Indian Military Helicopters

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2020 22:08

Dude - the CDS is meant to rationalize logistics support for cases like the above.

And can you please tone down on the "imported toy lovers" stuff. Its grating at a time when the IAF's head is pushing for and supporting the LCA, AEW&C and multiple other programs.

Please be a bit more circumspect in your choice of words. Consider their impact beyond the crowd here who knows you for a while, understands your background which you've shared with us. An IAF officer who despite the IAF moving towards indigenous programs, chances on these comments, constantly reads disparagement about it being obsessed only with "imported toys", it would actually cheese him off towards indigenous programs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Jan 2020 22:10

Vivek K wrote:^^^^^^Can you imagine the logistics nightmare for supporting 6 Apaches? I wish they would take them back and give them to the IAF which loves imported toys as much as the army - and give 150 LCH to the army - actually shove them down their throats because the army will like to make sure the LCH can fire at Klingon warbirds, take out Agostas underwater and ……… whatever else comes to their mind.
And why would the Navy need the Apache??

Added Later - Now I understand that the Puki trait of eating grass actually comes from us. We would rather eat grass by making insanely expensive, frivolous, wasteful purchases than protect the nation through cheaper, cost effective solutions. Ohhhh!


IA shall be using IAF infra for apache.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2020 22:28

@ Vivek, in addition to everything that Karan just said....please read this from General Naravane, the Army Chief.

The CDS, as Karan said, will iron out the issues.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 3825448960 ---> “There is no doubt that integration of all air efforts are needed as part of overall theaterisation efforts,” Army Chief General Naravane in the context of Indian Army and Indian Air Force Apache gunships.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Jan 2020 02:16

Karan M wrote:Dude - the CDS is meant to rationalize logistics support for cases like the above.

And can you please tone down on the "imported toy lovers" stuff. Its grating at a time when the IAF's head is pushing for and supporting the LCA, AEW&C and multiple other programs.

Please be a bit more circumspect in your choice of words. Consider their impact beyond the crowd here who knows you for a while, understands your background which you've shared with us. An IAF officer who despite the IAF moving towards indigenous programs, chances on these comments, constantly reads disparagement about it being obsessed only with "imported toys", it would actually cheese him off towards indigenous programs.


Firstly: understood and will comply! It is very disappointing to read some of the illogical stuff. I grew up worshiping the IAF. Intent is to goad logical action.

Karan - words emanating are good,however it is past the time that these need translation to action I.e. contract for 83 Mk1As and more orders for Mk1s. Orders for more Mk1s were needed 3 years ago especially when Jags and 27s are retiring.

As for the AEW how about a dozen more of Netras?

I hope the BRF will be just as disappointed at the roosi praises that disparage Indian efforts. As a first step towards a home grown force the IAF could release the order for 83 mk1as.
Last edited by Vivek K on 12 Jan 2020 02:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Jan 2020 02:21

Thakur_B wrote:
Vivek K wrote:^^^^^^Can you imagine the logistics nightmare for supporting 6 Apaches? I Ohhhh!


IA shall be using IAF infra for apache.

So it would then be better to locate the Apaches with IAF. The time to get support from IAF that prioritises it’s own logistics especially in war would make it tougher to get meaningful action especially iwith war time attrition. IA should buildup infra for LCH and induct it in numbers.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2020 02:47

Vivek K wrote:
Karan M wrote:Dude - the CDS is meant to rationalize logistics support for cases like the above.

And can you please tone down on the "imported toy lovers" stuff. Its grating at a time when the IAF's head is pushing for and supporting the LCA, AEW&C and multiple other programs.

Please be a bit more circumspect in your choice of words. Consider their impact beyond the crowd here who knows you for a while, understands your background which you've shared with us. An IAF officer who despite the IAF moving towards indigenous programs, chances on these comments, constantly reads disparagement about it being obsessed only with "imported toys", it would actually cheese him off towards indigenous programs.


Firstly: understood and will comply! It is very disappointing to read some of the illogical stuff. I grew up worshiping the IAF. Intent is to goad logical action.


Goading is fine, to a degree, but when it becomes a constant refrain, eschewing appreciation of positive actions undertaken, the object of your attention may construe your actions as hostile. Just a point to consider.

Karan - words emanating are good,however it is past the time that these need translation to action I.e. contract for 83 Mk1As and more orders for Mk1s. Orders for more Mk1s were needed 3 years ago especially when Jags and 27s are retiring.


This is not in the IAFs hands alone, but for the MOD/MOF and DODP (Dept of Def Production) to thrash out by having HAL agree to the IAF's needs as well. Which is what they did.

As for the AEW how about a dozen more of Netras?


Again, IAF can't do this until and unless the MOD removes Embraer from the blacklist OR allows DRDO to pursue a 2nd program on another aircraft (which may be suboptimal). Remember, IAF didn't originally want Embraer, its choice too was driven by "extraeneous" considerations during UPA era as CAG implies.

I hope the BRF will be just as disappointed at the roosi praises that disparage Indian efforts. As a first step towards a home grown force the IAF could release the order for 83 mk1as.


It is not merely the IAF here. The MOD and MOF both felt the IAF's concerns over HALs pricing were warranted and they had HAL revisit its terms. Now the new terms have been released, the Price Negotiating Committee will sign off on them (this has representation from the IAF, MOD, MOF).

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby arvin » 12 Jan 2020 10:42

Vivek K wrote:
And why would the Navy need the Apache??


The apache for navy was made in jest. I was about to add CRPF and ITBP too.
On a serious note, UK has navalised few of its apache, and is able to operate from its carriers. But all their apaches come under Joint helicopter command and is shared across three services. Apparently longbow in the E version has a sea mode. With new CDS, hope we implement something similar so that purchases are limited to these 28 birds and future orders flow into LCH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karthik S » 12 Jan 2020 11:17

IN needs ASW helos first.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Jan 2020 12:24

Karan M wrote:
Vivek K wrote:
…….


This is not in the IAFs hands alone, but for the MOD/MOF and DODP (Dept of Def Production) to thrash out by having HAL agree to the IAF's needs as well. Which is what they did.



Again, IAF can't do this until and unless the MOD removes Embraer from the blacklist OR allows DRDO to pursue a 2nd program on another aircraft (which may be suboptimal). Remember, IAF didn't originally want Embraer, its choice too was driven by "extraeneous" considerations during UPA era as CAG implies.



It is not merely the IAF here. The MOD and MOF both felt the IAF's concerns over HALs pricing were warranted and they had HAL revisit its terms. Now the new terms have been released, the Price Negotiating Committee will sign off on them (this has representation from the IAF, MOD, MOF).



Karan da - we have seen the IAF be more vocal in support of the Rafale. IAF was in the forefront (and rightly so) in defending this purchase representing only 2 squadron worth of aircraft. There seems to not have been much though given to replacing the retiring Mig-27s or the underpowered Jaguars. It is strange to see such a large chunk of the strike squadrons being phased out with no replacement ordered prior to the phase out decision. And it is more surprising since these tasks can be well performed by the LCA MK1. Its capability as a striker was proven in Gaganshakti and praised by the IAF. The retiring squadrons should have been replaced by LCA Mk1 logically speaking. Yet we're wasting time with the smoky, maintenance intensive 29s. if there had been forward thinking the retiring strikers could have been replaced without endangering national security.

And I have seen how GOI system operates up close. Since you talk about my personal story - My family wanted to be India's economic soldiers with import substitution. We were attacked by the French and the Chinese (unethically and unfairly) with no support from the GOI. I'm not looking for any sympathy here but the fact is that my father passed away fighting a losing battle on the economic front in 97 and my mother finally last year gave up waiting for things to change and passed away, the battle completely destroying my family - only because Indians cannot accept Indian products. The British could not change our religion but changed our genetic make up to convince us that we are not capable (thank God we had Vikram Sarabhai and Kalam to give us a space program). I give you one small incident (I never tire of telling this)- I was in 32nd milestone one night (around 1993) and buying paan from the shop outside after dinner. I was behind two young lads - sons of some rich family. The young ones were buying a Nestle Polo from the paan wallah. The guy had the Indian version (Rs. 3) and the Imported version (Rs. 20). One of the kids said sensibly, let us buy the Indian one - its very cheap. The other retorted - who wants the Indian one, it won't be good. Lets buy the imported one. They paid Rs 20 and walked away satisfied. Think about it - these were the same exact product, manufactured by the same firm (Nestle) with tight quality control to make sure their tastes were the same. Yet the Indian product received the boot. This is the story behind the LCA and the Rafale. I can recount hundreds of similar incidents where this was repeated with leading firms being involved.

I don't buy the MOD babu claim. We are not talking about buying a bus for tourism - but a bunch of hardware for national security. They need to order more MK1s to make up fleet strength and order more Netras!! Fighting for what one believes is never easy I'm afraid. How can we build a strong nation without a local MIC? The Marut, the Arjun and now the LCA offer tremendous opportunities. Lose this and there goes the nation! The dragon is at our doorstep with the barbarians on the West trying to do a Ghazni.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2020 16:03

Vivek, my sympathies for your personal loss. May your parents get moksha. I have always maintained there are many who serve the nation in myriad ways, and your family was clearly one of those which did their bit and more.

About this:
I don't buy the MOD babu claim. We are not talking about buying a bus for tourism - but a bunch of hardware for national security. They need to order more MK1s to make up fleet strength and order more Netras!! Fighting for what one believes is never easy I'm afraid. How can we build a strong nation without a local MIC? The Marut, the Arjun and now the LCA offer tremendous opportunities. Lose this and there goes the nation! The dragon is at our doorstep with the barbarians on the West trying to do a Ghazni.


Please don't constantly berate the wrong group for actions they had no role in! This is not driven by any MOD babu, but a process driven decision which was initiated because the previous Govt chose an aircraft for the wrong role, i.e. Embraer for the AEW&CS, despite the fact the IAF wanted something "more". That has now tangled up in a corruption investigation and a cynical opposition playing up the Rafale, despite no evidence, will obviously make the current GOI think twice about making a political decision to close the investigation and order more aircraft. Even so, lets see.

Next, the LCA costing was way too high. For long, there has been a perceptible belief that HAL and DPSUs need to revisit how they run the programs and cost them. That was done for the first time via the Mk1A. Both programs are to be ordered for a total of 123 aicraft, a Mk2/MWF has been cleared as has been a TEDBF, and an AMCA. Yet, some of you folks are constantly complaining! Relax and take a step back and look at the big picture.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2020 16:22

Things are on the up for indigenous efforts. To think about it, big ticket items that were initiated in the 1980s are bearing fruit 40-years later. There is maturity in R&D, testing, production, induction, and support. Next two decades the transition to indigenous looks to accelerate (and in the process decimate imports) :idea:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2020 17:40

I don't see any smoky maintenance problems with the upgraded 29s,and the legacy birds were bought 25+ years ago! One agrees with the non'-replacement for 23/27 Floggers, esp. the 27s with armoured cockpits for survival against ground fire.
The poor Jags have also languished with incremental improvements and will be in a future spat the mainstay of our ground/CS strike attacks, not the top-of-the-pops Raffys,etc.
The LCA would've been an excellent choice had it come in earlier in two variants, just like the Flogger,one for GA and the other as a MIG-21 interceptor/ air combat fighter. Trying to make it z jack-of-all trades killed the spirit of the design,making in obese and underpowered. The F-414 for the Mk-2 requiring major fuselage redesign too.

In all the debate about fighters, the hard truth never gets told, that 2/3s of all our combat losses have been to ground fire.Former USN CNO Adm.Greenert questioned his own navy wanting " sports cars" when in the era of LR PGMs a " bomb truck" could do the business and far cheaper too. Lowly JF-17s in large number ,upgraded as time goes by, can cause much damage to our ground forces.Air defences today are far more capable than the fighters decades old.

But this is the helo td.How will our attack helos fare in this new air- defence age? The wars in the ME and AFG must be carefully studied as the same types we and our enemies mostly operate were used,suffering heavy losses to various kinds of ground fire.
Apaches were scalped aplenty in Afg. The type never used again for certain missions. However, the use of helos in embedded support of the ground war is essential and our best hope is the LCH which comes both capable and relatively cheap. This should be the priority desi helo project which will give the army the airborne " cavalry" in numbets that it requires.
Armoured cockpits are a must though for crew survival. The LCH appears to have too much of a " greenhouse", exposing more cockpit area with armoured glass where armoured plates would be safer .

One must give large credit though to those designers over the decades who've taken venerable All-3s and by adding guns,etc. to the platform turning them into lightweight Lancers and later the armed Dhruv. Every utility type of helo has been accompanied by an armed version giving it the ability to fight on its own in rescuing troops,etc. How much of defensive systems have also been fitted throughout the types and numbers is unknown and the more equipped with countermeasures will help bring down the inevitable losses when we go to war .

Unfortunately naval helo R&D has taken a back seat.It was well known that venerable Sea Kings, Chetaks,Kamovs,tc. would require replacements. Attempts to develop a naval Dhruv has been unsuccessful. The complexity of a naval ASW helo with onboard sensors,systems and consoles for prosecuting subs and surface warships and smaller numbers required appears to have
made it a low priority.Had the Med.helo planned been taken up after the ALH was perfected 2 decades ago, we would by now have had our own SK replacement.We will now have all naval helo types for the next 2 decades be foreign ones. The only hope is the LUH which will require a naval variant wirh folding wings like its rivals.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Jan 2020 22:02

Karan - appreciate your wishes! Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 16 Jan 2020 11:56

MoD expert rejects foreign helicopter, HAL says Dhruv is suitable

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/01/ ... opter.html

Former integrated defence staff chief, Vice Admiral Raman Puri (retired), who the department of defence production (DDP) has appointed as a consultant, has advised against inducting a foreign helicopter as NUH, when defence public sector unit Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is in a position to supply a naval version of its indigenous Dhruv advanced light helicopter (ALH).

Puri has recommended the indigenous Dhruv chopper over a foreign design, citing Para 23 of Chapter II of the Defence Procurement Policy of 2016 (DPP-2016), which states: “Preference will be given to indigenous design, development and manufacture of defence equipment. Therefore, whenever the required arms, ammunition and equipment are possible to be made by Indian industry, within the time lines required by the services, the procurement will be made from Indian sources.”

Puri also pointed out that Para 23 states: “Accordingly the [MoD’s] categorisation committee, while considering categorisation under the DPP will follow a preferred order of categorisation,” in which “Buy (Indian – IDDM)” is top priority. IDDM is the acronym for “Indian Designed, Developed and Manufactured,” a criterion the Dhruv ALH meets.

HAL has pointed out to the MoD that the Dhruv ALH has been in operation with the navy and coast guard for about two decades. It notes: “ALH has proved its robustness in all operating conditions, as validated by accruing more than 260,000 flying hours and [flying] more than 280 helicopters in the services of various customers.”
Last edited by ashishvikas on 16 Jan 2020 21:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 16 Jan 2020 19:33

^^^
Please bold paras 2&3 in the above (DPP). I have been repeating ad nauseum the SP model is nothing more than a chorporate welfare scheme. Has anybody explained what methodology was used to select SP projects, and how they conveniently forgot these clauses in DPP.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 00:35

ashishvikas wrote:MoD expert rejects foreign helicopter, HAL says Dhruv is suitable

Former integrated defence staff chief, Vice Admiral Raman Puri (retired), who the department of defence production (DDP) has appointed as a consultant, has advised against inducting a foreign helicopter as NUH, when defence public sector unit Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is in a position to supply a naval version of its indigenous Dhruv advanced light helicopter (ALH).

It notes: “ALH has proved its robustness in all operating conditions, as validated by accruing more than 260,000 flying hours and [flying] more than 280 helicopters in the services of various customers.”


Good stuff!! Hope they listen.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2020 00:51

First and foremost, let HAL figure out how to fold that damn 4th blade of ALH. Then it can fire on some one else shoulder.

IN has been asking it for years. HAL wants order, atleast need to put some effort in innovating.
Last edited by nam on 17 Jan 2020 01:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 01:01

nam wrote:First and foremost, let HAL figure out how to fold that damn 4th wing of ALH. Then it can fire on some one else shoulder.

IN has been asking it for years. HAL wants order, atleast need to put some effort in innovating.


Google??

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/14062/Indian_Naval_Helicopter_ALH_Dhruv_Gets_Foldable_Rotors

Pinaki Bhattacharya 02:10 PM, September 15, 2015
Work on this modification has been done at Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bangalore to make the rotors foldable which will increase the versatility of the helicopter. The Naval ALH Dhruv is currently used as search and rescue (SAR) helicopter which means it has to land on ships’ helicopter platforms, aircraft carriers and be stowed away in narrow spaces.

While the Indian Navy was happy with versatility of the 5.5 helicopter, a problem with the Dhruv was that its rotors did not fold to be fitted on smaller decks of offshore patrol vessels or even frigates of the class of INS Talwar.

The problem was raised by the Indian Navy about six months ago. A source in HAL said, “the problem has been sorted out. HAL representatives visited the naval installation in Vizag and demonstrated these changes that have been made about the foldability of the rotors.

A navy source says that more than a dozen ALH have been asked to make the rotors foldable and are awaiting delivery. The problem of the Dhruv rotor is that two of its rotors did not fold the way the Indian Navy’s older helicopters such as the Chetaks or Sea Kings did on deck.

But now HAL has cracked the problem. Two of the Dhruv’s rotors fold into the body of the aircraft, while one remains straight outward. So the Indian navy also is changing the hangar designs and making them longer of new vessels like the INS Sumitra class of OPVs.

The first squadron of the ALH Dhruv had been commission in 2013 primarily for SAR role. However, with the folding blades issues resolved, the ALH looks set for an expanded role within the navy.
Last edited by Cybaru on 17 Jan 2020 07:17, edited 2 times in total.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 01:05

nam wrote:First and foremost, let HAL figure out how to fold that damn 4th wing of ALH. Then it can fire on some one else shoulder.

IN has been asking it for years. HAL wants order, atleast need to put some effort in innovating.


And by the way - none of the other vendors in the race have a folding boom/rotor assembly. :mrgreen:

Everyone will have to do the work or IN will have to relax the requirement.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 17 Jan 2020 01:07

As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 01:14

You are gaining space - reducing length by folding the rear tail rotor. The solution is not same - but the effect will roughly be the same.

The aim is to fit in the hangar - not fold the rotor... How it is done does not matter.
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 07:15

The other thing going for HAL is that it can submit two different bids for Indan Navy if price is a factor. It can submit both single engine and double engine offering, allowing Indian navy to divvy up platforms based on budget optimization and not lose out on operational efficiency. Indian navy has known the dimensions of Dhruv for a while, all its new designs cater for enlarged hangars to accommodate two large seaking like birds. Dhruv is about less than 1 meter longer with the tail folding mechanism than other offerings. No more than 3.3 ft of extra length required. All our ship hangars are designed for far more length already. The auto folding rotors+tail assembly saves about 7 feet of length (folded 13.5m vs unfolded 15.85) and fit in the 3.5 m width. I would wager that the manual folding brings the size inline with other offerings.

No TOT rubbish required - No Make in India clauses need to be adhered to - seamless upgrades - home base advantage of deep MRO for engines.. It is already made here.. No land needs to be acquired, personnel trained, supply chain setup, funny 4/5/6 letter agreements................

2nd of Saryu class carrying dhruv - INS Sunayna
Image

Folded image - manual - all backwards.
Image

A real chance to develop the next generation of helicopters for Indian navy. They can even order current offering in small batches (32 * 2 batches) like they are used to and no feelings will be hurt, as they fund and wait for a perfect helicopter with transmission designed from ground up just for the navy in the 6 and 10 ton category.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Jan 2020 08:48

Is blade folding the only reason why Navy is unhappy with ALH dhruv?
Last edited by Raghunathgb on 17 Jan 2020 09:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Jan 2020 09:07

A good video of HAL Naval utility helicopter


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 09:19

Raghunathgb wrote:Is tail folding the only reason why Navy is unhappy with ALH dhruv?


IMO and I could be wrong, dalal's are working overtime to disqualify HAL. Don't understand your reference to tail. Tail folds...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Jan 2020 09:24

Cybaru wrote:
Raghunathgb wrote:Is tail folding the only reason why Navy is unhappy with ALH dhruv?


IMO and I could be wrong, dalal's are working overtime to disqualify HAL. Don't understand your reference to tail. Tail folds...


It was a typo. It was blade folding. Have edited it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 17 Jan 2020 09:38

Raghunathgb wrote:Is tail folding the only reason why Navy is unhappy with ALH dhruv?

Actually that is the highlighted reason we read on the reports. IN's SQR for the NUH program is also a bit interesting which seemingly excludes ALH
1. ALL the blades should be auto folded. ALH is manually folded AFAIK which is difficult on tight deck spaces
2. AUW capped at 5T whereas ALH is 5.5T. Could easily be capped at 6T for all what it is worth
3. Should have variants with maritime radar. IN never funded a variant of ALH with radar
4. Carry torpedoes or such weapons. Can be done but it should be funded

Now some points that actually make ALH's case stronger
1. None of the contender baring AS53 have marine version let alone have radars. AS53 is old.
2. The transmission for high altitude performance make ALH's hover performance better. It has been discussed on the forum before.

So it doesn't make sense to keep ALH out of the tender. HAL could just be asked to partner up with a pvt player and provide assistance with assembling the N-ALH there.
Except provoded the blade folding issue is solved to IN's satisfaction.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Jan 2020 09:50

Is Auto blade folding and folding all 4 blades really that big a deal that HAL can't do it in say 18 months?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 17 Jan 2020 10:09

^^Yes. Due to the rigid rotor system it is a bit tricky and HAL has been on it for more than 18 months already.
Maybe @RaghuK can detail it a bit more.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 17 Jan 2020 10:17

souravB wrote:2. The transmission for high altitude performance make ALH's hover performance better. It has been discussed on the forum before.

No. The transmission for high altitude performance is detrimental for sea level performance where the helicopter will mostly operate rescuing people dropping supplies dropping & extracting MARCOS deploying dipping sonar. However, none of the other contenders too have really powerful engines or worthwhile transmissions. The Arriel on Panther and Ka226 has way lower power rating than the Shakti engines.

souravB wrote:1. None of the contender baring AS53 have marine version let alone have radars. AS53 is old.

Yes only AS565 is navalised. The weight addition for navalisation will reduce performance of others. Hence the request to trial green helicopters seems suspicious and fraudulent.

souravB wrote:1. ALL the blades should be auto folded. ALH is manually folded AFAIK which is difficult on tight deck spaces
None of the contenders have automatic blade folding. Its not about technology but adding equipment in a small helicopter already constrained for size, space and power.

The only navalised contender AS565 Panther is license manufactured by China and sold to Pakistan, so will create IFF challenges in operations.

So yes, the process by which NLUH procurement is run is high inconsistent. This is surprising given that the CNS is from Rotary Wing Naval Aviation.
Last edited by tsarkar on 17 Jan 2020 10:36, edited 3 times in total.

sajaym
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 17 Jan 2020 10:20



Adding a auto folding rotor is no easy task. It'll definitely increase the weight by another 500 kg and qualification trials will stretch for long too.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Raghunathgb » 17 Jan 2020 10:28

So is the HAL solution of folding 3 blades a compromise solution without adding weight penalties? 500 kg weight penalty is pretty high. And we are yet to add radars into it which will add it's own sweet weight.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 17 Jan 2020 10:30

sajaym wrote:Adding a auto folding rotor is no easy task. It'll definitely increase the weight by another 500 kg

How did you get this number?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 17 Jan 2020 12:00

Generic question, can they override Defence Procurement Policy of 2016 (DPP-2016) just like that ?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 17 Jan 2020 13:34

The radar listed should not exceed 40 kg. There are some specifications listed at 3000m etc..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 17 Jan 2020 15:02

tsarkar wrote:
sajaym wrote:Adding a auto folding rotor is no easy task. It'll definitely increase the weight by another 500 kg

How did you get this number?


My apologies for the wrong number of 500 kg. As per below blog, HAL personnel appear to have mentioned that the auto fold system is around 100 kg.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/09/ ... n-two.html

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 17 Jan 2020 16:56

tsarkar wrote:No. The transmission for high altitude performance is detrimental for sea level performance where the helicopter will mostly operate rescuing people dropping supplies dropping & extracting MARCOS deploying dipping sonar.

Sir, it has been already discussed where a derated engine which can provide enough power is also suitable for hot and humid hover conditions.
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2358779#p2358779

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 18 Jan 2020 04:03

souravB wrote:
tsarkar wrote:No. The transmission for high altitude performance is detrimental for sea level performance where the helicopter will mostly operate rescuing people dropping supplies dropping & extracting MARCOS deploying dipping sonar.

Sir, it has been already discussed where a derated engine which can provide enough power is also suitable for hot and humid hover conditions.
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2358779#p2358779

Hovering Dipping sonar operation is just one scenario and a very small fraction of flight hours compared to the time a utility helicopter will spend in other mission and scenarios. In an hour, maybe 5 minutes may be spent hovering deploying dipping sonar while the remaining 55 minutes will be spent to/from target area and transitioning from one target area to another.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 19 Jan 2020 11:48

The requirement is for a replacement for an All-3/ Chetak sized helo,not a med- sized Dhruv,which is struggling to meet technical parameters ( within 2 years we will be able to resolve blade folding,etc.),for our smaller warships,not larger ones like DDGs,CVs,etc. which require larger more capable helos for ASW/ ASuW roles,Sea King replacements,etc.

I do not know if the NUH ( naval HAL LUH ) has folding rotors perfected,whatever,but the requirement is years overdue and at least a first batch should be placed with the best foreign vendor selected. The armed forces cannot wait indefinitely for desi weapon systems which may also be more expensive in the bargain when perfected. This is a classic case for the new CDS to take up immediately along with the CNS.As an analyst remarked,the CDS along with the respective chief should meet the DM on critical issues.His voice along with the chief's will give greater weight to the services and their needs.

Furthermore,with due respect given to the retd. Adm. working as a consultant, what does it do for the incumbent chief and his general staff, procurement experts, who have access and experience of the latest tech. available and suitable for the IN,etc.?
If the service in Q is overruled by retd.staff officers,it will make a mockery of the entire system,requiring yet another committee under babu control to delay matters even further. In the current context,it is not as if there is a fully perfected HAL alternative readily available ( and why should the acquisition be stretched out to 2 years until a folding rotor is perfected?) .Finalistation should take only a few months, why the CDS and DMA has been created, for advising the DM and resolving contentious issues between services and the DRDO/ DPSU. Our enemies must be enjoying our own system working to their advantage.

PS: It is not as if the IN,the most indigenised service is against desi systems.Just look at how it has approved of the Varunastra torpedo, to start replacing firang ones and the sustained pressure and persistence at producing the NLCA. There are so many other indigenous items the IN uses like sonars,radars,etc.It is the most pro- active service when it comes to indigenisation. Not a single warship type barring subs,the Talwars ,amphibs to come and MCMs are foreign in design or construction,and even foreign items like subs,etc. are being built at home.Whatever NUH is selected will also be built locally.One is unsure if this gambit is in play because earlier HAL was reportedly kept out of the running in a tie-up with a foreign player.The views of the service and its chief must be respected. One could easily appoint another retd. AM who could say that the plan for 110 new foreign aircraft is not reqd.as the TE LCA Mk-2 will take just a few years,the same time reqd. to negotiate the deal?! :rotfl:


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