Indian Military Helicopters

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Cybaru
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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 11 Dec 2015 22:16

JTull wrote:Turbomeca's Ardiden 3C engine has been provided to the Chinese for their AC352.

Ardiden 1 series (Shakti) used by HAL has 1400 shp, while the Ardiden 3 series will be 1700 to 2000 shp.


It sucks to not own IP and portion of that engine and block any sales to competition. Seemingly AVIC and Turbomeca own 50-50% of this new engine called Ardiden 3C, but there is a 3G that is being sold to the Russians. So not sure how you can block any engine that in itself is a derivation of previous work.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ShauryaT » 12 Dec 2015 04:13

rohitvats wrote:As the name suggests, R&O squadrons and flight undertake reconnaissance and observation missions, along with moving senior officers around. For example, the winter patrols along LOC are undertaken by R&O flights. Using Dhruv in such roles will be non-economical.

From what I understand, the Combat Aviation Brigade intended for each Corps will have 1 x R&O squadron, 1 x UH squadron and 1 x Rudra squadron. LCH will fit in the structure as it enters service. In case of Strike Corps, it will be Apaches.
Thanks Rohitvats. I was looking for exactly this part and it was difficult to find, the "role" these light helicopters would play differentiated from Dhruv. While there is a good case for such an R&O role, what I was looking for was a difference in operations cost. Turns out the operations cost for Dhruv is nearly double compared to the KA-226 for such R&O roles. That settles it for me. Thanks.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby John » 12 Dec 2015 04:47

Vivek K wrote:Yes buy the Kamov and be held to ransom for decades.

And the alternative is to pray and hope that LUH flies and gets foc before 2020?? In all seriousness LUH is not going reach production before 2022 and that's being as optimistic as possible.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vivek K » 12 Dec 2015 06:17

Or the other alternative is that you could buy the Kamov and buy one extra and hope or pray that the machine at least has 50% serviceability- which for Russian tech may be optimistic. And if we bet on ourselves, we could master helicopter tech and emerge as a world force in helos.

Or we could remain subservient to foreign countries and mired in a force with extremely poor serviceability and cannibalization as a formal practice to keep some percentage of the fleet in the air.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby srai » 12 Dec 2015 08:40

Half-half is ok as long as the IA and IAF don't try to kill off indigenous efforts once they get their hands on an import. The IAF tried very hard to kill off HTT-40 once they got PC-7II. The IA keeps ordering T-90 even when much superior Arjun is around. It remains to be seen whether LUH is ordered once Ka-226 import happens.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 12 Dec 2015 12:29

The KA-226 has French engines.Operating it shouldn't be too difficult,it passed all tests with flying colours and was selected on merit.There's no need to b*tch about it simply because its Russian! The need also is extremely acute. The Chetaks,Cheetals,etc. based upon the vintage Allouette-3 are very long in the tooth,crash often and should've been replaced at least 5 years ago.

The problem gents is that HAL's earlier experience in trainers was simply disastrous,killing over 20 IAF pilots and rookies . In desperation it had to buy the PC-7. What confidence has anyone with HAL's paper aircraft,the HTT-40,that has never flown,whose engine hasn't been selected yet and whose IJT is another turkey ,crashed twice,yet to pass its flying tests?

When HAL delivers a good product,like the ALH/Dhruv,the services have ordered it in bulk. It took some time for HAL to realsie that the IN's helos required folding rotors,etc.,and had to be "navalised".Once this was done orders came.So the moral of the story for our DPSUs is to deliver a good product and orders will definitely follow. The LCH ,which is flying,has been extensively tested in "hot and high" conditions,high alts,from reports has made the grade and it looks like it HAL has another winner ,with at least 70-100 to be confirmed/built.

If HAL can deliver the yet to fly LUH,supposedly having an obesity problem right now-but which can be fixed,is tested in full and certified,orders will surely follow.The LUH market for mil and civil applications is anywhere between 300-400.Only 200 KA-226s are in its initial order.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 12 Dec 2015 13:40

Ka-226 is going to be an exciting induction to our armed forces.

- The recent news mentions Indian Navy, but this is a new development as all existing reports refer to IA and IAF alone. Being of the same Kamov lineage, one expects these choppers to be 'Navy ready' - for one it has a robust wheeled undercarriage. However, this should be confirmed as military designs have more than meets the eye.

- The other contenders - Fennec and HAL LUH - do not have wheels which are required to move the chopper from deck to hangar, and also to compensate for landing shocks from ship motion.

- The unique aspect is the interchangeable mission pod, which hopefully we can design and manufacture independently, with own IP:

ASW mission pod
SAR mission pod
AEW mission pod etc
Armed recce pod with Machine guns and rocket pods

Image


The cabin measures 2.35m-long, 1.34m-wide and 1.4m-high. It offers a volume of 5.4m3 and is fitted with mooring equipment for securing cargo and folding seats for accommodating troops.

A total of 1,200kg of cargo can be transported by the helicopter inside the cabin and it can carry 1,500kg load on external sling. The maximum take-off weight with under-slung load is 3,800kg.


I like the rear door, and no tail rotor:

Image

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby sankum » 12 Dec 2015 13:55

Naval version of Ka 226 will be best choice for IN as it is already on order for IA/IAF.

Arms lobbies are already on with propaganda in media that there will be one more third production line for NLUH which will be western apart from Ka 226 and HAL LUH.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 12 Dec 2015 13:56

Aditya G, AFAIK, small skid attached wheels to move helicopters with skids are easy to develop and are in use the world over.

Image

Many more examples if you image search "Helicopters with skids and wheels"

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby BharadwajV » 12 Dec 2015 17:40

Dhruv has em'.
Image
And we will be getting the "Hot and High ready" Ka-226T
Its creators maintain that this helicopter compares favourably with its competitors on the global arms market and is ideal for reconnaissance, transporting loads and carrying out search and rescue operations in inaccessible regions. Thanks to its coaxial rotor system, the Ka-226T has a big thrust capacity and a high rate of climb, which increases the helicopter’s static ceiling. The aerodynamic symmetry and lack of cross coupling in the control channels make it easier to pilot the helicopter, which is especially important in low-altitude flying. Such a machine is more manoeuvrable across the whole range of speeds. The Ka-226T helicopter is ideally suited to missions in mountainous areas and in high temperatures.

With a maximum take-off weight of 3,600 kg, it can carry a 1,200 kg payload in its transport compartment – one-third of its take-off weight! With an underslung load, the Ka-226T can carry 1.5 tonnes. The helicopter’s crew is one person. It can take up to seven passengers on board. The machine’s cruising speed is 220 kph. Its practical ceiling is 5,700 m, while its range is 600 km with basic fuel tanks and 750 km with additional tanks. An expanded range of capabilities in terms of precision manoeuvring, rate of climb and flight altitude (up to 7,000 m) can be supplied at the request of the client. This means that the Ka-226T can carry out rescue and transport operations on the slopes of the world’s highest mountains, flying almost to their s ummits.

The helicopter is surprisingly forgiving and does not need to be housed in a hangar. It is equally good when operating in temperatures from +50 to -50 degrees. To land, all it needs is a patch of relatively even surface measuring 15 by 15 metres if there is open access. This could be a car park, a school playground, a playing field, or simply a piece of waste ground. If there are no open approaches, it still doesn’t need a very big spot – 35 by 35 metres. A few people with chainsaws descending from the helicopter by rope could clear an area like this literally within an hour, even in the jungle.

The Ka-226T’s excellent flight characteristics and its high level of durability are due in part to the fact that it has two modern Arrius 2G1 engines manufactured by Turbomeca, which have enough power, which is critically important in high mountainous areas and in regions with a hot climate. Even if one of the engines fails or is damaged, the helicopter can continue flying on one.

Incidentally, the Ka-226T performed very well during the evaluation trials conducted earlier in India as part of the tendering process. These trials showed clearly that the Ka-226T embodies the best achievements of the Kamov school of design – modular construction, which makes the helicopter multifunctional, a simple piloting technique, a low level of vibration, a high degree of reliability and safety in flight, and easy maintenance.

http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/02/13/ka-226_battles_through_in_india_14810

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 12 Dec 2015 22:21

Wheels: Yes, i have seen them on Cheetahs over here. One on each skid. The crew pivots the chopper and rolls it to wherever required. These are clamped on the skid - as visible in the picture above.

Naval choppers require wheels:

- so that they can be dragged into the hangar by the rail.
- to facilitate landing on the moving deck (ships may be moving forward, sideways or both relative to the chopper)
- the wheels are like shopping cart wheels, turn a wide range to facilitate handling
- wheels also have shock absorbers (doubt skids have that)

I dont think skids or clamped wheels will serve all functions.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby PratikDas » 13 Dec 2015 11:26

IndiaToday.in : IAF raises alarm, 100 hours before India loses its sole heavy lift copter
Jugal R Purohit
New Delhi, December 12, 2015 | Posted by Aastha Dass | UPDATED 10:29 IST

Alarm bells are ringing inside the closed walls of the Vayu Bhawan - headquarters of the Indian Air Force (IAF)in the national capital and the sound perhaps isn't enough for the functionaries of the Ministry of Defence(MoD) to take note.

Alarm bells are ringing inside the closed walls of the Vayu Bhawan - headquarters of the Indian Air Force (IAF)in the national capital and the sound perhaps isn't enough for the functionaries of the Ministry of Defence(MoD) to take note.
Whether or not the bells register and irrespective of the time they do - at stake is India's ability to lift and drop heavy load in the form of missiles, artillery guns, a huge body of combat-ready troops, road building equipment at rugged locations. The only operational heavy lift helicopter in the IAF's inventory, the sole Mi26, now stands only 100 hours away from completing its set number of flying hours after which its machinery can no longer operate unless a life revision is undertaken - a process which at the minimum will take six months.

Replacing the Mi26, either from the grounded fleet or by purchasing (recently ordered) the American Chinook choppers is unlikely to materialise any time soon.

An alarmed IAF has, to preserve the flying hours on the sole chopper, decided to cease training flights on the Mi26. "Flying will be carried out only in extreme cases of requirement and as for our trainees, we will have to them abroad, there is no option," the source said. The story did not take such a dastardly all of a sudden.

Aware of the capabilities that these helicopters bring to a nation, India's military planners ensured the IAF became among the earliest buyers of the Mi26 when it was launched in the early 80s by the erstwhile Soviet union. The four contracted planes came into the air force's fold between 1986 and 1989. From then on till December 2010 when one of the four crashed at the technical area of the Jammu airport and had to be written off, these planes lifted bridges, crashed planes, artillery guns, missiles and equipment to distant locations in the north eastern region and the upper reaches of Jammu and Kashmir. Though troubled by a tough maintenance regime, the remaining three carried on, part of the Chandigarh-based 126 Helicopter Flight 'Feather Weights'.

"Since 2013, when the operational life of the two choppers which came in the first batch in 1986 ended, efforts have been made to grant them an extended life by carrying out an overhaul and life revision. These efforts are yet to yield," said a source. Insiders say the IAF was hopeful of the deal coming through by early 2015. None came. The sole chopper kept the flame alive by contributing to relief and rebuilding operations in Uttarakhand and Jammu and Kashmir, over the last two years.

"The Russians are demanding too much money. It is very difficult to justify," is all a top source would reveal when asked the reason behind the delay in finalising the contract. These negotiations, between the Ministry of Defence and the manufacturers have dragged on. Indecision, the other malaise India's defence management frequently suffers from, also played its part.

It was in October 2012 that the MoD decided to purchase 15 Chinook CH47F helicopters, which would replace the Russian giant, which the IAF calls 'Bheem'. The contract for American replacement was not signed until September of this year.

"Plan was to have a seamless transition with the Mi26 retiring and Chinook, though not as big a load carrier, coming in but this delay has contributed in creating this gap we stare at," explained a helicopter pilot.

India, by itself, lacks the capability to carry out the process. "Experts will have to come in from the side of the equipment manufacturers (Russia), make the planes airworthy again so that they can fly to their destination of overhaul. Unlike others, the Mi26 is too large to get inside an aircraft and be ferried," explained Air Vice Marshal Manmohan Bahadur (Retd).


Upon querying, the IAF spokesperson stated, "The lone aircraft is fully airworthy with sufficient flying hours to meet contingencies. The deal for further extension is under progress."

In June this year, the IAF had clarified that there was no plan 'to upgrade Mi26 helicopters. Case for overhaul and life revision is under process.'

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Cybaru » 13 Dec 2015 12:37

Issue when you don't make your own stuff. This is the story for every imported item. Ground it; Sensationalize; Create reason for expensive overhaul budget; perhaps even pocket some cash if dalals are involved.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 13 Dec 2015 13:05

This Mi 26 problem is an old one.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Aditya G » 13 Dec 2015 14:15

There is no replacement of a Mi-26 in the world. Us buying Chinooks to replace Mi-26 is total BS.

Afaik it was Mi-26s which made Operation Falcon possible.

However, Mi-26 is a specialist aircraft - maybe the likes of Pawan Hans should buy these instead, and lease them to civil and military operators as per need - for India and other foreign countries as well.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2015 10:35

For sev. years now anyone flying into Cgarh would've noticed them lying idle on the tarmac. I remember a rather old report of an offer for new ones replacing the old.However,the US lobby is perhaps the real reason ,Chinooks the carrot,why the MI-26s are now inoperable and the IAF equally culpable,well knowing how long it takes to get a deal deal sealed for a new system,made little urgent noises over the last few years to get the helos repaired/upgraded. This,even with the numerous occasions when the MI-26 was called upon for disaster relief,U'Khand tragedy,Nepal,plus the usual heavy-lift ops for the IAF/IA.

There is now a new version in production,the MI-26T,with a supposedly smaller crew.new engines,affordable cost,etc. perhaps Mr.Modi should inquire about the new MI-26s when he visits Russia. Ironically,several Chinooks have been shot down in Afghanistan and had to be rescued/salvaged by ....MI-26s,which carried the downed Chinooks back!

The MI-26s were inducted almost 30 years ago and have served us very well.Surely the IAF should've got its act together in better form.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby ramana » 15 Dec 2015 03:39

Philip,
You know IAF does no wrong.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby rohitvats » 15 Dec 2015 13:29

Philip wrote:For sev. years now anyone flying into Cgarh would've noticed them lying idle on the tarmac. I remember a rather old report of an offer for new ones replacing the old.However,the US lobby is perhaps the real reason ,Chinooks the carrot,why the MI-26s are now inoperable and the IAF equally culpable,well knowing how long it takes to get a deal deal sealed for a new system,made little urgent noises over the last few years to get the helos repaired/upgraded. This,even with the numerous occasions when the MI-26 was called upon for disaster relief,U'Khand tragedy,Nepal,plus the usual heavy-lift ops for the IAF/IA.

There is now a new version in production,the MI-26T,with a supposedly smaller crew.new engines,affordable cost,etc. perhaps Mr.Modi should inquire about the new MI-26s when he visits Russia. Ironically,several Chinooks have been shot down in Afghanistan and had to be rescued/salvaged by ....MI-26s,which carried the downed Chinooks back!

The MI-26s were inducted almost 30 years ago and have served us very well.Surely the IAF should've got its act together in better form.


Don't you have too many assumptions baked into your post above?

How do you know IAF did not raise the red-flag earlier with respect to Mi-26 serviceability and availability? How is an article in the newspaper same as IAF waking up to the issue?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 15 Dec 2015 14:34

Philip wrote:However,the US lobby is perhaps the real reason ,Chinooks the carrot,why the MI-26s are now inoperable and the IAF equally culpable,well knowing how long it takes to get a deal deal sealed for a new system,made little urgent noises over the last few years to get the helos repaired/upgraded.

There is now a new version in production,the MI-26T,with a supposedly smaller crew.new engines,affordable cost,etc. perhaps Mr.Modi should inquire about the new MI-26s when he visits Russia.


Supposedly affordable. To quote the article -

"The Russians are demanding too much money. It is very difficult to justify,"

And that's for a mere life extension.

Ironically,several Chinooks have been shot down in Afghanistan and had to be rescued/salvaged by ....MI-26s,which carried the downed Chinooks back!

No doubt we'll need a bigger helicopter to lift the Mi-26s when they crash. And an even heavier one to lift this new one, when it crashes.

The serviceability for the Mi-26 and its utilization has been equally poor.


Serviceability of the Helicopter suffered in the 90s, at one point of time in 1995-96, as many as three of the four helicopters remaining on ground. Serviceability gradually fell in the mid 90s from a high of 61% down to 40%. The helicopters also remained underutilized. Against a projected utilization rate of 50 hours per month per helicopter, the average utilization hovered around 11 to 22 hours per month.

Due to low utilisation, the plan to procure two more helicopters was dropped. For the total fleet of four helicopters, twelve engines were procured.
- Link

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2015 16:17

Helicopters 30 years old! How many of us have tried to nurse a car that long and know what repairs and spares cost. One might as well get Harry Potter and his magic wand to bring them back to life. Instead of trying to eke out a final gasp of life of these old helos at high cost,one might as well buy new ones.Maybe I've assumed a lot,but why has this issue languished for so long? There have been umpteen articles about the border infrastructure getting delayed because of the lack of heavy eqpt. which can only be airlifted by heavy-lift helos.The IAF/IA have bought dozens of MI-17Vs and will buy more in the future.Why is this not on the list? The current cost is estimated at around $18M. You can buy 2 MI-26s for the cost of 1 Chinook.
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopt ... -Mi-26/284

General Information
Mi-26T, the world’s best line production helicopter in terms of load capacity, is unrivaled in cost-performance parameters. This type helicopters are intensively used for all sorts of operations: transportation, evacuation, fire fighting etc. Mi-26T is capable of carrying up to 20 tons of cargo inside fuselage or on the external sling.

Modifications:
Mi-26TS - a Mi-26T version, used in People's Republic of China.

Mi-26T2 - an upgraded version of the helicopter, Mi-26T2 is fitted with a new BREO-26 avionics suite and glass cockpit with five multifunctional LCD displays, new digital autopilot, and NAVSTAR/GLONASS supported navigation system. The Mi-26T2’s array of on-board equipment ensures the helicopter can operate in any part of the world, and ensures it can perform flights to international standards. The latest avionics suite fitted also makes it possible to reduce the number of crew needed from 5 to 2 people, plus an operator should the external sling be in use.The helicopter can be used to quickly transport up to[b] 82 troops and their equipment, as well as a wide range of heavy-weight combat vehicles.The helicopter has an operating range of approximately 800km and a maximum range 1,905km when fitted with auxiliary fuel tanks.
[/b]


Chinook CH-47:
US$38.55 million (CH-47F, FY13)
Crew: three (pilot, copilot, flight engineer)
Capacity:
33–55 troops or
24 litters and 3 attendants or
28,000 lb (12,700 kg) cargo
Range: 400 nmi



For the record:
Afghanistan Chinook recovery
In the spring of 2002, a civilian Mi-26 was leased to recover two U.S. Army MH-47E Chinook helicopters from a mountain in Afghanistan. The Chinooks, operated by the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment, had been employed in Operation Anaconda, an effort to drive al Qaeda and Taliban fighters out of the Shahi-Kot Valley and surrounding mountains. They ended up stranded on the slopes above Sirkhankel at altitudes of 2,600 metres (8,500 ft) and 3,100 metres (10,200 ft). While the second was too badly damaged to recover, the first was determined to be repairable and estimated to weigh 12,000 kilograms (26,000 lb) with fuel, rotors, and non-essential equipment removed. That weight exceeded the maximum payload of 9,100 kilograms (20,100 lb) at an altitude of 2,600 metres (8,500 ft) of the U.S. military's Sikorsky CH-53E.[4]

The Mi-26 was located through Skylink Aviation in Toronto, which had connections with a Russian company called Sportsflite that operated three civilian Mi-26 versions called "Heavycopters". One of the aircraft, doing construction and firefighting work in neighboring Tajikistan, was leased for $300,000; it lifted the Chinook with a hook and flew it to Kabul, then later to Bagram Air Base, Afghanistan to ship to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, U.S. for repairs. Six months later, a second U.S. Army CH-47 that had made a hard landing 100 miles (160 km) north of Bagram at an altitude of 1,200 metres (3,900 ft) was recovered by another Sportsflite-operated Mi-26 Heavycopter.


So if and when our Chinooks are downed for some reason or the other in the future,we'll jhave to hire an MI-26 to rescue them! :rotfl:
Last edited by Philip on 15 Dec 2015 16:23, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 16 Dec 2015 06:19

Philip wrote:Helicopters 30 years old! How many of us have tried to nurse a car that long and know what repairs and spares cost.

Right... that's also a valid argument for preparing the Il-76's funeral. Our '30 year old' Mi-8/17s haven't dropped dead yet, despite significantly higher utilization.

Maybe I've assumed a lot,but why has this issue languished for so long?

The Russian life extension has been deemed to be too expensive. And the Chinook's selection happened just three years ago.

There have been umpteen articles about the border infrastructure getting delayed because of the lack of heavy eqpt. which can only be airlifted by heavy-lift helos.The IAF/IA have bought dozens of MI-17Vs and will buy more in the future.Why is this not on the list? The current cost is estimated at around $18M. You can buy 2 MI-26s for the cost of 1 Chinook.
http://www.aircraftcompare.com/helicopt ... -Mi-26/284

So the Mi-26 costs the same as the Mi-17 (also $18M acc. to the same site)? :roll:

And you can probably operate three Chinooks for the cost of one Mi-26T. The Chinook was found to be cheaper, period.

US-made Chinook Outshines Russian Mi-26 as Lowest Bidder for IAF’s Heavy Lift Chopper Deal

So if and when our Chinooks are downed for some reason or the other in the future,we'll jhave to hire an MI-26 to rescue them! :rotfl:

As opposed to the Mi-26T - when it crashes, only the crew will need to be rescued. Coordinates to the crash-site can simply to be sold to the highest bidding scrap-dealer, since the aircraft will be unrecoverable. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby shiv » 16 Dec 2015 06:30

Does the Mi 26 have FADEC and fuel/mission management systems? What is the MTBO of the Mi 26 engines?

If one were to generate a database of all the heavy loads carried by IAF heavy lift helos and arrive at an "average" heavy load that could be carried by both Mi 26 and Chinook, would the fuel consumption per km be the same or different?

Without knowing the details there is no point comparing Wiki specs.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby vishvak » 16 Dec 2015 07:34

Coordinates to the crash-site can simply to be sold to the highest bidding scrap-dealer, since the aircraft will be unrecoverable.

Makes no sense, for if MI-26T crashes while carrying a crashed Chinook then scrap dealer will demand 2nd crash discount on Chinook. Point is Mi-26T can lift anything that Chinook can, and more.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby VinodTK » 16 Dec 2015 07:39

India Plans Indigenous Helo Engine
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), India’s state-owned aerospace company, plans to develop an indigenous turboshaft jet engine for 7,000-lb and 10,000- to 16,000-lb class helicopters, a move one official believes might help the country become a “global hub of aeronautical development.”
Hindustan announced its plan during a first run of its latest turbofan engine for military trainer and business jets. Attendee and Indian Defence Minister Manhoar Parrikar said that an indigenous helicopter engine might help address India’s upcoming need for roughly 4,000 to 6,000 such engines in the next 15 to 20 years.

In its twin-engine configuration, the Hindustan Turbo Shaft Engine (HTSE-1200) will be used in airframes comparable in class to the light combat and advanced light helicopters relied on heavily by the Indian armed forces. But those helicopters currently use the Shakti, an engine custom-designed for Hindustan by France’s Turbomeca.

Hindustan and Turbomeca also signed a joint venture agreement on June 18 at the Paris Air Show to build an MRO facility within 60 km of Bengaluru. The facility will support the Shakti and Turbomeca’s TM333—the engine initially installed on the Druhv light combat helicopter.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 16 Dec 2015 08:28

vishvak wrote:Makes no sense, for if MI-26T crashes while carrying a crashed Chinook then scrap dealer will demand 2nd crash discount on Chinook. Point is Mi-26T can lift anything that Chinook can, and more.


What happens if it crashes during regular ops - IAF chopper crashes in Jammu, 9 injured. How do you recover a crashed Mi-26? (Of course, this is a pointless line of inquiry, the aircraft will likely to have to be written off, but then Philip didn't bring up the issue because of its practical considerations.)

Yes the Mi-26 can carry more, that has never been in doubt. But the IAF clearly prefers an aircraft that can carry up to 12 tons but is still economical enough and reliable enough to employ on day-in-day-out basis, and is willing to sacrifice that extra load carrying capability for that.

BTW, even the Mi-26's excess lifting capability fades with altitude.


Why the Chinook is efficient and the Mi-26 is a heavy-lifting guzzler - Vivek Ahuja

At sea-level, there is virtually no comparison between the CH-47F and the Mi-26 for lift capacity. The Mi-26 can lift twice the maximum possible payload capacity (zero fuel and zero crew) of the CH-47F. But that capacity trails of with altitude. The maximum lifting capacity of the Mi-26 starts to drop off after about 3,000 ft altitude. And the drop-off is faster than that of the Chinook. The Chinook overtakes the Mi-26 lift capacity at ~21,000 ft in ideal terms.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 16 Dec 2015 09:19

shiv wrote:Does the Mi 26 have FADEC and fuel/mission management systems? What is the MTBO of the Mi 26 engines?

If one were to generate a database of all the heavy loads carried by IAF heavy lift helos and arrive at an "average" heavy load that could be carried by both Mi 26 and Chinook, would the fuel consumption per km be the same or different?

Without knowing the details there is no point comparing Wiki specs.


Mi 26 is a great machine and is unmatched for a helicopter. Only Russians could make it fly!

However, for 30 years we operated Mi 26s (04 of them) but Russians could not solve the problems of IAF. Super short engine MTBO, ferry / cargo / ship to Russia for repair and overhaul, etc makes it difficult, expensive and a constant headache for operators outside CIS. The sheer eco system required to operate this behemoth does not exist anywhere outside.

02 of these (01 undercarriage broken and 01 crashed in 2010) are not available. After 30 years of using them IAF realises that heavy lift helicopters are required but it cannot be the Mi 26 unless we have an ecosystem in India which can support this big bird.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 16 Dec 2015 12:29

The new modernized/upgraded MI-26Ts are in series production. There's no need for blinkers, barring the form,the helo is almost a brand new design. Crew of only two ,glass cockpit,new engines,etc. ,and at half the cost of a Chinook.It's upto the IAF to decide given its budget.In fact the IAF could operate both.Larger numbers of Chinooks for special forces and MIs for the real heavylift ops which the Chinook can't. That the MI-26 has served for 30 years shows its toughness and longevity.Typical of Russian wares,like our MIG-21s,still soldiering on for 6 decades. Given our woeful border infrastructure ,which is years behind schedule and analysts say that the PLA can rapidly induct 15 divisions into Tibet,we need to maximize our helo/airborne support capabilities,and finish the border roads,etc. asap.There are few options.The absence of the MI-26 capability will tell.more C-130Js are also required both for spl forces and logistic support.

The DM said that thousands of helo engines would be required,but there are so many helo types in service. One would require several types of engines for the firang light,medium and heavy types,apart from the LCH and Dhruvs. Since the majority of engines required will be for 3 types,Dhruv/Rudra/LCH,the LUH/ KA-226,and the MI-17V,HAL should see which of these foreign engines can either be totally built in India under TOT at a cheaper price than imports or for it to develop desi alternatives for the same.Ultimately they have to be cheaper and easier to support. There is little point in developing an engine at 1.5 times the cost of a firang equiv and place orders in small batches which will result in a spares/support problem.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 16 Dec 2015 12:54

Philip, then why is China developing the new Heavy Lift helicopter with Russia?

http://atimes.com/2015/09/china-russia-to-co-develop-heavy-lift-helicopter-in-2016/

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 16 Dec 2015 13:23

Philip wrote:The new modernized/upgraded MI-26Ts are in series production. There's no need for blinkers, barring the form,the helo is almost a brand new design. Crew of only two ,glass cockpit,new engines,etc. ,and at half the cost of a Chinook.It's upto the IAF to decide given its budget.In fact the IAF could operate both.Larger numbers of Chinooks for special forces and MIs for the real heavylift ops which the Chinook can't. That the MI-26 has served for 30 years shows its toughness and longevity.Typical of Russian wares,like our MIG-21s,still soldiering on for 6 decades. Given our woeful border infrastructure ,which is years behind schedule and analysts say that the PLA can rapidly induct 15 divisions into Tibet,we need to maximize our helo/airborne support capabilities,and finish the border roads,etc. asap.There are few options.The absence of the MI-26 capability will tell.more C-130Js are also required both for spl forces and logistic support.

The DM said that thousands of helo engines would be required,but there are so many helo types in service. One would require several types of engines for the firang light,medium and heavy types,apart from the LCH and Dhruvs. Since the majority of engines required will be for 3 types,Dhruv/Rudra/LCH,the LUH/ KA-226,and the MI-17V,HAL should see which of these foreign engines can either be totally built in India under TOT at a cheaper price than imports or for it to develop desi alternatives for the same.Ultimately they have to be cheaper and easier to support. There is little point in developing an engine at 1.5 times the cost of a firang equiv and place orders in small batches which will result in a spares/support problem.


If Mi 26 is so cheap, then why was it not L1 in the bid?

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Karan M » 16 Dec 2015 13:47

VinodTK wrote:India Plans Indigenous Helo Engine
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), India’s state-owned aerospace company, plans to develop an indigenous turboshaft jet engine for 7,000-lb and 10,000- to 16,000-lb class helicopters, a move one official believes might help the country become a “global hub of aeronautical development.”
Hindustan announced its plan during a first run of its latest turbofan engine for military trainer and business jets. Attendee and Indian Defence Minister Manhoar Parrikar said that an indigenous helicopter engine might help address India’s upcoming need for roughly 4,000 to 6,000 such engines in the next 15 to 20 years.

In its twin-engine configuration, the Hindustan Turbo Shaft Engine (HTSE-1200) will be used in airframes comparable in class to the light combat and advanced light helicopters relied on heavily by the Indian armed forces. But those helicopters currently use the Shakti, an engine custom-designed for Hindustan by France’s Turbomeca.

Hindustan and Turbomeca also signed a joint venture agreement on June 18 at the Paris Air Show to build an MRO facility within 60 km of Bengaluru. The facility will support the Shakti and Turbomeca’s TM333—the engine initially installed on the Druhv light combat helicopter.


This is what you get when a sensible Govt gives clearance for proper R&D.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 18 Dec 2015 12:11

Sorry Viv,the IAF and MOD think differently from you,and are upgrading all 27 IL-76/78s to the new series std. thereby extending their life by another 20 yrs! That shows the toughness and longevity of the bird. The KA-226 was chosen after a contest and won hands down. Why the b*tching? More Ru wares are being sought,5 S-400 batteries,a second Akula-2 and hundreds of KA-226s. The PM is sealing the deals during his visit to Moscow.Media reports. Great news.

Ru and China are going to develop a new heavy helo to meet China's requirements.IT may be something in between the MI-26 and MI-17..That 200 are being planned is a pointer to where they will be used.We need to augment our heavlift capability as well.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Viv S » 18 Dec 2015 14:03

Philip wrote:Sorry Viv,the IAF and MOD think differently from you,and are upgrading all 27 IL-76/78s to the new series std. thereby extending their life by another 20 yrs! That shows the toughness and longevity of the bird. The KA-226 was chosen after a contest and won hands down. Why the b*tching? More Ru wares are being sought,5 S-400 batteries,a second Akula-2 and hundreds of KA-226s.The PM is sealing the deals during his visit to Moscow.Media reports. Great news.

Sorry Philip, the IAF and MOD think differently from you, and are buying the Chinook having rejected the Mi-26T. Why the b*tching?

(Pray tell, what does the S-400 and Akula have to do with 'Indian Military Helicopters'?)

Ru and China are going to develop a new heavy helo to meet China's requirements.IT may be something in between the MI-26 and MI-17..That 200 are being planned is a pointer to where they will be used.We need to augment our heavlift capability as well.

I see. The Mi-26 doesn't meet China's requirement so are together developing a new aircraft, but in our case we need to simply buy the Mi-26, requirements be damned.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby JTull » 18 Dec 2015 14:49

Philip wrote:Ru and China are going to develop a new heavy helo to meet China's requirements.IT may be something in between the MI-26 and MI-17..That 200 are being planned is a pointer to where they will be used.We need to augment our heavlift capability as well.


As per Wiki, 7 rotor, 33 tonne capacity helicopter puts it firmly above Mi-26 which is rated at 20 tonnes.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 18 Dec 2015 17:10

This is going to be a real monster if true.Will carry at least 100 troops,perhaps in a double-deck config. It would be v.int to see how and where China intends deploying them.

Meanwhile Sweden has recd. its first ASW NH-90.This is an extremely versatile multi-role helo and should be frontrunner for the IN for the 100+ ASSW helo requirement.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 90-420159/
Sweden receives first anti-submarine-variant NH90
17 December, 2015
| BY: Beth Stevenson
| London

Sweden has received the first NH Industries (NHI) NH90 transport helicopter designed for anti-submarine warfare (ASW), and has confirmed plans to convert four of its in-service search and rescue (SAR) variants into the same configuration.

From a total Swedish order for 18 NH90s placed in 2001, 11 SAR variants of the tactical transport helicopter (TTH) plus one ASW variant have now been delivered, Flightglobal’s Fleets Analyzer database shows.

Of the former, four will be converted into the ASW configuration, to result in a total of nine of each type in service, NHI’s largest shareholder, Airbus Helicopters, says.

The ASW TTH model for Sweden consists of a customised mission system, including sonar, tactical radar and a high cabin for more internal space for personnel.

“With 260 NH90s already delivered to 13 different nations and nearly 100,000 flying hours in operation, this combat-proven helicopter is now confirming its worth at the hands of the most demanding customers around the globe,” Wolfgang Schoder, head of light and governmental programmes at Airbus Helicopters, says.
[b]
“In terms of versatility and customisability, the Swedish NH90 ASW demonstrates the benefits of an integrated, highly powerful, fly-by-wire helicopter platform. Specially tailored for its maritime missions and the operative environment in the Baltic Sea, this helicopter is best suited for the customer’s requirements.”
[/b]

Fleets Analyzer shows NH90s are in service with the armed forces of Australia, Belgium, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Oman, Spain and Sweden, and also on order for Qatar.

Spain receives second NH90 helicopter
French navy receives 15th NH90 NFH
Finland receives final NH90 troop transport helicopter
French navy NH90s receive ASW approval



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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Vipul » 18 Dec 2015 17:26

US awards contract to provide night vision sensors for Apache.

The US has awarded a military sale contract of $107.8 million to an American global aerospace, defence and security firm to provide India with modernised night vision sensor systems which will help the Indian army destroy adversary threats from extended ranges.

"Our high-performing, reliable sensor system for the Apache helicopter will give Indian Army aviators the ability to acquire, engage and destroy adversary threats from extended ranges," said Mike Taylor, director of international and sustainment programs at Lockheed Martin Missiles and Fire Control.

"The capability that our sensor provides results in enhanced aircraft survivability, pilot safety and mission success," Taylor said.

The US Army has awarded Lockheed Martin a $107.8 million foreign military sale contract to provide Modernised Target Acquisition Designation Sight Night Vision Sensor systems to the Indian Army, the company said in a statement.

The contract includes 23 M-TADS/PNVS systems and spares for India, which extends production at Lockheed Martin facilities in Orlando and Ocala, Florida, through 2019.

Fielded in 2005, M-TADS/PNVS provides Apache pilots with long-range, precision engagement and pilotage capabilities for safe flight during day, night and adverse weather missions.

The contract includes 23 M-TADS/PNVS systems and spares for India, which extends production at Lockheed Martin facilities in Orlando and Ocala, Florida, through 2019.

Fielded in 2005, M-TADS/PNVS provides Apache pilots with long-range, precision engagement and pilotage capabilities for safe flight during day, night and adverse weather missions.

The forward-looking infrared sensors' enhanced image resolution enable Apache aircrews to accurately identify targets and provide situational awareness to ground troops outside of detection ranges, it said.

India has become the 15th international customer of Lockheed's modernised target acquisition designation night vision sensor.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby deejay » 20 Dec 2015 22:53

From Bharat Rakshak main page news links:

http://www.livemint.com/Politics/TiAjQhv4F10i6gZHZ5XfPL/CAG-reproaches-defence-ministry-over-ageing-assets-in-Army-A.html

CAG reproaches defence ministry over ageing assets in Army Aviation Corps
The Army Aviation Corps, created with the main objective of contributing to battlefield success, is plagued with 32% deficiency vis-a-vis its authorised fleet strength

New Delhi: The national auditor on Thursday rapped the defence ministry over ageing assets, some over 40 years old, in the Army Aviation Corps and for failing to provide combat free-fall parachutes to the special forces for over a decade, among other things.

The audit body also criticised the ministry over the shortage of 47% in the holding of BMP infantry combat vehicles in the Indian army. In its report submitted to the parliament, the Comptroller and Auditor General of India said that although the Army Aviation Corps was created with the main objective of contributing to battlefield success by providing guidance to field commanders in applying decisive combat powers, it is plagued with 32% deficiency vis-a-vis its authorised fleet strength.

“The helicopters held are old and ageing, with 52% of the fleet more than 30 years old. The effective availability of helicopters for operations gets further reduced to 40% of the authorisation due to low level of serviceability of the existing fleet,” said the CAG report.

Of the 181 Cheetah/Chetak helicopters held by the Army, 51 were 40 years or older and 78 were between 30-40 years old. The CAG observed that ever since these were approved for de-induction (2002), 23 helicopters had met with accidents.

Despite these shortcomings, Army Aviation Corps could not replace its fleet of reconnaissance and observation helicopters (Cheetah/Chetak), which are due for de-induction since 10th Plan period (2002-2007) onwards, the CAG report added.

Against the 18 schemes related to acquisition of equipment, including helicopters, for the Army Aviation Corps, approved in the 11th and 12th Service Capital Acquisition Plan, only four schemes could be concluded in the nine-year period so far.

“Failure in meeting the targets and objectives of the acquisition plans and tardiness in procurement action were the main reasons denying the Corps to acquire suitable replacement for the old and ageing fleet (sic),” the report added.

A group of army officers’ wives had in March this year urged defence minister Manohar Parrikar to stop the use of “outdated” Cheetah and Chetak helicopters, which have claimed a number of lives. The government had last August scrapped a Rs.6,000 crore tender for procuring 197 light utility helicopters from foreign vendors for the armed forces and decided to allow domestic players to manufacture these helicopters.

This was the third time that this tender was scrapped. The existing fleet of Army Aviation Corps comprises Chetak, Cheetah and Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH). Chetak and Cheetah helicopters were originally manufactured by Aerospatiale, France, and were inducted into service in India in 1969 and 1971, respectively. The helicopters were later indigenously manufactured and delivered by HAL under licensed production since 1977.

The CAG observed that while the desired level of serviceability of assets in Army Aviation Corps was 80%, the overall level of serviceability in respect of R&O (Cheetah/Chetak) Helicopters was only 65% on an average.

“The position of serviceability in respect of Advanced Light Helicopter was more critical at an average of 44% only.”

“The poor serviceability of ALH was despite the fact that the fleet, which was inducted only from 2002 onwards, was relatively new and was designed, developed and manufactured indigenously by HAL,” the CAG said.

It also rapped the defence ministry over shortage of 47%in holding of BMP vehicles. The main reason for the shortfall was the delay in supply of 389 BMPs by the Ordnance Factory Board , which not only adversely affected the operational preparedness of Mechanised Forces/Engineers but also entailed a minimum extra liability of Rs.270.97 crore due to cost escalation, it said.

It also noted that Image Intensifier Sights valued at Rs.22.12 crore for the commanders of T-55 tanks were procured between February, 2011, and June, 2013, after the tank was declared obsolescent in December, 2011.

Also, noting that Combat freefall (CFF) parachutes are required during highly-specialised operations and are vital for the success of the missions carried out by Parachutes Special Forces Battalions of Indian Army, CAG said the army was without these specialised parachutes for over a decade.

“The CFF parachutes developed by DRDO in 2006 could not be successfully productionised by the Ordnance Factory Board even after incurring an expenditure of Rs.10.75 crore,” it said.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby NRao » 20 Dec 2015 23:02

JTull wrote:
Philip wrote:Ru and China are going to develop a new heavy helo to meet China's requirements.IT may be something in between the MI-26 and MI-17..That 200 are being planned is a pointer to where they will be used.We need to augment our heavlift capability as well.


As per Wiki, 7 rotor, 33 tonne capacity helicopter puts it firmly above Mi-26 which is rated at 20 tonnes.


They have been at it since 2011!!!

China planning to build 33-ton helicopte

So, what is so new?

Seems to me that Russia is hard pressed for funds. S-400 here, S-300 there, ....................

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Philip » 21 Dec 2015 09:47

Russia hard pressed for funds or India hard pressed for cutting edge eqpt? :rotfl:

If our desi ABM system was perfected,why would we need S-400s? The CAG report has clearly stated that the IN's in dire trouble due to antique Chetaks,IA also in trouble for sev. years for the same reason,helos crashing regularly,and that's why we've selected the KA-226 after a competition.I'don't think that India is doing Russia any favours with these deals.They're dire necessities.

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Re: Indian Military Helicopters

Postby Kashi » 21 Dec 2015 09:55

Philip wrote:If our desi ABM system was perfected,why would we need S-400s?


If we had no hope of our desi ABMs being perfected, why would we order only a limited amount of S-400?

Do you EVEN comprehend the concept of pressing needs vs long-term plans?

Does favouring Russia and scoring a point on an internet forum mean so much to you that you are happy to denigrate any and all indigenous efforts?


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