Indian Military Helicopters

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 11 May 2018 07:56

About the Rudra incident:
https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... 0657862657
My sources say dust kicked up, brown out conditions. And while carrying out sit down, extra pressure came on one skid.


If you brighten that dark image of the helo from the back you can see that the left skid has sunk into soft earth.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 11 May 2018 10:59

India expands Dhruv cockpit upgrade

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-448215/

.
.
An initial award covered work on 50 of the twin-engined rotorcraft, with the latest deal concerning a further 150 examples. Work is already under way.

...the follow-on contract includes Dhruvs that are used for both land-based and maritime missions.

Cohen says modification kits are produced in Israel, before being shipped to India.

Elements of the enhancement package include installing a full glass cockpit with a moving map display. These features are part of an integrated architecture display system, which Lahav says is aimed at optimising the operational performance of the helicopter and its pilots.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 11 May 2018 15:22

Why couldn't this have been done in India? Our LCA cockpit is supposed to be desi, why not the Dhruv? We've also modified Jags, MKIs, etc. with Indian avionics one would imagine that this was a desi given.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 11 May 2018 16:16

shiv wrote:If you brighten that dark image of the helo from the back you can see that the left skid has sunk into soft earth.


That's good to hear.. i mean that the skid didn't shear/break. Robust build quality.. no doubt the soft sand helped majorly (while perhaps creating the problem in the first place). Most of all the sheer skill of the Pilot in getting it down as smoothly as possible.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sahay » 11 May 2018 23:24

JayS wrote:India expands Dhruv cockpit upgrade

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... de-448215/


The older order is probably for Mk. 1s being converted to Mk. 2 standard. What is the subsequent order for? According to Wikipedia, only 56 Mk. 1 were produced. The rest (Mk. 2 and Mk. 3) were built with a glass cockpit and moving map display.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 12 May 2018 01:57

shiv wrote:If you brighten that dark image of the helo from the back you can see that the left skid has sunk into soft earth.


Image
The left skid is broken and resting next to the rear MAWS. But it'll be a minor repair.

Major concern is whether electronics like Compass EO is affected by the impact.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 12 May 2018 21:39

tsarkar wrote:The left skid is broken and resting next to the rear MAWS.

True. Just noticed that

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 13 May 2018 03:43

tsarkar wrote:The left skid is broken and resting next to the rear MAWS. But it'll be a minor repair.

Major concern is whether electronics like Compass EO is affected by the impact.

Should be fine. The impact doesn't seem to have been too hard. There is absolutely no buckling visible on the airframe other than the skid.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Lalmohan » 13 May 2018 19:48

^^^ true, but until they have x-rayed the structure they won't know if there are other problems internally (main structural components)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 13 May 2018 23:07

Indranil wrote:
tsarkar wrote:The left skid is broken and resting next to the rear MAWS. But it'll be a minor repair.

Major concern is whether electronics like Compass EO is affected by the impact.

Should be fine. The impact doesn't seem to have been too hard. There is absolutely no buckling visible on the airframe other than the skid.

In cases of accidental or suicidal fall from a height (of humans) when they fall feet down - fractures of the heel, ankle and legs reduce the possibility of spine fracture and paralysis because the energy is serially dissipated by breaking less critical bones. Similar to crumple zones in cars. So the fracture of the skid may actually be a design feature.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 13 May 2018 23:08

Yes, they would test everything before putting it back in the air.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 19 May 2018 08:55

HAL keen to supply Navy with light utility helicopters.

Putting its hat in the ring for a naval requirement of light utility helicopters, state-owned aircraft manufacturer Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has asked the defence ministry to consider its indigenous chopper as well, against just looking at international companies like Airbus and Bell for replacements.

Sources have told ET that the state-owned company has informed the defence ministry about the progress in its light utility helicopter (LUH) programme that undertook its first first flight in September 2016 and is planned for production starting this year.

Making a pitch for considering a naval variant of this helicopter for the requirement of 111Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH), the company has written that rS 400 crore has already been invested into the programme and it can be used by the navy instead of relying on imports.

The NUH programme is a key priority for the Navy that wants to retire its ageing Chetak fleet and is short of rotary wing aircraft for warships at sea. The NUH programme for 111 choppers is currently being pursued under the strategic partnership (SP) programme that involved selecting a foreign developed chopper to be made in India with the private industry.

At least three companies are in the fray for this order — the European Airbus, American Bell and Russian Kamov. While formal tenders are yet to be floated, a request for information has yielded replies from the companies and consultations are currently on within the defence ministry to take forward the process. Indian companies that are keen to make the chopper under the SP model include Mahindra (which had an MoU with Airbus), Tata and the Kalyani Group

It is yet to be seen whether the HAL pitch will make it eligible to qualify for the tendering process once the defence ministry manages to sort out how to proceed with the SP model. The HAL developed chopper which is currently undergoing trials is a 3.1 tonne aircraft that is designed to replace the ageing Cheetah and Chetak fleet.

The program has been in the works since 2008 when the armed forces projected a requirement for a light chopper that could carry troops and supplies to all border areas. The chopper if powered by a Shakti engine in collaboration with French firm Turbomeca. A new production facility is to be built for the LUH project.

HAL is also working on a project with Russian Helicopters to build 200 of the KA 226 light choppers in India as part of a government to government deal. A tender for the KA 226 order was issued earlier this month.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 19 May 2018 09:41

What are the crashworthy features of ALH that we often read about ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 22 May 2018 10:09

Naval LUH. I have a few ideas about the KA-226 which could even be used on the HAL LUH.

For the helo to be really worthwhile on our smaller platforms, they must have a minimum of ASW capability.
Earlier helos used to fly out to a specified location based upon data from the warship and drop their DCs or LW torpedoes.

The KA-226 can carry 6 pax in its cabin module.Ample space for an ASW console and ASW weapons operator to monitor sonobuoys dropped and release weaponry.Now sonobuoys are dropped vertically from canisters which can be accommodated within the cabin.So too can the MBU rounds aboard our principal warships.They won't need the boosters at all, simply dropped to detonate at pre-determined depths by the weapons operator.A few rounds can easily be carried at the rear of the cabin module which could be modified for the above purposes.

In addition 2 LW torpedoes can also be carried on either side of the cabin externally.The no. of sonobuoys and MBU DC rounds can be determined taking into acct. the load factor.It could be possible to have 6-8 MBU rounds and 2 torpedoes as well.The same idea can be used on our larger helos as well.They could carry ASW torpedoes as well as these modified and lighter MBU DC rounds along with the required no. of sonobuoys.

It usually requires 3 data inputs to determine the location of a sub.Once the warship has sent the helo to prosecute it, the s'buoys dropped in patterns will zero in on the target.The sub can then be attacked by using these mini-DC rounds which have the same warhead as those fired from warships along with the LW fish.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 22 May 2018 13:07


Well done HAL. Especially since none of the international contenders are naval helicopters.

Austin wrote:What are the crashworthy features of ALH that we often read about ?


From Dhruv certification by CEMILAC

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfo ... /apr10.pdf

Helicopter should be able to withstand the loads arising due to crash conditions of 35 g forward, 12 g rearward, 25 g
downward, 8 g upward, and 12 g sideward.


The fuel tanks should have self-sealing characteristics and should have crash-resistant features.


Paging JayS and Indranil to save this link on Dhruv Certification.

Philip wrote:Naval LUH. I have a few ideas about the KA-226 which could even be used on the HAL LUH.

Sir, what you wrote encompasses the complete process of converting a normal helicopter to a naval one!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 22 May 2018 19:17

tsarkar wrote:
Helicopter should be able to withstand the loads arising due to crash conditions of 35 g forward, 12 g rearward, 25 g
downward, 8 g upward, and 12 g sideward.

If the entire helicopter is designed for the above inertial load factors, ALH would be a flying tank. If I could extrapolate my understanding of regulations for commercial designs, usually such high strength needs to be shown only for interior items i.e. any items which will carry occupants & the restraint systems and also any items which could end being a projectile during emergency landing conditions and thus pose a danger for occupant and preclude their chance of escaping. For practical purposes, most interior monuments inside commercial aircraft/chopper are shown compliance to inertial factors much lower than stated above (per prescribed factors in FAR/EASA regulations).

It is quite possible that many structures inside the ALH cabin including seat belts, seat attachments and possibly fuselage primary structures near the occupants being designed to above factors and not the entire chopper. Unfortunately until I research more info about MIL helicopters compliance regulations or someone else posts such info, I have to call that article as misleading (perhaps not intentionally).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 30 May 2018 02:24

HAL seeks private partner to build Dhruv copters for civilian market
Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05/hal-seeks-private-partner-to-build.html

Key thing to note. HAL built 30 Helicopters ahead of time.
Obviously these Indians again don't know how to build on time, we can build it better in Texas Baby !!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pravula » 30 May 2018 02:37

Ahead of time is also indicative of bad manufacturing/production engineering.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2018 03:53

Khalsa wrote:HAL seeks private partner to build Dhruv copters for civilian market
Thirty Dhruv helicopters built by HAL await collection by army and IAF, having been built ahead of time
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2018/05/hal-seeks-private-partner-to-build.html

For me the two takeaways were
Business Standard learns that the EoI has received 10 responses from private firms, including the Adani Group and Reliance. HAL is currently shortlisting eligible bidders, based on capability and capacity. Then, a winner will be selected based on commercial bidding.

I did not expect this. There were hardly any takers for the civil variant of Dhruv-1. I was worried that they won't get any response: 10 is great!!! For the civilian market though, I think HAL will have much higher success with the LUH (if they can prove reliability).

HAL initiated a certification request four years ago with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). HAL officials say EASA is at the final stages of granting certification for the civilian Dhruv.

This has been one of my pet peeves. Good to see it being removed. I am hoping against hope that the ship has not already sailed (with Ecuador) though. If the private industry can take up manufacturing and maintain quality, Dhruv-civil has a fighting chance. But once again, for the civilian market, 3 tonners make much more sense. So waiting for LUH to get clearance.

pravula wrote:Ahead of time is also indicative of bad manufacturing/production engineering.

:eek: Are you serious? I have never heard anybody sulk about early deliveries in the aviation market. May be you can educate me here!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 30 May 2018 03:55

Our folks are very tough. No matter what DPSUs do they suck.

Reminds me of 5Tantra story of "two men and a donkey".

Should look it up.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pravula » 30 May 2018 05:15

Indranil wrote:
pravula wrote:Ahead of time is also indicative of bad manufacturing/production engineering.

:eek: Are you serious? I have never heard anybody sulk about early deliveries in the aviation market. May be you can educate me here!!!


Yes, customers will not sulk if you produce early and have them warehoused. Why would they? My comment is just with respect to production engineering and JIT Warehousing 30 birds is what? 6+ months of production?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pravula » 30 May 2018 05:18

ramana wrote:Our folks are very tough. No matter what DPSUs do they suck.

Reminds me of 5Tantra story of "two men and a donkey".

Should look it up.


Ramana, I am no expert in production engineering, but a large number of warehoused product goes against lean manufacturing principles. Yes, it is better than missing the delivery timelines, doesn't mean there is no scope of improvement.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 30 May 2018 10:41

That can happen when everything is stabilized. An entire ecosystem of part manufacturers within HAL and outside HAL have come up with Dhruv. They have exceeded expectations. This should be celebrated, not criticized. I am sure we would have been singing paeans to the company if this had happened in the private sector!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 30 May 2018 12:22

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... ID=1533824
Ministry of Defence
IAF effort to contain fire at Malviya Nagar
Posted On: 30 MAY 2018 10:54AM by PIB Delhi
Around midnight a request was received at HQ Western Air Command for containing a fire at Malviya Nagar in Delhi. A MLH class helicopter airborne from Sarsawadid a recce and landed at Palam. Thereafter heptr got airborne with Bambi Bucket to contain the fire.

The heptr filled water from Yamuna reservoir and dropped over the site. This had to be repeated thrice to contain the fire. This was the first time the Bambi ops was done in an urban situation wherein the nitty gritties of drop are very precise owing to high rises around and chances of collateral damage. The operations started this morning wherein helicopter flown by Wing Commander Pradeep Bhola of the Mighty Armourswas successful in dousing the fire.

A total of approx 8000 lts of water was dropped in this incident.
ARG/BBS
(Release ID: 1533824) Visitor Counter : 41

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 30 May 2018 12:40

there is no scope for lean engineering when we need to be ready for multiple layers of conflict.
ready and deep parts stockpile.

not selling auto rickshaws or soap here.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 31 May 2018 03:04

JIT Warehousing must be linked into Just in Time Manufacturing must be linked to Just in Time ordering.
We are not producing pharma products here.

This needs to be celebrated at all levels.
Good Lord !!

Without reading it , I think I know what the donkey storey is about.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pravula » 31 May 2018 04:09

My last on this. This is no "Soap or autorickshaw or pharma" manufacturing line.

from:
https://www.f35.com/about/life-cycle/production

The F-35 production strategy is based on flow-to-takt manufacturing implementation. Flow-to-takt is the movement of component assemblies, like wings and forward fuselages, from one build station to the next at a rate equal to the delivery rate. This production rhythm increases efficiencies, lowers costs and reduces span times while synchronizing the delivery of parts, timing of tasks and positioning of personnel to achieve standard work in each line position.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 31 May 2018 10:51

You just couldn't hold it back.
How much is it costing to keep in parked on the tarmac ?

How many engineers did it free from the Dhruv lines for 3 months or 6 months or a year to work on the LUH to outcompete the Kamov
I suggest you drop the matter and celebrate whatever has been done.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Jun 2018 04:13

pravula wrote:My last on this. This is no "Soap or autorickshaw or pharma" manufacturing line.


Never heard Ahead of time production?
Last edited by JayS on 01 Jun 2018 11:57, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited out a sentence. Please no direct personal attack. Its a slippery slope.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 01 Jun 2018 12:01

^ OK. Enough of this now. We have been cursing HAL for delays in production, our forces want and can use everything HAL can produce as fast as possible. So ahead of time production is good. HAL deserves kudos for this definitely.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashthor » 01 Jun 2018 12:42

Read somewhere...they are parked because the infra for them is not ready.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 01 Jun 2018 14:15

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 0313693184

PRESS RELEASE | Tata Boeing Aerospace Ltd announced delivery of the first AH-64 Apache combat helicopter fuselage ahead of schedule from its state-of-the-art facility in Hyderabad. The fuselage will now be transported to Boeing’s AH-64 Apache manufacturing facility in Mesa, AZ,


Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Prasad » 01 Jun 2018 16:18

I spy 3 women in that picture. Good going.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 01 Jun 2018 16:22

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1002469870313693184

PRESS RELEASE | Tata Boeing Aerospace Ltd announced delivery of the first AH-64 Apache combat helicopter fuselage ahead of schedule from its state-of-the-art facility in Hyderabad. The fuselage will now be transported to Boeing’s AH-64 Apache manufacturing facility in Mesa, AZ,


:rotfl:

Obiviously Boeing forgot to tell Tata about 'Flow-to-takt'.. then again they are not Lockheed

(Sorry Jays/Mods, just couldn't resist...)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 06 Jun 2018 09:56

Ministry of Defence
Casuality Evacuation: ISRAELI Nationals
Posted On: 05 JUN 2018 5:58PM by PIB Delhi

On 05 Jun 18, the ‘Himalayan Dragons’ based at Air Force Station Sarsawa were tasked to undertake a challenging casualty evacuation of three Israeli nationals whose vehicle had fallen down in a gorge on the way to Rohtang Pass. One Israeli succumbed to injuries. All three were evacuated in ALH MK III IAF helicopter from Kullu to Chandigarh, along with Israeli embassy official and Medical Officer.

The helicopter got airborne from Sarsawa and landed at Kullu Bhuntar and then from Kullu for Chandigarh with Captain of the aircraft Wing Commander Anil Yadav.

ARG/BBS

(Release ID: 1534416) Visitor Counter : 115

http://www.pib.nic.in/Pressreleaseshare.aspx?PRID=1534416
Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 06 Jun 2018 17:08

Indigenous data recorders for IAF’s attack helicopters
By VijayMohan
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2018/june/01june.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sudhan » 06 Jun 2018 18:04

Isn't Sarsawa the home base for the SG? :twisted:

This Dhruv looks slick. Are these Mk3 variants for SpecOps`?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2018 21:25

jaysimha wrote:Indigenous data recorders for IAF’s attack helicopters
By VijayMohan
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2018/june/01june.pdf


This is good news.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Katare » 10 Jun 2018 10:18

Manish_P wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/1002469870313693184



:rotfl:

Obiviously Boeing forgot to tell Tata about 'Flow-to-takt'.. then again they are not Lockheed

(Sorry Jays/Mods, just couldn't resist...)


What now?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 10 Jun 2018 15:20

BR will descend into another useless round of discussion of JIT manufacting of Indian helicopters.
Give me a gun to commit suicide.


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