Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby fanne » 18 Aug 2017 05:39

or other stuff are getting passed. Maybe enough hellfire for rudras?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 05:42

One can only guess, until the final details of the Army deal are released to the media. If the cost of the Army Apaches are true, then the Army and the Air Force will be operating & maintaining their own Apaches. And that comes with a significant cost. Follow-on Apaches for the Army - which is 100% guranteeed now - will not be at $100+ million per helo. It will be cheaper. This astronomical cost that has been reported is for all the support equipment that is coming with the chopper.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 06:04

Srutayus wrote:Th US Army ordered 35 AH-64E Apache Guardian attack helicopters for just $591.2 million in a contract to Boeing on February 20, 2015
http://www.militaryaerospace.com/articles/2015/02/army-attack-helicopters.html

For an Army that has been operating Apaches since the 1980s and has "established" maintenance depots, simulators, weapons, tools, qualified pilots...I can go on. The above is just quoting a cost without taking anything else into consideration. It does not work that way at all.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sudeepj » 18 Aug 2017 06:15

Rakesh wrote:I always wondered why the IAF needed attack helicopters and I even asked that on BRF. The logic did not make sense, until a BRFite pointed out that the Apache is very good at shooting down drones.


Apparently, the first shots in the Iraq war were fired by Apaches in a 'kick down the door' mode against radar sites.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2017 06:19

sudeepj wrote:Apparently, the first shots in the Iraq war were fired by Apaches in a 'kick down the door' mode against radar sites.

And there is another reason. I am not being sarcastic. Just wondering why. Thanks sudeep.

Army gets its first attack helicopters, 6 Apaches cleared for Rs 4,168 crore
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/08/a ... pters.html

While the IAF will use its 22 Apaches for “air defence operations”, to take out enemy radars and command and control centres; the army’s Apaches would destroy enemy tanks and armoured vehicles on the mechanized battlefield.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 18 Aug 2017 06:22

Kakkaji wrote:I think the endgame here is that, once the Army starts operating the Apaches and builds its experience, eventually all the existing attacallowing it buy fancy foreign fighter aircraft.k helicopters (including the Apaches) will be transferred to the Army from the IAF. The IAF will be placated with some shiny imported fighters.

Would like to hear from deejay Saheb about the pros and cons of this move.

Doc - this post reminds me of patients who say "After you remove the gall bladder, digestion will be taken over by the kidneys and the gut can simply be given chocolates without worry"

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2017 09:08

question is will IAF share its training, BRD and other infra with IA? the cost seems to indicate IA will establish its own parallel infra in new bases and obviously a paltry 6 will not justify such costs, more will have come perhaps around 50 is the final plan.

the IAF will *never* hand over its shiny 22 apaches due from next year to anyone. that war is over and done.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 09:52

Kakkaji wrote:I think the endgame here is that, once the Army starts operating the Apaches and builds its experience, eventually all the existing attacallowing it buy fancy foreign fighter aircraft.k helicopters (including the Apaches) will be transferred to the Army from the IAF. The IAF will be placated with some shiny imported fighters.

Would like to hear from deejay Saheb about the pros and cons of this move.


My views... ha ha ha.

Actually, I am surprised Col Shukla knows so little.

The IAF Apaches will be embedded with IA. They will be jointly manned and operated like the Mi35s. There are specific roles. MPDR bursting is just one of those.

This is just first 06 for IA and if my information is right, a full complement of 39 Apaches for IA is coming. Also, it has no bearing on the LCH deal. LCH will come and IA will be the prime customer.

I am surprised that HAL is starting with IAF for LCH. It should be IA, IMO.

As far as, IA taking over helicopters and other assets - so be it. It is upto the GOI/ civilian authorities to take a call. It does not make any difference on ground what colour is the uniform of the crew. The utilisation, SOPs and roles will remain same.

Actually, this line of thinking is very stupid but then it has been explained before and there is no point going there again. People really have no clue, do they?
Last edited by deejay on 18 Aug 2017 10:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Aug 2017 10:04

deejay wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:I think the endgame here is that, once the Army starts operating the Apaches and builds its experience, eventually all the existing attacallowing it buy fancy foreign fighter aircraft.k helicopters (including the Apaches) will be transferred to the Army from the IAF. The IAF will be placated with some shiny imported fighters.

Would like to hear from deejay Saheb about the pros and cons of this move.


My views... ha ha ha.

Actually, I am surprised Col Shukla knows so little.

The IAF Apaches are embedded with IA. They are jointly manned and operated. There are specific roles. MPDR bursting is just one of those.

This is just first 06 for IA and if my information is right, a full complement of 39 Apaches for IA is coming. Also, it has no bearing on the LCH deal. LCH will come and IA will be the prime customer.

I am surprised that HAL is starting with IAF for LCH. It should be IA, IMO.

As far as, IA taking over helicopters and other assets - so be it. It is upto the GOI/ civilian authorities to take a call. It does not make any difference on ground what colour is the uniform of the crew. The utilisation, SOPs and roles will remain same.

Actually, this line of thinking is very stupid but then it has been explained before and there is no point going there again. People really have no clue, do they?


well said

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 10:06

Singha wrote:question is will IAF share its training, BRD and other infra with IA? the cost seems to indicate IA will establish its own parallel infra in new bases and obviously a paltry 6 will not justify such costs, more will have come perhaps around 50 is the final plan.

the IAF will *never* hand over its shiny 22 apaches due from next year to anyone. that war is over and done.


Ha Ha ha ... Singha Ji, these are national assets. No ones baap has bapauti on these. Please think it through.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 10:08

ks_sachin wrote:
deejay wrote:
My views... ha ha ha.

Actually, I am surprised Col Shukla knows so little.

The IAF Apaches are will be embedded with IA. They are will be jointly manned and operated like the Mi 35s. There are specific roles. MPDR bursting is just one of those.

This is just first 06 for IA and if my information is right, a full complement of 39 Apaches for IA is coming. Also, it has no bearing on the LCH deal. LCH will come and IA will be the prime customer.

I am surprised that HAL is starting with IAF for LCH. It should be IA, IMO.

As far as, IA taking over helicopters and other assets - so be it. It is upto the GOI/ civilian authorities to take a call. It does not make any difference on ground what colour is the uniform of the crew. The utilisation, SOPs and roles will remain same.

Actually, this line of thinking is very stupid but then it has been explained before and there is no point going there again. People really have no clue, do they?


well said


Sorry corrected some errors. Correcting the original post too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby manjgu » 18 Aug 2017 10:11

deejay .. so true... 1) in one of the programs IIRC the pilots/ IAf officers were wearing army style uniforms... and the officer said we are closely embedded with the army and develop the fighting doctrines together..2) Will the apaches be of any use against the Hans?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 10:59

^^^1) IAF Mi 35 Sqns are embeded and part of IA formations. All IAF personnel also wear IA formation signs. Effectively, they are with the Army.
2) Yes. Definitely in NE across Arunachal. I am not sure or aware of Apache landing performances beyond 3 Kms so not sure how effective it will be in Laddakh, Aksai Hind or Sikkim.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 18 Aug 2017 10:59

Deejay,

Your views on operational roles that an Apache can undertake that cannot be undertaken by say two LCHs?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 18 Aug 2017 11:07

Good that the IA is finally getting control over the attack helos.The IAF has a perverted dog-in-the-manger attitude towards it.Using Apaches for "defensive" ops to take out enemy radars,etc.Then why are they wanting PGMs and Rafales for the same purpose?!

However,at around 500cr/Apache,it is an insane price top pay for. Pl compare it with armed MI-17Vs or even Russian and other European attack birds. They come far cheaper.Helos are also most vulnerable to MANPADS and anti-air arty.SAMs. We saw this at Kargil and the Aghan War for years has seen many helo losses due to ground fire. The IA instead should've also demanded a number of light attack /counter insurgency aircraft,which would've made an even greater capability acquisition to deal with the ground war,the IAF being reluctant and in general turning up its nose at CS/GA.In almost every current conflict,the greatest contribution to the air war is being made by the close support aircraft like A-10s,SU_25s,and legacy fighter-bombers which have a secondary role in such a task.In all our wars with Pak,barring Kargil,airpower played a decisive role in conjunction with ground troops.It routed enemy tanks at Longewala,which was perhaps the decisive battle in '65.As mentioned before.most of our air losses in the wars were due to ground fire,which has tremendously improved worldwide with newer anti-air arty,SAMs and MANPADs. Even RPGs have been used to down attack helos.

Therefore,the need for large numbers of attack helos for the IA can only be resolved by the foll. methods:
1.Arming utility helos as many as poss.Armed Dhruvs,MI-17Vs,LUHs,and upgrading the legacy MI-35s,as one task.

2.Building as many LCHs which are dedicated attack helos is as urgent and critical to the IA as the LCA is to the IAF. With around 200 needed over the years,we should have an annual prod. rate of at least 24-36,which may require two lines of production.Here,one can even start one line in the pvt. sector,say Tatas for instance who've already been making helo components for Boeing (Chinook) ,etc.

3.Acquisitions form abroad.Apaches are expensive.We'll barely be able to afford the 24 (IAF)+ 6 (IA) and maybe another 6 later on.
There is no harm in looking for other attack helos,cheaper ,which could make up numbers and complement our LCHs as well. Right now we urgently need at least another 40-50 attack helos asap to counter the Chinese. Even extra upgraded legacy MI-35s if available would help in the current circumstances.

In addition the requirement of close support aircraft remains.These types of aircraft carry little glamour about them,but heavily armoured "flying tanks" are still proving their worth in Syria,and elsewhere in the Mid-East and would do exceedingly well in the subcontinent.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 11:17

Indranil wrote:Deejay,

Your views on operational roles that an Apache can undertake that cannot be undertaken by say two LCHs?


I am sorry, though I know of use cases because I have had the opportunity of practice in somewhat similar equation but I am not sure discussing tactics here is advisable.

Instead there are advantages of the Longbow (which I hope comes), then there is the size of the force package that increasing number of escorts change and other issues which get affected for actual warfare.

The LCH weapons carriage, range, SD and sustained suppression power vs those of Apache or Mi 35s should be good indicators on ability and utility. If I am reading this correctly, all such assets are getting embedded with the strike corps. How does it impact IBGs of Cold Start is also a good question to examine.

Finally, the LCH may be lighter but within it means it can take on all operational roles that an Apache can, IMO. I do not think it is a role gap that Apache is filling.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 18 Aug 2017 11:24

deejay wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:I think the endgame here is that, once the Army starts operating the Apaches and builds its experience, eventually all the existing attacallowing it buy fancy foreign fighter aircraft.k helicopters (including the Apaches) will be transferred to the Army from the IAF. The IAF will be placated with some shiny imported fighters.

Would like to hear from deejay Saheb about the pros and cons of this move.


My views... ha ha ha.

Actually, I am surprised Col Shukla knows so little.

The IAF Apaches will be embedded with IA. They will be jointly manned and operated like the Mi35s. There are specific roles. MPDR bursting is just one of those.

This is just first 06 for IA and if my information is right, a full complement of 39 Apaches for IA is coming. Also, it has no bearing on the LCH deal. LCH will come and IA will be the prime customer.

I am surprised that HAL is starting with IAF for LCH. It should be IA, IMO.

As far as, IA taking over helicopters and other assets - so be it. It is upto the GOI/ civilian authorities to take a call. It does not make any difference on ground what colour is the uniform of the crew. The utilisation, SOPs and roles will remain same.

Actually, this line of thinking is very stupid but then it has been explained before and there is no point going there again. People really have no clue, do they?


Like IR, I also have the same Q that what USP Apache exactly beings on the table vis-à-vis LCH...? I have so far seen two reasons given out but not from any authoritative sources nor they seem very convincing hence I am still looking - one is that IA/IAF are looking for some heavy gunship experience. Another is Longbow, which would be used as master control and used to que the other helis such as LCH. So more like F35ish nodal role for Apaches in our formations. But then why can't we make LCH do these roles in time to come..??

As you pointed out, I also feel that it doesn't matter who owns the Helis since they are finally gonna be used at IA's discretion mostly. Only thing is duplication should be avoided to save on our already thinly spread budget. And it should not be made as organisational pride/ego issue by anyone.

I didn't really get the comment on how HAL chose IAF first..? You mean for the first production batch..? They have 10 on order from IAF and 5 for IA, IIRC. and perhaps IAF has given commitment earlier than the IA, hence the preference for initial 5 LSP that HAL started building even before the order is formally placed..?? Does HAL really have a choice here..? As such you must be aware already that all three AFs have their offices set up in HAL and they work with HAL on their respective versions. So I suppose the work must be going on in parallel anyway right..?


PS: Saw your new post.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 18 Aug 2017 12:07

russis have brought a bunch of heavily upgraded Mi8 to syria. they seem well armed and well protected with various devices.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 18 Aug 2017 12:20

Singha wrote:russis have brought a bunch of heavily upgraded Mi8 to syria. they seem well armed and well protected with various devices.


The Mi 8 family was always combat capable. We have used them in this role in Kargil, eventually losing a Mi 17. The original Mi8 and then Mi 17 could carry 192, 57 mm rockets. The Mi 17 1Vs and V5s carry 80 mm rockets in lesser nos. They can be fitted with front guns, grenade launchers and also have CMDS. The newer Mi 17V5s can be configured with better avionics suite.

The bulk of MPDR bursting roles and SF ops are Mi 8/17XXX based with combat escorts from same family. "Dhruvs are also increasingly being used for these roles. Strike Corps operations alone have the Mi 35s etc for action as of now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohankumaon » 18 Aug 2017 15:23

Pertinent to the ongoing discussion, excerpts from Vivek Ahuja earlier analysis -

http://thebetacoefficient.blogspot.de/2 ... egant.html

"Conclusions:

The difference between the LCH and Apache at high altitudes is going to be in maneuverability. The LCH will turn out to be more agile and have higher performance in general because it is custom-designed to fight at higher altitudes. The Apache, on the other hand, is a brute-force machine, matching the LCH up to the Himalayas for payload, but losing out in agility. The Apache will be less agile than the LCH but will take more hits and keep flying. Where the LCH will look to evade and survive, the Apache will turn to its armor."

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby brar_w » 18 Aug 2017 20:23

Rakesh wrote:I googled for the IAF Apache deal, but the cost for the 2015 Boeing deal for 22 Apaches have been clubbed with the 15 Chinooks. And depending on source, it varies from $2.5 to $3 billion USD.



The deal was a hybrid..US FMS for systems, weapons and USG support, logistics and training and Boeing Defense for the aircraft and long term OEM support, 30% offset obligations, any customization requests etc...The DSCA Announcement (not a contract but just an announcement) dates back a long time and can be seen HERE. If I recall correctly, the deal took a number of price extensions from Boeing before it was finalized (iirc in 2015).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 18 Aug 2017 21:11

nam wrote:At 100 mil cost of each Apache, we could get 5 lch or even more.

Would 1 Apache carry more load than 5 lch? Army already has ecosystem for alh, which means they didn't have to pay for setting up another circus in the logistics chain. Just for 6.

Let IAF pay from its budget for Apaches. Army can use it like it does now..

What advantage will ah64 will have over 5 lch is beyond me. And its not like they will be getting them tomorrow.will be getting them in 2021. By that time lch will in full rate production.


The IA requires 39 Apaches and will get them as they are for Western and South Western Command.
They will also get the LCHs for Eastern Command as it excels at altitude.
The first ALHs are already there with Holding Corps.

Folks GOI is serious.

Read deejay's comments and think about what he is trying to say.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 18 Aug 2017 21:27

The 39 apache is also to defend against china on the western front. For what purpose is China building a new refinery in pakistan.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 18 Aug 2017 22:27

arvin wrote:The 39 apache is also to defend against china on the western front. For what purpose is China building a new refinery in pakistan.

Sorry to go OT - but this business of "fighting China on the western front" is a new dhoti shiver that I keep seeing on BRF. This particular reason for crapping in our langotis needs further discussion because it is just needless diarrhoea. Fighting a war for Pakistan is not like driving your Lamborghini near Indian border and revving up the engines. So I think we need to quite referring to this, or post a query in the newbie thread for a separate discussion.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 18 Aug 2017 22:52

deejay wrote:
Indranil wrote:Deejay,

Your views on operational roles that an Apache can undertake that cannot be undertaken by say two LCHs?


I am sorry, though I know of use cases because I have had the opportunity of practice in somewhat similar equation but I am not sure discussing tactics here is advisable.

I really appreciate your discretion.

In a similar vein, I actually wish HAL develops a Dhruv/LCH variant optimized for the lower altitudes. I mean faster top speed, higher payload.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 21 Aug 2017 14:50

Dated,but still very true! Helos are slow and vulnerable.In the battlefields of today,the increase and proliferation of anti-air fire from small arms,even RPGs,to AA,MANPADS and SR SAMs,has made survival a difficult job for even the best armoured attack helos. Analysis of India's air losses in our conflicts showed that around 60%+ was due to ground fire. The Apaches are excellent attack helos,esp. at night,but cost a bob and are vulnerable from stats. from the US's recent conflicts. There are better cost-effective alternatives costing much less both from Europe and Russia. Not forgetting our very own LCH which can and should be built in the hundreds giving us both numbers and capabilities and will allow us to absorb heavy losses which a handful of Apaches will not. The IA is to get a pathetic amt. of just 6 Apaches.Imagine them sent out on their first mission like the US did in Afghanistan. They were so shot up that sev. were deemed unrepairable,in another word "lost".

The 24 +6 Apaches in the Indian military may veryw ell end up in the IAF Museum at BLR (old) Airport rd.!

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_ ... opper.html
Chop the Chopper
The Army's Apache attack-helicopter had a bad war.

By Fred Kaplan
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is gearing up for his next war—not with the Syrians or the North Koreans but with the hidebound generals of the U.S. Army. These are the generals who criticized Rumsfeld's battle plan while Gulf War II was still raging and who beat back his efforts, over the past few years, to "transform" the Army into a lighter, lither fighting force. With Rumsfeld's star rising and the generals' tarnished, he can be expected to mount a new offensive on their bureaucratic turf at the first opportunity.

He might want to start by junking the Army's attack helicopter. The current version, the AH-64D Apache Longbow, is in many ways a vast improvement over earlier models, but it is still too dangerous to the pilots who fly it and not dangerous enough to the enemy it's designed to attack.

Fred Kaplan is the author of Dark Territory: The Secret History of Cyber War.

The U.S. Army's only disastrous operation in Gulf War II (at least the only one we know about) took place on March 24, when 33 Apache helicopters were ordered to move out ahead of the 3rd Infantry Division and to attack an Iraqi Republican Guard regiment in the suburbs of Karbala. Meeting heavy fire from small arms and shoulder-mounted rocket-propelled grenades, the Apaches flew back to base, 30 of them shot up, several disablingly so. One helicopter was shot down in the encounter, and its two crewmen were taken prisoner.

After that incident, Apaches were used more cautiously—on reconnaissance missions or for firing at small groups of armored vehicles. Rarely if ever did they penetrate far beyond the front line of battle, out in front of U.S. ground troops or without the escort of fixed-wing aircraft flying far overhead.

Shortly afterward, when a speech by Saddam Hussein was broadcast over Iraqi television, some armchair commentators observed that the speech was probably live, or at least very recent, because he referred to the downing of an Apache. In fact, that proved nothing. If one thing could have been predicted before the war started, it was that an Apache would be shot down.

Last year, during the Afghanistan war, seven Apaches were flown in to attack Taliban fighters as part of Operation Anaconda. They all got shot up, again by RPGs and machine-gun fire. None crashed, but five were so damaged they were declared "non-mission-capable"—in other words, unable to go back into combat without extensive repair—after the first day. :rotfl:

In the 1999 air war over Kosovo, 24 Apache helicopters were transported to the allied base in Albania. Their arrival was anticipated by many officers and analysts as a turning point in the war. Yet, within days, two choppers crashed during training exercises. Commanders decided not to send any of them into battle; the risk of losing them to Serbian surface-to-air missiles was considered too great. :rotfl:

Attack helicopters have always been troublesome. The U.S. Army lost over 5,000 helicopters in the Vietnam War. (Nor is this a uniquely American problem: The Soviets lost hundreds of Hind helicopters to mujahideen firing shoulder-launched Stinger missiles during their Afghan venture.)

This sorry chronicle raises the question: Why did the Army build helicopters in the first place?

It all goes back to the end of World War II, when the Air Force became an independent service of the armed forces. (Before and during the war, air forces were a branch of the Army.) In its first few years of independence, the Air Force became involved in tumultuous budget battles with the other services. Finally, in April 1948, Secretary of Defense James Forrestal called a meeting with the service chiefs in Key West, Fla., where they divvied up "roles and missions." The emerging document was called the Key West Agreement. An informal understanding that grew out of the accord was that the Air Force (and, to an extent, the Navy) would have a monopoly on fixed-wing combat planes.

The Key West Agreement specified that one mission of the Air Force would be close air support for Army troops on the battlefield. However, it soon became clear that the Air Force generals—enamored of the A-bomb and then the H-bomb—had no interest in this task. To their minds, the next war would be a nuclear war. Armies would play no serious role, so why divert airplanes to giving them cover?

The Army realized it would have to provide its own air support. Blocked from building its own fixed-wing planes, it built rotary-wing planes (or, in civilian parlance, helicopters). And it built thousands of them.

During the Vietnam War, the Air Force's reluctance—at times refusal—to provide close air support became a grave problem. Congressional hearings were held on the lack of any airplane dedicated to that mission. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara briefly brought a wing of the Navy's late-'40s A-1 fighter bombers out of mothballs to take up some of the slack.

Finally, the Army got bold and began research and development on a hybrid aircraft, a bizarre-looking fixed-wing helicopter called the Cheyenne.

McNamara killed the Cheyenne before it got off the ground, but meanwhile, an Air Force general named Richard Yudkin was furious about the Army's maneuver. He saw it as an infringement of the Key West Agreement and a raid on the Air Force's share of the budget. In response, he initiated the Air Force's very first dedicated close-air-support attack plane called the A-X, which grew into the A-10.

Yudkin was a bit of a rebel within the Air Force. The establishment generals (who, by the early '70s, were still dominated by the nuclear-bomber crowd) hated the idea of the A-X for the same reason they hated the close-air-support mission: It had nothing to do with the Air Force's bigger, more glamorous roles. Yudkin couldn't even get the Air Force R & D directorate to work on the project, so he set up his own staff to do it.

The A-10 rolled onto the tarmac in 1976. The brass still hated the thing.
It survived only because of pork-barrel politics—it was built by Fairchild Industries in Bethpage, Long Island, home district of Rep. Joseph Addabbo, who was chairman of the House appropriations' defense subcommittee. The plan was to build 850 of the planes. By 1986, when Addabbo died, Fairchild had built just 627, and the program came to a crashing halt. No more A-10s were ordered, and 197 of those in existence were transferred to the Air National Guard and allowed to rot.

When the first Gulf War was being planned in 1990, Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf, the chief of U.S. Central Command, had to fight the Air Force to send over a mere 174 A-10s for his use. Yet in the course of the war, those A-10s knocked out roughly half of the 1,700 Iraqi tanks that were destroyed from the air, as well as several hundred armored personnel carriers and self-propelled artillery guns. They also conducted search and rescue operations, blew up roads and bridges, and hunted for Scuds. :mrgreen:

Even the Air Force brass had to admit the planes had done a good job, and they kept them in the fleet. (They had planned on replacing all of them with modified F-16s.) Though the statistics aren't yet in, the A-10s seemed to do well in Gulf War II, especially now that the Army, Air Force, and Marines are more inclined to coordinate their battle plans.

The A-10 is an unsightly, lumbering beast of a plane. (It's commonly called the Warthog.) It flies low and slow, but its cockpit is made of titanium; it can be shot up very badly, all over, and still not crash. It was the only plane that the Desert Storm air commanders dared fly at under 15,000 feet. Its GAU-8 gun can fire 3,900 rounds of 30 mm armor-piercing ammo per minute. It can also fire Maverick air-to-ground missiles.

So here's a suggestion for Donald Rumsfeld: Deep-six the Apache, and restart the A-10.

PS:As I mentioned before,every utility helo in IA/IAF service should possess some attack capability,esp. the med. sized helos like MI-17s,and armed ALH/Dhruvs.However,I feel that the IA have lost a great opportunity in not demanding a dedicated COIN/light attack aircraft fopr the same purpose. Look at how the A-10 has served the US.Even now,well over a decade since this article was written (14 yrs.),it is still going to serve for many more years.The Sov./Ru equiv. the SU-25 has also done remarkably well in the Syrian conflict. If only the IAF was not so obsessed with the flying equiv. of "sports cars"-even the armed Hawk (trainer built in India) was rejected for acquisition,the IA/IAF would've ahd excellent GA/CS support more deadly than attack helos and far more survivable too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 22 Aug 2017 00:46

Philip, We need to temper our claims for military hardware. its not like India is going to take on Warsaw pact powers.

So from lessons learned form the two gulf wars what do you think is an ideal solution?

Looks like low flying helicopters are vulnerable to RPG and man portable SAMs.

Maybe a modified Hawk type of aircraft with many guided bombs?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 22 Aug 2017 01:39

Philip that would have happened to any chopper sent in to kick the doors open. There is no two ways around this. There will be damage if you go to fight. Only way around it is to set a hard deck of 15K feet away from pom poms, stingers and use expensive LGB's to soften your target for a long time or send in a ground opening unit and there will be real casualties in thousands there.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 22 Aug 2017 06:01

manjgu wrote:deejay .. so true... 1) in one of the programs IIRC the pilots/ IAf officers were wearing army style uniforms... and the officer said we are closely embedded with the army and develop the fighting doctrines together..2) Will the apaches be of any use against the Hans?


i believe this is the show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgjAh76QjhI

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 23 Aug 2017 04:17

Indian Navy sets ball rolling to buy 234 multi-role, utility copters
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... dPFYK.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 23 Aug 2017 07:14

Groan!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 23 Aug 2017 08:32

The 110 medium asw i can agree with. Our sea kings are the deathbed

Utility helos have to be dhruv in some form. Twin engine good for naval ops

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 23 Aug 2017 12:02

Singha wrote:The 110 medium asw i can agree with. Our sea kings are the deathbed

Utility helos have to be dhruv in some form. Twin engine good for naval ops


Eurocopter is making a strong bid with Panther which maybe too big for our ships. Bell has not made much of an impression either. This one should go to Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 23 Aug 2017 13:03

It will be 4.3T panther versus 5.5T naval Dhruv in which Dhruv will be eliminated if MTOW is limited to 4.5T and if MTOW is limited to 3.5T then AW 109 and bell429 will be contender and maybe ka226 naval version.

It should have straight away gone to naval Dhruv.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 23 Aug 2017 14:30

sankum wrote:It will be 4.3T panther versus 5.5T naval Dhruv in which Dhruv will be eliminated if MTOW is limited to 4.5T and if MTOW is limited to 3.5T then AW 109 and bell429 will be contender and maybe ka226 naval version.

It should have straight away gone to naval Dhruv.


Sir, the deck size reports were from a pretty close chai wala source. One of those who had gone for the deck visit for OEMs. Also, there was a recent report on Ka 225 being rejected by IN. Bell 429 also does not stand a chance while AW 109 from Leonardo (aka Augusta) comes with legacy corruption issue. It under performs viz. the Bell 429.

Eurocopter is making a strong bid with Panther and promising to set up big time manufacturing at Dholera (Gujarat) but I am not so sure that the Dhruv will lose out.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Gyan » 23 Aug 2017 18:09

Have we perfected the folding rotors for Naval ALH? I fear GSQRs being mandated between the weight of LUH & ALH with twin engine requirement. I think light & medium requirement should go desi and heavy to imported.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 23 Aug 2017 21:10

Attack helis/armed helos have come to be integral assets of ground forces.Nevertheless,given the vulnerability of helos,the task of heavy strikes against the enemy's troops is better served by aircraft flying higher and heavily armoured.Apart from A-10s,SU-25s,MIG-27s have heavily armoured cockpits.I have proposed that since we do not have either the A-10 or SU-25 available,we use COIN turboprops,armed Hawks or better still armoured Jags,which will have the best added eqpt. for GA/CS.We coild easily reopen the Jag line and build 2-3 sqds of dedicated aircraft ,esp as we're negotiating for 30 odd old French Jags.Twin engined Jags more survivable,excellent sensors,etc. for delivering PGMs along with a heavier payload than props/armed Hawk.A titanium armoured cockpit and vital zones, like the
MIG-27 could be built for Jags and the bird wouldstill be much cheaper than an Apache!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 23 Aug 2017 21:34

The IMRH is 5 years too late for this project. had it come in to being in 2011. The navy wuld be replacing the Sea king with an Indian solution.

Too bad.

On a separate note, does any one has any count of how many Mi 8/17 are in service with the Indian armed forces.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 24 Aug 2017 00:45

111 NUH TENDER


123 NMRH TENDER


NUH is of 5T class?

c) Communication Duties (one role at a time). Will the helicopter be capable of undertaking the following missions:-
(i) Carrying a minimum of six passengers seated on passenger seats.
or
(ii) Carrying a minimum of 420 Kgs of cargo (inside the cabin).
or
(iii) Carrying a minimum of 500 Kgs load under slung on cargo hook.



NMRH MTOW 12.5T

Ship-borne Operations. Can the helicopter meet following conditions:-
(a) Operate from frigate and larger ships up to Sea State 4. Provided with Tie down / lashing points on the helicopter to ensure lashed stability when tethered to the deck as per operating manual.
(b) The maximum folded dimensions of the helicopter not more than 15.1 M in length, 5.0 M in width and 5.2 M in height for accommodating in hangar size of length 15.5 M, Width 5.5 M and height 5.3 M .

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby SBajwa » 24 Aug 2017 01:21

by Philip
It routed enemy tanks at Longewala,which was perhaps the decisive battle in '65


The longewala battle was fought between 4th - 7th December of 1971.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Longewala


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