Indian Military Helicopters

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby RKumar » 09 Feb 2020 02:15

abhik wrote:^^^
Feels like the Russians are buying strategic leverage over us with our money, we buy more so we can buy even more in the future.


If that's the case, then why not buy long-range bombers or getting the right types of equipment for developing No-Clear subs than throwing money on these. Invest money wisely, just don't surrender our interests - negotiate for mutual benefit.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nam » 09 Feb 2020 04:31

If Russians need to be paid for something, GoI can pay them in cash. I'm sure they won't mind


I don't think GoI wants to pay a direct amount for the SSBN support. Based on the amount paid, countries can probably deduce the type of tech Russia has provided.

Larger the amount, greater the amount of tech transfer, lower is our home grown capability.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Feb 2020 05:55

abhik wrote:^^^
Feels like the Russians are buying strategic leverage over us with our money, we buy more so we can buy even more in the future.

Or may be they are doing proper Banya giri seeing that we are mugs. Strategic leverage evokes some grandiose plans which I cannot see...what you describe is good business...

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby pankajs » 09 Feb 2020 10:44

GOI or Russia trying to gain "strategic" leverage over the other using a piddi platform that has a "workable" desi alternative does not work.

Someone did comment on twitter that the cost per heli was on the higher side but I did not personally check his numbers. It could only mean GOI making extra payments and is getting some unstated tech-transfer in this or some other domain.

For Jet engines, etc GOI is openly inviting collaboration so this must be something far more "strategic". India hasn't mastered all military tech and there are areas were Russian help would be very helpful to speed up our development if they are willing.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 09 Feb 2020 14:07

Vivek K wrote:
Khalsa wrote:The Ka-226 buys a strategic leverage. Nothing less and Nothing more.

Its been the best day of my life to know that LUH has achieved IOC. We here at BR went semi-nuts the day LUH engines were started in a tethered mode inside a concrete pit. Today the little buddy has achieved IOC. Lets re-joice as the beginning of the end has set. The end of importing light helis.

Is it worth it to buy strategic leverage? What if someone bids higher?


Saar no one outside is going to buy that chopper except us.
The leverage comes becomes Kamov is unable to sell the numbers being procured by us.

Let me put this in another way.

I will buy your product in numbers that no one else can even dream of buying at a price that will make you smile.
This will lead to supporting thousands of jobs etc and keeping folks employed in Russia etc and officials well fed.
You will give me x number of veto votes + z number of calls in the Permanent Sec council etc.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 09 Feb 2020 17:22

With Ru eveything is available..at a price of course. All nations have their prices ,generally a bit higher than Ru ware.The difference is that with Ru there are little if any strings attached and the menu is exhaustive,more items on offer than any other nation, if we only had the money..

The LUH development is a milestone but as with so many products developed, seamless production is another matter.Look at Tejas,etc. It's more difficult with combat machines than missiles. However,even in the pvt. sector entities like Tatas can build helos,shells being made for Sikorsky.
With Dhruv,LCH,LUH and in the future MH, the maturity of the helo division is increasing.Where we still have a long way to go is perfecting naval variants/ specialised designs, which are v.complex in nature.

The govt. must also support the helo division with decent orders.Unless there are large orders for each tranche,40 to 60 at least each time,economy of scale will not be achieved.With the above mentioned LUH and LCH, at least 200 of each are needed and the govt. should declare the number and phased production timelines enabling production facilities to maximise output.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 09 Feb 2020 20:33

Indigenous products and production lines should never be exposed to this proposed "leverage" with Russia. What they need is commitment and a steady stream of revenue. Every billion that is slated for a phoren competitor throws uncertainty on the Indian MIC.

The Ka226 is backtracking on a local industry that had been exemplary since Dhruv. For us to even think of a phoren medium or light utility helo means no full commitment for even an established Indian pipeline.

This kind of impact is insidious. If HAL's successful helo division cannot command 100% GOI support then what of the aircraft arm with MWF, ORCA, TEDBF and AMCA? Any one or all of them can be starved of funds and resources at any given time with a phony MII screwdrivergiri project like MMRCA 2.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kartik » 13 Feb 2020 04:42

Airbus Helicopters still chasing trio of Indian contracts

Airbus Helicopters is still hunting for orders from the Indian military which, if successful, could see multiple new production lines established in the country.

At present, New Delhi is running three separate procurement contests for a combined total of almost 250 rotorcraft.

The smallest of these is a 14-unit requirement from the Indian coastguard for search and rescue helicopters for which the airframer is offering the H225M, against likely competition from Sikorsky’s S-92.

If Airbus Helicopters wins, the Super Pumas would be built at its Marignane site in the south of France, said Fabrice Cagnat, vice-president of strategy and marketing Asia-Pacific, at a Singapore air show briefing.

However, victory in two other Indian contests – the Naval Utility Helicopter (NUH) and Naval Multi-Role Helicopter (NMRH) programmes, for 111 and 123 aircraft, respectively – would require significant levels of local assembly.

The more valuable contest is for the NMRH, which Airbus Helicopters is addressing with the H225M.

....

Cagnat points out that in the event of a NUH contract win, Panther production would relocate entirely to India, but the rotorcraft would remain an Airbus Helicopters product.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Feb 2020 06:06

You can never buy friendship - works on a personal level and between nations. Ka-226 brings nothing to India and should be canceled. Build your industry, create INDIAN jobs and the world will fall in line,

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby abhik » 13 Feb 2020 08:08

In other news it appears that we are signing the deal for SIX Apaches for the IA at $900M+. While LCH is still waiting for orders, what is the opposite of lungi dance?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 13 Feb 2020 09:14

abhik wrote:In other news it appears that we are signing the deal for SIX Apaches for the IA at $900M+. While LCH is still waiting for orders, what is the opposite of lungi dance?

Shitting in our pants.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Nikhil T » 14 Feb 2020 02:30

Vivek K wrote:
abhik wrote:In other news it appears that we are signing the deal for SIX Apaches for the IA at $900M+. While LCH is still waiting for orders, what is the opposite of lungi dance?

Shitting in our pants.


Looking at our helicopter procurement, we should patent how to grab defeat from jaws of victory. With an excellent indigenous platform (Dhruv) and the ecosystem that spawned from it (WSI, Rudra, LCH, LUH, IMRH), we have decided to invest our precious resources in procuring foreign helis like Ka 226 and Apaches. Per media reports, both these buys are to "purchase" influence with Russia and US, but this is a high price to pay.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 Feb 2020 06:33

Agree with all of the above posters.
Sigh !!

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sum » 14 Feb 2020 08:34

Nikhil T wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Shitting in our pants.


Looking at our helicopter procurement, we should patent how to grab defeat from jaws of victory. With an excellent indigenous platform (Dhruv) and the ecosystem that spawned from it (WSI, Rudra, LCH, LUH, IMRH), we have decided to invest our precious resources in procuring foreign helis like Ka 226 and Apaches. Per media reports, both these buys are to "purchase" influence with Russia and US, but this is a high price to pay.

^^ 400% agree

10 years back, after hearing about the ALH and upcoming LCH/LUH/Rudra/WSI etc), I would have thought that we would be fully self sufficient in helos atleast by 2020.
But, now that 2020 arrived, it looks like the reverse with more and more imports even in the helo space :-?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby chola » 14 Feb 2020 09:43

abhik wrote:In other news it appears that we are signing the deal for SIX Apaches for the IA at $900M+. While LCH is still waiting for orders, what is the opposite of lungi dance?


I like Amreeki equipment, I'm making full disclosure. Their stuff is world class and they work like they are world class in our service -- P-8I, C-17, F404, etc.

The Apache is among the best attack helos in the world if not THE best. I've no doubt it'll perform as advertised.

But we better get some pretty substantial "favors" for $150M per helicopter. That money could have bought us 50-60 LCH (I'm basing $15-17M on the LSP costs. But would be even less if mass produced.) It would have solidify the future of that aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Khalsa » 14 Feb 2020 16:58

Here we go to the quality of quantity vs quantity debate .... might as well invite Vivek right now.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kakarat » 16 Feb 2020 15:53


Rakesh
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 20 Feb 2020 20:19

Un-necessary purchase, just like NASAMs, when LCH is available....

6 Apache Helicopter Deal For Indian Army Cleared By Indian Govt
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... -govt.html
20 Feb 2020

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 21 Feb 2020 10:48

Per the above Livefist article, we will be inducting up to 60 Apaches between IAF & IA...nice.

Don't mind it if they can show similar love towards LCH. Shiv Aroor said he is working on an LCH article & will be up soon...prolly will get to know some updates on the program status.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 22:06

https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/stat ... 28224?s=20 ---> Show me another military in the world where two services are operating identical heavy attack helicopters. What utter madness just to keep the IA happy. This is the sort of nonsense the CDS needs to get a grip on, inter-service rivalry is now inter-service war.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 22:44

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1230670754238193664?s=20 ---> Inducted into service in March last year, Indian Air Force's American-origin Chinook helicopters have started getting operationalized in the high-altitude locations including the Siachen glacier area in the Ladakh sector and are ferrying military equipment to higher reaches.

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 21 Feb 2020 23:03

First Look At IAF Chinooks Doing What They Were Chosen For
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2020/02 ... n-for.html
21 Feb 2020

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby nachiket » 22 Feb 2020 01:47

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh84856557/status/1230587750312628224?s=20 ---> Show me another military in the world where two services are operating identical heavy attack helicopters. What utter madness just to keep the IA happy. This is the sort of nonsense the CDS needs to get a grip on, inter-service rivalry is now inter-service war.

I'd go the other way. Why does the IAF need to operate attack helicopters? These are purely CAS assets that can be much better employed by the Army. I would say all Apaches and future LCH acquisitions should be made only for the Army. Move even the 22 that the IAF is acquiring to the army.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ManuJ » 22 Feb 2020 06:09

nachiket wrote:I'd go the other way. Why does the IAF need to operate attack helicopters? These are purely CAS assets that can be much better employed by the Army. I would say all Apaches and future LCH acquisitions should be made only for the Army. Move even the 22 that the IAF is acquiring to the army.

+1

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Zynda » 24 Feb 2020 00:05

Beautiful shot of Rudra
Image
I am sure IA & HAL is aware of it and perhaps has been decided as not a big deal...but the exhausts seem to be exposed with good amount of IR signature (eye balling...not an accurate assessment). Any chances, this will be addressed in the future if it a cause for concern?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 24 Feb 2020 03:39

LCH has IR Suppression System from WR Davis Engineering. I'm sure HAL can integrate with Rudra too if services require it.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2020 06:36

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 90434?s=20 ----> CONFIRMED: Donald Trump confirms that India & US will sign two deals tomorrow in Delhi for 24 MH-60R helicopters for the Indian Navy and six AH-64E Apache helicopters for the Indian Army.

Full details of both deals here--->


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sum » 25 Feb 2020 10:12

6 numbers of Apache( for the IA that too and not a follow on order for IAF) at such huge cost is still a head stretcher for me.

Were the Rudra and LCH so much backward that they couldn't do what gold plated 6 apaches will do?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Thakur_B » 25 Feb 2020 10:33

^^ weren't all attack helicopters were to come under IA control?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sum » 25 Feb 2020 11:35

The 22 being acquired by IAF will be placed under IA after all arrive? So, IA will have 22+6 of this deal in future?
Did either of them order the IOC completed LCH finally?

No idea why separate deals of Apache by both services separately. Anyways, Indian procurement system has never been something I grasp

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 25 Feb 2020 11:52

Thakur_B wrote:^^ weren't all attack helicopters were to come under IA control?


Sir having under control vs whose budget was spent on acquisition.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 25 Feb 2020 23:39

IAF also has a need for the AH-64s.
So not all are for CAS.

Both services have a need and the acquisitions are to fill that.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Feb 2020 00:37

On a lighter note, we have Romeo, and Apache. SOunds a lot like Punjabi pop stars/albums. Perhaps ALH can named either of gabru or jagga. Would be fun to have romeo, apache, gabru blasting al-kha-leed in punjab and rajasthan

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2020 05:50

Khalsa wrote:Here we go to the quality of quantity vs quantity debate .... might as well invite Vivek right now.


Yeah - he has a really strong point - how long will we continue this facade of importing when we have very good options at home. Why does our home industry not have a home advantage?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 26 Feb 2020 05:52

deejay wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ weren't all attack helicopters were to come under IA control?


Sir having under control vs whose budget was spent on acquisition.


Still don't understand the reason for purchasing 6! Can you shed some light on it?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby mody » 26 Feb 2020 15:15

Given the price of imported systems and the numbers that we require of various types of helicopters, I hope better sense prevails in the MoD and IAF, IA and IN, with regards to our current and future requirement of platforms.
Only the capability that we don't have, should be imported.
Currently only the heavy lift and the medium anti-sub helicopters for the navy are not within our capabilities. We don't have a platform, neither do we have the cutting edge sensors that the likes of MH-60R have.

For all other requirements, like LUH, NLUH, armed/combat helicopters etc, we should go the indigenous route only. The medium lift helicopters to replace the Mi-17s, is in development and there is no urgent requirement. We have enough number of Mi-17s in service.
For everything else, the Dhruv, Naval-Dhruv, Rudra, LCH and LUH should be the only options for all the three services. With the numbers required, the costs will come down further, plus the level of indigenisation can also be increased. Plus part of the money spent by the government, will come back to it, in the form of taxes and dividend paid by HAL and also all the private companies involved in the project. Not to mention the employment generation and taxes on the salaries being paid by the people thus employed.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sajaym » 26 Feb 2020 16:28

Whether IA should have got Apaches while Dhruv WSI & LCH are there, is definitely debatable. But whether the IAF should have got the Apaches or not is beyond doubt, especially in the context of the 2-front war. We now have a very potent & proven transport force which can deliver men and materials quickly & effectively in widespread combat theatres -- Chinook, C-130J, C-17 (leaving out the MH-60R for the time being). Currently THE only thing which can support these transporters under fire and deep behind enemy lines (I'm talking about the insertion route, LZs, runways) is the Apache. This is simply because all these birds have the same/similar communication, navigation, ECCM equipment which helps in interoperability with each other and also with Khan's fleet...if the need arises. The only disconnect in the interoperability of these 'golden birds' is the fighter escort part, which is why someone is trying to push in the F-16/F-18s.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby naird » 26 Feb 2020 17:26

Cybaru wrote:
deejay wrote:
Sir having under control vs whose budget was spent on acquisition.


Still don't understand the reason for purchasing 6! Can you shed some light on it?


There is no rhyme or reason. It is a result of a bitter turf way between IA and IAF for a decade. Ultimately Antony who was the defence minister at that time worked out a compromise which is what you are currently looking at.
Hopefully CDS will address these issues in future.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vips » 26 Feb 2020 21:32



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