferry range and not for combat. On the one hand helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire because of their low speed and proximity to ground forces and jingos ask of how well the pilots are protected. A drop tank in such a situation would be a paradox. That aside - much of our future action for helos will be high up in the Himalayas at heights where there will always be a toss up between fuel weight and payload

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2017 08:50

but on Dhruv it can help to extend range and endurance in high burn hot and high situations. I think even composites can be used to save on weight and increase fuel fraction.

not sure what the mission is here? khan always has a planB

turkey aus japan use these external drop tanks on MH60

seems to be basic external pipes connected to internal fuel system. the fuel system will need to have a mode and sensors to detect fuel levels in all such tanks and draw fuel in a balanced way to keep the ship stable....so its not just dip a straw in the milk

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 24 Mar 2017 09:28

Inspite of extensive deployment of DIRCM on helicopters, transport aircraft etc, worldwide, we seem to be laggards on the issue with no indication of its development or deployment.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 24 Mar 2017 10:14

shiv wrote:I would imagine that external tanks on a helo would be mainly for ferry range and not for combat. On the one hand helicopters are vulnerable to ground fire because of their low speed and proximity to ground forces and jingos ask of how well the pilots are protected. A drop tank in such a situation would be a paradox. That aside - much of our future action for helos will be high up in the Himalayas at heights where there will always be a toss up between fuel weight and payload

External tanks for missions which are expected to come under ground fire is a bad idea alright. I once visited one AF base where there was a transport heli Unit stationed. It had external tank for operations which do not expect much ground fire. And for light firing such as in COIN ops, they have a kind of protective clothlike stuff pasted on the botton and sides of the tank. Its suppose to be self sealing but it doesnt work properly in field as per the heli Unit incharge. It did look more for placebo effect that for actual bullet damage control.

But it would be great to have option of external tanks on all helis, not so much for war but for peacetime. Majority of airframe usage hapoens in the peacetime and if we can conserve as much life as possible in peacetime we could have better availability in wartime.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 24 Mar 2017 10:27

Time to evolve LCH into various configuration, something like the Eurocopter Tiger. Some of these configurations may make the chopper a bit heavier than present form but add more value for operations in plains.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2017 10:56

that longbow apache looks huge with the tall mast and the fat side cheeks that got added after the basic ah64a saw service in ods. the engine are completely outrigger from the looks of it, and internal fuel space would increase. the wild boarish cheeks house fuel tanks and avionics per a video iirc

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Mar 2017 11:01

huge cutaway of the wild boar cheeks - seems like avionics racks , then a gap for the landing gear strut , then more avionics and then empty taper. #142 is a interesting ground eqpt storage bay for FARPs I think...just below fat part of tail. engines are completely outrigger.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/or ... dfc089.jpg

gives an idea of the complexity of a attack heli.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Mar 2017 12:54

All those helo images with tanks are for ferry flights. Tanks instead of weapons.

AFAIK Apaches will not fly to the heights that LCH is expected to go

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Mar 2017 13:00

rohitvats wrote:Time to evolve LCH into various configuration, something like the Eurocopter Tiger. Some of these configurations may make the chopper a bit heavier than present form but add more value for operations in plains.

+1 to that. The learning from it will be very useful if and when a MCH is designed by HAL.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 24 Mar 2017 14:56

As Shiv said, tanks are purely for ferry missions. Unlike US aircraft, Indian attack helos aren't shuttling around great distances. And even for ferry missions, between airports & cantonments, there is absolutely no shortage of refueling points in India (unlike the sparsely populated US). Its not really worth the effort to plumb the LCH's wings.

It would make more sense to focus on strengthening the wings for heavier stores and perhaps putting in a wingtip hardpoint for an air-to-air weapon thus freeing up the other two for air-to-ground munitions.

Something like this -

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 27 Mar 2017 01:53

Delhi Defence Review‏ @delhidefence Mar 25
More
IA and IAF's future recce and observational role helo #LUH #aeroindia2017 #aeroindia

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Mar 2017 02:27

What if the LCH has to deploy to the Maldives or Mauritius hain ji?
Will the military, take off the rotor blades, load it onto a Gajraj or a Prithviraj, unload, and then again re-attach the rotor blades, all under fire? Or load them on the vikramaditya and wait till the ship gets there a day later?

What if they have to deploy in Afghanistan in a jiffy, and Iran gives an air corridor?

With external tanks, the birds can just fly there. Strike weapons can be quickly put on in a field helipad by ground crew, who can deploy there via Mi-17s etc.

Increasing ferry range with external tanks is something that can be very useful

Eric Leiderman · Post by **Eric Leiderman** » 27 Mar 2017 03:20

Following up on a thread of thought that has been aired here

It might be better to get the platform in service as required for our defence forces (I think the accronym is ASR .)We initially need to face the many challenges that are present in our immediate sphere of influence, the platform is ours to modify as we seem fit. I agree with u that this would be the icing on the cake, however let us have the cake first, eat it and decide what type of icing is required.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 27 Mar 2017 04:32

Gagan wrote:What if the LCH has to deploy to the Maldives or Mauritius hain ji?
Will the military, take off the rotor blades, load it onto a Gajraj or a Prithviraj, unload, and then again re-attach the rotor blades, all under fire? Or load them on the vikramaditya and wait till the ship gets there a day later?

Yes that's exactly what you do. Load it up on a ship and spend a day in transit. In the interim, your advance team on the ground sets up a base; fuel, ordnance, logistics, admin, security & carries out intelligence assessments. Its not as simple as just whistling for them today and expect them to go strafing tomorrow. Mi-17s for example will not be shuttling fuel for the heptrs. And even if all that was not a concern and for some reason marine transports weren't available - the IAF will still have three squadrons of AH-64s at hand.

Increasing ferry range with external tanks is something that can be very useful

Not very useful, its only in rather obscure circumstances that it gets used (near instantaneous expeditionary deployment in the immediate neighborhood).

That said, if the wings can take the sizeable weight of EFTs and if the piping for fuel can be accommodated in the wings without any compromises on structural strength or mechanical/maintenance complexity, and if doesn't cost too much in development.. sure why not.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Mar 2017 13:21

Media report today about new plans to export Dhruv/ALHs to SL,Vietnam,Indonesia,Burma,etc.The Ecuador coup was a disaster with 3 crashing,two due to human error,one technical.Ec then decided to scrap the lot We didn't come out of it unscathed and should've supported the deal better,being our very first that too all the way in S.Am. Now that hundreds have been delivered for our armed forces,there should be no slip-up.However,we must fundamentally remember that we cannot take a foreign customer for granted in the manner that we do to the Indian armed forces! There must be an attitude change in HAL and its export cell. Vietnam is an excellent opportunity for us to export Dhruvs,LCHs,warships and missiles of diff types. If we manage this successfully,it will have a cascading effect in the ASEAN nations.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2017 05:39

Russia to sign deal with India on delivery of 48 Mi-17V-5 helicopters in 2017
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/2017 ... licopters/

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 28 Mar 2017 08:11

32 more Dhruv ordered.

http://m.indiatoday.in/story/narendra-m ... 14372.html

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Mar 2017 09:57

LUH should be a helo that should be aggressively marketed, and should do well in the region and in africa.
In africa, HAL should think about setting up a maintenence depot somewhere down the line in a neutral country for servicing future HAL products, or give it to a pvt company

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Mar 2017 10:04

Viv S
I understand that everyone has gotten used to not having foreign deployments, and thinking that sudden overseas deployments are obscure.
Things are changing both in india and inthe neighbourhood and even in the region. There military conflicts going on in so many places.

India will not be an ahinsavadi nation for ever, nor will india remain a poor developing country. As a superpower, the military will turn expeditionary very soon.
Large ferry range is a very useful capability to have.

Now that it is discussed here, someone in IAF will include that for a future upgrade or in the next gen of the birds

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2017 10:27

suppose we need to deploy in a peace enforcement mission to the coast of africa or the ruins of syria. good ferry range and loiter times are must have as our bases will be 1 or 2 and operating areas huge. the incremental effort of installing wet pylons and plumbing and certifying it is not much. for recce role it might be ok to have external tanks..esp at night.

the syrians have been flying convoys of Mi17 (top cover by russians) from qamishli to deir azzor at low level, using NVG to bring in men and weapons and fly out wounded. only 1 sortie has been described, but they go on in secret. on such a covert mission too, gunships escorting the CSAR component will need extra fuel. and even in typical CSAR, having a long range is a boon.