Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 25 Apr 2018 02:15

Are the specs exact as the shakti? Or is it more aggressive? The details on specs seem scanty at the moment on the web. is 1200 kW continuous or only peak?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 25 Apr 2018 02:30

Cybaru wrote:Are the specs exact as the shakti? Or is it more aggressive? The specs seem scanty at the moment on the web. is 1200 kW continuous or only peak?

Does the 1200 stand for 1200kW or shp? I believe it is 1200 shp. That would make the power equivalent to the Shakti engine used in the Dhruv. LUH uses a derated version IIRC.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 25 Apr 2018 03:04

nachiket wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Are the specs exact as the shakti? Or is it more aggressive? The specs seem scanty at the moment on the web. is 1200 kW continuous or only peak?

Does the 1200 stand for 1200kW or shp? I believe it is 1200 shp. That would make the power equivalent to the Shakti engine used in the Dhruv. LUH uses a derated version IIRC.


Couple of news reports say 1200 kW and see that blurb copy pasted in several news articles. If it is 1200 kW continous then they could quite easily do a dhruv++ (7-8 tons) when this is ready.

https://www.newskarnataka.com/bangalore/hal-revs-up-aero-engine-for-trainer-helicopters

The turboshaft engine develops 1200 kW (kilowatt) power at sea level and can operate up to 7km altitude," HAL said in a statement here on the occasion.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 25 Apr 2018 08:15

JayS wrote:
tsarkar wrote:And why would helicopters inducted a few years earlier with engine TBO 3000-6000 hours need overhaul before 2020?

http://www.deagel.com/Propulsion-System ... 26001.aspx


You mentioned LUH & LCH - will their engines need overhaul the day they enter service or some years down the line?


TBO numbers for ALH engines are way lower than that as of now.

Is it 1800 hrs or is it lesser???

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 25 Apr 2018 10:02

Deejay Sir, JayS is privy to information which is not public. Perhaps, you should both take it to private channels.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 25 Apr 2018 10:22

Indranil wrote:Deejay Sir, JayS is privy to information which is not public. Perhaps, you should both take it to private channels.

Stop siring me or I will start siring you. That is the politest threat I have ever given. Howz that!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 25 Apr 2018 11:53

Indranil wrote:Deejay Sir, JayS is privy to information which is not public. Perhaps, you should both take it to private channels.


Don't worry, that's done already. :D I was not going to put up any info here which is not in public domain already, to my knowledge.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 25 Apr 2018 17:17

JayS, is there a public source of how many ALH engines are being overhauled at the OEM every year? I couldn't find the data point in HAL annual report.

tsarkar, you are probably right on Dhruv being past any threat of sanctions. But HAL should have planned engine MRO facilities at the same time as signing initial purchase agreement, or atleast when it got a good idea about future numbers of Dhruv being ordered. My fear is that it was looking at it purely commercially and not strategically. Probably the cost associated with engines sent to OEM for overhaul had crossed a certain threshold that it found it viable to setup a local MRO facility. Long lead times for agreeing to a JV, finding suitable location, construction, machinery imports, etc, meant this is about a decade later than it should have been.

Similar thing has happened with Su-30MKI where HAL is waking up 20 years after the first airframe came, to setup a local warehousing of spares. Till now they ordered piecemeal after a part failed (or went past its certified life).

Whether you call it a threat of sanctions or anything else, the delays have meant low serviceability rates for many aircraft types. This govt (starting with Manohar Parrikar) has spent a lot of time in optimising the use of airframes we have rather than just the need to have more airframes. (I believe Gagan Shakti 2018 was as much about validating this high availability than anything else).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 25 Apr 2018 18:20

JTull wrote:JayS, is there a public source of how many ALH engines are being overhauled at the OEM every year? I couldn't find the data point in HAL annual report.

tsarkar, you are probably right on Dhruv being past any threat of sanctions. But HAL should have planned engine MRO facilities at the same time as signing initial purchase agreement, or atleast when it got a good idea about future numbers of Dhruv being ordered. My fear is that it was looking at it purely commercially and not strategically. Probably the cost associated with engines sent to OEM for overhaul had crossed a certain threshold that it found it viable to setup a local MRO facility. Long lead times for agreeing to a JV, finding suitable location, construction, machinery imports, etc, meant this is about a decade later than it should have been.

Similar thing has happened with Su-30MKI where HAL is waking up 20 years after the first airframe came, to setup a local warehousing of spares. Till now they ordered piecemeal after a part failed (or went past its certified life).

Whether you call it a threat of sanctions or anything else, the delays have meant low serviceability rates for many aircraft types. This govt (starting with Manohar Parrikar) has spent a lot of time in optimising the use of airframes we have rather than just the need to have more airframes. (I believe Gagan Shakti 2018 was as much about validating this high availability than anything else).


1. I have not seen such data so far, but that doesn't meant it doesn't exist.

2. HAL-Safran JV for MRO of these engines has been started some time ago in Goa. MP inaugurated it during last Def Expo may be. There must have been some engines which went to France for overhaul, how many I don't know, but quite a bit of years have passed since Dhruv is inducted and definitely some engines must have needed overhaul. At the same time it looks like they planned MRO facility in India when its gonna need in good scale. From now on there will be steady stream of engines up for overhauling for decades to come. The number of engines need to be enough to make a good business case for such facility too. Looks like the turning point was at around 2015-16. The facility was opened duely. Sometimes its just matter of decision at MoD level. For example HAL has capability of overhaul of M53 engines even with such low number of engines. Perhaps due to the strategic importance of the jets, MoD decided to acquire it, while for Dhruv it was not envisaged in starting. Of coarse this is my reading between the line so take it FWIW.

3. You are unnecessarily bringing in the Su-30MKI spares matter here. It was IAF which rejected HAL's offer of PBL. HAL cannot be blamed alone. Its not HAL which orders piecemeal, but its IAF. IAF owns the aircrafts and give orders, not HAL. IAf's utilization has been lower than expected, so the need for overhaul was much less than expected. It has taken 3000+ Cr to set up spares' store in Nashik, thats quite a significant amount of money for HAL. HAL board cannot even take a decision to act on it even if they want to as this is beyond their autonomy. MoD has to pitch in. And when it did, things got sorted out. A lot has been discussed on this in Su30 thread.

4. As far as engine MRO is concerned, the ball in in Safran's court. HAL has limited authority over the engine. Safran dictates things, it seems.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 26 Apr 2018 00:22

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:Deejay Sir, JayS is privy to information which is not public. Perhaps, you should both take it to private channels.

Stop siring me or I will start siring you. That is the politest threat I have ever given. Howz that!!!

Got it. I think you had warned me earlier too. Will adhere.

The respect is automatic: the stripes you wore ...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 01 May 2018 02:17

DefExpo 2018

LUH, ALH, LCH and Rudra


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kersi » 02 May 2018 16:07

Would this MRO also service the civil Dhruv, as and when it enters civilian market ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 17:50

Jordan has started receiving new MI-262T heavy helos.These brand new versions of the world's largest type, have just 2 crew instead of 4 and more powerful engines, etc.They can rescue even a downed Chinook.We supposedly operate 3 from our erstwhile fleet and there was some talk of upgrades.It would be better to exchange them for new ones with the OEM as these helos are particularly used in lifting heavy eqpt. in the mountains for border road construction apart from mitary loads with a hold as large as an AN-12.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 02 May 2018 21:27

Philip, Don't mind lekin, but is that news item germane to this thread?

Its not. Please post in International Aviation thread.

Lets try to keep the focus in our threads.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 02 May 2018 23:00

HAL was to build a 4th prototype of the LCH to speed up and finish the testing and trials.
Do they actually have a 4th LCH?

I think the 15 LSP on order are probably being delayed due to new desi software being Incorporated.

Can't wait for the LCH to enter serial production.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 02 May 2018 23:21

The point is that we are supposed to be upgrading the remaining 3 legacy helos in service.You see the lot on the tarmac at a certain base in the north also used by civvy flights.The new more capable versions would be a better option to acquire than prolonging the life of the legacy 3 .Same argument as with the legacy SU-30s. The Jordanian note was to show that the newer versions are in production being exported.We desperately require heavy helos capable of lifting the heavy construction eqpt. in the mountains, non-availability being a key reason why our border infrastructure along the Chinese front is only "25%" complete officially.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 03 May 2018 07:33

mody wrote:HAL was to build a 4th prototype of the LCH to speed up and finish the testing and trials.
Do they actually have a 4th LCH?

I think the 15 LSP on order are probably being delayed due to new desi software being Incorporated.

Can't wait for the LCH to enter serial production.

I thought they had the 4th prototypes for over 2yrs now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 03 May 2018 11:08

Philip wrote:The point is that we are supposed to be upgrading the remaining 3 legacy helos in service.

Philip wrote:We supposedly operate 3 from our erstwhile fleet and there was some talk of upgrades.It would be better to exchange them for new ones with the OEM


The upgrade was delayed due to -
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/e ... 2015-12-12
"The Russians are demanding too much money. It is very difficult to justify," is all a top source would reveal when asked the reason behind the delay in finalising the contract.


What is your view, Philip, on why Russia is extorting a true friend like India, that paid Boris Yeltsin advance for Su-30MKI even before specs were drafted to save Russian economy?

The deal was signed in November https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-a ... rs-1770006

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 03 May 2018 11:32

Mi-26 is getting refurbished per latest news

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 30370.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 03 May 2018 11:36

mody wrote:HAL was to build a 4th prototype of the LCH to speed up and finish the testing and trials.
Do they actually have a 4th LCH?

...


Yes, now I can share the links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Light_Combat_Helicopter

On 1 December 2015, LCH TD4 completed its first flight.




https://www.financialexpress.com/photos/business-gallery/826266/hal-lch-light-combat-helicopter-status-news-make-in-india-indian-army-iaf/

The LCH has been undergoing extensive trials in various technology demonstrator versions - TD-1, TD-2, TD-3 and TD-4. One special feature of the LCH is that it would allow Indian Army and IAF to have light combat power in all-weather conditions. The LCH has "narrow fuselage and tandem configuration for pilot and co-pilot weapon system operator".

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 03 May 2018 14:01

I repeat,taking a holistic view of our strategy against China,building up our patchy infrastructure on the LAC is the highest priority for the GOI.But only 25% officially has been completed due to lack of heavy eqpt. for road/bridge/infra building. These can only be lifted to the desired locations by heavy helos.We urgently require MI-26s,either legacy ,even on lease, or better still new built ones with only a crew of two,much improved than the 4-crew legacy helos.If the Jordanians can afford them why not the IAF? It will speed up construction of our border roads,etc. given its heavy lift capability and huge hold,able to carry large eqpt. Upgrades also do take time,as there first has to be dis-assembly of the bird,then testing the parts for structural fatigue ,repairs and replacement of components,new components,a new cockpit,etc.,Much easier to simply buy new ones with a longer lifespan. We could've asked for a "new helos for old " deal at bucket prices.

LCH dev. seems top be going fine.It should be a game-changer for the IA if we can build it at record speed,at east 3-4 a month.It would have great export potential too given it a much lower cost than rival western birds.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sid » 03 May 2018 18:05

Philip wrote:I repeat,taking a holistic view of our strategy against China,building up our patchy infrastructure on the LAC is the highest priority for the GOI.But only 25% officially has been completed due to lack of heavy eqpt. for road/bridge/infra building. These can only be lifted to the desired locations by heavy helos.We urgently require MI-26s,either legacy ,even on lease, or better still new built ones with only a crew of two,much improved than the 4-crew legacy helos.If the Jordanians can afford them why not the IAF? It will speed up construction of our border roads,etc. given its heavy lift capability and huge hold,able to carry large eqpt. Upgrades also do take time,as there first has to be dis-assembly of the bird,then testing the parts for structural fatigue ,repairs and replacement of components,new components,a new cockpit,etc.,Much easier to simply buy new ones with a longer lifespan. We could've asked for a "new helos for old " deal at bucket prices.

LCH dev. seems top be going fine.It should be a game-changer for the IA if we can build it at record speed,at east 3-4 a month.It would have great export potential too given it a much lower cost than rival western birds.


If you were pitching to MoD then probably they could buy this Russian hardware. But on BR its useless, and OT in most of the cases.

Maybe you can create a new thread dedicated to pitching Russian maal?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 03 May 2018 18:24

deejay wrote:
mody wrote:HAL was to build a 4th prototype of the LCH to speed up and finish the testing and trials.
Do they actually have a 4th LCH?

I think the 15 LSP on order are probably being delayed due to new desi software being Incorporated.

Can't wait for the LCH to enter serial production.

I thought they had the 4th prototypes for over 2yrs now.


Thanks Deejay. I remember seeing the flight video of TD-4.
Seeing 3 TDs flying at the DefExpo fly past, had me confused.
A noob puch...why are the main rotor blades of the LUH, rotating at a much slower speed then the rest of the helos?
All are 4 blade rotors?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 03 May 2018 19:01

how much testing for LCH is left to arrive at IOC config?

they will need to freeze the IOC config and order long lead items in bulk and prepare the supply and manufacturing chain. I would expect a period of 18 -24 months from order confirmed and money paid to the first few SP LCH being handed over.

i hope people do not hold it hostage to tall targets for its weapons and sensors which can always be swapped in and changed later.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 03 May 2018 19:11

Take a break Sid. Understand the issue in proper perspective.This is not lobbying for any OEM.The MI-26T is unique as the world's largest heavylift helo in production.Our entire border infra with China is only 25% complete for reasons as explained, and China is massively upgrading its infra at key locations on the border where we are severely disadvantaged.We have only 3 legacy birds which need upgrading.This number is inadequate for the logistic needs and the 3 aren't based in the east either.No new smaller Chinooks too have arrived from the US, which are meant more for troop transportation purposes. Heavy eqpt. can only be airlifted by helo and even though we have a large number of MI-17Vs , they have payload limitations.Our LW 155mm BAe howitzer and desi LW arty (future) will also have to be airlifted to these inhospitable terrain, not by road.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 03 May 2018 22:14

How many times do these three birds fly per year? The decision has been made for the future heavy lifts in India: the Chinooks. For the real heavy lifts which require the Mi-26, we can lease them just like we lease the An-124s.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 03 May 2018 23:18

Lift Capability of the Mi-26 means nothing, if the serviceability is poor. All three birds are lying grounded, I believe. What IR said above is correct.

Exclusive: IAF raises alarm, 100 hours before India loses its sole heavy lift copter
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/e ... 2015-12-12

^^^ 2015 article. Pls read first and then read the article below, dated 2017.

India And Russia to sign contract for the overhaul of Mi-26 choppers
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-a ... rs-1770006

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 03 May 2018 23:32

Rakesh wrote:Lift Capability of the Mi-26 means nothing, if the serviceability is poor. All three birds are lying grounded, I believe. What IR said above is correct.

Exclusive: IAF raises alarm, 100 hours before India loses its sole heavy lift copter
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/e ... 2015-12-12

^^^ 2015 article. Pls read first and then read the article below, dated 2017.

India And Russia to sign contract for the overhaul of Mi-26 choppers
https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/india-a ... rs-1770006




The Mi-26 is the world's largest load-lifting helicopter

New Delhi: India and Russia are set to sign a contract soon for the overhaul of three Mi-26 helicopters for the Indian Air Force, with Moscow also offering long-term maintenance service for IAF's Mi-17 choppers, a Russian official has said.

Russian Helicopters, a part of Rostec State Corporation, is negotiating the financial and technical details of the contract for these overhauls with the Indian side, the official said.


In October, Russian Helicopters completed the repairs of five Mi-17 helicopters and will deliver these to India in the near future for flight tests and repair acceptance.

According to a contract with Rosoboronexport, 30 units of Mi-17 helicopters will be repaired by mid-2018. The repairs will be done in six stages -- five units for each.

The Russians have also offered overhaul service for two Mi-35 helicopters, repair and modernisation of five Ka-31 choppers operated by the Indian Navy, as well as offered to India a long-term agreement for repair and maintenance of the Mi-17 helicopters.....

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prem » 07 May 2018 07:26

https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... 2653259778
Ouch. An Indian Army Rudra armed copter had a hard landing near Jodhpur on Friday. Brown out impact. (Photos via @rahulsinghx)
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 07 May 2018 09:01

Could have been worse.. glad it isn't. Whew.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 07 May 2018 09:04

It looks as though the landing gear sunk in sand when the chopper landed.

Any news of the crew.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2018 09:10

They should be fine. Thankfully, this doesn’t look serious. Looks like they sank in sand, till the fuselage sand reached the bottom of the fuselage.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 07 May 2018 13:46

That is an extremely satisfying photo on so many levels.

Tells is about the the cool and calm and the ice water in the veins that runs in an air warrior (army or airforce) to bring down a failing chopper and crash land without a single crack in the windscreen.

Training also validated
Equipment robustness validated.
Equipment crash survivability validated.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 07 May 2018 19:24

Brownout is a serious condition with no mitigating remedy and the impact was hard. The rear photo in the twitter photo shows the left skid broken. However the airframe is robust, given that the pilots survived and even the windshield isn't cracked. Hope the electronics are OK from the crash - the EO sight and MAWS etc are the most expensive stuff on the aircraft.

One of the things pilots/crew/passengers need to do is to stay calm and not get out until the rotors stop moving. The co-pilot from the Coast Guard helicopter crash at Nandgaon crash survived the impact but exited the helicopter and got hit by the still moving rotors.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 07 May 2018 21:08

Khalsa wrote:Tells is about the the cool and calm and the ice water in the veins that runs in an air warrior (army or airforce) to bring down a failing chopper and crash land without a single crack in the windscreen.

Brownout is a sign of a working helicopter.
Khalsa wrote:Training also validated
Equipment robustness validated.
Equipment crash survivability validated.

Absolutely.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 07 May 2018 22:27

Singha wrote:how much testing for LCH is left to arrive at IOC config?

they will need to freeze the IOC config and order long lead items in bulk and prepare the supply and manufacturing chain. I would expect a period of 18 -24 months from order confirmed and money paid to the first few SP LCH being handed over.

i hope people do not hold it hostage to tall targets for its weapons and sensors which can always be swapped in and changed later.


As per unconfirmed sources, LCH got IOC around 2 yrs back. It should also be in news.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Sid » 08 May 2018 00:09

Prem wrote:https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/993148982653259778
Ouch. An Indian Army Rudra armed copter had a hard landing near Jodhpur on Friday. Brown out impact. (Photos via @rahulsinghx)
Image


I think they were extremely lucky. That "pole", and rocket pod actually saved it from rolling on it side. That could have resulted in main, and tail rotor damage.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 08 May 2018 12:55

Yep,like mo-bike crashbars!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 11 May 2018 04:38

India expands Dhruv cockpit upgrade

Israel Aerospace Industries' Lahav division has received a follow-on contract to continue an avionics upgrade on the Indian armed forces' Hindustan Aeronautics Dhruv advanced light helicopters.

An initial award covered work on 50 of the twin-engined rotorcraft, with the latest deal concerning a further 150 examples. Work is already under way.

Benjamin Cohen, vice-president and general manager of the Lahav division, says the follow-on contract includes Dhruvs that are used for both land-based and maritime missions.

Cohen says modification kits are produced in Israel, before being shipped to India. "The upgrade kits are made according to the mission of the helicopter," he notes.

Elements of the enhancement package include installing a full glass cockpit with a moving map display. These features are part of an integrated architecture display system, which Lahav says is aimed at optimising the operational performance of the helicopter and its pilots.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 11 May 2018 04:53

WTH! Why consider a version of the Ka-226T for a naval requirement and ignore the ALH, which could theoretically also be fixed to fulfill naval utility roles far better.

Navalized Ka-226T could boost Indo-Russian deal

Russian Helicopters has confirmed that the Indian Navy is considering a navalized version of the Kamov Ka-226T. The service is seeking a Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) for search-and-rescue, humanitarian relief, coastal patrol, monitoring, and counterterror operations. India has already agreed to acquire 200 Ka-226Ts to meet the Air Force and Army’s Reconnaissance and Surveillance Helicopter (RSH) requirement.

The Ka-226T was not originally listed by the Navy as a competitor for the LUH, but Chief of Naval staff Admiral Sunil Lamba confirmed the change of mind. India “would save much money due to our joint project on local assembly of the type,” Sergei Chemezov, head of Rostec, commented in January. He explained that the Navy would benefit from a common program for training of flight and ground crews.

Rostec is the parent organization of Russian Helicopters and the Rosoboronexport arms sales agency. The latter two are minority shareholders in Indo-Russian Helicopters Limited (IRHL), which was established in May 2017 to produce the Ka-226T in Tumakuru, near Bangalore. Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is the majority (55 percent) shareholder.

An Indian MoD delegation last month inspected the Kamov design house and the Russian Helicopters factory at Ulan-Ude. This is where the first 60 Ka-226Ts for India will be produced before licensed production of another 140 is undertaken at Tumakuru. The Indian and Russian heads of state signed the 200-helicopter deal in December 2015.

Russian Helicopters general manager Andrei Boginsky said he hopes for expansion of the license project following shipments of six navalized Ka-226TMs to Russia’s Federal Security Service (local acronym FSB). They have foldable blades for compact storage in a ship hangar; special marine avionics; night vision and other mission equipment; and a mount for a 7.62-mm machine gun.

Kamov first proposed a navalized Ka-226 back in 2005, but initially, the FSB looked at European models to equip its coastal patrol corvettes. Following the chill in East-West relations, the service placed the contract for the six Ka-226TMs in November 2015. The last pair of these was delivered last month. “The Ka-226T has proved its merits in the tough conditions of the sea,” claimed Boginsky.

The Ka-226 features a flying chassis design complete with detachable cabin modules seating up to six passengers or carrying mission equipment. First flown in 1997 and operational since 2002, the type did not meet customers’ expectations until 2011, when the Ka-226T version was introduced with more powerful Turbomeca Arrius 2G1 engines. Of the 70 delivered to date, 40 have gone to the Russian Air and Space Force (VKS), twenty to other Russian government agencies, and the remainder to various civilian organizations.


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