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Indian Military Helicopters

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shiv
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 19 Sep 2017 17:34

tandav wrote: I guarantee that an unarmed Hawk type Trainer in the hands of a trained pilot can safely crash a Eitan / Predator type UAV and light A/C or Helos without committing suicide by way of crashing, no guns, no missiles, no stress on Hawk airframe. The Hawk just needs to know where to put his high energy Vortex.

If I bet on this I am sure you will win the bet on a fusillade of aerodynamics and I will be left with a lot of intake and exhaust holes to add to my existing afterburner

But that is not the point. What would be ideal kill situations for Hawk trainer to kill a Cobra helo in real life. I am asking about what you have dismissed in one short sentence. I presume you mean a pilot needs to do something by this sentence and the questions follow:
tandav wrote:The Hawk just needs to know where to put his high energy Vortex


For example if the helo is flying nap of earth (30 meters) though undulating low hill/ mountain terrain(Afghanistan/Kashmir), what would the Hawk pilot have to do to ensure one pass one kill so the helo pilot is not warned? What sort of altitude should he start at if he must dive down, what airspeed should he reach as he approaches the helo to guarantee its instability after he passes and what are the altitude requirements if he must pull out of a dive, and if he must dive and pull out of a dive what air temperature and air density ( a function of altitude) are allowable? What is the minimum distance he must pass the helo. Can he do it from above, or below or from the side?

Or should the Hawk pilot wait for flat ground where the hello is flying level, start from behind and the fly past the helo to ensure that de destabilizes it? What are the wind requirements? What if there are cross winds - would that affect the distance at which he needs to pass the helo and still not collide with it?

Or should he simply line up behind and pump a few cannon shells into the helo - an act that he would have practised dozens of time unlike placing musharraf hawa somewhere?

I would find some details about these far more convincing than a lecture on vortices. I get too many aerodynamics lectures on BRF and I have been here too long to be impressed. There is one BRFite who is actually a prof and throws books at people and can throw equations as well so lectures don't put me off. I am the pesky student who knows nothing, understands nothing but keeps asking pesky questions

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 19 Sep 2017 19:23

Shiv ji, tension not. IAF had tried in early 2000s and I am sure they will have tried even later helicopter vs fighters. To be sure helicopters never got a kill but the fighters did not have it easy either. Short of discussing tactics, of a helicopter spots a fighter then all it needs to do is to turn into a fighter. And yes low and slow are the helicopters best defence against aerial threats. Since these were tried at TACDE one can work with the fact that some pretty experienced crew were fielded from both sides.
Oh yes, Su 30 guys with their BVRs claimed a kill every time.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Bala Vignesh » 19 Sep 2017 20:18

Them Su-30 guys and their Shenanigans, eh Deejay sir!!!

But on a serious note, wonder why TACDE tried out this situation??

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 19 Sep 2017 20:31

It's TACDE job to develop tactics for all possible scenarios. From fantastic to the usual. Training procedures develop from here and sometime gaps are identified.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 20 Sep 2017 01:18

HAL is looking for collaborations to integrate a 12.7 mm gun (with 300 rounds) in the cabin of ALH. There is a requirement of 32 such choppers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 20 Sep 2017 01:38

I am pretty sure LCH will eventually be cleared to carry 4 missiles (ATGMs/ATAMs) per under its wings. Afterall, the heli is capable of picking up 1000 kgs of payload. Currently, I think they are limiting the number of missiles for ground clearance with respect to crashworthiness certifications. Once they have the base model ready, they will refine upwards.

In fact, IIRC part of the delay on integrating Mistral was because they were trying to get a quad launcher for LCH/ALH but none was available that would clear the crashworthiness requirements.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 20 Sep 2017 07:11

The ground clearance issue should be more with Rudra than with LCH. The wings of LCH are mounted much higher on the body compared to the Rudra. I suspect/hope we'll see 4 missiles per pylon in LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 20 Sep 2017 07:29

srin wrote:The ground clearance issue should be more with Rudra than with LCH. The wings of LCH are mounted much higher on the body compared to the Rudra. I suspect/hope we'll see 4 missiles per pylon in LCH.

THere are more considerations for crashworthness than just ground clearance I believe.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 21 Sep 2017 07:46

Indranil wrote:HAL is looking for collaborations to integrate a 12.7 mm gun (with 300 rounds) in the cabin of ALH. There is a requirement of 32 such choppers.


This does not make sense. Haven't they already done this with Rudra?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 21 Sep 2017 09:10

the vortex thing was last seen in the movie adaptation of Firefox novel by Craig Thomas as the stolen thought guided Mig31 piloted by michael gant increases speed at sea level to evade the SAM radars from the missile cruiser Riga, it overflies rear of the ship, first taking out one hind (!) with a aam and the other hind gets vortex and spins into a crash on heli deck



youngsters here might not have read the novel the author was a specialist in cold war mil fiction. another good novel is North cape by joe poyer about a sr71mki on a long dangerous mission where it is finally shot down by a mig31mki called Ilyushin Falcon with multiple Falcons carrying out a chase and coordinated intercept using optical sensors to defeat the EW and LO of the spy plane, the final shootdown occurs when the Falcon is short on fuel to fly back home but the pilot presses home the attack, then spirals his plane down from very high altitude and probably ejects at lower level... and the author also ejects his damaged plane and escapes across the artic on foot. good stuff on the physics and geometry of high speed high alt intercepts and how the SR71mki cruising at 80,000ft and mach3 could evade SAMs by changing its speed and course slightly to make the range-speed impossible to make up for pursuers. it also talks of the mission being days long and pilot being drip fed with drugs to doze off in quiet periods then brought awake with adrenaline type drugs when needed by a AI system. he is chased all over central asia , up the Urals and finally bagged over the north cape. I was reading all that in class6 :D

Image

good old meat and potatoes kind of days

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 21 Sep 2017 09:14

Thakur_B wrote:
Indranil wrote:HAL is looking for collaborations to integrate a 12.7 mm gun (with 300 rounds) in the cabin of ALH. There is a requirement of 32 such choppers.


This does not make sense. Haven't they already done this with Rudra?

I believe these are for the CG. The gun will be mounted on the port side door.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 29 Sep 2017 01:44

If you ask me this is the best angle for ALH/LCH: From back, looking top down. Unfortunately this angle is the most rare too. I can only remember one from AI of LCH. It had immediately hit me as to how beautiful the machine was. The rotor, the grills ...

Image
Pic Courtesy: Basani Satish Kumar (@satbasani)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VishalJ » 29 Sep 2017 17:09


wig
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby wig » 30 Sep 2017 10:52

http://tribuneindia.com/news/nation/mi- ... 75161.html

Mi-17 upgrade will be carried out at 3 BRD


“The upgrade includes replacing conventional cockpit gauges with flat screen multi-function displays, installation of weather radar, new avionics and communication equipment as well as navigation suites that are compatible with present-day ground-based direction finding aids and instrument landing systems,” he added.
Besides Israeli firms, a Bangalore-based private firm is also involved in the upgrade project. About 90 Mi-17 helicopters will be upgraded. The IAF operates three variants of this helicopter. “The Mi-17 V5 came in from 2012 onwards and this variant is already equipped with most of the features, including night-vision goggles, which are being considered for the older versions

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2017 11:20

The Kamov 226 is meaningless with the arrival of LUH. Also, this is a recipe for failure when HAL will manufacture both the helis. It is obvious which one will get the step motherly treatment. I wish that Kamov and some Indian industry partner comes up with something similar to below. IA/IAF have already voiced their admiration for these machines in the latest Aero India.

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2017 12:13

The LUH has to swiftly complete its trials.We know how long HAL takes to complete trials,even the LCA trials (gun) haven't been completed as yet! When will the LUH complete its weapons firing trials? Anybody's guess.Until it qualifies,the IAF won't touch it having had a bad experience first with the BTT,then IJT and are still waiting for the LCA like waiting for Godot.It takes so long to select,negotiate,seal and execute a def. order.The KA-226 has completed all stages. The IA/IAF are waiting for the first 20 to arrive from Russia before local production kicks off. In any case there is a req. for around 400+ of LUHs over the next decade and [production of at least 2-3/month will be needed to meet the desi demand.HAL can build both types,the KA-226 first and LUH later to meet the immediate and future demand.HAL could win both ways,building around 180+ Kamovs and 200+ LUHs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 30 Sep 2017 12:20

I don't think the Ka-226s are coming. MoUs will be signed in every visit though. Like the MTA and the US-2.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 30 Sep 2017 13:12

The pray for the IA,IN and IAF (and the nation).They've reqd. LUHs for aeons now and the Chetaks keep crashing. If a deal signed both by Modi and Putin ,where HAL,a DPSU is to manufacture the same,can't be executed,then the Dear Lord help us.Babudom if not defeated will lead the country into military disasters with the armed forces unable to fight properly,poorly equipped,when neither desi or firang eqpt. are available to them and we still have to depend upon 50 yr. old MIG-21s,etc.!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 30 Sep 2017 15:11

Indranil wrote:I don't think the Ka-226s are coming. MoUs will be signed in every visit though. Like the MTA and the US-2.


Great news if you are correct! I do think thats a strategic mistake by kamov. They knew that LUH was on the way and it would be hard to compete in that space. The 9 ton and 12-15 ton space was still open back then. Now HAL has moved into the 12 ton space as well. Kamov will have a hard time competing with other 9 ton offerings to co produce if we ever go that route. That slot is primarily a naval requirement with 123 numbers required. IMO, IA and IAF can live with 3/6/12 ton offerings. Perhaps Deejay can talk more about his opinion on will IA/IAF really need a 9 ton machine when they will get a local 12 ton replacement for Mil17?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Sep 2017 15:56

^ Ka-226 seems to be a quid pro quo for deep ToT by Russia. Otherwise, doesnt make sense.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Oct 2017 00:48

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ Ka-226 seems to be a quid pro quo for deep ToT by Russia. Otherwise, doesnt make sense.


ToT for what?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Y I Patel » 01 Oct 2017 00:55

Maintenance of certain posts on the Saltoro Ridge requires highly maneuverable helicopters that can fly to extremely high altitudes and land on a dime. If Ka-226 can satisfy those requirements with its counter-rotating rotors, it would be a huge boon.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 01 Oct 2017 08:28

Y I Patel wrote:Maintenance of certain posts on the Saltoro Ridge requires highly maneuverable helicopters that can fly to extremely high altitudes and land on a dime. If Ka-226 can satisfy those requirements with its counter-rotating rotors, it would be a huge boon.


Assuming you are right and only Ka-226 can meet such a requirement ( I doubt it, but lets agree), can that not be met with import of 40-50 units just for those bases? What are the copters landing on these ridges now? How does Make in India add anything to supporting saltoro ridge?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 01 Oct 2017 19:20

The KA-226 was chosen by the IA after extensive trials in competition with other helos. and performed well at high alts.,ideal for Siachen type duties. Its unique characteristic is the detachable cabin,which can use other modules for ambulance services,etc. This may be why it was chosen (IN wants something else which has better ASW capability for its light helo role) .Kamov are increasing their portfolio of small,med and large helos too.However,its best product is the MI-17V,a world-beater,used even by western/NATO forces in Afghanistan,etc. We already have the ALH in large number,no need for a firang helo at all in that cat. The planned med. helo however has seen no interest whatsoever from the IN,which requires asap,proven ASW/MR helos for its empty hangars of its warships and carriers,not something that may or may not arrive in 5 yrs. time! All KA-28/31 helos in IN service are to be modernised. Contract signed for first batch of 10 helos for $300M.

Please read the entire article below to understand the crisis in the IN's helo fleet and who is responsible and why.


https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... ndian-navy

The MRH Saga – A Blue Water Navy Without Multi-Role Helicopters
Xcpt:Naval Helicopter Cases in Disarray
Diligent staff at naval headquarters have been drafting plans that have repeatedly come a cropper in the byzantine corridors of MoD (Navy) where there is full authority and zero accountability. The state of our key helicopter programmes are languishing at various levels:

The advanced light helicopter (Dhruv) failed to meet navy’s expectations due to ship integration issues and challenging tri-service specifications riding on a 5.5-ton class helicopter.

The much-awaited case for replacing ageing Chetaks (Alouette IIIB, 1960s vintage) with naval utility helicopters (NUH) that started in 2008 has returned to pre-Request For Proposal (RFP) stage.

A mid-life upgrade (MLU) case for the Sea King Mk 42B ASW helicopters which progressed till field evaluation trials (FET) was shelved after the navy and OEM AgustaWestland fell out on proprietary issues.

The I/NMRH programme runs the risk of getting stuck in a bureaucratic quagmire if a clear strategy is not evolved to navigate through all kinds of vested interests that will be at play in this big-ticket project. Most of these helicopters are required by the navy as of yesterday, but the project remains on paper as on date.

A contract for mid-life upgrade of 10 ASW Kamov-28 helicopters was finally signed in 2016 after meandering for over a decade.
This is probably the only Indian helicopter upgrade programme that is ‘on track’ as we speak.

It is quite likely that some of the ships that originally carried these helicopters may either be decommissioned or have little residual service life left by the time the helicopters return from upgrade – the cost of dithering over minor issues.

Bureaucratic Logjam
There are thousands of reasons why cases can run aground in the MoD. Bureaucrats sitting on either side of the divide have mastered the art of sending back files with notations rather than building consensus or working out a coherent strategy to get the services they need.
Even a single query raised on file can set a case back by a few months. And here we have had more than a fair share of setbacks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 01 Oct 2017 19:48

There is nothing magical about the KA-226. It is not good enough for its own country or any other country for that matter. India needed a mosquito class heli and Russia was angry that we are not buying anything from them. So the KA-226 for India.

HAL's LUH would finish basic flight trials by the year end and it will be offered to the forces. The high altitude, hot and cold weather trials will continue in the background.

I see no reason for the 226. I see all the reasons for HAL and Kamov to develop a heli with counter rotating rotors and pusher prop.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 01 Oct 2017 20:14

If the express need is to support posts at sachin. Why not pick up the k max the helo with synchronized rotor blades. It will be better than ka 226. In all respects.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 01 Oct 2017 20:58

Philip wrote:The KA-226 was chosen by the IA after extensive trials in competition with other helos. and performed well at high alts.,ideal for Siachen type duties. Its unique characteristic is the detachable cabin,which can use other modules for ambulance services,etc. This may be why it was chosen (IN wants something else which has better ASW capability for its light helo role) .

Bullshit. The Ka-226 was never chosen by the services or MoD. The IA/IAF's LUH program was abrogated in favour of a G2G MoU awarding RH the contract as a single-vendor under the fig-leaf of a joint-venture.

Airbus/Eurocopter ended up sidelined without the Ka-226 having to prove any technical or financial advantage over the Fennec.

As far as the current situation is concerned, the HAL LUH can meet all the IA's requirements including high altitude operations, with greater domestic content, without the logistical complexity of a second helo type, and enabling lower costs through higher volumes.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby darshhan » 01 Oct 2017 21:16

Ka 226 procurement has just one objective (RMM : Russia mollification Measure).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2017 21:18

Anyone have any info on the current serviceability of Cheetahs?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 01 Oct 2017 21:26

shiv wrote:Anyone have any info on the current serviceability of Cheetahs?

65% according to a 2015 CAG report.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 01 Oct 2017 22:34

Cheetahs are the main lifeline to many of our troops. I do not believe that the LUH will be ready in time to take up the slack as Cheetahs retire.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 01 Oct 2017 23:03

shiv wrote:Cheetahs are the main lifeline to many of our troops. I do not believe that the LUH will be ready in time to take up the slack as Cheetahs retire.

Then order (or if possible, lease) a batch of stop-gap helos from a foreign OEM. Complement that with more Dhruvs. The latter will be more expensive but at least its a domestic design. And its not like the AAC is likely to find itself over-equipped.

Meanwhile the local production line is to be set up by HAL - instead of assembling Russian (or for that matter European) helos, let that capacity be invested in the HAL LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 02 Oct 2017 03:22

shiv wrote:Cheetahs are the main lifeline to many of our troops. I do not believe that the LUH will be ready in time to take up the slack as Cheetahs retire.


Unless 40-50 of Ka-226 are ordered directly (should we go that route), the make in India effort of ka-226 will take longer than LUH passing through IOC/FOC tests. Infact if we start low serial production soon for bases where we need to deploy cheetahs, LUH can easily replace these aging birds. The serial production is supposed to start in early 2018 with design freeze in late 2017 or early 2018. IA/IAF haven't asked for third prototype and the second prototype seems to be doing well. Indranil/Deejay: Any idea what the popular opinion is like about LUH?

The KA-226 never won in any tender ( we have discussed this before ). It always came in last or second last. Need to find the old thread and point people to read all of those things again.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 02 Oct 2017 06:56

I think the Ka 226 is coming as assembled in Russia at least for the first 20 or 40. The LUH will have a long life but no point allowing it to get a bad name like Sitara and Tejas. Sitara was delayed first by engine change and the aerodynamic issues. Tejas has never recovered from its reputation of delays. Aircraft/Helos are tricky business - one can never predict that all will go well and breathing room must be allowed for rectification of unexpected faults that crop up.

Cheetahs cannot be retired until a new helo comes but this is exactly what is starting to happen. That is also now going on with the MiG 21. Our politicians do not care about defence. They will allow the Air Force to sink and we will have to lose a war before someone wakes up and makes things better by 2060. I will be dead by then.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 02 Oct 2017 07:16

^^True that sir, crazy delays have happened in the past and its always good to hedge your risk.

But at this point, if you order LUH or Ka-226, either will take a year and half before they roll in. LUH may take an extra 6/7 months if the order is placed today for Ka-226 as the LUH design hasn't been officially frozen yet. Any delay in Ka-226 signature will only allow LUH to catch up to Ka-226 and its possible schedule and negate the current disadvantage.

If the design freeze of LUH happens today and low serial production starts by 2018, then it will probably be ahead of Ka-226.

If we do hedge our risk and order ka226, we will be burdened to support it for next 40 years as it doesn't have a large order book. We will be the only fancy operators of this type for a long time and that might become very expensive too for our armed forces.
Last edited by Cybaru on 02 Oct 2017 08:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 02 Oct 2017 07:40

Indranil wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:This does not make sense. Haven't they already done this with Rudra?
I believe these are for the CG. The gun will be mounted on the port side door.

IN & ICG OPV on patrol duties are armed with Chetaks with door mounted MMGs. But I agree with Thakur's POV - the 20 mm stabilised gun developed for Rudra is much better than unstabilized door guns with significantly less ammunition wastage due to much better accuracy and the development work being completed. The longer range of 20 mm keeps the helicopter relatively out of MANPADS & RPG range vis-a-vis door mounted guns. The doors & cabins are free for cargo/troops instead of being cluttered by gunner & ammunition cans. The pilots can operate the 20 mm instead of the excess load of door gunner who is ballast when gun not in use.

Problem is those drafting requirements sometimes just keep the usual way of doing things instead of exploring new possibilities. The other challenge is getting Financial Approval from embedded Defence Accounts folks. The financial approval process is simpler if existing systems/processes like door guns are carried forward instead of "new" nose gun. Anything with past precedence gets approved quickly without a complex justification process.

The only positive part is ships and helicopters getting 12.7 mm HMG instead of older 7.72 mm MMG.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 02 Oct 2017 10:53

Ts is right.There should be standardisation for as much eqpt. as poss. Having helos with the same gun makes sense.

Ckd. the KA-226 deal.The JV between Kamov and HAL is for a new Indo-Ru helo co. 50%+shares held by HAL.Rest by the Ru entity. New plant at Tumkur. First 60 delivered outright,next 40 assembled and last 100 built in India. Total cost for 200 helos $1B. This works out to around $5M a helo.Extras will be cheaper as the infrastructure,etc. costs would've been paid for after 200 are delivered.Thoug the deal was sealed,no idea where it is in the labyrinths of the MOD.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 02 Oct 2017 13:02

We need more info on this upgrade. A 12.7 mm HMG - likely NSV license made by OFB is heavy and large. Not to mention the heavy ammo. Not ideal for helicopter cabins. ICG is also not known to opt for heavy firepower in any platform. Happy to be corrected.

If ICG needs to stop fishermen a few warning shots from MAG mmg will suffice. Worst case go for a SVD-K or some heavy sniper rifle

tsarkar wrote:
Indranil wrote:I believe these are for the CG. The gun will be mounted on the port side door.

IN & ICG OPV on patrol duties are armed with Chetaks with door mounted MMGs. But I agree with Thakur's POV - the 20 mm stabilised gun developed for Rudra is much better than unstabilized door guns with significantly less ammunition wastage due to much better accuracy and the development work being completed. The longer range of 20 mm keeps the helicopter relatively out of MANPADS & RPG range vis-a-vis door mounted guns. The doors & cabins are free for cargo/troops instead of being cluttered by gunner & ammunition cans. The pilots can operate the 20 mm instead of the excess load of door gunner who is ballast when gun not in use.

Problem is those drafting requirements sometimes just keep the usual way of doing things instead of exploring new possibilities. The other challenge is getting Financial Approval from embedded Defence Accounts folks. The financial approval process is simpler if existing systems/processes like door guns are carried forward instead of "new" nose gun. Anything with past precedence gets approved quickly without a complex justification process.

The only positive part is ships and helicopters getting 12.7 mm HMG instead of older 7.72 mm MMG.

shiv
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 02 Oct 2017 19:06

tsarkar wrote:IN & ICG OPV on patrol duties are armed with Chetaks with door mounted MMGs. But I agree with Thakur's POV - the 20 mm stabilised gun developed for Rudra is much better than unstabilized door guns with significantly less ammunition wastage due to much better accuracy and the development work being completed.

The Nexter gun of the LCH is a different class altogether because it can be slewed using a helmet mounted sight and comes as an integrated unit that gets fixed to the helo. Any other nose mounted gun would not compare well. I think deejay himself had mentioned taking part in some gun trials where he joked that a man sitting on the target would be safe because the bullets would get sprayed all around. That sort of mounting would mean that the helicopter has to point its nose at the target and fly ever closer eventually overflying it

A door mounted gun would, IMO be useful in SAR or Casevac operations where the helo can circle around a zone laying down suppressive fire. Accuracy and saving bullets would not be the point - just making an adversary keep his head down.

Door mounted gun on Chetak
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3JNY4 ... sp=sharing

shiv
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Posts: 33464
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 02 Oct 2017 19:25

Cybaru wrote:
The KA-226 never won in any tender ( we have discussed this before ). It always came in last or second last. Need to find the old thread and point people to read all of those things again.


Indeed we have discussed this before but I have not understood the point of the discussion on so many counts

The Jaguar was selected (over Viggen and Mirage F1) in a 20 year long DPSA saga which I followed with interest. Don't know how many BRFites are old enough to recall that saga. It was a competitive tender. It took over a decade to get anywhere and now we have an underpowered Jag that did not perform in the hills.

Another "competitive tender" was the AJT - which also lasted 20 years or so during which we lost a lot of pilots who went straight from Kiran to MiG 21 UTI trainers. The competition was between Hawk and Alpha jet

Then we had the MMRCA saga which would have lasted maybe 12-13 years before a piddly 2 squadrons join the IAF

On the other hand we had there was no competition for the Su-30 and it just landed on our shores and all of us have never stopped going gaga over that. There was never a competitive fly off for the Mi-8/Mi 17 - now considered a stellar performer and a world leader in its class. There was never a competitive tendering process for the Mi-26 whose retirement caused so much weeping on BRF and whose replacement the CH 47 caused so much teeth gnashing.

On the other hand the VVIP helicopter has a tendering process which completely collapsed and the saga is now in court with a former CAS possinbly looking at a jail term. The Mi 17 will be the new VVIP helo

Light Helos had a fly off. The Ecureil(sp?)/its cousin was chosen. The Ka 226 pulled out and then the whole tender collapsed because of reasons I cannot recall now.

The other point is that in competitive tenders it is not just performance but price also. We know now that the French probably quoted an attractive price that did not include maintenance and long term support and it became unaffordable when the fine print was examined.

Someone please explain to me what was the great advantage of a competitive tendering process that it is quoted as a great plus point when it did not occur?


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