Indian Military Helicopters

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srai
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srai »

^^^

I found a CAG report from 2010-11 that states the ALH production was at 24/year with the eventual goal of taking it to 32/year.
...
It can be seen that as against envisaged and approved production of 296 ALH by Board upto 2008-09, target set was for 104 ALH while actual production was only 96 ALH.

On a review of actual production vis-a vis production plan, it was observed that though a peak production of 32 ALH was planned from 2002-03, the present available capacity was only 24, due to non-availability of dedicated jigs for 32 ALH at the critical assembly stage. Production and delivery of 20 utility version of ALH due in 2008-09, was shifted to 2009-10 since the Company was addressing the problems on Integration of Shakti Engine, interchangeable parts, Active Vibration Control system and Communication system. Further, the budget estimates were revised every year to bring them in line with the actual production.
...
So that whole article reporting 8/year was "false" news ;)
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

CAG referring to Army Aviation Corp and HAL inability to meet the numbers desired and that armed Dhruv was yet to be inducted two years after the unit has been raised.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

So it refers to rudra production only looks like
srai
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srai »

Austin,

Here is the exact CAG report 2015. Check out from Chapter III: AAC (Page 49-67).

No where in it says those lines as written in that article you refer to:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece
...
They also state that " While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised. ...
...
The writer made that part up! But it is written in a way to make it look like it is in the CAG report, which it is not.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by NRao »

rohitvats
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by rohitvats »

The Annual Report of HAL for year 2013-14 has details about the value of ALH to be ferried out. Now, considering that average cost of a Dhruv helicopter is INR 40 Crores (which itself is pretty old estimate), the number of Dhruv manufactured and supplied by HAL in the years mentioned can be computed:

Year - Value of ALH to be ferried out (INR Lakh) - No of units (@INR 40 Crore/unit)

2012-13 - 82,012 - 21
2013-14 - 100,628 - 25

However, the Annual Report of HAL for year 2014-15 has differing details for value of ALH to be ferried out for the above two years:

Year - Value of ALH to be ferried out (INR Lakh) - No of units (@INR 40 Crore/unit)

2012-13 - 45,664 - 11
2013-14 - 41,071 - 10
2014-15 - 123,628 - 31

IMO, the discrepancy is because while HAL calculates value of good basis Signaling Out Certificate(SOC), this does not imply acceptance by end-user. It is likely that no of ALH accepted were lower than manufactured. The actual Ferry-Out might or might not be equal to units manufactured.

So, even if HAL is at its peak production capacity, the actual units absorbed is lower than manufactured.

From the HAL report on how sales figures are quoted:
Sales has been set up in accordance with para-9.1 of the Accounting policy
based on Signaling Out Certifi cate(SOC). It was commented by C&AG during
the audit of the Accounts of 2012-13 that the existing policy for recognition
of revenue based on SOC need to be revisited and reframed as the SOCs are
given with signifi cant concessions. C&AG had suggested that the readiness of
Aircraft for delivery is to be considered as the basis for Revenue recognition in
addition to SOC in respect of the aircraft & ferry out and the acceptance by the
Board of Offi cers(BOO) as specifi ed in the Contract for helicopters. The issue
had been examined in consultation with legal and professional experts in the
fi eld and the Audit committee had also noted C&AG observations on policy of
Setting up of sales based on signaling out certifi cates and was of the view that
once the Aircraft / Helicopter has been accepted by the certifying authorities,
sales could be set up. As the fl ying of Aircraft / Helicopter and ferrying out to
customer’s base was prerogative of the customer, it was noted that the sales
would continue to be set up based on the SOC as was being done in the earlier
years. Accordingly sales for the current year has been set up based on SOC and
not based on ferry out.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by abhik »

Yagnasri wrote:I think Apache was ordered when there was some uncertainty about the timelines on LCH. But since we signed it, we have to honour it unless there is some legal way of doing it. But if we can buy some GE 414s or 404s in good numbers or may be F35s off the shelf from the US we may renegotiate the matter.
There is always uncertainty with indigenously developed systems, so imports of backup systems(which of course the are 400% certain and on time) are a given. Just imagine the horror if the armed forces had to wait till 2018 to get the LUH instead of getting the Fennce in 2008. Or IAF waiting till 2015 for the LCA instead of inducting Rafales in 2012. Or wait till 2016 just for the gimped 45-cal Dhanush rather than getting TFTA 52-cal towed artillery in 2007 rather. Or waiting till 2017 for the first LCH instead of getting Apaches in 2014. I can go on onlee. :|
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by abhik »

"The previous tender had to be scrapped in 2015 as the twin-tube solutions could not be found and having a four-tube launcher would have resulted in the boom touching the ground while landing as the Rudra is not a genuine attack machine," sources in the Army said.
Not sure what is cooking here, IIRS the PARS-3LR was shortlisted after extensive trials in the sizzling heat of the German desert. A twin launcher was especially developed for this requirement - Image Link. The launcher dabba was planned to be made in India by a local partner as part of the offsets.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kartik »

HAL is building Dhruvs for the IA and the IAF, as well as few for the IN. Obviously, they need to fulfill requirements of other services as well, not just the IA. If that means that the IA is getting just 8 Dhruvs per year, then how many are the IAF and IN getting?

Simple point is this- we are in the position to achieve full self-sufficiency in light and light medium helicopter categories, as well as in light medium gunships, except for the naval requirements. This extreme urgency is being made up to justify the 200 Ka-226T Hoodlums, since in a couple of years the LUH itself will start to be delivered in limited series batches. Russian direct imports of 40 Ka-226T will supposedly stem the urgent requirements till production in India begins to deliver the rest.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

40 Ka 226T will be more then what Russians produced in last 10 years, and we expect them to deliver it in next 2-3 years? It's production line in Russia is also non existent.

We should have tried to get Mi-17 series production line in India as we are one of the biggest operators.
Instead we bought 151 Mi-17 off the shelf between 2008 and 2016.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Sid wrote:40 Ka 226T will be more then what Russians produced in last 10 years, and we expect them to deliver it in next 2-3 years? It's production line in Russia is also non existent.

We should have tried to get Mi-17 series production line in India as we are one of the biggest operators.
Instead we bought 151 Mi-17 off the shelf between 2008 and 2016.
haha, YES! someone else thinks so too! I used the word strategic purchase last time and I got 50 lashes! Anyways, I am happy we are doing the IMRH!! Woot thats one sweet bird..
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

Cheen meantime has got itself a Mi17 production line with a new powerful engine.
this will no doubt be cloned as a new Z-17 helicopter in due course.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Singha »

the rape of our precious tax money continues under various guises.

atleast the apache has the fig leaf of being tfta and combat proven. the ka226T does not even have that.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by deejay »

Singha wrote:Cheen meantime has got itself a Mi17 production line with a new powerful engine.
this will no doubt be cloned as a new Z-17 helicopter in due course.
I hear 3 BRD and Mi 17 Helicopters MII. Don't quote me, don't sue me cause I have lost some hearing.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Base repair depot will manufacture? Forget private and public sector, army will directly assemble? Whaaatup?
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

Singha wrote:Cheen meantime has got itself a Mi17 production line with a new powerful engine.
this will no doubt be cloned as a new Z-17 helicopter in due course.
When did Cheen get production line of Mi-17 ?They just import it
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

BRD cant manufacture it they just maintain and upgrade it , like BRD upgrading the Mig-29UPG and not HAL
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

Austin wrote:
Singha wrote:Cheen meantime has got itself a Mi17 production line with a new powerful engine.
this will no doubt be cloned as a new Z-17 helicopter in due course.
When did Cheen get production line of Mi-17 ?They just import it
They have been license producing Mi 17s since 2008. I think at one point they talked about exporting Mi 17 produced in China to Pakistan.

https://sputniknews.com/russia/20080512107127123/
Austin
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

Sid wrote:
Austin wrote:
When did Cheen get production line of Mi-17 ?They just import it
They have been license producing Mi 17s since 2008. I think at one point they talked about exporting Mi 17 produced in China to Pakistan.

https://sputniknews.com/russia/20080512107127123/
Not really that is just assembling it and they recently imported new Mi-17 if they were manufacturing it they wont be doing it

https://sputniknews.com/business/201703 ... ers-china/

China manufactures Z-8 which is French SA 321 Super Frelon and Z-20 which is US Black Hawk look alike seems made from Civilian Variant used by China S-70C2
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

Austin, CKD assembly is what we do as well. From Su 30 to AJT. That is what we intend to do wit Ka228T as well. China will silently start to roll out Mi-17 from raw material sooner or later, but they have that line inplace.

That is what's called local production, screwdrivergiri by BRF definition.

it's not Russian fault, it's all on us.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

Sid wrote:Austin, CKD assembly is what we do as well. From Su 30 to AJT. That is what we intend to do wit Ka228T as well. China will silently start to roll out Mi-17 from raw material sooner or later, but they have that line inplace.

That is what's called local production, screwdrivergiri by BRF definition.

it's not Russian fault, it's all on us.
If they were doing CKD they wont be importing Mi-17 at all , Even transporting in parts for logistics and assembling it locally is CKD

China does not any any manufacturing plan for Mi-17 but has the same for French Chopper and has conveniently reverse engineered UH-60

Check the China thread on the amount of penetration it has into western system and by admission of their own intel
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

Austin wrote:
Sid wrote:Austin, CKD assembly is what we do as well. From Su 30 to AJT. That is what we intend to do wit Ka228T as well. China will silently start to roll out Mi-17 from raw material sooner or later, but they have that line inplace.

That is what's called local production, screwdrivergiri by BRF definition.

it's not Russian fault, it's all on us.
If they were doing CKD they wont be importing Mi-17 at all , Even transporting in parts for logistics and assembling it locally is CKD

China does not any any manufacturing plan for Mi-17 but has the same for French Chopper and has conveniently reverse engineered UH-60

Check the China thread on the amount of penetration it has into western system and by admission of their own intel
China produces J-11 to J-15 but still imported Su-35.

I already provided a link stating that do license manufacture Mi-17. I know they produce French Helis in bulk with "Z" designation, but they do use Mi-17 in numbers. Their manufacturing of Z series started the same way.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Folks this is the INDIAN military helo thread not talk about Chinese helos thread
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kartik »

srai wrote:Austin,

Here is the exact CAG report 2015. Check out from Chapter III: AAC (Page 49-67).

No where in it says those lines as written in that article you refer to:
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/c ... 006048.ece
...
They also state that " While the Cheetah and Chetaks are ageing platforms, in need of replacement, the low production rate of Dhruv’s, eight a year, by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL) is limiting their induction in large numbers. It is yet to induct the armed Dhruv variants two years after the unit has been raised. ...
...
The writer made that part up! But it is written in a way to make it look like it is in the CAG report, which it is not.
Wow ! :eek:
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by nachiket »

Singha wrote:the rape of our precious tax money continues under various guises.

atleast the apache has the fig leaf of being tfta and combat proven. the ka226T does not even have that.
I remember asking a question long back why we couldn't order additional Dhruv's to tide us over till the LUH was ready, especially since the MkIII version had proved the capability to fly to Siachen with a lot more payload than the Cheetah. One of the reasons I was told was that the Dhruv's were larger and twin engined and would cost more to operate and maintain than the Chetak and Cheetah.

Now the Ka-226 is also twin-engined, although the engines are less powerful than the Shakti. The complex twin-rotor system will cost more to maintain for sure. Add to that the usual spares and availability issues we face with everything Russian these days and the Ka-226 acquisition starts to feel more and more like a mistake we will rue a few years down the line.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

nachiket wrote:
Singha wrote:the rape of our precious tax money continues under various guises.

atleast the apache has the fig leaf of being tfta and combat proven. the ka226T does not even have that.
I remember asking a question long back why we couldn't order additional Dhruv's to tide us over till the LUH was ready, especially since the MkIII version had proved the capability to fly to Siachen with a lot more payload than the Cheetah. One of the reasons I was told was that the Dhruv's were larger and twin engined and would cost more to operate and maintain than the Chetak and Cheetah.
If you look at the entire north east on Google earth - you will find a large number of high altitude helipads serving those areas. Same is true for the Siachen region - but the pads are less easily visible. We have far far faaaaar many more helipads than the Chinese whom we claim on this forum are building helos in large numbers. I know that some of the helipads in higher reaches can only be served by Cheetahs and we need helicopters to take over the role of the Cheetahs soon. If the Ka 226 fits that role I am all for it because it will be a while before the LUH comes on stream and the induction of light helicopters has been delayed far too long
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Kakkaji »

^+1
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Aditya G »

HAL Dhruv got some competition from Airbus.

Image

Weight class and performance on paper are quite similar.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Neela »

Image
A Nationalist‏ @Peacef_Warrior
Myanmar Armed forces CinC General Min Anung Hlaing checking out our Light Combat Helicopter
11:31 AM - 7 Mar 2017
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srai »

Rudra w/ new wings?
Image

Compared with this
Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Cybaru »

Thats great news! Cross pollination at work!
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Sid »

Is that pic photoshopped?

That left wing looks weirdly bent.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Ankar »

looks like LCH wings photoshopped onto weaponized ALH
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by shiv »

Sid wrote:Is that pic photoshopped?

That left wing looks weirdly bent.
Good catch. Badly photoshopped - but we are now catching up with what the Chinese used to do back in the 1990s. So it is progress.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Philip »

Is it badly photoshopped or are the stub wings swept back or angled downwards (like MI-35s) for reducing drag.The struts are also missing.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by JTull »

In the bottom picture, what are those things in front of the engine air-inlets, with two round and square white things.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by raghuk »

Aditya G wrote:HAL Dhruv got some competition from Airbus.

Image

Weight class and performance on paper are quite similar.
No! Dhruv will always remain unchallenged.

Cheers!
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by srai »

JTull wrote:In the bottom picture, what are those things in front of the engine air-inlets, with two round and square white things.
SAAB - Integrated Defensive Aids Suite (IDAS)

Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Austin »

A Chetak helicopter of the Indian Air Force toppled while making an emergency landing during a training sortie from Bamrauli near Allahabad on Wednesday.

The chopper toppled when the pilots tried a forced landing after it developed a technical snag.
Image
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Post by Pratyush »

I hope no one was hurt in the accident.
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