Indian Military Helicopters

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7734
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 12 Jun 2017 20:29

As per Twitter info, IA has already raised 1 x WSI Dhruv squadron in western India. And second squadron will be raised soon (3-4 months) in north-east. Location given is Likabali in upper Assam. A third Rudra squadron is also coming up under Northern Command soon.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4550
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 13 Jun 2017 00:30

rohitvats wrote:As per Twitter info, IA has already raised 1 x WSI Dhruv squadron in western India. And second squadron will be raised soon (3-4 months) in north-east. Location given is Likabali in upper Assam. A third Rudra squadron is also coming up under Northern Command soon.


Rohit, do you have any info on IA's experience with Rudra so far in the field, that can be shared here..?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2017 03:04

There is a twitter info by Livefist that LCH had cleared some trials

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1692
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 20 Jun 2017 06:22

ramana wrote:There is a twitter info by Livefist that LCH had cleared some trials


They have also cleared a 1000 flights without any major or minor incidents.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 20 Jun 2017 06:32

That's the one.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9066
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby brar_w » 26 Jun 2017 19:38

A glimpse of what upgrades are planned for the AH-64 E+ -

A high energy laser mounted on a helicopter shoots a target in groundbreaking test

A high energy laser mounted on an Apache AH-64 attack helicopter acquired and hit an unmanned target. The test was conducted by Raytheon and the U.S. Army Apache Program Management Office in collaboration with U.S. Special Operations Command at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico.

It was the first time a fully integrated laser system successfully shot a target from a rotary-wing aircraft over a wide variety of flight regimes, altitudes and air speeds, proving the feasibility of laser attack from Apache.

The system tracked and directed energy on a stationary target at a slant range of 1.4 kilometers. (Slant range is the line-of-sight distance between two points at different levels.)

The data collected from the test, including impact of vibration, dust and rotor downwash, will help shape future high-energy laser systems.

"Our goal is to pull the future forward," said Art Morrish, vice president of Advanced Concepts and Technologies for Raytheon Space and Airborne Systems. "This data collection shows we're on the right track."

For the test, Raytheon coupled a variant of the Multi-Spectral Targeting System, an advanced, electro-optical, infrared sensor, with a laser. The MTS provided targeting information, situational awareness and beam control.

Published: 06/22/2017


Image

Actual image of the hardware on the AH-64 -

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9531
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 25 Jul 2017 04:34

Rotary Wing Fleet: A Formidable Operational Asset
http://www.defstrat.com/rotary-wing-fle ... onal-asset

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 599
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VKumar » 30 Jul 2017 18:17

TOI reports India likely to buy 48 MI17V5 helicopters by year end.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gaur » 10 Aug 2017 10:09

India may not get its second lot of Apache attack helicopters anytime soon

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/second-lot-of-apaches-for-army-may-not-fly-in-anytime-soon/articleshow/59994786.cms

The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) meeting, which was to be held on July 31, on procurement of Apache helicopters was postponed and the subsequent defence secretary-led meeting didn't make much headway in procurement of 11 Apache helicopters for the army.


IAF sources explained, "The then government didn’t state future Apaches will be for the army. What they actually meant was that the army can procure as many Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) as they want, which are also attack helicopters like the Apaches."


The army wants 39 Apache helicopters. To start, it has demanded 11 such helicopters, which are primarily to be deployed against Pakistan.
Last edited by Gaur on 10 Aug 2017 10:11, edited 1 time in total.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gaur » 10 Aug 2017 10:11

Air Force is planning to deploy the two squadrons of the Apache helicopters in Pathankot in Punjab and Jorhat in Assam

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/india-deploy-apache-helicopter-border-firepower-iaf/1/1022643.html

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 10 Aug 2017 10:36

IAF/IA needs to invest those kind of money they buy Apache into LCH program since the program is ready and is designed for Indian needs , the early they learn that the better it would be for Indian MIC

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9531
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Aug 2017 16:44

Hey Austin....your wish may come true :)

India may not get its second lot of Apache attack helicopters anytime soon
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 994786.cms

IAF sources explained, "The then government didn’t state future Apaches will be for the army. What they actually meant was that the army can procure as many Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) as they want, which are also attack helicopters like the Apaches."

nash
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nash » 17 Aug 2017 17:20

Rakesh wrote:Hey Austin....your wish may come true :)

India may not get its second lot of Apache attack helicopters anytime soon
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 994786.cms

IAF sources explained, "The then government didn’t state future Apaches will be for the army. What they actually meant was that the army can procure as many Light Combat Helicopters (LCH) as they want, which are also attack helicopters like the Apaches."


Rajat Pandit‏ @rajatpTOI 6m6 minutes ago
More
Def Acquisitions Council clears 6 Apache attack helicopters for Army as follow-on to earlier Rs 13,952 crore deal for 22 choppers for IAF.


Seems like IA getting it.

Ankit Desai
BRFite
Posts: 541
Joined: 05 May 2006 21:28
Location: Gujarat

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Ankit Desai » 17 Aug 2017 17:40

Army is getting 6 apache. Vishnu reports likely to be for Eastern sector. Newly formed strike corp.

-Ankit

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 17 Aug 2017 17:57

Ankit Desai wrote:Army is getting 6 apache. Vishnu reports likely to be for Eastern sector. Newly formed strike corp.

-Ankit

Very good news indeed.
They should have exercised option for all 11. Chinese needling seem to have changed mods mind. I see blessings from the highest authority here.

Karthik S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5380
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 12:12

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karthik S » 17 Aug 2017 18:01

We need LCH more for Chinese, it was designed specifically for mountainous region.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 17 Aug 2017 18:45

6 helis for 4000+ cr is astonishing.

I told ppl long ago IA would make it a prestige issue and get apaches on its own regardless if the LCH + Rudra could meet the need locally.

the influx of hellfire missiles will also kill any residual chance of the helina.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3949
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 17 Aug 2017 19:12

That is like 100 million per chopper! And Pakis get khan choppers for peanuts.

Apple to orange comparision. equal to 2.5 LCAs or 5 propeller planes.

Truly gold plated! Dont know what operational advantage will IA get with 6 choppers.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2417
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 17 Aug 2017 19:22

arvin wrote:
Ankit Desai wrote:Army is getting 6 apache. Vishnu reports likely to be for Eastern sector. Newly formed strike corp.

-Ankit

Very good news indeed.
They should have exercised option for all 11. Chinese needling seem to have changed mods mind. I see blessings from the highest authority here.

IA continues to waste resources without increasing its sustained offensive ability.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 17 Aug 2017 20:07

Can Apache even fly over high mountains in Eastern Sector with useful load , You can get 40 Armed Dhruv or LCH for that cost which are designed for Hot and High Operation.

Looks more like H&D issue for the army just because IAF has it the good old sibling fight of childhood

I recollect that Apache were forbidden to fly due Kosovo operation because of mountainous terrian but thats just from memory

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 17 Aug 2017 21:20

Shambolic decision. I think MP might not have let this pass

arvin
BRFite
Posts: 368
Joined: 17 Aug 2016 21:26

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 17 Aug 2017 22:57

The follow-on option of 11 was kept for a future date when funds would be available. The option was there when MP was DM and order for 22 was signed in 2015. Someone had to exercise the option. I dont see any reason why Army should be denied such a fine fighting machine with features like longbow and its 8 km range mmw hellfire missile. Even if mmw NAG is fitted on LCH whenevr that may be what will it be guided with?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Austin » 17 Aug 2017 23:07

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/army-to- ... on-1738867

The army will buy six US built Apache attack helicopters within the next six months in a deal worth $655 million dollars or about Rs. 4,170 crore.


Thats $109 Million per Chopper .......Seriously , How much does an Armed Dhruv or LCH cost ?

A Su-30 cost $60 million and Tejas $35 million

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7984
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 17 Aug 2017 23:14

Ridiculous decision. This is what happens when you don't have a full time defence minister who knows what he's doing.

Bart S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 00:03

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bart S » 18 Aug 2017 01:21

nachiket wrote:Ridiculous decision. This is what happens when you don't have a full time defence minister who knows what he's doing.


Leave aside RM or lack of one, the very fact that this is what the Army prioritizes is a big enough problem by itself, one with far reaching implications.

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1692
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 18 Aug 2017 01:29

6 ?
Just six for that much money.
Is there something else in that package.
Infinite supply of spares till 2050 and infinite engines.

Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2097
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Picklu » 18 Aug 2017 01:31

Or Doklam issue needs a signal

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3286
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakkaji » 18 Aug 2017 01:45

I think the endgame here is that, once the Army starts operating the Apaches and builds its experience, eventually all the existing attacallowing it buy fancy foreign fighter aircraft.k helicopters (including the Apaches) will be transferred to the Army from the IAF. The IAF will be placated with some shiny imported fighters.

Would like to hear from deejay Saheb about the pros and cons of this move.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8214
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 18 Aug 2017 01:49

6? How does it move the needle one way or the other?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2017 02:30

It will if it's attached to an armored division.
In the 1980s during US-German exercises, 6 helicopters finished off a regiment.

I expect more Apaches to be attached to each of the Armored Division and rest as Strike corps reserve.

Reports said IA wants 39 Apaches. They did not give the plans for deployment.

THe IAF Apaches for a different role to open up the borders ala Gulf war.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2017 02:36

Read the NDTV report:

NEW DELHI:
HIGHLIGHTS
Government clears purchase of six Apache helicopters for army
They will be used on western front, expected to join service in 2021
Army wants to reduce dependency on Air Force for its missions
The army will buy six US built Apache attack helicopters within the next six months in a deal worth $655 million dollars or about Rs. 4,170 crore. The government today authorised the purchase, which will see the army operating its own attack helicopters for the first time and ending a long-standing monopoly of the air force.

NDTV has learnt that the army's Apaches will be deployed on the Western Front in support of tank formations in a role similar to that of Indian Air Force helicopters. The first Apaches are expected to enter service with the army in 2021.

In 2015, India bought 22 Apache and 15 heavy-lift Chinook helicopters from Boeing for $3 billion. The new deal includes associated equipment, spares, training, weapons and ammunition.


The Indian Army can also acquire 95 of the Indian-built LCH or Light Combat Helicopters.
According to Boeing, the AH-64 Apache, cleared today for the army, "is the world's most advanced multi-role combat helicopter and is used by the US Army and a growing number of international defence forces."


The helicopters the army has ordered are armed with anti-tank missiles, rockets and a 30 mm gun. The AH-64E is capable of destroying tanks or hardened structures which it detects through several sensors which enable the chopper to be used both during the day and night in any weather condition.

For years, the army has been trying to convince the Defence Ministry that its needs its own integral attack helicopters so that it doesn't need to call in the Indian Air Force for its operations. Though army pilots have been deputed to Air Force Mi-35 attack helicopter squadrons of the Indian Air Force, this is the first time that the army has got the go-ahead to acquire its own state-of-the art attack choppers.

Rudra helicopter

The army has already made operational its first squadron of Rudra helicopters.

In addition to the Apache, the Indian Army is in the process of significantly expanding its fleet of armed helicopters, though these are not as heavily armed as the Apache. Ninety-five of these Light Combat Helicopters or LCH, built indigenously, can be acquired by the army, the government has said. But the army will first evaluate five of them while under development before deciding whether to get more. The LCH is designed for high-altitude areas and will be deployed on the China front.

Before the arrival of the Apache and the LCH, the army has already made operational its first squadron of Rudra helicopters, a weaponised variant of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) called the Dhruv. The first squadron of Rudra choppers has been made operational in a Holding Corps, a defensive formation in the Western sector facing Pakistan.

So the arming is in support of a strategy. And Cabinet approves that.

Srutayus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 92
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 05:53

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Srutayus » 18 Aug 2017 02:38

Th US Army ordered 35 AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters for just $591.2 million in a contract to Boeing on February 20, 2015
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/02/army-attack-helicopters.html

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3526
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Aug 2017 02:52

Srutayus wrote:Th US Army ordered 35 AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters for just $591.2 million in a contract to Boeing on February 20, 2015
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/02/army-attack-helicopters.html

While there is no explicit mention of high cost, you are surely curious.

Let me take my Noobshot,
While the details are still not out, my usual suspects of high prices are (not in any order)
1. Availability rates through supplies of spares and maintenance depots
2. Trainers/Simulators
3. Any ToT or Offsets (not 100% sure if offsets lead to cost escalation)
4. Accelerated delivery (could be possible reason )
5. Configuration and customization (Radar, missiles, etc etc, any upgrades over and above what was ordered in 2015)

Why this does not apply to US?
1. US Can live with low rates considering the large no.s already present, with six one in repair itself brings it down to 83%
2. Should be already present
3. Not applicable
4. Not applicable
5. Dont know, but india not being member of alphabet treaties (CISMOA) is likely to add to costs in communication equipment
Gurus like Deejay can provide accurate details

Srutayus
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 92
Joined: 29 Aug 2016 05:53

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Srutayus » 18 Aug 2017 02:57

Maintenance depots etc. would have been included in the larger order of 22. There are facilities being established at 2 airbases.
But if you want to add to your list of "other" costs, not including a hefty premium: The costs accrued by the US inspection teams that will periodically inspect the systems to ensure that the are not used in ways that are not approved.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3949
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 18 Aug 2017 03:18

With 6, army for practical purpose is dependent on IAF to use these chopper. Maintenance and operationly.

Will all the big talk about jointness and theatre command why should it matter if IAF or IA has the chopper?

If they wanted to fight over attack helicopter, they could have done it with lch. At least it would have cheaper.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3526
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Aug 2017 03:18

Srutayus wrote:Maintenance depots etc. would have been included in the larger order of 22. There are facilities being established at 2 airbases.
But if you want to add to your list of "other" costs, not including a hefty premium: The costs accrued by the US inspection teams that will periodically inspect the systems to ensure that the are not used in ways that are not approved.

1. Thanks for pointing out the base depot
2. Dont remember if it was for Apache or P8i the inspection drama was done away with
3. Even if its there, the scale of cost escalation is quite high as the no.s pointed out by you. WHile this would contribute but not this much, unless of course they have booked a floor of sheraton in delhi for their staffs (pun not intended at you, but what could be missing)

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3526
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 18 Aug 2017 03:19

nam wrote:With 6, army for practical purpose is dependent on IAF to use these chopper. Maintenance and operationly.

Will all the big talk about jointness and theatre command why should it matter if IAF or IA has the chopper?

If they wanted to fight over attack helicopter, they could have done it with lch. At least it would have cheaper.

I suspect army will use a mix of Apache, LCH and Rudra over time to do the job. These would not go alone, more like top cover through Su-30 for LCAs

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3949
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 18 Aug 2017 03:45

At 100 mil cost of each Apache, we could get 5 lch or even more.

Would 1 Apache carry more load than 5 lch? Army already has ecosystem for alh, which means they didn't have to pay for setting up another circus in the logistics chain. Just for 6.

Let IAF pay from its budget for Apaches. Army can use it like it does now..

What advantage will ah64 will have over 5 lch is beyond me. And its not like they will be getting them tomorrow.will be getting them in 2021. By that time lch will in full rate production.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3949
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 18 Aug 2017 03:58

Even more peculiar: we could had 10 additional SU30 dedicated for CAS for that money. Like we marine jags.

Eastern or western front. Sea level or 20000 feet.no execuses

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9531
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 05:33

I googled for the IAF Apache deal, but the cost for the 2015 Boeing deal for 22 Apaches have been clubbed with the 15 Chinooks. And depending on source, it varies from $2.5 to $3 billion USD.

India clears purchase of 15 Chinooks and 22 Apache helicopters from US
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 80655.html

India, US sign deals for 22 Apache choppers, 15 Chinook copters
http://www.rediff.com/news/report/defen ... 150928.htm

India, US sign $3 billion deal for purchase of 15 Chinook heavylift and 22 Apache attack helicopters
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... 142634.cms

Bania Mathematics here....so please do not shoot me. Just a reference point on cost. Because the $3 billion deal I am sure includes spares, weapons, simulators, tools, maintenance depots, etc.

$3 Billion / 37 birds (22 + 15) = $81+ million per helo
$2.5 Billion / 37 birds = $67+ million per helo

So this $100+ million per helo **could** suggest that the Army is setting up its own maintenance depots & simulators and buying its own set of spares & tools + weapons. And if that is the case, it could have saved a significant chunk by sharing these facilities with the air force. But the air force and the army are apparently not on the same page on this issue.

I always wondered why the IAF needed attack helicopters and I even asked that on BRF. The logic did not make sense, until a BRFite pointed out that the Apache is very good at shooting down drones.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: souravB and 40 guests