How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 06 Dec 2014 14:33

Starting a new topic to get ideas from everyone on the best ways to make Pakistan pay for its terror activities.
For me one thing is clear. As long as the Pakistani Military (includes ISI etc), is allowed to remain a potent force inside Pakistan, the hostility towards India will remain.
Sooner or later India will have to draw concrete plans to neutralize the pakistani military.

For starters, I would suggest we embark on the following path.
We should use the area of our maximum relative strength vis-a-vis pakistan to strike. Our economy and the siz eof our market are the biggest relative advantages that we have as compared to Pakistan. I suggest a plan to be carried out over the next 5-6 years to completely ruin pakistan's economy.

1). In the wake of current terror attacks, India should pass a new Anti-Terror Funding Law.
India should first officially declare Pakistan as a state sponsoring terror. Under the new law, all companies and individuals would be required to certify that they are not involves in funding terror, directly or indirectly, if they have any kind of operations in terror originating countries (read Pakistan).
What this would mean is that all MNC's, if they have operations in Pakistan, would have to certify that neither the company directly nor any of its employees or vendors are involved in funding terror. Any contributions to JuD type of "charity" organisations would be construed as terror funding.
Apart from this, all companies sourcing goods from Pakistan and also having operations in India, would also have to certify that none of the companies, including all employees, from whom they are sourcing goods, are not funding terror in any way.

The above provisions would be impossible to meet for almost all companies. What the above would basically mean is that If a company wants to have operations in India, it should cease all operations in Pakistan. If not, then till the time that the company can furnish the required documentation, its future expansion plans in India would be put on hold. The existing operations would go on, but any kind of changes to existing operations and all future operations would be put on hold.

The size and potential of the Indian market is an order of magnitude bigger then pakistan's.

The above law if executed, would mean almost all MNCs, like Pepsi, Coke, Adidas, Nike etc. would have to shut their operations in Pakistan and repatriate the proceeds from sale of their business. The companies would suffer some loss, but perhaps the Indian govt. can provide certain short term tax breaks for companies complying with the above law.

This would mean a huge loss for pakistan in terms of jobs and foreign currency. The job loss would be mainly be amongst the RAPE class and the educated elite.
Moreover, exports from Pakistan of things like textile, clothing, sporting goods etc. would take a big hit. We can offer to open multi-brand retail for the likes of walmart etc., provided they shut down all sourcing from Pakistan for their worldwide operations. Not just multi-brand, single brand companies like Gap, Levis etc. also source from Pakistan.
This would hit paki exports really hard, and also job losses and loss of business for exporting companies.

Even other essential imports would take a hit. Cellphone companies like samsung etc. can cease operations, thereby reducing the pakis to buying imported gray market stuff only, with no official after sales service.
Boeing and Airbus can be forced to stop their service and after sales operations in Pakistan, after reviewing the fine print in their existing contracts, forcing all civilian aircrafts to be flown to the gulf or elsewhere for maintenance and repairs. If the contracts don't allow closing down of the service operations, maybe with the right kind of carrot and stick approach the Indian govt. can make these companies downsize these operations. This would hinder the smooth operations of the civil air traffic in pakistan.

All of the above, would put a huge burden on the paki economy and would lead to flight of foreign exchange from pakistan.

Apart from this, we also have good expertise in Financial scams in India. Not just the good old fashioned 10% commission like Zardari, but more sophisticated stock market and bank related scams.

I would propose to start with a Ketan Parekh style stock market scam, in pakistan. Start pumping up a few chosen stock of actual companies, as well as shell companies in the karachi stock market. The operation would go on for a good two years. With high global liquidity and soaring Indian stock market, the media in pak should be manipulated to highlight this rise as a very good thing for pak and encourage maximum no. of pakis to invest.
The markets should be driven up by about 150% minimum over two years. A lot of the funding should be obtained from paki banks, the same way fraudsters in India are able to get dubious loans sanctioned.
After this, like Ketan Parekh, the inflated stocks should be hypothecated to the banks to get loans against shares.
The money thus obtained should be used to buy gold etc and send that to India.
Once a we reach a substantial amount, the stories should get planted in the paki media, exposing the shell companies and a lot of the other financial irregularities. The stocks still being held, by our agents should then be dumped enmass to crash the market.
We would also need to have a few of the mutual fund managers etc. on our payroll to do the dirty work and assist in the pumping and then the dumping operation of shares.
The markets should be crashed and with no real support from the actual economy the crash should be to the tune of 80% atleast.
Once the crash is well on the way, the stories about banks holding substantial amount of stocks as collateral should appear in the media. Every new report would add to the notional loss that the banks would be looking at. The nos. should get exaggerated with every passing report.
A few of the bank branch managers that have assisted in the passing of dubious loans, would then be used to create a temporary liquidity shortage in the banks. The reports about losses to the banks and short liquidity position, would lead to general panic and a classic run on the banks. The stock scam would have targeted only 2-3 amongst the top 5-7 banks in Pakistan, but the resulting panic and run on the banks would mostly affect the entire banking sector.

The stock market scam, resulting in big losses to a lot of people and bank problems should be used to motivate the TTP type jihadis in pakistan to declare a ban on the stock market and a ban on western style modern banking. For good measure a dozen or more grenade attacks should be encouraged on bank branches. These would be soft targets and such attacks would be easy to carry out. The attacks would be carried out by TTP like jihadis only and not by us.
If possible, a large truck bomb attack to be carried out on the karachi stock market, being labeled as a gambling den by the Jihadis and hence un-islamic..
All of the above, would bring the entire formal financial sector in pakistan to its knees.

Through lifafa media, the govt would be pressurized to not only re-capitalize the banks, but also make good all losses incurred by the public, due to the stock market crash. Also, under pressure from Jihadis and media, govt of pak to declare conversion of the entire banking sector to strict islamic banking only.
This would mean a further flight of capital from the country. Most RAPE class would use their most preferred hawala channels to take as much money out as possible and park it in Dubai, London etc.
More importantly, the repatriation from Non-resident pakis would almost stop.

The recapitalization of banks (given the corruption in pak, most banks would exaggerate the loss a-la farm loan waivers in India and get more money from the govt) and making up for some of the losses in the stock market would force to govt. to print a lot of money. Also, the loss of foreign exchange, drop in exports, drop in Non-resident receipts, and almost zero FDI, would mean that the paki rupee would have to devalue big time. With dollar tap from US now coming to a close, the coffin would tightly shut.

From the above, I would expect the following results on paki economy.
1). Paki rupee drops to between 120 to 140 to a dollar.
2). Official Inflation would be above 20%.
3). GDP growth less then 2.5%.
4). CAD to reach 8% to 10% of GDP.
5). Trade deficit uncontrollable.
6). Over 50% of pak budget to be used for debt servicing.
7). Pak officially defaults on interest on loan payments.
8). Narcotics and arms smuggling only viable options for funding paki military.

This would teach pak the anjam of dushmani with India.

Would welcome all members to details other military and non-military steps that India can take to truly punish pak for its terror activities.
Last edited by mody on 06 Dec 2014 15:02, edited 1 time in total.

Mukesh.Kumar
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 06 Dec 2009 14:09

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 06 Dec 2014 14:43

@Mody, there are already a plethora of Bakistan oriented threads. I would recommend that you take this topic to either Pakistan a new way of looking or STFUP or to Managing Pakistan's failure. Too many threads add to confusion.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 06 Dec 2014 15:06

The new thread is meant for making concrete suggestion for military and non-military response to teach pakistan a lesson. The lesson cannot be a one time rap on the knuckles. As I have mentioned, I believe Pakistani military establishment is a compulsively hostile and will not rest till it is hopelessly incapacitated.

The mods can decide if the new topic is warranted or not. If not, then suggest the most appropriate thread to merge this into.

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 15999
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby RajeshA » 06 Dec 2014 16:20

mody ji,

On 25 Jun 2010, I created a thread "Pakistan-sponsored Terrorism - India's Options". It was subsequently renamed to "Managing Pakistan's failure" for psyops reasons.

You could consider using that thread if you wish!

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 1363
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Deans » 06 Dec 2014 16:29

There are some simple steps that GOI can take without depending on any MNC's etc to comply.
Our biggest leverage over Pakistan is our far bigger economy and that should be exploited.

Pakistan's 2 biggest exports of goods are Cotton and Basmati Rice.
All GOI needs to do, is increase the export subsidy for Indian exporters for both items. These product are so price sensitive that a small subsidy increase (which our babus can quietly do and ensure they are in line with WTO etc) will cripple Pakistan's exports. I made this recommendation to GOI once, alas, that was in the UPA's time.

Pakistan's biggest source of foreign exchange (apart from baksheesh from the 3.5) is remittances from the Gulf. If GOI provides insurance policies to Indian labour and subsidised air tickets (for those people getting less than a certain salary threshold) Indian labour will be more inclined to go the Gulf, thereby displacing Pakistani labor. We should be able to prevail upon Obama to lean on the Saudi's (which accounts for over 2/3 of Paki's in the Gulf), to ensure that their Saudisation drive, throws out a larger proportion of Pakistani's.

Without any fanfare, start diverting the waters of the Indus tributaries (3 of which we have full control under IWT) so that a negligible amount gets to Pakistan. This can be explained away as part of a national river linking project (so that WKK's don't object). It will result in improved water availability for a significant part of South Punjab and Rajasthan (where the water table is depleted). All employment guarantee scheme funding should go towards this scheme, so that it is quickly completed.

Ask all tourists to deposit a bond with GOI when applying for a visa, which will be forfeited if they overstay, disappear etc. They will do the same to Indians, which is helpful as it is the WKK's that will be inconvenienced.

Apart from this:
1. All channels banned from featuring any Pakistanis on our news programs, unless they are certified anti (Pak) establishment types.
I've lived in several countries and have not seen any country's media give their opponents so much oxygen.
The ban would not be official but enforced by gentle persuasion from IT dept etc.
2. Stop the Wagah tamasha. Its a suicide attack (on our side) waiting to happen.

P.S - Admin. Please post in the right forum, if this is not the one.

deejay
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4008
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby deejay » 06 Dec 2014 16:32

All of you recommend everything but direct action. We really are dhimmified.

kmc_chacko
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 10:10
Location: Shivamogga, Karnataka

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby kmc_chacko » 06 Dec 2014 18:03

Deans wrote:There are some simple steps that GOI can take without depending on any MNC's etc to comply.
Our biggest leverage over Pakistan is our far bigger economy and that should be exploited.

Pakistan's 2 biggest exports of goods are Cotton and Basmati Rice.
All GOI needs to do, is increase the export subsidy for Indian exporters for both items. These product are so price sensitive that a small subsidy increase (which our babus can quietly do and ensure they are in line with WTO etc) will cripple Pakistan's exports. I made this recommendation to GOI once, alas, that was in the UPA's time.


+1

1. Pakistan's 2 biggest exports of goods are Cotton and Basmati Rice - block it by any way.
2. Ask IMF to impose strict conditions on Loans issued to Pakistan and ask to lend money for short term at higher rate of interest & their by drain their economy.
3. Increase defense spending on items which make Pakistan feel that it is falling behind and try to balance it by spending more on it & drain their economy.
4. Buy peoples from inside Pakistan & neutralize heads of different terrorist organisation by put blame on opposite group, create internal turmoil.
5. Reduce flow of water from India to Pakistan and divert the same Punjab & Rajasthan - rejuvenate river Saraswati.
6. Increase the No go land at border by firing at anything moves around say 1-2 kms from Border. Use Automatic Guns or Anything create extra no mans land to keep track on whatever moves.
7. Destroy their border infrastructures in IB, LOC, POK. Warn China that it will face same fate as Pakistan from India if their people found in POK or near LOC. Kill Them.
8. Encourage Gas/Oil pipeline between Russia-China-India attract China with business opportunity If they leave Pakistan and join us,
If not join with USA
9. Encourage SWADESHI Products amount people reduce dependence on Chinese products.
10. Build Roads & Infra around Pakistan & Chinese border quickly and declare Tibet, Xinjiang are disputed land and reject One China Policy.

Eric Leiderman
BRFite
Posts: 364
Joined: 26 Nov 2010 08:56

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Eric Leiderman » 06 Dec 2014 19:56

Using one of the multiple jehidi organisations , stage an attack on a neculear wepons base.
Get nuggets dropped to forgien media and watch the tamasha unfold.

Ps The attack need not be successful just widely covered.

member_28638
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_28638 » 06 Dec 2014 20:23

Suggestions:

(1) Ask the sneaky and devious British for their help!

The way they made a parallel organization to the Mau Mau in Kenya is an object lesson in sneaky devious war. In a similar way, India should form parallel groups to these terrorist organizations in the country so as to hunt them down and obliterate them.

(2) Get the Israelis in!

The Americans did even though they spend about a trillion dollars a year on their military industrial complex.

(3) Follow tough guy Putin's example:

"We will hunt them down and kill them ..."
After all, the Porkis are hunting Indians down. In other words Indians need to grow some huge cahones.

(4) Get mercenaries in!

Blackwater (now Xe) will protect the borders and kill without remorse.

I could think of many other methods but some are not for the squemish.

Ramesh
BRFite
Posts: 265
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 21:10

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Ramesh » 06 Dec 2014 21:10

Military is but one tool in the hands of govt. There is really no end to imagination if we have the right tools. A few scenarios:-
1. KSE gets hacked repeatedly and stock prices go topsy turvy. Hurts RAPEs.
2. A computer of one of the nuclear reactor malfunctions and control rods get removed...
3. Couple of Indian army men in charge of mizziles go mad and let off a few.. of course they can be dealt with disciplinary action later on...
4. Couple of ships approaching karachi harbor go boom due to mysterious reasons...
Can list many more... the question is have we developed capabilities for these and are we willing to use them.

vishvak
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5836
Joined: 12 Aug 2011 21:19

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby vishvak » 06 Dec 2014 21:15

We need to play the basics well, not give them a straw to latch onto & declare jihadis as civilized.

(1) Mandatory 1 month medical confinement for people going to or coming from land of polio and land of war against polio workers.
(2) Heavy to very heavy retaliation for any acts of targeting. Explain how Af-pak is different from pakis throwing rabid dogs across border. Increase production rate of artillery manifold. Target their prime and logistic nodes as target practice even if they look up from their bunker.
(3) Target ISI planners who have been scheming bloody terrorist attacks in India, as also D-gang, drug running, & so on.
(4) Finish off paki jihadi leadership ASAP after every incident - be it at area level at site of cowardly attacks or their higher ups otherwise, don't wait till flag meetings with jihadis who declare all eij well.
(5) Bomb the jihadi meetings from across the border. Set up mercenaries to independently help in eradicating terrorism. (per Chakra ji, and others too; we need to pull this well in campaigns like 'SOS HELP against terrorism in PoJ&K'; 'SOS HELP against terrorism in Arabian Ocean' and so on and on).
(6) Make 'international' orgs like WB, ADB, (BRICS now on) to explicitly ban pakbarians. Penalize/sanction countries that support terrorist pakis as their munnas.
(7) Ban paki navy in Arabian ocean.
(8) Make strategic nuclear umbrella deal with Afghanistan, make a few nuke tests for Afghans for their self defense.
(9) Vigilance without rest, even after goals are met. Build mile high and mile wide fence; for example.

schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1765
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby schinnas » 06 Dec 2014 21:35

Given current state of Puki economy, economic warfare in tandem with diplomatic, covert and overt action against Pukiland will be very effective.

1. Currency speculation and manipulation is must to ensure that Puki currency goes down to around 150 per dollar That way Pukis will not see benefit of lowering gasoline prices and their imports and electricity cost will sky rocket. This needs some well funded currency speculators and players in Wall street and in London. Would take some time, resources and energy to set it up and sustain it but is very much needed for the medium to long term.

2. As others have suggested, diver Indus water to diver it to inland lakes and rivers. We can still abide by Indus treaty by releasing all their share of water at one go at caliberated intervals (it should be a surprise to them everytime).

3. As many have suggested kill Puki exports of textiles and rice. There are numerous ways to do this.

4. Declare Pukiland as a sponsor of terrorism officially and impose unilateral economic sanctions against Pakistan to the extent possible. Without UN sanction we may not be able to do much but every little thing goes a long way as that entity is on brink of economic collapse.

5. Ensure that cheaper Indian goods flood Puki market through Dubai and Afghanistan. This will kill any remaining industry in Pukistan that is not already killed by Cheens dumping their goods.

6. Same time increase military cost to Pukistan relentlessly and draw them into heavy spending on unsustainable military infrastructure.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Cosmo_R » 06 Dec 2014 22:01

deejay wrote:All of you recommend everything but direct action. We really are dhimmified.


Not really. Direct action is what pakis and PRC want. It's stupid to get into a knife-fight with a suicidal underling when you should be focusing on the real threat: PRC.

Indirect action can take the form of bringing the the jihad to the defence and Clifton colonies' doorstep. Very focused and painful. Revenge for Kaluchak 24x7 and Red Fort attack.

Ajit Doval has hinted at this in his 'offensive defense' calculus.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3939
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby arshyam » 06 Dec 2014 22:19

^^ deejay sir, what would you recommend as direct action?

The reason I ask is, are we prepared to take direct action by starting an artillery barrage (I don't know if this is what you had in mind, hence the above question) and taking the fight up a few notches? How long would our stores last in such a situation? From my (civilian) PoV, the last 10 years have seen very little investment in defence, and it seems to me that those chickens are coming home to roost. And the Modi govt is paying the price. They want to walk the talk, but unable to (I don't know what to make of Parrikar's priorities though). To top it off, the covert action teams of agencies like RAW are not up to their pre-Gujral level of capabilities, so that may constrict our options even further. Finally, any action on the border will only distract from the on-going elections - it is not just the voting turnouts, but the campaigning has to go on normally without the sense of fear. These need some peace and quiet in J&K.

I think we responding on the border will be playing to their terms. We should instead take the fight to them in ways that they won't normally expect.

I think if we have the capability, respond by sending in covert action teams to various Paki army establishments (not just bunkers) that are close to the border and blow up a few forward bases and maybe airfields. I know it is easier said than done, but I expect Army intel to have some idea about these establishments and how to take them out. By attacking close to the borders, our boys can return relatively easily. Leave some jihadi literature on site to cause some confusion about the attackers. Cause some serious H&D damage to them, as their army camps will now be under attack, not some terrorist training camps. It will also give them enough takleef inland that they may have to turn their attention to fight fires at (their) home. Also, use one of our thousand 'consulates' in Afghanistan to stir up some trouble on their western border. Of course, we don't have to say anything publicly beyond that these are internal Paki issues. At the same time, have a few Marcos teams sink a few ships near their Karachi base, in such a way that the damage is to their naval assets. Maybe attack the airport as well (just firing a few random shots at landing jets should be enough). The idea is to take the fight to their military forces directly, without the 'equal-equal' of taking out the terrorist camps onlee, and create a fear factor among their terrorist munnas. If their army is under attack purportedly by jihadis themselves (there is enough precedent for this), sleeper cells in J&K may think twice before stepping out to do some mischief.

We are going to get more attacks in J&K in order to disrupt the elections, but with Paki attention focussed inwards, they will receive less support from the border, and we can neutralize these threats in J&K. The rest won't even stir out due to confusion. And since our response will be inside PoK and Paki proper, elections will go on. The J&K elections are way too important to be distracted and held under siege.

This is just my 2 paisa, have no idea what is actually being done. The above should have been the plan from 2 months ago, as it was a given that the elections will invite attacks. But it is better late than never. The Paki establishment must be told in clear terms that meddling in India will not be cheap anymore.

SBajwa
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5399
Joined: 10 Jan 2006 21:35
Location: Attari

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby SBajwa » 06 Dec 2014 22:23

1. Recall our ambassador from bakistan and then arrest baki ambassador on the charge of raping his maid in Delhi., demand Lakhvi from baki for his release.

2. Arrest their top cricket/hockey players/actors/singers currently in India on various charges., demand at least 10 terrorists hiding there.

3. launch couple of Brahmos cruise missile onto the Hafeez Saeed's Muridke station when there is a big meeting going on.

4. Identify the building of Dawood and do the same (Brahmos)

5. Launch rockets on the terrorist camps across the border., and shoot down any baki aircrafts that intervene.

6. blockade Karachi until all of these terrorists are returned to India. Remind Bakis that they regularly send their "criminal" citizens over to Saudi, Guentanamo, etc.

7. Send commando units to help Baluchis.

and so forth!! There are million options but all you need is WILL!!!

Jayram
BRFite
Posts: 338
Joined: 14 Jan 2003 12:31

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Jayram » 06 Dec 2014 22:30

Start the goddam COLD WAR with the Pukis already and by that I mean all options on the table short of declared war.
Start by going after Dawood and getting him to stand trial in India.
Increase our intellegence assets in Pukisthan to the max.. Nothing should move in Pukiworld with out our knowledge by that I mean we should know about planned terrorist attack before it happens on our territory. Thats the standard to apply. I agree with the rest

member_22733
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3788
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_22733 » 06 Dec 2014 22:38

Many here believe that we cannot conventionally take on Bakistan. I think it is true vice-versa as well. so assuming

1) Bakistan wont go suicidally irrational (i.e. nukes)
2) Bakistan will not escalate something into a conventional frontal assault.

We should do two things:
1) Look into Cold Start
2) Arm Balochs with heavy weapons (RPGs, HMGs, RDX, Anti Tank/Anti Personnel mines etc) and encourage very high profile attacks on Pindi/Isloo

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 1363
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Deans » 07 Dec 2014 07:59

deejay wrote:All of you recommend everything but direct action. We really are dhimmified.


We haven't even taken any indirect action. Why not start with that first.

tushar_m

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby tushar_m » 07 Dec 2014 08:59

Kill hafeez saeed's while he is giving political/terrorist speech live on television.

use sniper & go for a head shot ,the front row must taste the splash.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24189
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby SSridhar » 07 Dec 2014 18:06

Guys, before anything that you suggest is attempted or even thought of, there must be a political decision that there is no possibility of Pakistan being a normal state in its relations with us and every attempt must now be made to strangulate it because our nation's integrity, security and progress are getting deeply affected by it in its present form. Once that irrevocable decision is made, the rest will fall in place. This decision should have been made two decades back, if not even earlier. Pakistan's terror activities emanate from its enduring hostility and are merely a symptom of a deeper malaise that cannot be cured at all. This realisation is important.

Brad Goodman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2382
Joined: 01 Apr 2010 17:00

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Brad Goodman » 07 Dec 2014 18:18

raise the covert capability inside all states of al bakistan. There should be enough assets lined up that at moments notice they can be activated. Hafeez pig and dawood should be scared of coming in open. their handlers need to fear more about protecting them than using them

kulhari
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 66
Joined: 05 Feb 2010 21:13

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby kulhari » 07 Dec 2014 18:33

tushar_m wrote:..........use sniper & go for a head shot ,the front row must taste the splash.


We must look at larger pic and first develop enough strength for mega conflict. The Mother Of All war is coming.
I believe GOI is already doing/going to do that.
Issue :status
1. Remove deficiencies wrt equipments / training / additional man power etc: works is already in full swing (arty / subs / mountain div / abm shield etc)
2. Develop more human asset / intelligence penetration among terrorist gps: cannot know exact status
3. find and eliminate sleeper cells: work is on
4. Secure border issues with BD/Nepal/burma and fence it completely to stop infiltration: Land swap deal with BD is in progress
5.Crush other threats like Maoists: being done
6. Boost economy so that effect of war in future can be countered: being done
for the time being Keep border response at optimum (targeting border posts etc): being done

Once all of the above is achieved.
1. Bomb Hafez "the pork" in full view (during his rally)using Brahmos/Su30MKI with CSD in force and power to back it.
2. make indian ocean-Indian lake. sink all porki subs.
3. Supply arms and money to BLA etc.

We are (JMO) on the right path but perhaps a bit slow.

member_28638
BRFite
Posts: 211
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_28638 » 08 Dec 2014 01:14

Two suggestions:

(1) Build tens of thousands of drones like the Americans use and have them patrol the borders so they can obliterate any thing that enters India from Porkistan.

(2) Start building tens of thousands of robots that will shoot and seek out these rats that are building underground tunnels so as to leave them buried where they are found.


This is war whether we like it or not!

Also it will save Indian lives.

dsreedhar
BRFite
Posts: 288
Joined: 10 Jan 2011 06:57

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby dsreedhar » 08 Dec 2014 01:25

I visit this site time to time and this is my first post here.
India since ages seem to be an intellectually advanced and economically prosperous nation with less inclination towards military and warring capabilities. This has caused the nation's downfall and subjugation under puny forces for long times, lost our wealth and had to rebuild over and again. So it is utmost important for us to align our strengths (intellectual, technology and economy) to the military capability. Not always try to be defensive but try to build a character to be bold and offensive and kick some a** when needed. People and nations only fear and respect the bold and strong. It thwarts them from even a thought to mess with such nations. But again this is a long process and takes time, maybe a generation (20+yrs).
Pakistan will never change as is and as long as other major powers keep supporting or propping them for their interests. It was America in the past, China now and may be someone else in the future. Had china not lifted and keep propping them from failure, there would have been a realization within the pakistani society and we could have hoped for things moving in the right direction. But we don't have that situation atleast in the distant future. Other global powers envy India because of its potential to rise to be one. No doubt America, China, russia continue to be major powers in the world and a few changes along the way. But end of the day there will be multiple major powers and we have to deal with them.
So bottom line is this irritant with pakistan is not confined to pakistan alone but major powers (current and future). That's the big picture I look at.

In the short term (5 yrs)-
-Declare pakistan a rouge nation and cutoff links.
-Support Afghanisthan, baluchistan rebels and any groups actively fighting against the state of PAK. Do it covertly and on a much bigger scale.
-Should start looking at building commando teams to destroy the training sites and launching pads across the border. But these are suicide missions. Who will do it? The paki jihadis are zombies and brain dead and easily be recruited for suicide. But what about sane people?
-Actively pursue operations within pakistan to eliminate terrorist leaders such as hafeez, dawood etc. They should not feel safe house in pakistan.
-At every forum/avenue state China is supporting a rougue nation of PAK which is killing Indian citizens. This needs to be heard and imbibed in Chinese people. Day will come when the Chinese will not want to fight third country's war at their expense.

Medium to long term (5+yrs) -
-Work on the 'Make in India'. Trumpet and mobilise the young people of this nation to do something for the country. Need to move away from IT and BPO work and excite the younger generation to contribute their strength to nation building and its defenses. Bring to parity the difference in compensation from IT to other important fields. People in India now are above the struggle for basic needs. They are more confident and raring to do something. We need to build upon this.
-Build nation pride. Good to see India doing better and better in sports avenue. This momentum needs to go on steroids (not doping). Be right there with the American, chinese, russians. This is great pride and confidence for the people.
-People of the nation need to honor and remember our soldiers fighting at the border to protect us. Currently we hear the tragic news, our blood boils, shout and express on these online forums and after couple of days it is forgotten. There should be a concerted effort for this. When a solder dies we need to have a one minute silence for those folks on our national television. The soldiers need to be remembered and honored at places such as in airports etc and have special provisions for them.
-Be competitive in every technological arena with the major powers and be in lead in a few. Go neck to neck in competition with China in every space and field.
-Keep encircling China and build rapport with all the nations hostile to China.
-When the time is right, pull the plug and make it hard for China to sell in India.
-Take concrete actions on PAK and dont leave it open ended this time round. End it once and for all.

This is a little long process in duration but which only will ensure a longer time peace.
IT was a great avenue to uplift India and to get it's engine started. The nation needs to rev up the engine. We have all the ingredients we need and a great leader to work for the people and this nation. We are at the cusp on the target to being a major power and do not want to set back.

Sorry for a bit long post.

KrishnaK
BRFite
Posts: 948
Joined: 29 Mar 2005 23:00

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby KrishnaK » 08 Dec 2014 01:27

SSridhar wrote:Guys, before anything that you suggest is attempted or even thought of, there must be a political decision that there is no possibility of Pakistan being a normal state in its relations with us and every attempt must now be made to strangulate it because our nation's integrity, security and progress are getting deeply affected by it in its present form. Once that irrevocable decision is made, the rest will fall in place. This decision should have been made two decades back, if not even earlier. Pakistan's terror activities emanate from its enduring hostility and are merely a symptom of a deeper malaise that cannot be cured at all. This realisation is important.

Good point, but it is not about to happen. I understand many on this forum think the current political dispensation in the centre is the only nationalist one. Their response to Pakistan is not going to be substantially different from the ones of the previous governments.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2014 03:33

^^^ "Their response to Pakistan is not going to be substantially different from the ones of the previous governments."

The header of thread is misnamed. It should really be about "How to Make The Pakistan Army Pay For Terror Activities." That is what Mr. D will do.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_26622 » 08 Dec 2014 04:13

All this thinking and what not actually reduces the likelihood of a fitting response - like a decay function over time.

What is needed is an IMMEDIATE RESPONSE WITHIN TWO HOURS of any border violation. Militants or Army classification is irrelevant - sponsor is PAKI ARMY. Make them pay x 5 times or bankrupt them in process.

For long, my want was to line up the border with 155mm Bofors guns - 300 odd will do the job. Light the border every time a border transgression happens. Needs to be DESI ammo to be cost effective just as an FYI - But PEACEMONGERS compared this with Korea situation (which by the way is peaceful).

Put in a policy and empower front line folks to respond immediately, not push it to Delhi.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2014 04:19

@nik ^^^ Paki army pays at home. Like Kaluchak. They are not impressed by our offing pawns. The Knights on horses and where they live need to be targeted. And they can, with plausible deniability. The 'Jihadis' IN Pakistan are not ideologically motivated. They are financially motivated. Think about the cost effectiveness.

member_26622
BRFite
Posts: 537
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_26622 » 08 Dec 2014 04:42

@ Cosmo_R - I agree but that requires serious 'homegrown' capabilities like the Israelis are able to put together and the impunity with which they can do it - hard work, patience and seriousness given the downside 'existence' risk they face.

We spend 40 plus billion $ on Defense versus Paki pittance of 6 billion > But our capabilities are substantially weaker for every $ spent because of how things were done. Import, corruption and what not - can't fight a war for 30 days even after spending 40 billion $ summarizes everything. But let's focus on future instead of debating the past.

Simple observations -

>If we had 2000 jets or at least 1000 more than what we have today then we could have been able impose a no fly zone over POK and more Paki land. No need of fancy goodies given the distance and opposition makeup, but Nope - we still want the best of the best and measly 100's to field. With 1000 additional jets, we could have engaged in a war of attrition without going beyond 20 miles in to Paki airspace and will have them on to their knees within days (nuke threshold?).

> After two decades we finally have ability to make 155 mm guns domestically, but we open up another tender instead of making 1000's of these immediately. At least order these for BSF to get even numerically with Pakis.

Many points to make but 'Urgency' is a missing factor or it is substituted by 'Urgent Import'. I would rather give them a response with what I have today then wait for tomorrow is the pitch.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2488
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Vivek K » 08 Dec 2014 05:04

Excellent post! Nik. India has homegrown worldbeaters like Arjun, LCA, 155 mm gun but the "import fever" for a few dollars more has destroyed India's ability to project power beyond its shores.

Cosmo_R
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3407
Joined: 24 Apr 2010 01:24

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Cosmo_R » 08 Dec 2014 05:34

Let's start with low tech demos of Clifton/Defence colonies Mumbai payback style x2.

Next up, Soosai bummers at LeT rally where Hafeez Saeed is speaking. His train etc. Low hanging grenades.

Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 991
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby Guddu » 08 Dec 2014 08:40

Response to pak has to be economic, along with support of baloch insurgency. If we can wipe out Hafeez covertly, that would be fine too. Causing problems in Clifton is not the right way, IMHO, it invites similar activities in India. We have to use brains, rather than give an overt response, which is what the pakis want.

That the Indian politicos are not raving about the paki attacks is significant, its like the "dog that did not bark" in Sherlock Holmes, very significant IMHO.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 08 Dec 2014 11:40

The basic premise is that Pakistan cannot be reformed and will never be a non-antagonistic neighbor for India.
The best response to paki sponsored terror, is to make pakistan internally so weak, that it cannot continue as a viable nation.
This will automatically make the military very weak.

There is no point in trying to hit only the Jihadis. They are cannon fodder anyways.
Those recommending targeted assassination of the like of Hafeez, forget that Hafeez is not the problem. The hundreds of thousands to throng to hear Hafeez is the problem for India. Killing one Hafeez will simply give rise to another Hafeez.

From the economic standpoint, the following need to be achieved:
1). Drop in paki GDP growth.
2). Drop in paki rupee against the dollar.
3). Very high inflation.
4). Flight of capital from paki, leading to balance of payment crises and eventual default.
5). Drastic drop exports.
6). Complete collapse of formal banking and financial industry in pak.

Many have pointed out correctly that main paki exports are cotton, rice, sporting goods and textiles.
For cotton and textiles there are quotas fixed by the US and EU for emerging countries and hence the direct disruption of these will be difficult. Instead we should target the actual buyers, to stop buying any made in paki products. This will be easier.

With regards to drop in remittance from Non-resident pakis, this would happen automatically, if the financial systems and pak deteriorate. Most pakis from US and UK are not so inclined to remit. If the country appears to be in a mess, even pakis from the gulf will reduce their remittances. Direct action by India, like subsidizing our labour against pakistan will not be very effective, as they can agree to work for less as well and also others like from Bangladesh etc. may get more advantage. Indians are moving up the value chain as far as labour in the middle east is concerned and the Indian govt has infact started lobbying for higher pays for all Indian workers in the gulf.

With regards to water sharing, this is a world bank brokered agreement and being the rational nation that India is, we should not be seen breaking this kind of agreements. In fact we want to use Indus water treaty as as example striking agreements with China with regards to Brahmaputra etc.

For currency drop, there is no direct manipulation that can be done. Paki rupee is not freely convertible, hence we cannot drop the value by trading manipulations.
The drop in value has to be done by the pakis themselves. This would happen only when their exports drop and if a flight of capital starts taking place in pakiland.

Apart from the economic war, we should also start dividing pakiland of ethnic lines. The first priority should be to create a divide between Pastuns and Punjabis and divide should start from within the paki army. More of this in the next post.

member_23694
BRFite
Posts: 732
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby member_23694 » 08 Dec 2014 12:00

mody wrote:Those recommending targeted assassination of the like of Hafeez, forget that Hafeez is not the problem. The hundreds of thousands to throng to hear Hafeez is the problem for India. Killing one Hafeez will simply give rise to another Hafeez.

From the economic standpoint, the following need to be achieved:
1). Drop in paki GDP growth.
2). Drop in paki rupee against the dollar.
3). Very high inflation.
4). Flight of capital from paki, leading to balance of payment crises and eventual default.
5). Drastic drop exports.
6). Complete collapse of formal banking and financial industry in pak.


Sir the above points seem contradictory. If hundreds of thousands throng to hear Hafeez then it also implies that those people hardly care about the economy. For them there is only one export that they know about and are proud of ....
The problem is how come such rallies be conducted with impunity. Punishment and Fear need to be instilled from top down approach for things to fall in place.
And I definitely don't mean war or 2000 fighters etc for fear , don't think such options will help here

mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 08 Dec 2014 12:12

The way I would like India to respond to pak is to ensure complete destruction of pakistani military its ability sustain any kind of hostile programs towards India.

As I had written in my first post, this would require a 5-7 year plan and execution.
Towards this aim, I would propose the following:

1). Economic war on pakiland, roughly along the lines, of what I had posted in my first post.
2). Social war on pakiland, by exploiting the many ethnic divisions with pak. The most important would be drive a wedge between the pashtuns and the punjabis. These are the two pillars of paki military capability, both uniformed and non-uniformed.
Another ethnic fissure to exploit would be in the Baltistan, against the punjabi sunni army.
3). Full fledged offensive war on paki military targets. The operation would need to be an extremely high tempo offensive, involving everything we have in our conventional arsenal. The operation would probably be planned for a duration of 6 days. Beyond this, the paki nuke threshold would be very near. The aim would be to hit paki military capability as hard as possible to degrade their conventional capabilities. Additional aims should be to capture the Baltistan area and other strategic points like Haji Pir etc. along the LoC, such that we would then hold the advantage all along the LoC thereafter. The capture of Baltistan would be give us the ability to severe the KKH paki-cheen link, as and when we like.

The operations towards the first and second points should be started immediately. Planning for 3rd point should also start immediately and after identifying the exact capabilities that we require to carry out the operation, we should devote the next 5 years in gaining those capabilities and letting the first two points to play out, to make the pakis weaker.

Rough ideas for the first point, were given in mu first post. Will try to come with ideas concerning the 2nd point.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 08 Dec 2014 12:29

dhiraj wrote:
mody wrote:Those recommending targeted assassination of the like of Hafeez, forget that Hafeez is not the problem. The hundreds of thousands to throng to hear Hafeez is the problem for India. Killing one Hafeez will simply give rise to another Hafeez.

From the economic standpoint, the following need to be achieved:
1). Drop in paki GDP growth.
2). Drop in paki rupee against the dollar.
3). Very high inflation.
4). Flight of capital from paki, leading to balance of payment crises and eventual default.
5). Drastic drop exports.
6). Complete collapse of formal banking and financial industry in pak.


Sir the above points seem contradictory. If hundreds of thousands throng to hear Hafeez then it also implies that those people hardly care about the economy. For them there is only one export that they know about and are proud of ....
The problem is how come such rallies be conducted with impunity. Punishment and Fear need to be instilled from top down approach for things to fall in place.
And I definitely don't mean war or 2000 fighters etc for fear , don't think such options will help here


The ones who are coming to hear the likes of Hafeez speak are beyond redemption. When they have a potentially unlimited stock of Fidayeens, who are ready to come here and die horrific deaths, just with the aim that they might be able to do some damage to us, there is no point in targeting such Jihadis.

Instead what we have to target is the Paki military establishment, which uses these jihadis. We have to target the entire paki state such that they loose the will and ability to train and send these brain washed pigs to come and die here. Instead of Hafeez, if we can target the master minds in ISI, who run the whole anti India operations, then I am all for it. Target them. Target the paki military officers, who are in charge of training and planning of such terror operations. The foot soldiers, both uniformed and non-uniformed are simply cannon fodder for these guys. We can kill as many as we want. It will not change the picture much.
In fact over the last 20 years, we have probably killed more then 50 to 60 thousand, yet it does not act as a deterrent to new recruits.

You are right that the Jihadis can't care less about the state of paki economy or institutions, but the ability of people controlling them and using them, does depend on it. By destroying the paki economy and state institutions, we degrade their ability to carry on with their operations against us.
Also make no mistake, that almost 99% of population in pakiland support the terror ops against India. The actual fighters are too brain washed to know anything. For the the others, they support the ops, as long as they don't have to suffer in any way, while these are being carried out. They will occasionally contribute money for such causes and rest of the time just feel happy at our misery. Once the tiny middle class and the affluent Rape class start getting effected and start loosing money big time, then the fun begins.

alexis
BRFite
Posts: 468
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 22:14
Contact:

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby alexis » 08 Dec 2014 13:36

^^
economic war kind of scenarios will run foul of WTO and other international agreements. So may not be feasible. however, if we can get Pakistan recognised as a rogue state, then sanctions may be feasible.

mody
BRFite
Posts: 770
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby mody » 08 Dec 2014 14:35

Direct action like Indian govt subsidizing cotton exports, to undercut pakistan's price, would run foul of WTO. However, we can force MNC companies to get out of pakistan by enacting anti-terror funding laws, which are very difficult to comply with. Pakistan is not a very big or lucrative market for most things. Also competition may also play a part in this. Say if coke were to withdraw from pakistani market and use this in a new patriotism based ad campaign, pepsico would suffer in the Indian market.
Also, to assist in this endevour, we can try and stir up some trouble in the name of anti-americanism for some of the more visible american companies. This kind trouble like attacks on their outlets etc. or defacing their logos, would help the companies justify their decision of withdrawing from pakistan to their share holders.

Most MNCs operating in Pakistan are not really taking home huge profits from their operations.

Also, for other companies sourcing goods from pakistan, there is nothing that they produce, which these companies cannot easily source from other nations.
All of these things happen as not part of explicit written down policy, but backdoor instructions to the companies concerned.
For example, the anti-terror funding law would be an explicit hard written rule. However, anyone trying to comply with the rule, by taking the trouble to provide paperwork, would be told that this will be a futile effort. It will be impossible for them to provide all the paperwork required and hence the easiest option would be to wind up operations in pakiland over the next 6-15 months or so.

Most companies would suffer some losses in this. The compensation would be in the form of more avenues to do business in India (like multi-brand retail etc. Visa or master card withdrawing business can be rewarded by going slow on Ru-Pay cards. Insurance companies and foreign banks by greater opening up of the Indian market, higher FDI in Insurance, more banking licenses etc.).
Imagine if VISA, amex and Mastercard were to stop all operations in pakistan, the credit card and debit card business would collapse. They do not have the infrastructure to run these kind of services.

If required, the Indian govt. can offer some tax concessions for companies compying with the terror funding law, citing that complying with the new law, would mean more expenses for these companies. This would not run foul of WTO.
Besides there would be very little that pak can do to counter this. Most they would do is not allow repatriation of the proceeds form the sale of business or properties for these companies or try and take over operations of some of them. This might be done in the name of preventing large scale job losses. However, these kind of actions, would in the long run end up doing more damage to their economy, as most companies would then stay away from that shi hole.

In most cases the only viable options for pakis would to go to China for most goods and services.
This would bring us to 1 more phase of our offensive. Force an increasingly negative view of China in the minds of ordinary pakis.

dsreedhar
BRFite
Posts: 288
Joined: 10 Jan 2011 06:57

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby dsreedhar » 08 Dec 2014 23:31

Mody - How successful can the economic chokehold of pakistan work as long as external parties (china) support it? For every India's move China can make a counter move to nullify it. Chinas is not passing support, it is a very active support with an agenda. Thats my opinion.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1851
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: How to Make Pakistan Pay For Terror Activities

Postby sudeepj » 09 Dec 2014 00:28

Pakistan ko Jawab Pakistan ki bhasha me dena chahiye. (Pakistan must be replied to in a language that it understands - Modi)

1. We must provide a lot of support to insurgencies (Sindh and MQM are the most promising) within Pak.
2. Destablize Pak economy by printing Fake Pak currency notes. This is fairly low effort, and will allow us to establish contacts and relationships with criminal networks within Pakistan.
3. Impose sanctions on Western corporations such as DCN, SAAB that are willing to sell weapon systems to Pak. The sanctions must be on the military wings as well as the commercial wings of these organizations. We must bring out an annual report on the entities that do business with PakMil through a parliamentary committee and publicize it widely. The first version can start with Pakistani ordinance factories, and from there, expand it to the entities that do business with them.
4. Exploit the waters of the Indus river system. Eastern rivers completely and the Western rivers as much as we can without violating the IWT. If arbitration tries to bully us, threaten to abrogate the treaty. No one can impose an unfair treaty on 1.3 billion people.
5. Impose theater level dominance on the LoC by expediting indigenous artillery, drones etc. None of this "1 mortar ka jawab 10 mortar se, 1 goli ka jawab 10 goli se". Our approach should be, "1 mortar ka jawab us cheez se, jo Pakistani mortar ka munh band kar de", i.e. Pakistani mortar and arty positions must be destroyed by effective Counter Battery fire. The zone of conflict should be several kms into Pak territory, not our own.
6. Revenge spectaculars for terrorist spectaculars. Sink Pak ships/submarines/fighters.. for every attack on India. Whenever a Pak asset steps out of its territorial bounds, they must be looking over their shoulder for a reprisal attack by India.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kakarat, MeshaVishwas, Rishi_Tri and 58 guests