Indian Military Helicopters

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2018 21:06

Austin, Nice technology road-map by a developer.

HAL should have their own version of such a road-map tailored to Indian needs.

How does pulp and paper mill tie in with helicopter engines unless they want to use the rotor ideas for the turbine design.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Aug 2018 02:40

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9099149312 ---> HAL Light Combat Helicopter.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Aug 2018 13:02

The LCH looks fantastic.It should also be a winner in export sales.One is sure that it will be very competitive in the intl. market.Production must be planned for for both IA and export potential.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Aug 2018 01:09

Technical specification of LCH Armour Windshield

In Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), pilot and co-pilot seats are in tandem seating configuration. Preferably off-the-shelf Transparent Armour Windshield glass is required to protect the pilot / co-pilot against threat of NATO 7.62mm x 51 ordinary bullet (7.62mm x 51 NATO Ball DM41 Bullet) at an incident angle of 90 deg. with a striking velocity 380 m/sec. The Transparent Armour Windshield glass is flat in surface.

The Transparent Armour Windshield glass should have the following:
i. Single hit capability at multiple places striking distance triangle of 200mm.
ii. Ease of maintenance and replacement during emergency.
iii. It should be interchangeable from one helicopter to other helicopter within LCH fleet.

The helicopter and its systems to be capable for prolonged operation in the following Environmental/Operational conditions:
i. The Helicopter and its systems are tropicalised and capable of prolonged operation in the desert region.
ii. The Helicopter is capable for continuous operation in saline atmosphere prevalent in the coastal region.
iii. Helicopter Soak temperature limits are +700C to -300C.
iv. The Helicopter is operated between +500C to -300C.
v. The Helicopter has provision of wiper on Transparent Armour Windshield glass.
vi. Helicopter cockpit is integrated with demisting line.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Aug 2018 01:53

CasEvac config of LUH.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 21 Aug 2018 07:12

The helicopter and its systems to be capable for prolonged operation in the following Environmental/Operational conditions:
iii. Helicopter Soak temperature limits are +700C to -300C.
iv. The Helicopter is operated between +500C to -300C.

Really ?
500 C
what is it doing hovering above an active volcano ?

this might be a typo for the last zeroes....
the symbol for degree has been translated into a Zero... surely.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Aug 2018 07:56

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Aug 2018 08:49

The last zero in each of those numbers must be the degree sign.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 22 Aug 2018 02:23

Indranil wrote:The last zero in each of those numbers must be the degree sign.

Well said. Has to be. -300 C : Well we shall be breaking laws of Physics as we know it.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 22 Aug 2018 15:34

LCH will be a export winner if we induct it first in numbers and prove its a reliable ..good machine not because it looks good.

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 25 Aug 2018 19:21

Requesting all BRFites for info, if any available on Zhi-10 Attack Helicopter for the following:
- any reliable info on the tech specs of the installed powerplant-
- Is the so called 'Wozhou (WZ)-9' only capable of a measly 1000 kW? Or is that just mis-information?
- Another source indicated that they are using a version of the Russian TV3-117 MT turboshafts (used on the early Mi-17).
- Option -3 : Is it MOST probably the following? - marketing statement from Safran dated 2014:
"Developed in 50/50 partnership with Avic Engine, Ardiden 3C was ground tested for the first time in Bordes (France) in November 2013. Named WZ16 in China, the 1,700 shaft horsepower class Ardiden 3C belongs to the Ardiden 3 engine family, dedicated to the 6 to 8 ton helicopter segment. Ardiden 3C/WZ16 has been selected to power Avicopter AC352, jointly developed with Airbus Helicopters.
The Ardiden 3C/WZ16 program is the result of a strong and long lasting cooperation between Turbomeca and Avic. Through this partnership, operators and aircraft manufacturers will benefit from the know-how and experience of two key players in the field of aircraft propulsion."
I

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 25 Aug 2018 23:14

Good to see you here sir.

This is what I know, after the PT6 embargo, they used Motor Sich’s engines. Motor Sich helped them with the WZ-9. WZ-9 was obviously underpowered for a helicopter which was supposed to carry 16 ATGMs. They used to carry 8. But even that was face-saving. They did not fly with full fuel. They are supposedly using the WZ-16 (illegally, the reason they are so hush hush about it) now and developing a completely indegeneous engine in the background.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 26 Aug 2018 00:00

https://www.safran-helicopter-engines.c ... /wz16/wz16

WZ16 is the Chinese designation of the Ardiden 3C engine, jointly developed (50/50) by Safran Helicopter Engines with AVIC Engine. The WZ16 is fitted in the Chinese AC352, jointly developed by Avic Helicopter with Airbus Helicopters.

It was ground tested in France in November 2013. The engine will be certified by EASA under the designation Ardiden 3C, and by the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC) under the designation WZ16.

The WZ16 is characterized by excellent reliability, low-cost maintenance (TBO 3,000 hours on entry-into-service and 5,000 hours once mature) and extremely low fuel consumption (at least ten per cent less than other engines in the same power range).

chola · Post by **chola** » 26 Aug 2018 12:33

Indranil wrote:Good to see you here sir.

This is what I know, after the PT6 embargo, they used Motor Sich’s engines. Motor Sich helped them with the WZ-9. WZ-9 was obviously underpowered for a helicopter which was supposed to carry 16 ATGMs. They used to carry 8. But even that was face-saving. They did not fly with full fuel. They are supposedly using the WZ-16 (illegally, the reason they are so hush hush about it) now and developing a completely indegeneous engine in the background.

The Z-10 is a weak bird that was beaten by the Turkish T129. There was a thread on PDF of a PA pilot who flew the Z-10 for four years, including operations against their “terrorists.” So the Pakis vacillated for four years with a bird that came without political baggage and finally decided on one that did. The PRC would not be able to export the Z-10 with the Ardiden.

We’ll see if the Pakis can actually get the T129 now that Trump is embargoing Turkey.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Aug 2018 19:38

Army Aviation Corps HAL Rudra Attack Helicopter showing up their skills and maneuvers armed with Forges de Zeebrugge 70mm (2.75”) Rockets Pod and a 20 mm M621 cannon on Nexter THL-20 turret along with SAAB IDAS-3 self-protection suite. https://t.co/7em9BL4Asd

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 27 Aug 2018 17:35

Government just cleared the purchase of 24 MH-60 to replace the ageing Sea Kings

India Clears Decks For 24 American MH-60 Romeo Helicopters For Navy

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Aug 2018 22:17

From AW&ST

India To Buy 200 Ka-226T Helicopters

NEW DELHI—India is expected to formally sign a 210 billion rupee ($3 billion) agreement in October to buy 200 Ka-226T helicopters being developed by Indo Russian Helicopter Pvt Ltd (IRHL).

The technical configuration of the light utility helicopter has been finalized and OK’d by Indian authorities. The project is being implemented under an intergovernmental agreement signed in 2016, a defense ministry official said.

IRHL will soon submit a detailed a proposal to the Indian defense ministry for the purchase.

Russian Helicopter CEO Andrey Boginsky said the Indian defense ministry has extended the deadline for submitting the request for proposals (RFP) for the helicopters, which had earlier been set for Aug. 1.

India’s defense ministry issued an RFP in May to procure and co-produce the helicopters for the country’s army and air force.

The RFP said 135 helicopters would be purchased for the army and 65 for the Indian air force (IAF). The Kamov helicopters will replace aging Cheetah helos.

Russian Helicopter and HAL are crafting a detailed business plan that will identify the order of localization activities, size of investments from both parties, and preparation of the manufacturing site in India.

Boginsky says Russian Helicopter and its Russian suppliers have identified the time required for localization in India.

“Right now the four parties—which includes our company and our suppliers, HAL and potential suppliers in India—are having a dialogue regarding localization for various components, how ready those companies are (to take up localization works) in terms of site, workforce and technologies. So we are actively preparing to start the project even though the contract is not yet signed,” he said.

IRHL is considering involving Indian private companies in the localization program, as many of them have the necessary capabilities. The intergovernmental agreement has a clause for up to 50% localization of manufacturing.

The capital of the joint venture is estimated to be 300 million rupees, with HAL holding shares up to 50.5%. Russian Helicopter will hold 42.5% of the shares and the rest by Rosoboronexport.

The new facility at Tumakuru will be self-contained for production and maintenance of Light Utility Helicopters. The cost to cover initial establishment of the facility is expected to be around 20 billion rupees.

The Indian defense ministry official said the contract is expected to be signed in October during Russian President Vladimir Putin’s visit to New Delhi.

IRHL is expected to fulfill a requirement for more than 200 utility helicopters for the Indian armed forces. Under the agreement, the helicopters manufactured in India would also be exported to third countries.

The Ka-226T has a coaxial rotor system and a maximum takeoff weight of 3.4 tons. It is capable of carrying up to 1.5 tons of cargo or up to seven passengers for 600 km.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2018 20:18

This should be a very easy task- localisation as Tatas are making shells for US helo manufacturers and the bird ix relativelu unsophisticated.We slso havr a history of making French helo engines under licence, so the Frenchies on the 226 would be another breeze.

The naval variant proposed/ offered by Kamov would be interesting to examine, it may be low priced but it has stiff competition from global majors.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 26 Sep 2018 16:16

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1044882941766193154

An IAF Dhruv on rescue duties lands near the Bara-lacha La pass that connects Lahaul and Ladakh. Heavy snowfall has triggered missions to airlift tourists off the heights.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Sep 2018 17:44

Continuing the discussion from Armoured thread -

The other remarkable development I was told is that Attack Helicopters offer better firepower, mobility and protection via MAWS/DIRCM/CMDS and enhanced agility.

Which is why IA is desperate for Apaches and is soaking up Rudras while LCH production ramps up.

Pakistan too has not inducted any tanks beyond 300 T-80 and 300 Al Khalid decades back but is desperately buying -
New AH-1Z from US
Old AH-1F/S from Jordan - ironically sold by Israel to Jordan last decade to help its war on terror
Mi-35 from Russia
assorted chinese stuff

Attack choppers are IA's newfound love given the great performance of AAC Dhruv in Kashmir, Sikkim & Arunanchal. The Dhruv breaks the altitude limitation of Mi-35 in Kargil and Apache in Afghanistan

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 30 Sep 2018 02:50

HAL produced 40 aircraft and helicopters.

What's current order book for helicopters with HAL. Production capacity for Dhruv was 36/yr.. So why we are making so few of them now.

https://m.timesofindia.com/business/ind ... 005103.cms

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 30 Sep 2018 03:26

Looks like LUH has hit a snag. Only 59 test flights in one year with two prototypes, as per HAL annual report. I wonder whats the issue.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2018 07:48

Lack of money affecting ALH production?Possible .
LUH delays? No idea.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Sep 2018 11:08

JayS wrote:Looks like LUH has hit a snag. Only 59 test flights in one year with two prototypes, as per HAL annual report. I wonder whats the issue.

I am a little surprised at this test flight rate too. But, all my contacts said its all fine. They are gunning for IOC next year.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2018 13:00

when is LCH IOC ?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 30 Sep 2018 13:09

You mean LCH FOC? It was awarded IOC years back

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2018 13:34

Alh production run of 145nos IA+ 76nos IAF+ 7nos IN +3nosCG=231nos +30 nos rest for a total of 261 nos is over.
The Bangalore production line is shifting to LCH most probably and new ALH line has come up in Kanpur which will produce 40 nos IA +17nos IN +16nosCG=73nos
While DAC cleared 45nos ALH in 2012 which I think is cancelled and further progress did not take place while wiki shows 35nos pending order for IAF. Not clear on this and no further mention of this in news reports.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 30 Sep 2018 13:42

The ALH production run was max 24/year.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 01 Oct 2018 02:39

tsarkar wrote:Continuing the discussion from Armoured thread -

The other remarkable development I was told is that Attack Helicopters offer better firepower, mobility and protection via MAWS/DIRCM/CMDS and enhanced agility.

Which is why IA is desperate for Apaches and is soaking up Rudras while LCH production ramps up.

Pakistan too has not inducted any tanks beyond 300 T-80 and 300 Al Khalid decades back but is desperately buying -
New AH-1Z from US
Old AH-1F/S from Jordan - ironically sold by Israel to Jordan last decade to help its war on terror
Mi-35 from Russia
assorted chinese stuff

Attack choppers are IA's newfound love given the great performance of AAC Dhruv in Kashmir, Sikkim & Arunanchal. The Dhruv breaks the altitude limitation of Mi-35 in Kargil and Apache in Afghanistan

I think Apaches are a part of the Cold Strike Doctrine where one squadron of Apaches escort one CBG. This is probably why they want the best possible prptection and survivability for those. Rudras and LCH are more for defensive and high altitude combat roles where numbers matter a lot.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 01 Oct 2018 05:23

Kartik wrote:From AW&ST

India To Buy 200 Ka-226T Helicopters

NEW DELHI—India is expected to formally sign a 210 billion rupee ($3 billion) agreement in October to buy 200 Ka-226T helicopters being developed by Indo Russian Helicopter Pvt Ltd (IRHL).

........ The Kamov helicopters will replace aging Cheetah helos.

.......The Ka-226T has a coaxial rotor system and a maximum takeoff weight of 3.4 tons. It is capable of carrying up to 1.5 tons of cargo or up to seven passengers for 600 km.

AW&ST author is surely smoking fresh dope to write stupidity highlighted in bold.
Most Cheetahs are deployed for its high altitude performance (read himalayan flight domain from Kashmir to Kohima) and for that role the LUH is the only direct replacement (even Dhruv does not meet that performance ). Cheetah replacement has to be more capable than Cheetal, 21,000 ft landing /takeoff with > 100kg payload. KA226 hover altitude is much lower.

KA226 will only be for non-Himalayan utility chopper role. It is a very different class (much bigger & heavier) of aircraft compared to Cheetah. But that space is well served by Dhruv and it's derivatives. This is a wastefoool endeavour (no matter Philips rant), path only treaded as a payment to Russia for some hidden national quid pro quo.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Oct 2018 08:14

LCH landing at 4700 mtrs with 500 kg payload doesn’t raise many eyebrows given ALHs precedence. But that’s some serious capability. This means that LCH could take all 8 of its ATGMs and hit heights over 5000 mtrs. That is staggering!

Also ALH production is currently ahead of schedule. The forces cannot absorb the helis at the rate that HAL is producing. Yes, you read it right! They are waiting on HAL tarmac for the forces to take delivery.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Oct 2018 09:04

^^ LCH ensures that in the next mountain war, enemy occupied commanding heights will be thoroughly softened up before infantry charge. LCH is the real game changer for mountain warfare.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Oct 2018 09:30

Indranil wrote: Also ALH production is currently ahead of schedule. The forces cannot absorb the helis at the rate that HAL is producing. Yes, you read it right! They are waiting on HAL tarmac for the forces to take delivery.

Shortage of officers ( Test pilots )........may be.....

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 01 Oct 2018 10:07

Test pilots???
These are earmarked for sq service. Where do TPs come in..
The IA after placing orders does not have infra in place to absorb...
Afterall an AA HU cannot simply fly their Cheetah to HAL hand in their keys and take a new set of ALH keys!!
Bad planning all around...

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 01 Oct 2018 10:49

Indranil wrote:
Also ALH production is currently ahead of schedule. The forces cannot absorb the helis at the rate that HAL is producing. Yes, you read it right! They are waiting on HAL tarmac for the forces to take delivery.

IR, do you have any information how many ALH are on order ? and what's current production rate.

Rudra will be made by same line ? I believe 100+ Rudra might be required by Armed forces.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 01 Oct 2018 11:39

Thakur_B wrote:^^ LCH ensures that in the next mountain war, enemy occupied commanding heights will be thoroughly softened up before infantry charge. LCH is the real game changer for mountain warfare.

So what does MANPADS do to LCH in the mountains, where a/c cant hide but it is always in clear sight of missile?

Hari Nair · Post by **Hari Nair** » 01 Oct 2018 11:42

Haridas wrote:
Kartik wrote:From AW&ST

AW&ST author is surely smoking fresh dope to write stupidity highlighted in bold.
Most Cheetahs are deployed for its high altitude performance (read himalayan flight domain from Kashmir to Kohima) and for that role the LUH is the only direct replacement (even Dhruv does not meet that performance ). Cheetah replacement has to be more capable than Cheetal, 21,000 ft landing /takeoff with > 100kg payload. KA226 hover altitude is much lower.

KA226 will only be for non-Himalayan utility chopper role. It is a very different class (much bigger & heavier) of aircraft compared to Cheetah. But that space is well served by Dhruv and it's derivatives. This is a wastefoool endeavour (no matter Philips rant), path only treaded as a payment to Russia for some hidden national quid pro quo.

I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 01 Oct 2018 12:32

Hari Nair wrote:I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter.

We would kindly request you for a comparison between LUH, Dhruv, Ka-226 and venerable Cheetah if possible.

We all read the Dhruv has flown to Sonam post with 600 kg load against 200 kg requirement, possibly with you in the cockpit!
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2011/03/ ... eater.html

So what is the need for Ka-226 or even the LUH? In the 80's & 90's, the Dhruv was ALH - advanced light helicopter - designed to replace Chetak & Cheetah.

I also understand due to safety issues the Chetak too was de-inducted from high altitude roles after a couple of crashes.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 01 Oct 2018 12:42

Haridas wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ LCH ensures that in the next mountain war, enemy occupied commanding heights will be thoroughly softened up before infantry charge. LCH is the real game changer for mountain warfare.
So what does MANPADS do to LCH in the mountains, where a/c cant hide but it is always in clear sight of missile?

Manpads will always be a threat, but the previous solution was artillery+ fixed wing airpower. Imagine a kargil like situation today, but our attack helicopters can now operate at altitude. Which means less dependencies on fixed wing aircraft.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 01 Oct 2018 12:45

Hari Nair wrote:
Haridas wrote: AW&ST author is surely smoking fresh dope to write stupidity highlighted in bold.
Most Cheetahs are deployed for its high altitude performance (read himalayan flight domain from Kashmir to Kohima) and for that role the LUH is the only direct replacement (even Dhruv does not meet that performance ). Cheetah replacement has to be more capable than Cheetal, 21,000 ft landing /takeoff with > 100kg payload. KA226 hover altitude is much lower.

KA226 will only be for non-Himalayan utility chopper role. It is a very different class (much bigger & heavier) of aircraft compared to Cheetah. But that space is well served by Dhruv and it's derivatives. This is a wastefoool endeavour (no matter Philips rant), path only treaded as a payment to Russia for some hidden national quid pro quo.
I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter.

There goes the HAL LUH

, I was hoping HAL would have enough time to complete LUH and take a bigger pie of the Light helicopter requirement. What is the future for it now ?