Indian Military Helicopters

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Nov 2016 00:28

Tsarkar sahab, that is not true. You know that Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet) and has done rescue missions at 23,000 feet!!!

The transmission limits kicked in only at lower altitudes. Even then, Cheetals had better top speed, payload and range than the Cheetah because the engine itself was lighter and had better fuel efficient. However, at high altitudes the advantages were much more significant. At higher altitudes, the engine performance degrades drastically below the transmission limits and hence the performance was limited by available engine power alone. With bigger engines, Cheetals had higher payload carrying capability (90kg vs 50 kgs) at 20,000 feet compared to its predecessor. Pilots could fly in with more fuel, reaching further and higher or stay longer. It also provides significantly better control margins making operations safer (over and above the additional safety accorded by the FADEC engine).

Even the Nepalese love them.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Nov 2016 01:29

I have lost some of the tender files. About a year back, HAL had issued a tender for integration of 12.7 mm guns on LUH.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Nov 2016 00:44

भर्तृहरि ‏@WakeMe_Up
India will buy 39 additional Apache Gunships bringing the total to 61

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 12 Nov 2016 14:39

Indranil wrote:I have lost some of the tender files. About a year back, HAL had issued a tender for integration of 12.7 mm guns on LUH.

My laptop crashed recently and had to switch to a new one.
On the old laptop, I had downloaded a tender from HAL/Aero Engine division from Oct/2016 which had specifications for delivery of ingots for HP Turbine sections blades for either HTFE or HTSE.
Was reading open source material on the alloy ( it started with the letters CF and was either 5 or 6 letter name)
All I can recall now is the material was first used in ~1980s, max temperature it could handle was ~1100 C and research articles on the material it came as late as 2012 ( google prominently mentions the year in the search results)
I had the feeling at that time that this alloy was widely used even today.
I cannot recall much else.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2016 03:14

^^^ Yes, I recall that tender as well. However, I can't make qualitative assessment of the same as I am not well-read on materials used in engines. I know that the HTFE-25 and the HTSE-1200 are very practical solutions. They are not state-of-art in the materials, but they will get the work done pretty well. As you can imagine, I love these efforts. I am also waiting for Kalyani group to report what happened of their plans of building aero-engines in the country.

Meanwhile, HAL plans to build 33 LCH's per year from 2019-20 onwards.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Nov 2016 04:44

Indranil wrote: Meanwhile, HAL plans to build 33 LCH's per year from 2019-20 onwards.

Source?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2016 05:13

From Design & Development and Supply of Display Head Assembly

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 15 Nov 2016 18:30

Indranil wrote:From Design & Development and Supply of Display Head Assembly

Cool. There are 156 (27+33+33+33+30) SP planned as per the tender.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 Nov 2016 18:43

Saw the "crocodile" LCH flying over my house today.Lucky day

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 15 Nov 2016 18:47

Thanks.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Nov 2016 22:39

Indranil wrote:Tsarkar sahab, that is not true. You know that Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet) and has done rescue missions at 23,000 feet!!!

The transmission limits kicked in only at lower altitudes. Even then, Cheetals had better top speed, payload and range than the Cheetah because the engine itself was lighter and had better fuel efficient. However, at high altitudes the advantages were much more significant. At higher altitudes, the engine performance degrades drastically below the transmission limits and hence the performance was limited by available engine power alone. With bigger engines, Cheetals had higher payload carrying capability (90kg vs 50 kgs) at 20,000 feet compared to its predecessor. Pilots could fly in with more fuel, reaching further and higher or stay longer. It also provides significantly better control margins making operations safer (over and above the additional safety accorded by the FADEC engine).

Even the Nepalese love them.

Yes, which is why 30 Cheetal were ordered by IA for use in Siachen.

However more orders for use in plains/desert as gap fillers until LUH matured did not materialise.

HAL Barrackpore makes Cheetal & Chetak and is not running full capacity.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 15 Nov 2016 23:14

Agreed. As an aside, I am big fan of the Aloutte derivatives. I don't know if a better mosquito class can be designed. I mean what else could you add or delete from that heli? The simplicity of its design makes it such a timeless beauty. With upgrades, it can be built in 2030, and still be best in class.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 04 Dec 2016 20:55

Saurav Jha had twitted:
1. A second production line for the HAL Dhruv has been set up at Kanpur.
2. Current Production rate: Over 30 a year. Last year they delivered 35 or so.

My 2 questions l, if anyone can clarify please.
Is this 2nd production line is operational ?
and how many of them are remaining on orders ?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Dec 2016 17:47

India blames Ecuador for Dhruv losses
Gareth Jennings, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
06 December 2016

http://www.janes.com/article/66017/indi ... hruv-losse

The Indian government has blamed Ecuador for the high loss rate of its Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) Dhruv utility helicopters after the Latin American country decided to get rid of its remaining platforms.

Answering questions in parliament in late November, the Indian minister of state in the Ministry of Defence (MoD), Dr Subhash Bhamre, said that all of the four crashes of the Ecuadorian Air Force's (Fuerza Aérea Ecuatoriana: FAE) Dhruvs between October 2009 and January 2015 were found to be the fault, or to probably be the fault, of the Latin America operator, and were not down to any inherent design deficiency in the Indian-built aircraft.

Nick_S · Post by **Nick_S** » 09 Dec 2016 12:18

Indranil wrote: Cheetal holds the world altitude record (25,150 feet)

World Altitude record by Helicopter – 42,500Ft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_al ... Rotorcraft

tushar_m · Post by **tushar_m** » 09 Dec 2016 12:47

Its the same Cheetal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9ro ... _315B_Lama

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2016 19:39

From Twitter Siachen rescue

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 02 Jan 2017 10:29

HAL looking away from MBDA's Mistral-2 for the LCH & ALH-WSI

HAL To Arm Its LCH & ALH Platforms With A New Air-to-Air Missile

aame.in
HAL To Arm Its LCH & ALH Platforms With A New Air-to-Air Missile

Equipping the helicopters to engage in aerial warfighting.

Air to Air Missile For India's Light Combat Helicopter [LCH] & Advanced Light Helicopter [ALH]

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited [HAL], currently developing the Light Combat Helicopter [LCH], as well as the Advance Light Helicopter [ALH], plus its armed variant, the ALH-WSI plans to arm them with Air to Air Missiles [AAM]. Its Rotary Wing Research and Design Centre [RWR&DC] recently floated a Request For Information [RFI] seeking response from Global vendors for a suitable AAM solution.

20161231 - LCH - ALH-WSI - AAM - 03

The LCH & ALH-WSI are intended to be armed with AAM capable of hitting aerial targets at a distance of 5 km, utilising passive, fire-and-forget, heat-seeking, Infrared [IR] guidance system. Ideal for engaging other rotor-mounted adversaries, or UAV/UCAV. The chosen solid-fuel missile would need to demonstrate the ability to be targeted, by either the pilot or the Weapon System Operator [WSO], using the helicopter's Helmet-mounted Pointing System [HPS], as well as slewable Electro-Optical Sighting System [EOSS]. Each LCH & ALH-WSI is being developed to eventually hold 4 such missiles - 2 each under either of its 2 weapon stub-wing pylons. Depending on the mission requirements, the pylons can, in tandem, be mounted with land-attack Anti-Tank Guided Missiles [ATGM], unguided Rockets/bombs, or Anti-Radiation Missiles [ARM].

Interestingly, this means that, earlier reports, that HAL would be integrating the MBDA Mistral-2 with both the helicopters, may no longer hold true. This, despite both the helicopters being photographed, on various occasions, with the Mistral-2 on its pylons. The ALH has, in fact, test-fired the Mistral-2 ATAM during weapon trials. The missile's overall specifications, on paper, match that stated in the RFI's specification document. Incidentally, MBDA had announced giving a local Indian company the Work Order to develop a suitable missile launcher for mounting on the helicopters.

Three possible reasons pop up in the mind. First, the missile has not performed as desired during this year's trials. Suspect, given that the RFI was initially floated in April 2016, even before the LCH weapon trials were scheduled to begin, later, in July 2016. Second, the RFI states that the chosen missile system would need to be manufactured & maintained locally through the Transfer of Technology [ToT] route. A logical view given that, the Indian Army, Air Force & Navy would have a combined requirement of more than 300 heptrs of both types. Economy of scale, & all that. Possible disagreement may have risen on the nature & extent of ToT that the OEM is willing to part with. Thirdly, a negotiating tactics designed to strengthen India's hands. India, presently, has no on-going, indigenous, programme for developing such a short-range Air-to-Air Missile. Thus, it has to acquire one from the international market. Would be interesting to see which 1 it finally zeroes in on & why the change in preference away from the MBDA solution.

Godspeed

Also Read: Bolstering India's Coastal Defences - Navy On The Hunt For New Missiles

WSI - Weapon Systems Integration

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Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jan 2017 00:34

41 "early variant" Cheetahs and Chetaks to be replaced with new helicopters from the ALH "reserve stock”. This is a very pragmatic decision by IA since Ka-226s are nowhere in sight and the LUH will take at least 3-4 years to start serial production. Use the ALH for now and send them back to reserve/alternate role as the LUHs come online.

Cheetah, Chetak choppers to retire after string of crashes raise safety concerns DDMs stop this willful distortion of the headlines.

The army has firmed up plans to retire its oldest light-utility helicopters, pushing the panic button, as a string of recent crashes have blemished the safety record of the machines.

A South Block source said that the early variants of the Cheetah and Chetak fleet will be replaced by the locally-made advanced light helicopter (ALH), also known as Dhruv.

The source said the army’s aviation wing would replace 41 Cheetahs and Chetaks with new helicopters from the “ALH reserve stock” and the proposal would be sent for Cabinet committee on security approval soon.

The army and air force grounded their fleets of 280 light-utility helicopters last December, concerned if the machines were fit to fly, after three aviators were killed in a crash in West Bengal.

The Kamov-226T light utility choppers, to be built with Russia, are to replace these helicopters. However, the $1-billion programme is yet to kick off and the military may have to wait several years for the new machines. Russia will supply 60 helicopters in flyaway condition while the remaining 140 will be manufactured in India.

“The manufacturing line of the ALH is quite stable and the machines are coming out at a pretty steady rate. The Kamovs will take time to come,” a senior officer said. The army operates a mix of 150 Cheetahs and Chetaks. A new line of ALH has also been commissioned at Kanpur.

The design of these helicopters is more than 50 years old and their airworthiness is being questioned after a string of mishaps. Nine personnel were killed in six accidents involving these machines during 2012-15. The Cheetahs play a crucial role in supporting the army on the Siachen glacier, one of the world’s highest battlefields, flying at more than 20,000 feet.

A group of army wives met defence minister Manohar Parrikar in 2015, demanding the helicopters be retired. HAL has licence-produced 625 Cheetah and Chetak helicopters. It no longer builds them but is responsible for their maintenance and repair, a cause for concern.

CHEQUERED PAST
November 30, 2016: A Cheetah helicopter crashes at Sukna in West Bengal, killing three officers
March 11, 2016: A Cheetah helicopter crash lands in Hoshiarpur
February 3, 2015: Army chief Gen Bipin Rawat (then a Lt Gen) survives Cheetah crash in Dimapur
October2, 2014: Three army aviators killed in Cheetah crash near Bareilly
May 23, 2012: Pilot killed in Cheetah crash at Siachen
August 18, 2010: 3 officers die in Cheetah crash in Nagaland
The Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, lifeline of troops in high-altitude areas, including the Siachen glacier, are being cleared for flying in batches by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) after carrying out a comprehensive safety check.

Frankly, I can never get my head around HAL producing both the Ka-226 and the LUH. Now that it is quite sure that if they come, the deliveries would roughly start at the same time, it makes all the more sense to push Ka-226 into the "back-up" option. If LUH doesn't pan out the way it should (very unlikely but a firm deadline should be issued), then Ka-226s will be produced. Otherwise, HAL should be asked to just double the currently envisioned production rate of LUH. Give Russians other business where we can't design the machines on our own: more FGFAs, submarines, Klub missiles, regional airliner etc.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Jan 2017 00:49

Indranil wrote:41 "early variant" Cheetahs and Chetaks to be replaced with new helicopters from the ALH "reserve stock”. This is a very pragmatic decision by IA since Ka-226s are nowhere in sight and the LUH will take at least 3-4 years to start serial production. Use the ALH for now and send them back to reserve/alternate role as the LUHs come online.

Frankly, I can never get my head around HAL producing both the Ka-226 and the LUH. Now that it is quite sure that if they come, the deliveries would roughly start at the same time, it makes all the more sense to push Ka-226 into the "back-up" option. If LUH doesn't pan out the way it should (very unlikely but a firm deadline should be issued), then Ka-226s will be produced. Otherwise, HAL should be asked to just double the currently envisioned production rate of LUH. Give Russians other business where we can't design the machines on our own: more FGFAs, submarines, Klub missiles, regional airliner etc.

Great move. We have been asking for this for a while now! Glad the IA can use these birds at some of these locations!

If there is a bird that we want to collaborate with Russians, it would be Mil-17 or Mil-38 which is the follow on with western engines.

BTW what is reserve stock? New builds hanging around not being delivered yet? or specially aged for siachen like johhny walker blue?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jan 2017 01:04

That will kill the IMRH/NMRH.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Jan 2017 01:32

Where is that bird? Have they started on it? or will they wait for some tender to start doing it up.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Jan 2017 02:21

They had proceeded quite some distance till 2013. They got stuck a little bit in rolling in the requirements of all the three services into one helicopter. Thereafter, AFAIK the project has been on the back burner for a while. But now that Rudra and LCH have been certified, and LUH is in testing, they will probably get back to IMRH soon.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 10 Jan 2017 18:20

I think there are two different needs. IN will need something in the 9-10 class weight and IA will need something in 13-15 ton weight. So there maybe two projects here. IA could surely use the 9-10 class weight helicopter as well, but I doubt IN could put two off AH101 class beasts on its boats. It will need something closer to NH-90 category.

So perhaps there is an IMRH and IHRH category that HAL could push for instead of one type, which doesn't satisfy anyone or it could focus on IMRH and then co build the Mi-38 which is in the IHRH category with 7000 kg payload. The Mi-38 isn't finished, it could be a starting point for our development and customization, cutting down long lead time to prototype.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 11 Jan 2017 01:37

It is the other way around. IA/IAF requirements can be rolled in nicely into a bird which is around 10 Tons. IN requirements require a slightly larger heli, around 12 Tons. This is what Unnipillai sir said at Aero India 2013 in the Q&A session of his talk.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 11 Jan 2017 03:33

That number puts it between two different class of engines. RTM322s on lower side and T700 and PW127s on the other side. It will be interesting to see how HAL designs this bird. Hope they do it soon. Those Sea Kings need replacement. I hope HAL takes the design lead and hawks a few designs around.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 11 Jan 2017 22:39

Not sure if this link was posted. related to the discussion above...

HAL Medium Lift Helicopter
http://aermech.in/hal-medium-lift-helic ... ed-forces/

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 14 Jan 2017 01:13

Ramp up copter production, Defence Ministry tells HAL

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation ... 49695.html

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Jan 2017 01:18

ashish: as much as possible, please do not post entire articles from links. Title and link is sufficient. Copyright laws are fairly stringent now. If you want to make a point, quote a portion of the article. But nothing more.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 14 Jan 2017 01:21

Rakesh wrote:ashish: as much as possible, please do not post entire articles from links. Title and link is sufficient. Copyright laws are fairly stringent now. If you want to make a point, quote a portion of the article. But nothing more.

Roger that.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2017 23:40

HAL’s debutant stars at Aero India

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Feb 2017 23:43

I especially love its horizontal stabilizer. I was hoping and so something this for the LUH. The endplates on LUH's horizontal stabilizer look huge.

Atmavik · Post by **Atmavik** » 06 Feb 2017 23:49

Any news on the LCH? Last we heard was weapons integration as desired by the end user.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 06 Feb 2017 23:56

Main cabin dimensions of IMRH should be minimum that of Mi 17 (5.37 × 2.34 × 1.80 meter)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Feb 2017 08:10

Indranil wrote:HAL’s debutant stars at Aero India

I had taken photos of the first displayed "concept images" in either 2013 or 2011 Aero India. Can't recall. The agonizing part is that one hears nothing for years and years until Aero India resurfaces..

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 07 Feb 2017 09:53

I hope the Naval requirement is also kept in mind for the IMRH. IN will require 100+ of these, and a Mi17 size helicopter will probably be too big.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Feb 2017 10:00

shiv wrote:
Indranil wrote:HAL’s debutant stars at Aero India
I had taken photos of the first displayed "concept images" in either 2013 or 2011 Aero India. Can't recall. The agonizing part is that one hears nothing for years and years until Aero India resurfaces..

Well the IMRH was effectively dead for the last 5 years. Now with LCH winding up, Rudra/Dhruv attaining maturity and LUH in flight testing, the rotor craft division can spare some manpower to the project.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 07 Feb 2017 10:02

LCH winding up?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 07 Feb 2017 11:20

Design and testing winding up, if I understand what Thakur meant correctly.

If we can find out if the powerplant has been explored, then it will probably show movement soon.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Feb 2017 11:31

I agree Thakur_b. LCH, LUH and Rudra were prioritized over IMRH. Now that all those designs are either in production or flight-testing, the design team has shifted focus to the IMRH. HAL did send out tenders for purchasing MAIN ROTOR WHIRL TOWER OF 10-12T CAPACITY a few months back.