Indian Military Helicopters

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Trikaal
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

JayS wrote: You are simply comparing apples vs oranges and saying 'Apples are better' because you like apples better than oranges. Two different machines, designed with different scenarios and requirements in mind. LCH has lot of commonality with Dhruv and Rudra. It was much low risk path to make a medium a LCH with existing capabilities. Also it suited well for the capability gap which we could not have filled by imports anyhow, high altitude warfare. If IA/IAF need heavy gunships in large numbers, they can ask HAL to make one.

"Rain down hell" looks good in Rambo movies and in brochures. Real life is often more nuanced.
That is exactly what I am not doing !!! Did u not read my comment ? I said india has apples and is trying to use apples in scenarios where we need oranges, while buying a few oranges from outside. We need to be building our own brand of oranges.
Apples- LCH
Oranges-Apache
I agree with you on making LCH was a smart decision. Not contesting that. All I am saying is that now that LCH is ready, we need to focus on a heavy attack indigenous copter instead of trying to fit LCH into that role. If we start development soon, we won't be dependent on imports in orange category in future
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

uddu wrote:^^^Where's the lack of quality wrt LCH? Quality wise it's better than Apache's. Regarding Heavy attack chopper, that could be next variant of LCH.
In what respect is LCH better than Apache ? Making sweeping generalizations, while soothing to our ego, doesn't help much. I suggest u look up data on both before reaching a conclusion. LCH, no doubt, is a very capable machine, but it excels in mountain warfare, high altitude warfare. It becomes an ordinary 'light' attack helicopter in plains. It's biggest strength is the ability to carry significant armament at high altitude, something in which most other helicopters fail.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by samirdiw »

JayS wrote:
Trikaal wrote: If IA/IAF need heavy gunships in large numbers, they can ask HAL to make one.

Exactly!

Where is the request by army asking Defense ministry for A heavy gunship? How many years did it wait after that? What were the timelines it gave GoI? How many years in advance does it give the govt before it becomes an emergency as usual? Pardon my ignorance if these are not important questions.

What will it take to convert a version of LCH to a CH that can be used in the plains?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

Cybaru wrote:
Whats your expertise or basis for making such a claim?
If this is where we are going, what is your expertise to oppose such a claim? No one here has the power of decision making. We are all, at the end of the day, defense enthusiasts on a defence forum. If everyone here needs 'expertise' , it is going to be a very lonely forum very soon
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

Trikaal wrote:
uddu wrote:^^^Where's the lack of quality wrt LCH? Quality wise it's better than Apache's. Regarding Heavy attack chopper, that could be next variant of LCH.
In what respect is LCH better than Apache ? Making sweeping generalizations, while soothing to our ego, doesn't help much. I suggest u look up data on both before reaching a conclusion. LCH, no doubt, is a very capable machine, but it excels in mountain warfare, high altitude warfare. It becomes an ordinary 'light' attack helicopter in plains. It's biggest strength is the ability to carry significant armament at high altitude, something in which most other helicopters fail.
Have you read, what the LCH test pilot have to say about LCH? If not better read it first.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

pankajs wrote:Anyone can throw in a statement like "x is an inferior option compared to y". Where it the data to back it? Has anyone done any cost benefit analysis to reach the conclusion?
Well, LCH hasn't been produced in numbers yet, so all data available on it is speculative and test data, not field data. Cost benefit analysis of what ? Developing a heavy attack indigenous helicopter ? Versus importing ? Pretty straight forward what such an analysis would yield
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

shiv wrote: Why is a big heavy helo needed for armour when Syria shows that men with RPGs can take out tanks? Even Apache is not going to loiter around a tank column shouting "mine is bigger". It will shoot from a safe distance. So will LCH.

Here is a comparison of A 10 Gatling and a salvo of rockets from Mi 35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuLnnVDld-M
Shiv, I believe there's a vast difference in tactics in offense and defense. RPGs work as a cheap solution when defending against a superior enemy incursion. But u can't honestly expect us to go blitzkrieging through pakistan with just soldiers carrying RPGs. A heavy attack helicopter is an important part of cold start doctrine, or an offensive armoured column movement
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

samirdiw wrote:

Exactly!

Where is the request by army asking Defense ministry for A heavy gunship? How many years did it wait after that? What were the timelines it gave GoI? How many years in advance does it give the govt before it becomes an emergency as usual? Pardon my ignorance if these are not important questions.

What will it take to convert a version of LCH to a CH that can be used in the plains?
I want to add that we are ALREADY importing heavy attack helicopters. So attack helis are very much already a part of the doctrine. If we are gaining self sufficiency in other categories of helis, why not in this one too.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

uddu wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
In what respect is LCH better than Apache ? Making sweeping generalizations, while soothing to our ego, doesn't help much. I suggest u look up data on both before reaching a conclusion. LCH, no doubt, is a very capable machine, but it excels in mountain warfare, high altitude warfare. It becomes an ordinary 'light' attack helicopter in plains. It's biggest strength is the ability to carry significant armament at high altitude, something in which most other helicopters fail.
Have you read, what the LCH test pilot have to say about LCH? If not better read it first.
Once again, a half statement. What exactly should I red about ? I imagine by now, a test pilot must have said a lot of stuff about a lot of aspects. Also, since when is a test pilot a reliable critic of battlefield requirements ?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

Trikaal wrote:
uddu wrote:
Have you read, what the LCH test pilot have to say about LCH? If not better read it first.
Once again, a half statement. What exactly should I red about ? I imagine by now, a test pilot must have said a lot of stuff about a lot of aspects. Also, since when is a test pilot a reliable critic of battlefield requirements ?
Absolutely. Anytime, over armchair warriors like you and me. :)
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

They know man. You don't worry too much about it. When the time arises and armed forces need such a product from HAL and HAL is ready to make such a heavy bird, they will make it.Why this hurry that they must make it today itself. Lets wait and watch.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pankajs »

Let me start with you post
Trikaal wrote:ALH/Rudra/LCH is very good inside it's niche, high altitude combat and recon but not very effective in CAS role. It is time HAL started work on a gunship for the army. Something comparable to Apache, hind Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of the amount of steel it can pump out.
You compare LCH to Apache, Mi24 or Kamov Black Shark in terms of "amount of steel it can pump". No reference to indigenous v/s import.
Trikaal wrote: LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.
You compare LCH to Apache and Black Shark in terms of ability "to rain down hell". Again, No reference to indigenous v/s import.
Trikaal wrote:
pankajs wrote:Anyone can throw in a statement like "x is an inferior option compared to y". Where it the data to back it? Has anyone done any cost benefit analysis to reach the conclusion?
Well, LCH hasn't been produced in numbers yet, so all data available on it is speculative and test data, not field data. Cost benefit analysis of what ? Developing a heavy attack indigenous helicopter ? Versus importing ? Pretty straight forward what such an analysis would yield
And then You say "all data available on it is speculative and test data" but then you say "Pretty straight forward what such an analysis would yield".

1. If the data is as you claim *speculative" how did you compare it to Apache and Black shark in the first place? You must have used some data to reach you conclusions. Please share that only. We can then figure a way out to do cost benefit analysis.
2. Your initial "rain down hell" or "pump steel" posts had no reference to indigenous v/s import when comparing. Why bring it in now but only to muddy the real question?
3. And to top is all you again end with "Pretty straight forward what such an analysis would yield". If *speculative" data can be used to reach "Pretty straight forward" conclusion then it can be used to to a cost benefit analysis.

The only way to reach a any conclusion on ability to "rain down hell" or "pump steel" is to do a cost benefit analysis. Lets start with whatever *speculative* data you used to reach Pretty straight forward" conclusions.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Trikaal wrote: But u can't honestly expect us to go blitzkrieging through pakistan with just soldiers carrying RPGs. A heavy attack helicopter is an important part of cold start doctrine, or an offensive armoured column movement
I did not say that. I said even "heavy helicopters" are vulnerable. I don't think the LCH is that vulnerable. Heavy helos are not going to expose themselves any more than light helos - given the types of anti aircraft weapons that can be used. The only difference between LCH and Apache in attacking a tank column is in endurance and weapons load. "Raining steel" with guns is only good for soft skin vehicles. Not tanks. Both LCH and Apache will use ATGMs. If Apaches have Longbow - they will stick that radar out above a terrain feature and use a missile. The LCH will also hide behind terrain and just stick its nose mounted sensors up but its rotors will e more visible. But for both it will be approach behind terrain, pop up, spot and shoot and hide again. Heavy armoured helos are not going to be risking themselves just because they have more armour. That armour does not bestow invulnerability except in Hollywood and Discover channel.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

uddu wrote:
Trikaal wrote:
Once again, a half statement. What exactly should I red about ? I imagine by now, a test pilot must have said a lot of stuff about a lot of aspects. Also, since when is a test pilot a reliable critic of battlefield requirements ?
Absolutely. Anytime, over armchair warriors like you and me. :)
I could literally predict your response. Of course, I am not a reliable critic, but then people aren't quoting me on defense forums, are they? Btw, I still don't know what article or which test pilot u are referring to. Maybe provide a link?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

uddu wrote:They know man. You don't worry too much about it. When the time arises and armed forces need such a product from HAL and HAL is ready to make such a heavy bird, they will make it.Why this hurry that they must make it today itself. Lets wait and watch.
How many times has it happened now that HAL has been late ? Isn't it worthwhile to start early. And what do u mean 'need such a product'? We already need it . Do u know that we are already importing Apache ? Or that we were considering black shark?
Last edited by Trikaal on 28 Aug 2017 21:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

Trikaal wrote:
uddu wrote:
Absolutely. Anytime, over armchair warriors like you and me. :)
I could literally predict your response. Of course, I am not a reliable critic, but then people aren't quoting me on defense forums, are they? Btw, I still don't know what article or which test pilot u are referring to. Maybe provide a link?
Don't expect spoon feeding. Go and read everything out there. But still for some other details posted by a BRFite go through this
http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.in/2 ... egant.html
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sudeepj »

shiv wrote:
Trikaal wrote: LCH is for high altitude warfare, kargil like situations. It does have a lot of versatility and can be used in low altitudes too, but for cas for armed columns, u need behemoths like Apache and black shark to rain down hell. I am not dissing LCH here, it is a very promising machine and outperforms everyone in its niche role, but it is not designed to carry nearly as much armaments as these others.
Why is a big heavy helo needed for armour when Syria shows that men with RPGs can take out tanks? Even Apache is not going to loiter around a tank column shouting "mine is bigger". It will shoot from a safe distance. So will LCH.
I dont want to weigh in on LCH vs Apache, but Syria was a special case of war, where an urban redoubt had to be reduced. Reducing urban redoubts is not the best use of tanks. Almost always, tanks take pretty bad casualties when pitched into urban combat. The best use of tanks is to punch enmasse through a strongly defended line, such as in Punjab, or maneuver around enemy armies (such as in Rajasthan) to reach the undefended rear areas and wreak havoc.

You can put 100 'RPG teams', but when they have an armored brigade moving at them at high speed, on a narrow frontage, under conditions of local air superiority, in the time it takes them to pop off a few rockets, the tanks will be far past them and roaring on to some soft target like a rear airfield, or some factories or a politically important objective to force a surrender. Tanks, if properly deployed, will turn up in numbers you dont expect, in an area you dont expect, and be able to move towards an objective at speeds you dont expect.

Given the speed, the numbers and the surprise with which armor can move, and the length of the Indian borders, perhaps the best way to counter a large tank army focused on an unexpected point in your defense line then is not more tanks, but a fast reaction force that can interdict a tank army in the enemy areas, destroy its supply convoy, and in general, take the battle to them. Say, you hear of an armored thrust 100 kms from your reserves. Itll take the better part of a day for you to move your reserves to a point where you can counter them! meanwhile, the enemy is moving cross country at 30-40kms an hour! The terrain may not cooperate and provide you a point where you can force that enemy thrust to offer battle. For instance, if your reserves is just infantry and you deploy them at a road junction, the enemy may simply choose to bypass this strong point with his tracked vehicles and continue on towards, say, a rear airfield, factory, political institution etc.

An attack helicopter or similar airborne firepower is the best counter for such an armored breakthrough. In offence, it can also guard the flanks of a move by our own soft(er) vehicles as they move towards some objective. It can move much faster than the enemy can and therefore preempt flanking moves. It also solves the problem of real time intelligence on enemy movements. It can orient itself w.r.t enemy forces in the air and fix the enemy location. In other words, an armored helicopter force is a newer form of cavalry.

Coming to the LCH vs Apache debate, I would love to know the advantages Apache brings to the table. There is the longbow, the armor, electronic networking, battle proven, interoperability and the ability to tap into NATO supply lines.. But is it worth the price? I dont know.. :-)
Last edited by sudeepj on 28 Aug 2017 21:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

Trikaal wrote:
uddu wrote:They know man. You don't worry too much about it. When the time arises and armed forces need such a product from HAL and HAL is ready to make such a heavy bird, they will make it.Why this hurry that they must make it today itself. Lets wait and watch.
Seriously ? U are saying that ? Were u born yesterday ? How many times has it happened now that HAL has been late ? And what do u mean 'need such a product's? We already need it . Do u not know that we are already importing Apache ? Or that we were considering black shark? Seriously, u need to get out of ur bubble
We do have a requirement for flying saucers. Can we make it now? So when it can be made by HAL a product that can carry little bit more weight, have more weight, more powerful engine to carry that weight around. Let them make it. You can't expect someone to comeup with a product when HAL is not ready and there is some x,y,z requirement or expectations. By the way HAL is not late. They are actually ahead of time. Already delivered Dhruv and its variants, Rudra, LCH, LUH and we can expect similarly great rotor products from them in terms of Medium Helicopter and possibly a heavy helicopter that could be based on LCH, being little bit lighter and able to carry more payload than any Apache's.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

shiv wrote: The only difference between LCH and Apache in attacking a tank column is in endurance and weapons load. "Raining steel" with guns is only good for soft skin vehicles. Not tanks.
Apache can carry 16 atgm vs 4 on LCH. That means 1 Apache is equivalent to 4 LCH in armoured column warfare.
shiv wrote:
If Apaches have Longbow - they will stick that radar out above a terrain feature and use a missile. The LCH will also hide behind terrain and just stick its nose mounted sensors up but its rotors will e more visible. But for both it will be approach behind terrain, pop up, spot and shoot and hide again. Heavy armoured helos are not going to be risking themselves just because they have more armour. That armour does not bestow invulnerability except in Hollywood and Discover channel.
I am nowhere claim heavy attack helis are invulnerable. But u can't deny that they have a very definitive role in the indian army or else Apache wouldn't be bought. All I am saying is that now that LCH development is over, we should focus on this field and attain self sufficiency here too.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rakesh »

Trikaal wrote:Seriously ? U are saying that ? Were u born yesterday ? How many times has it happened now that HAL has been late ? And what do u mean 'need such a product's? We already need it . Do u not know that we are already importing Apache ? Or that we were considering black shark? Seriously, u need to get out of ur bubble
You need to cease and desist this right now or the admins will do it for you.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

sudeepj wrote:
Coming to the LCH vs Apache debate, I would love to know the advantages Apache brings to the table. There is the longbow, the armor, electronic networking, battle proven, interoperability and the ability to tap into NATO supply lines.. But is it worth the price? I dont know.. :-)
Which is exactly why now is the right time to invest in an indigenous version.
P.S.: one more advantage is more armaments. For example, Apache can carry 16 atgm vs 4 atgm on LCH
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

the apache/Mi28N will have 1 day in a 3 year war where they can use their considerable 16 ATGM payload like maybe in the video i posted.

imo its a better use case to have more endurance and 8 ATGMs or 4 large rocket pods than be specced up to obscene levels. targets of opportunity sometimes pop up right when units have flown off station to refuel.

the LCH can carry upto 8 ATGMs because all contenders are dual racked.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WrrbxE9nagM/U ... 781272.JPG

at a loaded cost of 50% of apache and no dependence on complex khan avionics, 2 x LCH/ Rudra is a great value vs the gold plated Apaches which we can never buy in the 100s needed.

that way even the supercobra/AH1W is a great VFM product. very hard to hit from front due to narrow profile and packs a lot of teeth.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

Rakesh wrote: You need to cease and desist this right now or the admins will do it for you.
Edited my response. Sorry, new guy here, tend to get over-excited.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by uddu »

Singha wrote:the apache/Mi28N will have 1 day in a 3 year war where they can use their considerable 16 ATGM payload like maybe in the video i posted.

imo its a better use case to have more endurance and 8 ATGMs or 4 large rocket pods than be specced up to obscene levels. targets of opportunity sometimes pop up right when units have flown off station to refuel.

the LCH can carry upto 8 ATGMs because all contenders are dual racked.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WrrbxE9nagM/U ... 781272.JPG

at a loaded cost of 50% of apache and no dependence on complex khan avionics, 2 x LCH/ Rudra is a great value vs the gold plated Apaches which we can never buy in the 100s needed.

that way even the supercobra/AH1W is a great VFM product. very hard to hit from front due to narrow profile and packs a lot of teeth.
Sirji. It's 8 ATGM plus 4 AAM's or some other combinations http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-37CTJbxB_cw/U ... config.jpg

Even though the ability for Apache to carry all 16 ATGM's as payload exist but when combined with rockets+ATGM both Apache and LCH look similar. It's 8ATGM's.
http://www.satnews.com/cgi-bin/display_ ... 1926842116
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by samirdiw »

LCH not as good as Apache's is beside the point and misses the forest for the trees. Can it function sufficiently in partnership with our tanks? If yes then it should have taken on the heavy gunship role and a future version made that can swap out the earlier ones.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Trikaal wrote:
shiv wrote: The only difference between LCH and Apache in attacking a tank column is in endurance and weapons load. "Raining steel" with guns is only good for soft skin vehicles. Not tanks.
Apache can carry 16 atgm vs 4 on LCH. That means 1 Apache is equivalent to 4 LCH in armoured column warfare.
Also longer exposure to anti-aircraft fire because of need to stay longer to use that heavier load. Also higher cost per sortie. In numerous cases where a local assault is led by 2-3 tanks to overrun a feature - say capture a bridge or a road - an Apache would be overkill.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by sudeepj »

Singha wrote:the apache/Mi28N will have 1 day in a 3 year war where they can use their considerable 16 ATGM payload like maybe in the video i posted.

imo its a better use case to have more endurance and 8 ATGMs or 4 large rocket pods than be specced up to obscene levels. targets of opportunity sometimes pop up right when units have flown off station to refuel.

the LCH can carry upto 8 ATGMs because all contenders are dual racked.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WrrbxE9nagM/U ... 781272.JPG

at a loaded cost of 50% of apache and no dependence on complex khan avionics, 2 x LCH/ Rudra is a great value vs the gold plated Apaches which we can never buy in the 100s needed.

that way even the supercobra/AH1W is a great VFM product. very hard to hit from front due to narrow profile and packs a lot of teeth.
If survivability is a concern, weapons load out certainly becomes a huge factor. If you are going to last one or two trips to the battlefield, you need to be able to bring a tonne of hurt in those few trips. Put it another way, if an attack heptr lasts two trips to the battlefield, apache will be able to fire off 32 ATGMS, compared to 16 by the LCH! Another concern is pilot survivability. If the pilots survive the fights, you can put them in either spare airframes or spare airframes you get on an emergency basis or repaired airframes. On the other hand if the pilots die, thats it. I think Apache may have more armor and higher levels of protection compared to the LCH.

If I remember correctly, quad racks on the LCH were problematic because of ground clearance concerns. Perhaps they can put them over the wing stub similar to the Jaguar, or figure out some other jugad in later versions.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Trikaal wrote: I am nowhere claim heavy attack helis are invulnerable. But u can't deny that they have a very definitive role in the indian army or else Apache wouldn't be bought. All I am saying is that now that LCH development is over, we should focus on this field and attain self sufficiency here too.
No one is saying that they have no use. All I am saying is disputing your claim that the LCH cannot perform the role that an Apaches does. It can actually do more if you exclude the Longbow advantage. Ultimately - no matter what Discovery Channel says armour protection can only go so far and no further
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

sudeepj wrote: Coming to the LCH vs Apache debate, I would love to know the advantages Apache brings to the table. There is the longbow, the armor, electronic networking, battle proven, interoperability and the ability to tap into NATO supply lines.. But is it worth the price? I dont know.. :-)
All I am saying is that you don't need "heavy" helicopters to take out heavy tanks. Light helos will do. The RPG analogy was to point out that the weight of the munition carrier is not the point
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pankajs »

And I believe that LCH will *pump more lead/steel/rocket/ATGM* per khotta sikka. That is my cost benefit analysis.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Trikaal wrote: Apples- LCH
Oranges-Apache
Apples and Oranges are not helicopters.. Analogies should not be a replacement for facts. State the facts and quit the rhetoric of "raining down hell" or "raining steel" which is only good for NatGeo or Hollywood.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Manish_P »

Trikaal wrote:
Rakesh wrote: You need to cease and desist this right now or the admins will do it for you.
Edited my response. Sorry, new guy here, tend to get over-excited.
Trikaal ji. Am new guy also, so can understand :)

Just be judicious in your choice of words and bring as many facts and data to support your arguments/theories and you will find good responses and engagement from knowledgeable posters (many with actual experience/expertise in the corresponding field)

I agree with your points about us needing to build a 'heavy' Attack Helicopter in-house. On the helicopters front we seem to have made good steady progress. So i am positively hopeful that we will have our own 'heavy' hitting combat helicopters soon. Faster than our next gen fixed wing fighter or our UCAV, for instance.

PS: By heavy i am referring to more armor protection (which due to the weight penalty, might lead to need for more powerful and heavier engines...)
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Manish_P wrote: Just be judicious in your choice of words and bring as many facts and data to support your arguments/theories
Not disputing what you say - this is good advice, but the unfortunate thing is that "facts and data" are often picked up from the most well advertised sources who are paid for publicizing some things - like Discovery/NatGeo/History Channel or Online videos praising some weapons system to high heavens. Use of American expressions like "Raining Hell" and "Highway of death" are often and indicator of where the information is coming from. Those expressions are generally not used by the more serious sources including people who have actually faced fire.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by darshhan »

pankajs wrote:And I believe that LCH will *pump more lead/steel/rocket/ATGM* per khotta sikka. That is my cost benefit analysis.
Yeah exactly. Per rupee lch will give better output. No doubt about it.

Plus even if you consider that lch has half payload compared to apache and you will have to put two no.lch to equal apache's war output, it will actually provide better redundancy. The number of manpads required to take down 2 no. LCHs will have to be doubled compared to what will be used against Apache.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Manish_P »

shiv wrote:
Manish_P wrote: Just be judicious in your choice of words and bring as many facts and data to support your arguments/theories
Not disputing what you say - this is good advice, but the unfortunate thing is that "facts and data" are often picked up from the most well advertised sources who are paid for publicizing some things - like Discovery/NatGeo/History Channel or Online videos praising some weapons system to high heavens. Use of American expressions like "Raining Hell" and "Highway of death" are often and indicator of where the information is coming from. Those expressions are generally not used by the more serious sources including people who have actually faced fire.
Agreed Shiv ji. But this being a public internet forum and not a closed user group of serving and ex services personnel, there is only so much which can be done by the other posters and mods.

Decades earlier it was British type of expressions (boffins, bash on, jingo etc), now it is the turn of the American types (badass, rain hell,..)
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rakesh »

Jaitley inaugurates light combat helicopter manufacture in HAL
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/08/j ... ombat.html
HAL prices the LCH at Rs 231 crore each, less than half the cost of the more capable AH-64E Apache
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Trikaal »

Ok just wanted to clarify something. A lot of posters are talking about LCH giving more bang per buck ( or as Shiv sir doesn't like american idioms, 'more value for money'), I already agree with all of you. I AM NOT asking for buying more Apache. I am supporting developing a local Apache. If our scientists and engineers at HAL were able to develop a cost effective light combat helis, I expect them to develop a similarly cost effective heavy attack helicopter. Maybe the cost effectiveness of such a heavy attack helicopter will be even more pronounced since it won't have the requirement of performing high altitude roles. What I am against is being satisfied with LCH and using it in roles it is not developed for. Can LCH perform that role ? Yes. Will it be optimal ? No, a machine developed exclusively for that role will obviously be more optimal.
Last edited by Indranil on 30 Aug 2017 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warned for trolling
pankajs
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pankajs »

^
Bhai progress is iterative. We are still to get LCH-1. One just needs to look at the ALH development path i.e Mark I, II, III and only now they have started to aim higher. LCH might not have such a long drawn out path but it will still have a couple of upgrades before a heavier version shows up. Give it a decade or so from 2018 i.e in about 2028-30 time frame.

Edit: LCH instead of LCA
Last edited by pankajs on 29 Aug 2017 00:13, edited 1 time in total.
pankajs
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by pankajs »

Rakesh wrote:Jaitley inaugurates light combat helicopter manufacture in HAL
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/08/j ... ombat.html
HAL prices the LCH at Rs 231 crore each, less than half the cost of the more capable AH-64E Apache
Fixed cost over *Limited* SP build will makes its cost higher. Once production start in full swing expect the tag to fall depending on how much we can sweat the assets.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Rakesh »

Trikaal wrote:Ok just wanted to clarify something. A lot of posters are talking about LCH giving more bang per buck ( or as Shiv sir doesn't like american idioms, 'more value for money'), I already agree with all of you. I AM NOT asking for buying more Apache. I am supporting developing a local Apache. If our scientists and engineers at HAL were able to develop a cost effective light combat helis, I expect them to develop a similarly cost effective heavy attack helicopter. Maybe the cost effectiveness of such a heavy attack helicopter will be even more pronounced since it won't have the requirement of performing high altitude roles. What I am against is being satisfied with LCH and using it in roles it is not developed for. Can LCH perform that role ? Yes. Will it be optimal ? No, a machine developed exclusively for that role will obviously be more optimal.
Trikaal: Why don't we continue this discussion when HAL brings out a heavy attack helicopter? Till then, I think your point has been understood loud and clear. Can we move on?
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