Indian Military Helicopters

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Sep 2019 08:22

So do you mean to say that Russia gets nothing out of HAL manufacturing Ka226T? Sir, with all due respect and humility, I suggest you read a little about economics.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 09:48

The time for KA226T is now past. There really is no need for it.

If the Russian military complex has to be appeased (not sure why?) but the strategic thing to do for Russia is to get 100 Mi17 order through the Indian books before the IMRH starts flying in three/four years. That order is at-least 3 times bigger than KA226T order. It helps India and Russia both and doesn't even begin with the SCAM of assembling in India.

That also reduces any pressure on HAL to get IMRH right for all the three services.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 10:26

Cybaru wrote:The time for KA226T is now past. There really is no need for it.

If the Russian military complex has to be appeased (not sure why?) but the strategic thing to do for Russia is to get 100 Mi17 order through the Indian books before the IMRH starts flying in three/four years. That order is at-least 3 times bigger than KA226T order. It helps India and Russia both and doesn't even begin with the SCAM of assembling in India.

That also reduces any pressure on HAL to get IMRH right for all the three services.


Mi 17 is now a outdated platform and airframe. If we are going to acquire more helicopters might as well get mi-38 which is mi 17's successor. Easier pilot transitions and maintenance

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 11:25

VikramA wrote:
Mi 17 is now a outdated platform and airframe. If we are going to acquire more helicopters might as well get mi-38 which is mi 17's successor. Easier pilot transitions and maintenance


What is the order book on mi-38 like? I can't find a single order for it.

Mi-17 is very relevant for us. New build will serve us fine for another decade or so. We burn them out fast anyways. Ask the Mi-17 officers here on BR.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 11:33

What was the order book of mig 27 and an 32 when we ordered a 100 of them. I have nothing against mi 17 but you have to acknowledge that the airframe is a dead end. It has been evolved as much as it could be.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srin » 12 Sep 2019 11:36

Raghunathgb wrote:

Just give the entire 400 unit order to HAL and some private sector units for the LUH and be done with it! Why give away money to Russia for a redundant helicopter like the Ka-226T? What is there to gain with that type?


HAL is the chosen agency to manufacture KA-226T in India. So HAL will get all the pie irrespective of orders. MSME will the ones which will be loosing out.


How so ? Is HAL planning to procure from Russia or build itself all the spares ?
I find that puzzling given how much LCA has been outsourced to local businesses.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 12:10

VikramA wrote:What was the order book of mig 27 and an 32 when we ordered a 100 of them. I have nothing against mi 17 but you have to acknowledge that the airframe is a dead end. It has been evolved as much as it could be.


Yes, please do share what the order book of mig 27 and AN 32 was before we ordered. This should be interesting!! :)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VikramA » 12 Sep 2019 12:26

India was the launch customer for an- 32, and mig 27 although a evolution of mig 23 itself was only first ordered by IAF, Sri Lanka got them a lot later.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 12 Sep 2019 21:50

VikramA wrote:India was the launch customer for an- 32, and mig 27 although a evolution of mig 23 itself was only first ordered by IAF, Sri Lanka got them a lot later.


You are saying the order book was "zero" when we signed up? Anyways, I am wasting time responding to flame bait!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 12 Sep 2019 21:52

VikramA, What Cybaru is saying its not for building on Mi-17 but to fill the IAF need and not get KA226t yet another helicopter into our fleet.
Does IAF need medium lift helicopters? YES
Should it be a new one or more of what they already have? I think more of what they already have.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 12 Sep 2019 23:25

Vivek K wrote:So do you mean to say that Russia gets nothing out of HAL manufacturing Ka226T? Sir, with all due respect and humility, I suggest you read a little about economics.


What I meant HAL as a lead integrator will loose nothing but indian OEM will loose out as many parts will be exported directly from russia. You just misunderstood my point.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 12 Sep 2019 23:51

VikramA wrote:Mi 17 is now a outdated platform and airframe. If we are going to acquire more helicopters might as well get mi-38 which is mi 17's successor. Easier pilot transitions and maintenance

What specifically makes the Mi-17-V5 outdated for the role it is expected to perform in the IAF?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 13 Sep 2019 00:38

Nothing makes the Mi-17V5 outdated as far as its capabilities are concerned. It is perfectly fine for use for almost all of the roles that the IAF envisages for the next 30 years AFAIK. Getting a new airframe that doesn't improve on the Mi-17V5's mission performance in a really tangible way just for the sake of it doesn't make sense.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 13 Sep 2019 01:12

^^^ You put it right. And adds to logistic trail. But that's for penguins to worry about not the air warriors.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 13 Sep 2019 02:09

Kartik wrote:Nothing makes the Mi-17V5 outdated as far as its capabilities are concerned. It is perfectly fine for use for almost all of the roles that the IAF envisages for the next 30 years AFAIK. Getting a new airframe that doesn't improve on the Mi-17V5's mission performance in a really tangible way just for the sake of it doesn't make sense.

I completely agree! But since VikramA so confidently labelled it outdated, I was trying to find out if he could back up his statement with facts.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 13 Sep 2019 02:28

nachiket wrote:
Kartik wrote:Nothing makes the Mi-17V5 outdated as far as its capabilities are concerned. It is perfectly fine for use for almost all of the roles that the IAF envisages for the next 30 years AFAIK. Getting a new airframe that doesn't improve on the Mi-17V5's mission performance in a really tangible way just for the sake of it doesn't make sense.

I completely agree! But since VikramA so confidently labelled it outdated, I was trying to find out if he could back up his statement with facts.


Dude, he has been claiming, but not providing data to back up his statements. I was giving him space to prove his point as well. But this is great! Moving on... :)

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 13 Sep 2019 04:30

There are so many pressing procurements and replacements required that even considering replacing Mi-17V5s with another foreign import would be criminal. They're relatively new with a large part of the fleet having been delivered recently. And when there is no problem with the type in service so far, why look to import another type that brings in a modest performance gain at best? We've already spent a fortune on those Chinooks.

I'd much rather the IAF support the IMRH program development till it matures to a point where it can take over from the Mi-17V5.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 13 Sep 2019 20:13

HAL annual report has a picture or LCH integrated with auxiliary fuel tanks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JayS » 13 Sep 2019 23:51

^^ Good catch, I missed that one.

How many liters of fuel it can carry, you think..? Looks like 400-500 ltr to me by eyeballing.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Sep 2019 00:15

I also think that they are around 400-500 ltr. However, I think this is the same one as the HJT-16 and IJT, i.e. 226 ltr.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 14 Sep 2019 01:42

The Apache can carry 230 gallon fuel in 4 external weapon station.

Roughly each EFT weighs 750 kg with 680 kg of fuel for total external payload of 3000 Kg. Each ofthe four external hardpoint is rated to 750kg.

My estimate for LCH is inner hardpoint on wing are rated to 500 Kg while outer are rated to 250 kg for a total external payload of 1500 kg.

My estimate is 500 litres for EFT i.e, roughly 400 kg fuel for the loaded weight of EFT at 450Kg. 800 kg in EFTs added to 1100 kg internal fuel will give 70 percent range extension.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 14 Sep 2019 01:59

Let me ask a friend. This should not be classified.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 Sep 2019 15:51

Cybaru wrote:
nachiket wrote:I completely agree! But since VikramA so confidently labelled it outdated, I was trying to find out if he could back up his statement with facts.


Dude, he has been claiming, but not providing data to back up his statements. I was giving him space to prove his point as well. But this is great! Moving on... :)


Look at the Mil-38 its a reshaped and a larger Mil-17. The landing gear totally gives away the inheritance and the re-use of the 17.
Unless the 38 does not come with some massive edge over the 17s. Let go with the 17s.

38 is just eye candy for now that even I fall for after a couple of ...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Sep 2019 11:10

Kartik wrote:There are so many pressing procurements and replacements required that even considering replacing Mi-17V5s with another foreign import would be criminal. They're relatively new with a large part of the fleet having been delivered recently. And when there is no problem with the type in service so far, why look to import another type that brings in a modest performance gain at best? We've already spent a fortune on those Chinooks.

I'd much rather the IAF support the IMRH program development till it matures to a point where it can take over from the Mi-17V5.


While I am all for the bold part above, isn't the IMRH dead by now? There hasn't been any updates on that project for some time? Or have I been living under a rock and missed the updates?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Sep 2019 11:14

Since the Mi-38 came up against the Mi-17 variants, I figure might as well add my two cents from this post of mine in the Russian arms thread:

vivek_ahuja wrote:I recently saw the new Mi-38 being offered by the Mil folks. Pretty bird:
Image

Its a nice replacement (and more) for the Mi-17. And perhaps even the usual phoregn competitor for the IMRH when the time comes (or is the non-navy IMRH dead between the ALH and CH-47)?

Expect this to be on the options list when the time comes to get a Mi-17 replacement. So, as a fun exercise, I decided to run my helicopter performance software on the two birds as a comparison:
Image

Usual stuff and assumptions that you have seen before from my other plots, so I won't go into details on that.

For the same payload (5.5 tonnes at sea level), the Mi-38 does a lot better with maneuverability and rate of climb, and also retains almost 50% more payload than a Mi-17 at 12,000 ft whilst also having better rate of climb.

Cool bird on paper.


Performance comparisons available.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 15 Sep 2019 11:22

IMRH is very much alive. I have friends working there. In fact, the going was slow till a few months back. It has picked up significant pace now.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Sep 2019 11:24

@Indranil : glad to hear it. I wish they would give out regular updates to the world on the status of the project and its various planned milestones. It would go a long way in arming their supporters with information to defend against the import lobby.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 15 Sep 2019 12:20


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Sep 2019 12:53

₹ 10000 Cr R&D Budget for IMRH. I guess HAL did not get that money for the second Tejas line. The figure needs to be checked.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 18:34

A simple Google search on the development cost of a comparable medium lift helicopter would have shown that the development cost of IMRH is very low and the second point here is that IMRH is effectively two helicopters in one project. A dedicated Naval variant which again has 3 sub variants and an Army/Airforce variant. So the 10000 crore figure is a steal. Also most of this amount would go into establishing test facilities and infrastructure which doesn't exist as the existing facilities can only cater to ALH class helicopters. The IMRH will be thoroughly modern helicopter which would make India completely self reliant when it comes to helicopters. I believe it should rank right up along with AMCA, UCAV, etc. as a project of national importance.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Sep 2019 19:28

My point is that I never expected and still don't expect a single shot approval of the entire ₹ 10000 Cr Budget. Never happened in the past. Moreover, I believe we do have a very high level of mastery on a large number of the basic technologies involved in the development of IMRH. We also have Indian Aerospace and defense player who are already building full bodies for similarly classed helicopters. So while we have a good idea of the what and how. We will have to learn some of the "why" stuff as we go about the development of the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 15 Sep 2019 19:32

The IMRH according to Aero India 2019 Infoboard will have two varients

Army/Airforce
MTOW 12500 Kg
Payload 4000 Kg
Range 800 Km
Vne 275 Kmph
Cruise 250 Kmph
Altitude ceiling 6 Km

Navy
MTOW 11250 Kg
Payload 3500 kg
Range 800 Km
Vne 275 Kmph
Cruise 250 Kmph
Altitude ceiling 4.5 Km

The naval version will be smaller in size.
Last edited by sankum on 15 Sep 2019 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 19:34

Please elaborate what this "why" is. Riveting structural components is not making helicopters. I have nothing against anyone who builds them but helicopter Design and development is much more than that and I'm convinced that only HAL has that capability and know how. I am looking forward to your reply

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 19:39

sankum wrote:The IMRH according to Aero Indoa 2019 Infoboard will have two varients

Army/Airforce
MTOW 12500 Kg
Payload 4000 Kg
Range 800 Km
Vne 275 Kmph
Cruise 250 Kmph
Altitude ceiling 6 Km

Navy
MTOW 11250 Kg
Payload 3500 kg
Range 800 Km
Vne 275 Kmph
Cruise 250 Kmph
Altitude ceiling 4.5 Km

The naval version will be smaller in size.

Sir, I stood by that display board at Aero India. The naval variant has 3 sub variants namely, ASW, ASuW and troop transport variant. The smaller size is only down to the fuselage due to restrictions of the ship deck. Also the naval variant will have automatic blade and tail boom folding, all of which will not be necessary on the army/airforce version.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 15 Sep 2019 19:49

The main rotors are also smaller in size along with fuselage for naval version with lower altitude ceiling of 4.5 Km optimized for naval operations.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pushkar.bhat » 15 Sep 2019 19:54

The "why" is the deeper design experience that you can never gain by assembly or building the airframe. It's about why you designed a certain thing in a particular way. Why helps define specs, select and develop materials for a specific application and drives the design of the aircraft. I guess we are both agreeing on this.

In the Indian Private sector has vendors like Tata Aerospace and Defence Group which is already manufacturing the entire cabin of the Sikorsky S-92. They are also manufacturing the body for the AH-64 which is then shipped to the USA for fitment.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 20:21

sankum wrote:The main rotors are also smaller in size along with fuselage for naval version with lower altitude ceiling of 4.5 Km optimized for naval operations.

The dynamic system(rotor and transmission) is same for both versions barring the blade folding system. The lower altitude ceiling does not mean the helicopter cannot climb higher, its just that the naval version doesn't need to go higher. Having different dynamic systems for each variant is like making different helicopters which is unnecessary. The IMRH design has incorporated all the learnings from the ALH experience and is aiming to meet or exceed all the requirements of individual services with maximum possible commonality. It will infact be the culmination of all that HAL has learnt and developed over the years from projects big and small and across fixed wing and rotary wing platforms. The objectives both technical and managerial are pretty well defined and With the right kind of backing we'd definitely achieve our targets within the allocated budget and promised timeline.
Cheers!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 20:27

pushkar.bhat wrote:The "why" is the deeper design experience that you can never gain by assembly or building the airframe. It's about why you designed a certain thing in a particular way. Why helps define specs, select and develop materials for a specific application and drives the design of the aircraft. I guess we are both agreeing on this.

In the Indian Private sector has vendors like Tata Aerospace and Defence Group which is already manufacturing the entire cabin of the Sikorsky S-92. They are also manufacturing the body for the AH-64 which is then shipped to the USA for fitment.

I understand what the why is, I just wanted to make clear that there is very little "why" that HAL doesn't know. We build our helicopters knowing fully well what how and why we do things. The private sector which makes just the structure(least technically challenging job) is many decades away from knowing just the what, forget the how and why. And the IMRH project aims to utilize this nascent capability in the private sector too by employing these companies as tier 1 and 2 production partners so that the entire ecosystem is developed. In scope, it is as big and significant as the LCA is.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 15 Sep 2019 20:39

raghuk wrote:--snip--

Raghu while we have you here, can I ask you a few queries regarding IMRH please.
1. Structural composites are being considered or only composite skin surface?
2. Have the engines being already shortlisted from EOI?
3. Are retractable landing gears a consideration in the design?
4. Have all the problems regarding auto-folding of hingeless rotors been solved?
5. Any discussion on BERP type composite blades?

Thank you for your answers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 15 Sep 2019 20:51

1 and 2, I cannot comment, 3 yes very much, 4 the rotors are not hingeless on the IMRH, 5 BERP is just but one of the tip shapes and our tip shape meets the speed requirement set by the services.


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