Indian Military Helicopters

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Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 20 Jan 2020 13:51

nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.


Question- can all the foreign contenders do the same?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby jaysimha » 20 Jan 2020 14:20

IAF RESCUES MORE THAN 107 INDIVIDUALS FROM THE FROZEN ZANSKAR RIVER IN THE UT OF LADAKH
17/01/2020
New Delhi: Pausha 26, Saka 1941
Thursday 16, January 2020



https://indianairforce.nic.in/content/iaf-rescues-more-107-individuals-frozen-zanskar-river-ut-ladakh

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JTull
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 20 Jan 2020 17:51

Several Chineses citizens among the rescued, apparently!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Jan 2020 17:53

Chinese Citizens in Ladakh, do we allow Chinese "tourists to a recce of our side of the border.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby manjgu » 20 Jan 2020 18:28

Chinese not allowed to cross the passes ..for cheddar no permit needed ... no pass to be cross. China pakis and bdesh not allowed to cross khardungla ...changla

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ashishvikas » 20 Jan 2020 20:18

India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... ters-28588

To cost $4 billion :eek:

The price for the 200 copters would be around $4 billion (Rs 28,000 crore approximately), sources said. This would also include transfer of 50% technology (screwdriver-giri), including structure of the copter, its blades and landing gear

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 20 Jan 2020 20:23

manjgu wrote:Chinese not allowed to cross the passes ..for cheddar no permit needed ... no pass to be cross. China pakis and bdesh not allowed to cross khardungla ...changla


Bangladeshi biker travelled to Khardungla and made a vlog.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Atmavik » 20 Jan 2020 20:31

manjgu wrote:Chinese not allowed to cross the passes ..for cheddar no permit needed ... no pass to be cross. China pakis and bdesh not allowed to cross khardungla ...changla


i had to take a permit to cross the passes. there are security checkpoints that verify ur permit before the vehicle is allowed to proceed further.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Anurag » 20 Jan 2020 20:57

ashishvikas wrote:India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... ters-28588

To cost $4 billion :eek:

The price for the 200 copters would be around $4 billion (Rs 28,000 crore approximately), sources said. This would also include transfer of 50% technology (screwdriver-giri), including structure of the copter, its blades and landing gear


Hope this isn’t the death knell for the LUH! As per reports these 200 suffice the 135/ 65 IA/IAF orders. That leaves aside the IN orders for 111 which going by the automatic folding blade issue doesn’t look good. Someone please prove me wrong.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 20 Jan 2020 21:48

The cumulative requirement of helicopters in the LUH-category of the three forces are over five hundred. So, it is not a death knell. But, frankly, it makes zero sense to me. If the same helis were to be developed by another company, I would have still understood this screwdrivergiri. But HAL to supply both the Kamov and the LUH is beyond me. And why should we pay for this ToT when we have a desi alternative for which we don't need to pay the same.

But Indian defense acquisition is beyond my reasoning capability.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 20 Jan 2020 22:22

I think the fact is that at the time of contest,which the KA-226 won against stiff competition. The LUH was yet to arrive. The KA design with different modular cabins was a plus point too. It's taken very long to finalize the decision signed by both the PM and Putin a few years ago, typical MOD babudom. Let's see what now happens to the naval LUH, Chetak replacements.There's supposed to be a naval Ka option, but no details of its capability have been unveiled. The Panther is the favourite, "There's many a slip 'twixt the cup and the lip".

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 21 Jan 2020 01:13

It still doesn't make sense. The decision to buy hasn't been taken yet! The decision should be based on the current situation. If it is about geopolitics, there are many heli projects that HAL and Kamov can work together on. The world is moving towards faster helis with pusher props. IA/IAF have expressed interest, HAL doesn't have an offering. Kamov has development started without proper funding. There's a potential state-of-the-art world beater if we put together all the four things stated above.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 21 Jan 2020 16:56

This would be the worst buys, if it really goes through. Still hoping against hope that better sense prevails. $4B deal without tech transfer for the coaxial rotors is worthless.
No other country in the world does this. No one has a development program, almost finished and orders a competing product to be imported.
The stupid assertion of HAL and Russia then jointly marketing the Ka-226T after completing the screw driver order of 200 nos. is also hilarious. HAL would market two competing products, which offer almost the same capabilities!!
Any explanation with regards to help for some other strategic programs also does not hold water. Even smaller countries like Soko, Turkey etc. which do manufacture some military ware, do not succumb to this kind of pressure.
Would have much rather preferred a joint venture to develop medium capacity anti-sub helicopters for the Navy.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rsatchi » 21 Jan 2020 17:04

Indranil wrote:The cumulative requirement of helicopters in the LUH-category of the three forces are over five hundred. So, it is not a death knell. But, frankly, it makes zero sense to me. If the same helis were to be developed by another company, I would have still understood this screwdrivergiri. But HAL to supply both the Kamov and the LUH is beyond me. And why should we pay for this ToT when we have a desi alternative for which we don't need to pay the same.

But Indian defense acquisition is beyond my reasoning capability.

IndranilJi
We should start a BRF signature campaign to the effect that henceforth all Raksha Mantri's should hold an additional MBA and/or Common Sense Degree from Non-Leftist University. :lol: :lol:
Furthermore all Defence Baboos need Common Sense Degree as a pre-requisite for posting in Defence department and not just the Un-Obtanium (IAS) :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 21 Jan 2020 18:26

nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

I asked HAL rep at AI-19 about the above and he said that even with the above config (folded blades & tail), the Dhruv will still fit inside a hangar on a navy ship. I did not go in to the details to ask which type of ship's hangar would it fit. Just assumed that they would be aware of typical usage of Dhruv and the platforms on which it is deployed and hence would have designed for a hangar which space is minimal.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Pratyush » 21 Jan 2020 19:01

Is the tail boom of the navy Dhruv foldable?

If not then it makes no difference if only 3 routers fold. Right.

Is the other roters will be folded towords the tail boom onlee. No?

What am i missing.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 21 Jan 2020 19:11

Yes. The tail boom is foldable

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Aero India 2019: HAL showcases Naval Utility Helicopter
The helicopter is in the final stages of development and is expected to take flight this year. The overall integration is being carried out in accordance with the Naval Project Office to suit the stowage, take-off, and landing requirements of ship-based operations.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 21 Jan 2020 21:57

^^In this configuration are the 3 blades auto-folding? Without auto-folding it is difficult to manually fold the blades on tight deck spaces of frigates and destroyers. It is okay-ish on carriers where the deck space is plenty, but other ship classes are different story.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Indranil » 22 Jan 2020 01:01

I remember a video which showed the tail boom being automatically folded. They said that the rotors were also automatically folded but I don't remember seeing it. I remember reading that the automatic rotor folding capability was first developed for the LUH, and then ported over to ALH. However, they cannot fold the rotors by more than 90 degrees or so. That's why you see this awkward HAL solution. In the optimal 4-bladed folding solution, the front two rotors have to fold by about 135 degrees.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 22 Jan 2020 01:48

souravB wrote:^^In this configuration are the 3 blades auto-folding? Without auto-folding it is difficult to manually fold the blades on tight deck spaces of frigates and destroyers. It is okay-ish on carriers where the deck space is plenty, but other ship classes are different story.


All our ship classes seem to be designed with dhruv dimensions - see report from 2015 on last page. Even the lowly sukanya class has ability to stow away dhruv.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 22 Jan 2020 01:51

ashishvikas wrote:India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... ters-28588

To cost $4 billion :eek:

The price for the 200 copters would be around $4 billion (Rs 28,000 crore approximately), sources said. This would also include transfer of 50% technology (screwdriver-giri), including structure of the copter, its blades and landing gear



Sheer waste of money and losing advantage of creating designs inhouse. A product that creates 500 units at home owns a much larger value chain from R&D to maintenance and ability to create a valuable product as replacement when this one is ready to be sunset. What a colossal waste, plus we lose out on marketing value and mindspace as KA226 will compete with the same product in new markets.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby souravB » 22 Jan 2020 03:49

Cybaru wrote:All our ship classes seem to be designed with dhruv dimensions - see report from 2015 on last page. Even the lowly sukanya class has ability to stow away dhruv.

The blades are folded on the deck and if the blades are manually folded on the deck, the personnel doing the folding has to be near the blade tips. Which in tight deck spaces might be on the edge of the ship or even over it. Hanger spaces might be enough to stow if the blades are folded but manually folding it is where the problem faced by IN.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 22 Jan 2020 04:34

Cybaru wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:India, Russia conclude price talks for 200 Kamov copters

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... ters-28588

To cost $4 billion :eek:

The price for the 200 copters would be around $4 billion (Rs 28,000 crore approximately), sources said. This would also include transfer of 50% technology (screwdriver-giri), including structure of the copter, its blades and landing gear



Sheer waste of money and losing advantage of creating designs inhouse. A product that creates 500 units at home owns a much larger value chain from R&D to maintenance and ability to create a valuable product as replacement when this one is ready to be sunset. What a colossal waste, plus we lose out on marketing value and mindspace as KA226 will compete with the same product in new markets.


Just 50% TOT is being offered in "Shell Structure, Blades and Landing Gear" (whatever that means). We are paying Rs 28,000 Crores for basically assembling Russian Helicopters!!!

This deal makes no sense at all except if we are making payments to receive other strategic systems or technology.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 22 Jan 2020 05:21

Vips wrote:This deal makes no sense at all except if we are making payments to receive other strategic systems or technology.

Generally we dont even get what we pay for, forget hidden stuff...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby fanne » 22 Jan 2020 05:31

No we have gotten good things, it was our foolishness (lets not blame others)
-Bofors design was given, we used it after 30 years
-It is alleged that HDW design is also with us and we have done NOTHING
-Cheetah/Chetak blades were never made, even when we were the most numerous operator and one of the few current ones
-SU30MKI, we got many things, supposedly ability to make things from raw material - But it has translated in nothing substantial, no engine tech has flown to Kaveri, no PESA radar (our Radar in LCA did not amount to much - Uttam is to rescue, but it's a different tech....very long list)
- We do make our own SSBN - thanks to Russian help
-Brahmos
-Hopefully Agat will inspire, we have been failing at the seeker for 2 decades now
……..

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2020 06:22

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1219191313389641728 ---> New Indian military kit debuting at the Republic Day 2020 parade this year, seen here today at the rehearsal over Delhi: AH-64E Apache and CH-47F Chinook.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 22 Jan 2020 07:01

That is one gorgeous looking helicopter!

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 2752966656 ---> You all had seen me with Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) developed by HAL sometime back now. The LCH is part of this year's Republic Day tableau of the Indian Air Force.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 22 Jan 2020 07:15

nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.

You're wrong. ALH can fold all 4 blades but the folded dimensions are higher in this configuration. In a 3 blades folded configuration, the folded dimensions are within the helicopter's width.
With 3 blades folded and and the tail boom folded, the dimensions are well within the customer specified dimensions.
P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 22 Jan 2020 08:50

@raghuk Any updates on the rotary IAV and medium lift helicopter displayed last year at Aero India? Hope they have not fallen by the way side due to the reported fund crunch, TIA.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 22 Jan 2020 17:30

T
raghuk wrote:
nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.

You're wrong. ALH can fold all 4 blades but the folded dimensions are higher in this configuration. In a 3 blades folded configuration, the folded dimensions are within the helicopter's width.
With 3 blades folded and and the tail boom folded, the dimensions are well within the customer specified dimensions.
P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.


That is good news. Is this version of fold-able blades tested yet? IN may be looking at a mature product.

If ALH with foldable blades are certified than there is no reason for IN to be looking for foreign import.IN is the most supportive of Indian kit. If it is not, then we are better off buying off the shelf, than setting up a private heli builder, with no potential for future orders.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 22 Jan 2020 18:33

nam wrote: If ALH with foldable blades are certified than there is no reason for IN to be looking for foreign import.IN is the most supportive of Indian kit. If it is not, then we are better off buying off the shelf, than setting up a private heli builder, with no potential for future orders.


:P Good luck ”buying off the shelf”

Raghuk wrote: P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 23 Jan 2020 09:36

raghuk wrote:
nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.

You're wrong. ALH can fold all 4 blades but the folded dimensions are higher in this configuration. In a 3 blades folded configuration, the folded dimensions are within the helicopter's width.
With 3 blades folded and and the tail boom folded, the dimensions are well within the customer specified dimensions.
P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.


Raghu, if not confidential, can you share if Automatic Rotor Folding is in the works for ALH? Also, if a naval role oriented transmission is in the works?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby raghuk » 23 Jan 2020 11:38

tsarkar wrote:
raghuk wrote:You're wrong. ALH can fold all 4 blades but the folded dimensions are higher in this configuration. In a 3 blades folded configuration, the folded dimensions are within the helicopter's width.
With 3 blades folded and and the tail boom folded, the dimensions are well within the customer specified dimensions.
P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.


Raghu, if not confidential, can you share if Automatic Rotor Folding is in the works for ALH? Also, if a naval role oriented transmission is in the works?

NMRH will have automatic blade and tail boom folding

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby tsarkar » 23 Jan 2020 11:44

raghuk wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
Raghu, if not confidential, can you share if Automatic Rotor Folding is in the works for ALH? Also, if a naval role oriented transmission is in the works?

NMRH will have automatic blade and tail boom folding

Thanks!

Is the issue more about fitting the equipment in a small helicopter like Dhruv?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 31 Jan 2020 03:31

Philip wrote:The LCA would've been an excellent choice had it come in earlier in two variants, just like the Flogger,one for GA and the other as a MIG-21 interceptor/ air combat fighter. Trying to make it z jack-of-all trades killed the spirit of the design,making in obese and underpowered. The F-414 for the Mk-2 requiring major fuselage redesign too.

Philip take this as an unofficial warning. If you continue to peddle nonsense like this you will be sent on vacation.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 02 Feb 2020 12:15

raghuk wrote:
nam wrote:As i said ALH can fold only 3 of it's blades.. NOT the 4th one.

It is no use able to fold only 3.

It is actually a waste of resources trying to create another heli maker in India. The NUH should be brought off the shelf, if HAL cannot fold the 4th blade.

You're wrong. ALH can fold all 4 blades but the folded dimensions are higher in this configuration. In a 3 blades folded configuration, the folded dimensions are within the helicopter's width.
With 3 blades folded and and the tail boom folded, the dimensions are well within the customer specified dimensions.
P.S. None of the other competitors have automatic rotor folding.


Thank you! That should lay to rest this whole fake argument that the ALH cannot meet the Navy’s NUH requirements due to absence of automatic blade folding.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 02 Feb 2020 12:16

nachiket wrote:
Philip wrote:The LCA would've been an excellent choice had it come in earlier in two variants, just like the Flogger,one for GA and the other as a MIG-21 interceptor/ air combat fighter. Trying to make it z jack-of-all trades killed the spirit of the design,making in obese and underpowered. The F-414 for the Mk-2 requiring major fuselage redesign too.

Philip take this as an unofficial warning. If you continue to peddle nonsense like this you will be sent on vacation.


Best to ignore this kind of drivel. No one takes his rants seriously. The IAF knows how good the Mk1 and Mk1A are and that’s what matters.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 02 Feb 2020 13:59

Indian helicopter acquisition is strange. As per media 200 Ka226 will cost 4 billion dollars.i.e,20 million dollar per helicopter. ALH cost come at around Rs 75 Crore per unit i.e, 10.5 million dollar per unit. November 2019 order for 6 ALH is Rs 275 Cr only around 7 million dollar per unit.

IN NLUH initial RFI was for 4.5 T MTOW class thus excluding Dhruv and in favour of 4.3T naval Panther. And the same is with present limit of 5T.

Initially Dhruv was rejected for being midway between 3T class and 10T class at 5.5T.
While IN has ordered 16 ASW Dhruv version.
A midway can be to procure 30 ALH and in the meantime to develop naval twin engine version of HAL LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 02 Feb 2020 19:31

1. Why does the Navy need 100+ light helicopters anyway? From wiki it has 36 chetaks and a handful of Dhruvs. How/from where are so many helicopters going to be deployed?
2. If they want all helicopters to to be ASW capable then is going with light helis the best route?
3. IIRC 50 of the 200 Ka-226 were going to be allocated to the Navy - what happens to these?
4. With a critical shortage of funds (with IN cutting back on other items like P-8), is this really on top priority?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 03 Feb 2020 05:25

sankum - seems like there is more to the KA-226 purchase than meets the eye. Any chai wallahs know?


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