Indian Military Helicopters

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Thakur_B
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 01 Oct 2018 12:42

Haridas wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ LCH ensures that in the next mountain war, enemy occupied commanding heights will be thoroughly softened up before infantry charge. LCH is the real game changer for mountain warfare.

So what does MANPADS do to LCH in the mountains, where a/c cant hide but it is always in clear sight of missile?


Manpads will always be a threat, but the previous solution was artillery+ fixed wing airpower. Imagine a kargil like situation today, but our attack helicopters can now operate at altitude. Which means less dependencies on fixed wing aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Avinandan » 01 Oct 2018 12:45

Hari Nair wrote:
Haridas wrote:AW&ST author is surely smoking fresh dope to write stupidity highlighted in bold.
Most Cheetahs are deployed for its high altitude performance (read himalayan flight domain from Kashmir to Kohima) and for that role the LUH is the only direct replacement (even Dhruv does not meet that performance ). Cheetah replacement has to be more capable than Cheetal, 21,000 ft landing /takeoff with > 100kg payload. KA226 hover altitude is much lower.

KA226 will only be for non-Himalayan utility chopper role. It is a very different class (much bigger & heavier) of aircraft compared to Cheetah. But that space is well served by Dhruv and it's derivatives. This is a wastefoool endeavour (no matter Philips rant), path only treaded as a payment to Russia for some hidden national quid pro quo.


I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter.


There goes the HAL LUH :cry: :cry: , I was hoping HAL would have enough time to complete LUH and take a bigger pie of the Light helicopter requirement. What is the future for it now ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 01 Oct 2018 14:50

Avinandan wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter.


There goes the HAL LUH :cry: :cry: , I was hoping HAL would have enough time to complete LUH and take a bigger pie of the Light helicopter requirement. What is the future for it now ?


If it has met the requirements, it is better the Russians supply to us right away, than we wait for LUH to come on-board. The ones we are using should have replaced decades back.

Saving life of our service men & woman is more important than hurt pride of inducting half number of LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 01 Oct 2018 14:56

Thakur_B wrote:
Haridas wrote:So what does MANPADS do to LCH in the mountains, where a/c cant hide but it is always in clear sight of missile?


Manpads will always be a threat, but the previous solution was artillery+ fixed wing airpower. Imagine a kargil like situation today, but our attack helicopters can now operate at altitude. Which means less dependencies on fixed wing aircraft.


The most effective weapon during Kargil was LGBs from Mirage and Bofors in direct fire mode.

I think in any future kargil, due to Manpads, it will be NLOS attack for LCH.

However the most effective will be aircraft delivered PGM. A lesson learnt by IAF, hence most of our aircraft are now PGM enabled.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 01 Oct 2018 15:01

LGB cannot have have the kind of impact the B52s had on the shomali plain, dropping perhaps 50-100 bombs each.

artillery and heavy bombers bring a lot heat to the fight and can sustain it on low cost/round.

for well id'ed point targets (storage sites, airbases, vehicle parks) I agree that LGBs do have a good role. but if one is looking to inflict the maximum chaos or open a channel some KMs wide for a breakthrough, then the story begins and ends with massed artillery, followed by tanks & infantry moving forward under air cover.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 01 Oct 2018 16:34

<OT> The AC-130 H/U Spooky gunship would be pretty handy too. It is near enough flying artillery . Plus it can be now armed with wing mounted Hellfire missiles and/or LGBs.

I wonder if we have ever pursued it as an option. If not, then why not? </OT>

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 01 Oct 2018 17:02

Manish_P wrote:<OT> The AC-130 H/U Spooky gunship would be pretty handy too. It is near enough flying artillery . Plus it can be now armed with wing mounted Hellfire missiles and/or LGBs.

I wonder if we have ever pursued it as an option. If not, then why not? </OT>


Slow moving aircrafts like AC-130 are sitting ducks for manpads. All these gizmos that we see from US is they are been used in a sanitized airspace.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 01 Oct 2018 17:42

<OT> So are the Hepters.

It is extremely difficult to know when an air space has been sanitised. Despite having high capability recon assets (including satellites)

Hence you keep probing. The AF well knew the risk in Kargil (a MiG 21 was lost due to a MANPAD hit) when supporting ground operations.

But once the air space is considered reasonably secure, the fixed wing gunships are quite useful, just like the rotor gunships.

In some mission profiles it is better since it (the AC-130) flies faster, higher and has much more persistence than an attack helo.

Anyways i doubt the AC-130 tech (sensors) will be on offer to us. So it is a moot point. And OT to this thread </OT>

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 01 Oct 2018 17:46

AC-130 primarily operated in the night in previous engagement mainly due to threat MANPADs. Added: As noted above i doubt it will be ever be offered so its moot point discussing it in Helicopters thread.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 01 Oct 2018 17:59

Manish_P wrote:
It is extremely difficult to know when an air space has been sanitised. Despite having high capability recon assets (including satellites)

Hence you keep probing. The AF well knew the risk in Kargil (a MiG 21 was lost due to a MANPAD hit) when supporting ground operations.



That is correct, however you don't prob with assets which have the least chance of survival for such a threat.

The comparison with hepters is not apple to apple. You can shoot down hepters.. if you can see them ..before they see you. They do nip of earth flying to reach their target.

It is difficult to hide gunships like C130s.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 01 Oct 2018 19:39

^ Yes NOE, while extremely challenging, is used extensively by attack helicopters. NOE in the hills is even more dangerous, worst at night.

In any case rarely would our attack helicopters be used on their own (without high level air cover by fixed wing assets)

Perhaps i was not clear enough in my original post. I didn't intend to suggest a fixed wing gun ship platform in place of/to replace the attack helis.

@ John - Yes. They are primarily operated at night (lesser risk and their superb sensors allow for it) in a manpad area. And their typical engagement envelope is about 1.1 - 2.5 km.

..and now enough on the AC-130s here before we are brought down by the breadators

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VKumar » 01 Oct 2018 21:51

Singha wrote:LGB cannot have have the kind of impact the B52s had on the shomali plain, dropping perhaps 50-100 bombs each.

artillery and heavy bombers bring a lot heat to the fight and can sustain it on low cost/round.

for well id'ed point targets (storage sites, airbases, vehicle parks) I agree that LGBs do have a good role. but if one is looking to inflict the maximum chaos or open a channel some KMs wide for a breakthrough, then the story begins and ends with massed artillery, followed by tanks & infantry moving forward under air cover.


In mountainous terrain a miss by an inch is same as a miss by a mile. PGM will be the solution of choice other than artillery mainly because artillery is less expensive.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 02 Oct 2018 22:12

Singha wrote:LGB cannot have have the kind of impact the B52s had on the shomali plain, dropping perhaps 50-100 bombs each.

artillery and heavy bombers bring a lot heat to the fight and can sustain it on low cost/round.

for well id'ed point targets (storage sites, airbases, vehicle parks) I agree that LGBs do have a good role. but if one is looking to inflict the maximum chaos or open a channel some KMs wide for a breakthrough, then the story begins and ends with massed artillery, followed by tanks & infantry moving forward under air cover.



GD, I suggest you read the massive USAF study n Allied Bombing in Europe or the UAF study on Bombing Vietnam.

Bottom line upfront its pretty useless unless its for ego.
Unless the bomb lands on the target its just a big fire cracker.
Then add the dud rate of the fuzes all it does is add to aftermath clean up.
Instead of salivating over Youtube Videos one should look at the opponents and designate the right type of ordnance.

One lesson from Kargil was the intruders hiding in sangers etc.
To defeat them, the 500 kg GP bomb with pellets was designed as the pellets ricocheting kills them.
The IA wants to go full 155mm with electronic fuzes.
Next will be the PGK type fuze to improve effectiveness and reduce logistics.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 04 Oct 2018 10:49

Image

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 04 Oct 2018 11:01

Wow! Nice photo. Location (or altitude) please?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Oct 2018 11:32

Manish_P wrote:Wow! Nice photo. Location (or altitude) please?

Classified....
Please do not ask....
Secret payload...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Singha » 04 Oct 2018 14:50

i wonder if our coast guard who operate dhruvs and dauphins have this kind of rescue people ? sounds useful.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 04 Oct 2018 15:52

ks_sachin wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Wow! Nice photo. Location (or altitude) please?

Classified....
Please do not ask....
Secret payload...


No problem at all :) Lovely Pic

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 04 Oct 2018 16:42

Manish_P wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Classified....
Please do not ask....
Secret payload...


No problem at all :) Lovely Pic

Let's just take a moment to appreciate the picture and do a micro lungi-dance mentally because a desi maal is lifting this much weight underslung to a point which is high and cold enough to warrant a complete snow cover. Who knows how much weight it is carrying inside those closed doors of the cabin.
And the cherry on top is this is done on a Light Heli. :D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby suryag » 04 Oct 2018 16:52

light heli ? if it is LUH(looks like the Dhruv) it is indeed moment for lungi dance

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 04 Oct 2018 17:22

suryag wrote:light heli ? if it is LUH(looks like the Dhruv) it is indeed moment for lungi dance

But it is called ALH. Advanced but Light Heli nonetheless. :D

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Manish_P » 04 Oct 2018 19:36

souravB wrote:..a desi maal is lifting this much weight underslung to a point which is high and cold enough to warrant a complete snow cover.


Exactly that!

This forum does need a lungi dance smiley/emoticon. Actually I really expected to see it when the forums were given the new look 2-3 years ago

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 04 Oct 2018 19:37

GD, Please keep some thread discipline. Don't post non Indian related stuff in this thread.
It does require admins extra work to move it to the right. thread.

I am doing that this time. next time will issue warning to any who violate basic thread discipline.
We have umpteen threads just for this purpose.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Oct 2018 02:56

No Ka-226 deal this time too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby putnanja » 06 Oct 2018 09:14

Whats the latest on LUH? No news for a long time.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 06 Oct 2018 09:31

Indranil wrote:TSarkar,

1. These helis are unlikely to fly out of India. For flying in India they do not need EASA/FAA certification. They require DGCA certification only.
2. Niggles during certification is routine. If any of these were safety critical, there would no certificate issued.
3. VVIP helicopters don't work like chartered planes. They spend a lot of time on the ground.
4. If Dhruv is a made mandated buy, then there must be punitive action on HAL if they can't guarantee certain up times. And the same goes for the private sector company which gets the license to manufacture the civilian version.


Indranil Maharashtra's current CM is an extensive traveler. He is usually on tours 2-3 days a week. The preferred mode of transport has been helicopters. DGCA and MoH has gone paranoid about aircraft safety especially when they are flying elected representatives. This baby bought by the Govt of Maharashtra is not going to be a Hanger Queen so it needs to be ship shape and safe.

Perhaps ALH is not yet making the cut. We will wait for that to happen in due course.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 06 Oct 2018 09:47

Indranil wrote:No Ka-226 deal this time too.


It seems that the RFP was issued and response received.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Oct 2018 14:28

By the time the deal comes to signing the 226 will have become the 326 with 3 rotors!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Oct 2018 14:29

By the time the deal comes to signing the 226 will have become the 326 with 3 rotors!!!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 06 Oct 2018 15:02

Indranil wrote:No Ka-226 deal this time too.


Good, let's hope it is never signed.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 06 Oct 2018 15:05

A sigh of relief, no Ka-226. Maybe the negotiations will go on, till the LUH receives IOC and is ready for production. Then some other deals will be offered to the Russians and the Ka-226 will be given a quite burial, like the Israeli Spike deal.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 06 Oct 2018 16:21

I was hoping the 226 deal to get through, so that HAL has some first hand knowledge on twin rotor tech. It would have been helpful to have that experience while designing the next gen of helis.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Trikaal » 06 Oct 2018 16:55

souravB wrote:I was hoping the 226 deal to get through, so that HAL has some first hand knowledge on twin rotor tech. It would have been helpful to have that experience while designing the next gen of helis.


Why do we need twin rotor tech for next gen helis? AFAIK, the reason Ka-226 has twin rotors is to eliminate tail rotor. This allows it to carry bigger volume cabins as there is no lateral size restriction because of tail rotor. It also allows easier cabin swapping, the USP of Ka-226.So unless we want to design something like that, we don't need twin rotors.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 06 Oct 2018 16:58

Do we know for sure what the lifting capacity of k226 is for mountains. And how it compares to kmax.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Trikaal » 06 Oct 2018 17:03

Pratyush wrote:Do we know for sure what the lifting capacity of k226 is for mountains. And how it compares to kmax.

If u are asking me Sir, then no. I hope the army conducted trials for that but wouldn't be the first time that trials are relaxed for a foreign equipment. Anyways, my point was about volume and not weight. Different Ka-226 modules need more space(eg medevac) which is why eliminating tail rotor was important in Ka-226.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 06 Oct 2018 17:12

Trikaal wrote:
Why do we need twin rotor tech for next gen helis? AFAIK, the reason Ka-226 has twin rotors is to eliminate tail rotor. This allows it to carry bigger volume cabins as there is no lateral size restriction because of tail rotor. It also allows easier cabin swapping, the USP of Ka-226.So unless we want to design something like that, we don't need twin rotors.

There are more advantages to twin rotor configuration than that.
acceleration with straight nose, more stability during flights, maneuverability, safety, less downwash.
US is moving towards a twin rotor craft for attack and recon helis, Russia already moved to some extent.
Last edited by souravB on 06 Oct 2018 17:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 06 Oct 2018 17:14

mody wrote:A sigh of relief, no Ka-226. Maybe the negotiations will go on, till the LUH receives IOC and is ready for production. Then some other deals will be offered to the Russians and the Ka-226 will be given a quite burial, like the Israeli Spike deal.


Hoping the above comes true. Imo the cabin swapping is designed more for civilian uses ranging from agriculture crop dusting, tourism, load lifting etc.

But its too late with land acquisition in tumkur in advanved stage. This 'hafta' may be collected in the next annual summit.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Oct 2018 18:04

Trikaal wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Do we know for sure what the lifting capacity of k226 is for mountains. And how it compares to kmax.

If u are asking me Sir, then no. I hope the army conducted trials for that but wouldn't be the first time that trials are relaxed for a foreign equipment. Anyways, my point was about volume and not weight. Different Ka-226 modules need more space(eg medevac) which is why eliminating tail rotor was important in Ka-226.
Last edited by ks_sachin on 06 Oct 2018 18:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Oct 2018 18:06

Trikaal wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Do we know for sure what the lifting capacity of k226 is for mountains. And how it compares to kmax.

If u are asking me Sir, then no. I hope the army conducted trials for that but wouldn't be the first time that trials are relaxed for a foreign equipment. Anyways, my point was about volume and not weight. Different Ka-226 modules need more space(eg medevac) which is why eliminating tail rotor was important in Ka-226.

Did you both read Hari Nair sirs post.

Hari Nair wrote:
I'm afraid you are a bit off the mark. The Ka-226 has good high altitude capability, courtesy its co-axial rotors and good installed power. It had cleared the trials conducted by Army for operations on the Siachen and had met the mission requirements. It is planned as a replacement to the Chetak -Cheetah helicopter

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 06 Oct 2018 19:48

I have said this before. I say it again. I wish that all mosquito class requirements are met by LUH. This will give us better economies of scale, faster induction and more flight hours to refine. To me, it does not make any sense to pay ToT fees for something we don't need to. I was (and am) opposed to the Apache procurement for a similar reason.

Kamov and HAL could enter a JV to design and build different size coaxial-pusher prop configs. Ka-90, Ka-92 and even the time for Ka-35 has come. The forces have already shown an interest in such rotorcraft.


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