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Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timelines

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Indranil
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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Indranil » 20 Apr 2015 10:43

Zynda wrote:When called, the consultancy did not encourage him to visit their office and they clearly said that we only place freshers and do not even entertain experienced folks. When pressed further about this experience and his desire, the consultancy said there is no use for him to waste his time traveling to their place.

Point is, there is absolutely no mechanism for experienced people to gain entry and contribute towards indigenous programs in India. Without fresh lateral thinking, HAL will still be stuck with manual composite laying techniques or our structures being overweight compared to contemporary products.

I am actually quite disappointed. So with the Govt labs, its like you get in early (fresh outta school) or you don't get in at all.

I believe DRDO wanted to "attract" talented NRIs to come & work on its programs few years back. The eligibility criteria was so high that unless you played a significant role in any aero/missile stream, your application probably wouldn't pass screening test. But there are many people with good amount of experience but not "highly" accomplished who are interested in helping Indian efforts. Good luck to Govt labs on their programs with their current hiring practices.

I completely agree with this. Too many similar stories to share.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 11:36

hnair wrote:btw, Iran has similar representational model like China's. Imamlings and geeks rising up the Majilis. Their stealth fighters, stealth flying boats, stealth bicycles, stealth ICBM et al are the equivalent of those PR photos of cheen's special forces in segways and mechanized infantry riding into war using 6x6 Wolverine mould.

No one really asks questions, sitting in Isfahan or Dalian, that Doc asks here.


A lot of this is internal messaging I guess. To make the domestic audience yell china stronk! iran stronk!

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 11:38

Zynda wrote:I don't think this is completely OT to what is being discussed here. One of the issues with PSU is definitely manpower.

One of the posters here had provided a name of a consultancy in Bangalore which places folks on contracts basis to PSU/Govt. Defense Labs. A friend of mine with around 4-5 years of aero engineering experience (both in India & abroad) managed to contact the said consultancy last week regarding his desire to work in ADA/ADE/HAL Rotor Division or any of the aero indigenous product development firms in Bangalore.

When called, the consultancy did not encourage him to visit their office and they clearly said that we only place freshers and do not even entertain experienced folks. When pressed further about this experience and his desire, the consultancy said there is no use for him to waste his time traveling to their place.

Point is, there is absolutely no mechanism for experienced people to gain entry and contribute towards indigenous programs in India. Without fresh lateral thinking, HAL will still be stuck with manual composite laying techniques or our structures being overweight compared to contemporary products.

I am actually quite disappointed. So with the Govt labs, its like you get in early (fresh outta school) or you don't get in at all.

I believe DRDO wanted to "attract" talented NRIs to come & work on its programs few years back. The eligibility criteria was so high that unless you played a significant role in any aero/missile stream, your application probably wouldn't pass screening test. But there are many people with good amount of experience but not "highly" accomplished who are interested in helping Indian efforts. Good luck to Govt labs on their programs with their current hiring practices.


If you have a twitter or SM handle, I strongly request you to raise this issue with manohar parrikar and Modi and PMO (preferably all). Tweet it out. Mail them. I do think they are looking to change these sort of things and you can give it a good try.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby hnair » 20 Apr 2015 12:26

Karan M wrote:
A lot of this is internal messaging I guess. To make the domestic audience yell china stronk! iran stronk!


Absolutely, but I see a lot of posters (Spinster for eg :D ), who use this as troll-bait, with questions like "how come no UAV from DRDO? like that Golmaal Hawk of cheen"

Despite the challenges, we are blessed with two of the most self-absorbed (H&D obsessed) enemies you can find. Enemies whose military wants to look "more western than west itself", not "fight better than west". If we had agile-minded military opponents like say Israel, Bartania, South Africa or even, um, a richer Sri Lanka ( :mrgreen: ), we would have been sweating quite a bit

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby csaurabh » 20 Apr 2015 13:07

Zynda wrote:I don't think this is completely OT to what is being discussed here. One of the issues with PSU is definitely manpower.

One of the posters here had provided a name of a consultancy in Bangalore which places folks on contracts basis to PSU/Govt. Defense Labs. A friend of mine with around 4-5 years of aero engineering experience (both in India & abroad) managed to contact the said consultancy last week regarding his desire to work in ADA/ADE/HAL Rotor Division or any of the aero indigenous product development firms in Bangalore.

When called, the consultancy did not encourage him to visit their office and they clearly said that we only place freshers and do not even entertain experienced folks. When pressed further about this experience and his desire, the consultancy said there is no use for him to waste his time traveling to their place.

Point is, there is absolutely no mechanism for experienced people to gain entry and contribute towards indigenous programs in India. Without fresh lateral thinking, HAL will still be stuck with manual composite laying techniques or our structures being overweight compared to contemporary products.

I am actually quite disappointed. So with the Govt labs, its like you get in early (fresh outta school) or you don't get in at all.

I believe DRDO wanted to "attract" talented NRIs to come & work on its programs few years back. The eligibility criteria was so high that unless you played a significant role in any aero/missile stream, your application probably wouldn't pass screening test. But there are many people with good amount of experience but not "highly" accomplished who are interested in helping Indian efforts. Good luck to Govt labs on their programs with their current hiring practices.


Yup.. same for ISRO, NAL..

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 13:09

HN ji, There is a segment of folks who will never be happy be what India does. They see it through the prism of their own foibles i guess which mean that anything and everything is to be derided or criticized. I have sort of given up on them.

About agile enemies. Perhaps that'd have made us introspect too and look beyond shiny imports on R-day which look good on youtube videos and then result in scathing reports later from beancounters which say, x widget was not part of import so it really doesn't work.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2015 14:52

indranilroy wrote:^^^ Your question is why does China not trumpet its intentions?

In fact my question is the opposite. Why does the DRDO not put in better effort at PR.

The information they release is either worthless (like "rollout" of LCA or ""LUH cage removed from jig" or " Scorpene "undocked") or it is not presented in a fashion that can make people proud of what has been done. No need to announce every milestone and date.

When you call the media for a worthless cooked up event like "roll out" they will ask questions and dates. And they publish replies and remember them. if those timelines are not me then DRDO gets a kick up its backside.

The Chinese hype and publicize things after they appear and they never have failures and delays. You and I may not believe that but everyone else does.

You are right that China flew the "J-5,J-7,J-8, J-10,JF-17s,JH-7,A-5". I would discount the J5 and J7 which were simply the MiG 17 and MiG 21. India has been no slouch when it comes to aircraft - and that includes the Pushpak, Krishak, HT-2, HPT 32, Ajeet (like A5 - a modified existing design) Marut, Kiran, IJT, Saras, and Tejas. But China flew its rust buckets and learned from errors. We back out of problems and import. We backed out of Marut. We backed out of IJT (nearly anyway) and we are barely accepting the Tejas.

We are the first in the world to criticize our own technology. Names like Late Combat Aicraft and Latest Confusion in Aeronautics have been coined by Indians in India, some in the Air Force.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Zynda » 20 Apr 2015 16:30

Karan et al, unfortunately I am not on twitter or any SM (kinda weird for my age). But I encourage folks who are active on SM to use the above experience to convey it to the right concerned officials.

Edit: Here is the funny part. The said consultancy initially said they pay very low compensation and thus only hire/place freshers. My friend who is quite well off said "Money is not a problem. I am looking towards using my previous experience & to gain further by working on challenging projects that Indian labs are currently working on". Consultancy was perplexed and said "Sorry. We request you not to visit us and waste your time as well ours" :)

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 16:41

I'd laugh at how farcical the response was, but the gravity of the situation just makes me shake my head.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 16:45

Zynda, I posted your post in the thread for social media. Hope a BR person on sm can reach out and some positive change in these policies results. Thanks for sharing your experience.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 20 Apr 2015 16:51

shiv wrote:
indranilroy wrote:^^^ Your question is why does China not trumpet its intentions?

In fact my question is the opposite. Why does the DRDO not put in better effort at PR.

The information they release is either worthless (like "rollout" of LCA or ""LUH cage removed from jig" or " Scorpene "undocked") or it is not presented in a fashion that can make people proud of what has been done. No need to announce every milestone and date.

When you call the media for a worthless cooked up event like "roll out" they will ask questions and dates. And they publish replies and remember them. if those timelines are not me then DRDO gets a kick up its backside.

The Chinese hype and publicize things after they appear and they never have failures and delays. You and I may not believe that but everyone else does.

You are right that China flew the "J-5,J-7,J-8, J-10,JF-17s,JH-7,A-5". I would discount the J5 and J7 which were simply the MiG 17 and MiG 21. India has been no slouch when it comes to aircraft - and that includes the Pushpak, Krishak, HT-2, HPT 32, Ajeet (like A5 - a modified existing design) Marut, Kiran, IJT, Saras, and Tejas. But China flew its rust buckets and learned from errors. We back out of problems and import. We backed out of Marut. We backed out of IJT (nearly anyway) and we are barely accepting the Tejas.

We are the first in the world to criticize our own technology. Names like Late Combat Aicraft and Latest Confusion in Aeronautics have been coined by Indians in India, some in the Air Force.


Shiv, no doubt the DPSUs etc are pathetic at PR. But part of the reason is also when the DRDO, HAL et al do this sort of PR, you have folks like AM Matheswaran and service folks criticizing them and saying don't do hype. That's another issue. There is an element of "we decide whatever happens everywhere else" that seems to be common in service-developer interactions and this is certainly a factor.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2015 19:01

Karan M wrote:Shiv, no doubt the DPSUs etc are pathetic at PR. But part of the reason is also when the DRDO, HAL et al do this sort of PR, you have folks like AM Matheswaran and service folks criticizing them and saying don't do hype. That's another issue. There is an element of "we decide whatever happens everywhere else" that seems to be common in service-developer interactions and this is certainly a factor.

This in fact is a very important issue.

The IAF and the army have, over the decades developed a deep dislike of Indian military equipment manufacturing PSUs. I would like to dig a little deeper into this. The relationship is a strange one. A very large proportion of the equipment they use is from the DPSUs and no one can outright accuse the armed forces of being "against them". But they use every possible opportunity to excoriate them.

It seems like the Air Force and army particularly and the DPSUs are like two office colleagues who deal with each other just as much as necessary but try to avoid anything more than the bare, necessary minimum of interaction. The reported demands to keep on improving the specs of a "ready" platform like the Arjun and the fact that the air force accepted a watered down version of the Su 30 with simply a "promise of better to come" are suspicious if nothing else. The fact that a person like Arun Prakash has actually suggested a way ahead for the air force looks like there is a deep and worrying malaise in industry-armed forces relations which will not go away soon.
Last edited by shiv on 20 Apr 2015 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 20 Apr 2015 19:04

Jobs available, skills missing in Indian Aerospace & Defence sector
Both the industry and the government acknowledge that for a robust A&D industry to thrive, one of the most important resources is skilled engineers in all core engineering disciplines.

“We in India face a problem of our engineering graduates not having the practical skills to contribute, to a manufacturing industry as a whole. In the case of the A&D sector, this problem is magnified even more. Industries spend several months training them on these essential skills. India plans to transform from a defence equipment importer to an exporter of defence products. To achieve this, our engineers should be capable of designing and manufacturing these products.

The A&D sector needs specialized skills to cater to its unique requirements. A&D products need to be extremely rugged, reliable and capable of withstanding the stringent and extreme tests that they need to undergo, to make them fit for use on platforms like fighter aircraft, warships, tanks etc in a battle scenario. The entire A&D domain needs people trained to design and manufacture equipment that fulfils these needs. ” said Mr. G Raj Narayan, Founder & MD, Radel Group and Chief Mentor of DRONA – a finishing school for engineers

Recently, Mr. Rajiv Pratap Rudy, Minister of State for skill development and entrepreneurship, said at Aero India 2015 in Bengaluru “The Indian aerospace sector would need at least one million skilled workmen every year in the coming years”.

According to Aspiring Minds Report 2014 ‘Only a shocking 4 to 7 % of engineers are actually fit for jobs in the core engineering sectors. A World Bank study 2010 shows that ‘employers are not satisfied with the fresh graduates they recruit

According to the survey conducted by Manpower Group in 2013 ‘more than half of the employers were surveyed in India (61%) mentioned that insufficient skills prevent them to fill the vacant positions in their companies. In addition, the survey also mentioned that engineers are second most and technicians fourth most difficult employees to be hired worldwide, remaining unchanged every year

Commenting on the solution to this problem, Narayan added “The solution is specialized training. There has been a lot of emphasis of late, on ‘Skilling India’. Most of the initiatives under this program are focused on skilling the workforce at the technician level – electrician, machine operator, etc. Even for the graduate engineer, while we find many training institutes for software and computer hardware (assembly & troubleshooting), there are very few training schools for engineers in core engineering disciplines, especially Electronics and Aerospace Engineering Design, and none that focus on product design with reliability, safety, robust processes, and technical documentation. We need to make our engineering graduates skilled not only in Manufacturing but also in design. We need to not just make in India, but Create in India, Design in India and Innovation India, so as to create and own all the IPRs ourselves. For this, we need to skill our engineers not just as computer operators but as intelligent designers and engineers in practice. ”

“The A&D sector is unique in that it needs multi-disciplinary skills and knowledge, to enable design and manufacture of any equipment. The need of the hour therefore is to create unique training schools that focus on creating skilled engineers with multidisciplinary domain knowledge across Electronics, Software, Mechanical, Hydraulics, Structures and Pneumatics etc. Such a school should provide the graduate engineer (or fresh recruit in an industry in this sector) an insight into the design and development cycle of defense and aerospace systems that meet some of the most stringent global standards of performance, reliability and efficiency. The engineer needs to undergo a complete transformation of his thought process, by which the critical, analytical and innovative skills blossom. At the same time, the graduate needs to be trained in systematic quality analysis and documentation processes. A major area where our engineers need training is in communication – written and oral communication skills, business etiquette and time management too. ” he continued

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Philip » 22 Apr 2015 09:28

If the GOI is erious,they should whip up a campaign in the leading univs and schools to attract the BYTs,"bright young things" of India into serving the country in the scientific/defence sector. Walk-in unterviews should also be made available to meet shortfalls as we see in the pvt. corporate sector.A new mentality to achieve the "make/made in India" mantra/objective ahs to be created for the situation to improve.Here is another sad tale and blame game,this time with Israel.

Delays hit Indo-Israel anti-missile systems; Army, Air Force vulnerable
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | 22 Apr, 2015,

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/art ... aign=cppst

The blame game for the delays is on, with both sides holding each other responsible for slackness or lack of dedicated commitment. While the Israeli position has been that the systems and parts being supplied by DRDO do not meet quality standards, DRDO contends the developers in Israel promised more than they could deliver. A senior DRDO official said that "all efforts are on to expedite the projects to fulfill the need of the services at the earliest."

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Kanson » 22 Apr 2015 23:40

Unless this is the standard case of 'Mind sees what it wanted to see' and if we can move the gaze away from the 'structured narrative' driven by the media (as visible) we could able to appreciate and understand a lot.

I say this as...... DRDO takes only 5 yrs from drawing board to delivery, says Avinash Chander. And how many of us know this(it is not he first time he said this)...judging by the replies so far on this topic in this thread(and others)...my opening statement holds true.
Today, DRDO takes only four or five years to move a system from drawing board to delivery[. Take software defined radio, which involves cutting-edge technology. Within three-and-a-half years, our Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory, Dehradun, developed the system and offered it to the user, who finds its performance better than his demands.

Likewise, our Electronics Research and Development Establishment, Bangalore has developed better, and cheaper, radars than many imported systems. The Weapon Locating Radar and Ashlesha (low-level radar for mountains) for example.


It is not only these that are listed, In the area of missiles they already demonstrated. And in complex hypersonic Brahmos-II project too they are sticking to 5 years. Current hot topic, in LCA sub-systems too they have shown...

Do we see a great debate on this in the molds of "rag to riches" story....

We fail to realize that DRDO is doing or trying to do world class projects in the same sarkari setup that we loathe very often. As i said, it is want we want to see...all points raised in the interview are relevant to this thread topic...so quoting in full...

The day after he relinquished charge as chief of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO), Avinash Chander had a freewheeling chat with Business Standard. He, however, declined to address questions about the government's controversial termination of his contract only days after renewing it for 18 months. Edited excerpts:

What lies ahead for you?

I have a cooling-off period of one year, in which I will not be accepting employment in any field relating to defence. However, I could get a job where there is no linkage with DRDO - teaching in a university, for example. Hopefully, I will contribute somewhere. The 'Make in India' initiative offers opportunities for people with experience and knowledge.

It is noteworthy that the government has not chosen a successor to you.

Not really. They will probably set up a search committee who will find my successor. Until then, the defence secretary will temporarily fill the post.

There has long been a proposal to trifurcate the three important posts that the DRDO chief holds - head of DRDO, scientific advisor to the Raksha Mantri, and secretary (defence R&D). Do you believe your successor might hold only one or two of those posts?

I don't believe a change is warranted. This is a bogey that has been going around - that the DRDO is over-centralised since the chief holds too many posts.

The Rama Rao Committee (on DRDO re-organisation) strongly recommended the three posts remain vested in a single person. The Naresh Chandra committee had recommended separation but not trifurcation. The government will have to take a call.

The other two scientific departments (space and atomic energy) have no such separation. The space commission chairman also heads ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation). There is no separate advisor for space matters.

One cannot segregate tightly-linked functions - one person running the organisation, another advising the minister, and a third doing administration. There will naturally be points of difference between them. Is the (defence) ministry prepared and equipped to then choose?

The DRDO has been criticised for delays and poor quality.

The DRDO's performance is being invariably judged by events of a decade ago. When people talk of delays, they cite the light combat aircraft and the Arjun tank, both of which have been delivered. We need to get out of those historical references and realise the current position, which is that the military has ordered Rs 1.7 lakh-crore worth of DRDO-developed equipment.

Today, DRDO takes only four or five years to move a system from drawing board to delivery. Take software defined radio, which involves cutting-edge technology. Within three-and-a-half years, our Defence Electronics Applications Laboratory, Dehradun, developed the system and offered it to the user, who finds its performance better than his demands.

Likewise, our Electronics Research and Development Establishment, Bangalore has developed better, and cheaper, radars than many imported systems. The Weapon Locating Radar and Ashlesha (low-level radar for mountains) for example.

Shouldn't the military be pushing these projects?

Yes, they should be demanding and pushing for the products. The forces and the DRDO must jointly plan future equipping: what must be indigenised, what should be imported; what is the short-term perspective and the long-term need. How can we involve the private sector? For example, in the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun system, the DRDO is cooperating with the private sector. Similarly, the Astra class of air-to-air missiles can easily be built by the private sector. So, we are looking for a production partner in the private sector.

The private sector can also build combat-ready systems like the Akash surface-to-air missile (SAM), since they are much freer to develop export markets. Our DPSUs (defence public sector units) are not structured to do that. They have been too inward-looking and order-oriented.

The problems of export permissions remain. Defence exports have been hindered by our "peace-loving" foreign policy rhetoric.

That is in our own hands. What is so indefensible about defence export? We don't intend to violate the Missile Technology Control Regime or some other regime. Deploying ethics in this matter is very peculiar. If it is moral to import weaponry, how can it be immoral to export it?

India's shift from international weapons sanctions to a position where the world is trying to sell us weaponry is a big change for the DRDO.

For the DRDO, this is a driver for change. It will have to come out of its comfort zone of developing weaponry that is already available on the international market. It will have to shift to cutting-edge technologies.

The DRDO has demonstrated its readiness to move to a higher technology plane. The Astra missile, for example, is a world-class air-to-air missile in terms of its range, accuracy and capabilities. It is comparable or better than most of the missiles international vendors are offering us.

But are the users happy with these DRDO products?

The air force is extremely happy with the Astra. After the missile is tested next month on a live target, it will go onto a fast track. Similarly, the army says that with the supply of DRDO's Akash and Akash-2 surface-to-air missile, they are dropping the planned import of a short-range surface-to-air-missile (SR-SAM). What remains to be done is to demonstrate to the services that these products can be built in large numbers, in good quality, and without delay. The production agencies must give them that confidence.

Transferring R&D into production has always been a bottleneck.

Precisely. DRDO has been advocating that a production agency must be guaranteed a big order, even while a weapons system is being developed. Of course, that order will be placed only if the weapon is developed successfully. But a firm order will encourage the private sector to invest and to participate in the development. It will also bring down the induction time cycle; we have been advocating that the first prototype itself should be built by the production agency.

But selecting your production agency gets mired in procedure. The ministry of defence (MoD) does not want to nominate a particular company...

We make the rules, don't we? Somewhere, the government has to take a decision. There are no more than 5-10 private companies are capable of participating in development and building in large numbers. They can all be asked to quote. Even nominating a particular company should not be a problem, providing you are distributing orders to all of them - one to the Tatas, one to Larsen & Toubro, etc - and you are open about it. Once these companies establish themselves, start making them compete. Then it becomes survival of the fittest.

Do you see any signs this is happening?

There is a much stronger impetus in MoD to make this happen. The procedures are being simplified to make it easier to participate and there is a dialogue with the industry. It will certainly happen because there is no other way.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 23 Apr 2015 16:11

I would watch the subject of the following news item carefully - we need to check back in 2 years to see where it's going
pankajs wrote:http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=118331
Railways to use csir-indian institute of petroleum (csir-iip) technology dehradun to set up plants for plastic to diesel conversion- Dr. Harshvardhan
Indian Railways is soon to set up plants to manufacture diesel for mechanical traction with technology patented by scientists at the CSIR-Indian Institute of Petroleum (CSIR-IIP) Dehradun.

Announcing this in Dehradun today, Dr Harsh Vardhan, Union Minister for Science and Technology and Vice President, CSIR, laid out the roadmap for further exploitation of opportunities in alternative fuel sources. The country’s premier research establishment in hydrocarbons has achieved significant success in reducing national dependence on fossil fuels.

“I have myself campaigned on the streets of Delhi against pollution and plastic proliferation. Today, I am glad to announce that diesel conforming to Euro-5 specifications in sulphur content has become a reality thanks to the CSIR-IIP & GAIL’s diligence and ingenuity,” he said.

The rapid decision to embrace the technology by the world’s largest railway network, Indian Railways, speaks volumes for the Narendra Modi government’s resolve to apply out-of-the-box ideas to reduce India’s carbon footprint. The Minister remarked: “United States President Barack Obama has described Shri Modi as India’s reformer-in-chief. This is not surprising.”

CSIR-IIP, which is part of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), is currently blazing the trail in offering solutions to global warming. Reducing India’s high dependence on imports and sparing the fossil fuels for the future generations constitute the major focus of its present R&D thrust.

He said, “At the inauguration of the Indian Science Congress in Mumbai in January, I had stated our government’s resolve not to be distracted by falling oil prices by continuing to fund R&D into clean energy. I had CSIR-IIP in mind at the time because I was confident that the time when I could announce to the world this amazing news was drawing near.”

The Minister elaborated: “We are the first to have the capability to convert 1 tonne of broken buckets, mugs, toothpaste tubes, bottle caps and other Polyolefins products into 850 litres of the cleanest grade of diesel. This is the best news yet for the planet this year because henceforth plastic waste will be viewed more as a resource than a nuisance.”

The Minister, who visited the IIP’s campus, inaugurated the Advanced Triblogy Research Centre. He was accompanied by Dr M.O.Garg, Director-General of CSIR who is also the Director of the prestigious establishment. Dr Sudeep Kumar, Head, PPD of CSIR and other scientists were also present on the occasion.

Jet fuel from Jatropha

Another feather in CSIR-IIP’s cap is the successful project to produce low-carbon jet fuel from the inedible, drought-resistant Jatropha plant. This has already captured the imagination of several governments worldwide.

Dr Harsh Vardhan said, “We have gone several steps ahead in developing alternative sources of jet fuel. Jatropha apart, CSIR-IIP has the knowledge to make jet fuel out of any non-edible oil –even the waste cooking oil from our kitchens is soon to become prized material in the market.” The Minister, who has initiated several renewable energy missions in the national capital –including a project to run public toilets with solar power-fuelled taps, exhaust fans and lights – said “We must make a social movement out of alternative fuel use. Our cultural heritage has been one of the most environment friendly. Our villagers have used cowdung cakes as a fuel source for thousands of years. In recent decades we had been following the mad path of over-consumption. Now, thanks to our scientists we can revert to our original mindset of preservation.”

While moving fast with alternative fuels, CSIR-IIP has continued with its founding mission of developing cleaner forms of fossil fuels. This has led to the development of world class sweetening catalyst which helps to remove excessive foul smelling mercaptans from LPG. After capturing the Indian market, recently 600 Kg of this new material hit the international market”, Dr Harsh Vardhan announced.

The Minister remarked that the advanced training courses on Petroleum Refining and Petrochemicals which have been run by the institute right from inception for the Indian hydrocarbon sector has made a major impact on human resource development. He stressed on the importance of imparting necessary skills to operate and optimize plant operations at the international level.

“Energy and environment are two side of the same coin”, he pointed out. “I urge our scientists to constantly strive to develop new technologies and products with zero defect and zero effect which can help to produce a higher GDP per unit of energy consumed. India must be at the forefront of fighting climate change. We would thus help realise the vision of our Prime Minister and President, CSIR.”

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby durairaaj » 23 Apr 2015 18:46

shiv wrote:I would watch the subject of the following news item carefully - we need to check back in 2 years to see where it's going ...


You don't have to wait for 2 years. I can predict now that this plant will not generate enough energy to power even the reception desk or the A/c room of the babu heading the dept/office.
People who understand thermodynamics and human labour really well know that it will consume much more energy to collect all those trash buckets and mugs than the diesel obtainable from it.
What you can expect in 2 years is another scientist/prof/Drs (PhDs). in another place representing another lab pontificating about wind energy generation ability of farting cows.
Most of these kind of projects are done by some scientists/Phds who have reached their mid-llife, lost their imaginative ability to do research and realized that they really cannot contribute to the meaningful advancement of science/technology but got a permanent position heading a government lab's section or dept.
What other way to get the name and fame.
Snakeoil sales men like these claiming to solve world's/country's problem are detrimental to the promotion of real scientists trying to solve the problem.
I am surprised that they even have the gall to claim that Jatropa fuel as a "feather in the cap" low-carbon fuel. Perhaps when we go back to live in caves with feather caps, Jatropa will be a fuel to be respected.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby enaiel » 23 Apr 2015 21:05

Why the hate? This technology if proven in India has major export potential to western countries that already do the manual labour of collecting and separating plastic from trash for recycling purposes. In fact it has export potential to nearly every country in the world that's currently trying to generate energy from their trash. The Europeans are also trying to do similar things, and are probably ahead in this field, and while they get applauded for their efforts in their country and the world, when indians try the same, we get only insults from other indians.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby NRao » 23 Apr 2015 22:00

enaiel wrote:Why the hate? This technology if proven in India has major export potential to western countries that already do the manual labour of collecting and separating plastic from trash for recycling purposes. In fact it has export potential to nearly every country in the world that's currently trying to generate energy from their trash. The Europeans are also trying to do similar things, and are probably ahead in this field, and while they get applauded for their efforts in their country and the world, when indians try the same, we get only insults from other indians.


"also trying"? http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable ... eaply.html. You can do it in your garage.

The question is economics. Is it cheap enough. Can this method beat today's oil prices - is the question.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 23 Apr 2015 22:36

durairaaj wrote:People who understand thermodynamics and human labour really well know that it will consume much more energy to collect all those trash buckets and mugs than the diesel obtainable from it.


Will you kindly elaborate on this from a Thermodynamic pov ???

durairaaj wrote: Snakeoil sales men like these claiming to solve world's/country's problem are detrimental to the promotion of real scientists trying to solve the problem.


Will you be kind enough to post the names of some of the "real scientists" whom we are not promoting and instead wasting resources into Thermodynamic massacring "snakeoil salesmen" ???

durairaaj wrote:I am surprised that they even have the gall to claim that Jatropa fuel as a "feather in the cap" low-carbon fuel. Perhaps when we go back to live in caves with feather caps, Jatropa will be a fuel to be respected.


Elaborate on this as well from Thermodynamic pov. Why do you think this research is a waste of time ???

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Karan M » 23 Apr 2015 23:01

Manu Pubby above is the worst excuse for a journalist... multiple hachet jobs ... called out even by an ex CNS for the BS he does. Also ran a scurrilous campaign against the Arjun. No prizes for guessing he is one of Coup-ta's chelas

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 23 Apr 2015 23:02

Zynda wrote:I don't think this is completely OT to what is being discussed here. One of the issues with PSU is definitely manpower.

One of the posters here had provided a name of a consultancy in Bangalore which places folks on contracts basis to PSU/Govt. Defense Labs. A friend of mine with around 4-5 years of aero engineering experience (both in India & abroad) managed to contact the said consultancy last week regarding his desire to work in ADA/ADE/HAL Rotor Division or any of the aero indigenous product development firms in Bangalore.

When called, the consultancy did not encourage him to visit their office and they clearly said that we only place freshers and do not even entertain experienced folks. When pressed further about this experience and his desire, the consultancy said there is no use for him to waste his time traveling to their place.

Point is, there is absolutely no mechanism for experienced people to gain entry and contribute towards indigenous programs in India. Without fresh lateral thinking, HAL will still be stuck with manual composite laying techniques or our structures being overweight compared to contemporary products.

I am actually quite disappointed. So with the Govt labs, its like you get in early (fresh outta school) or you don't get in at all.

I believe DRDO wanted to "attract" talented NRIs to come & work on its programs few years back. The eligibility criteria was so high that unless you played a significant role in any aero/missile stream, your application probably wouldn't pass screening test. But there are many people with good amount of experience but not "highly" accomplished who are interested in helping Indian efforts. Good luck to Govt labs on their programs with their current hiring practices.


Being a central government body it has to follow laid down rules and regulations and hence cannot allow anybody who merely shows interest in joining DRDO to have his/her wishes fulfilled. If recruiting in DRDO is made that easy then in no time it will become a forte for bhai-bhatijaas working on projects of national importance. By following a stringent entry conditions for experienced people DRDO actually does more good to itself, of course their will be cases like your friend who honestly want to work with passion for Indian aero programmes but the risk of DRDO being turned into bhai-bhatijaa institute is far greater and more damaging than losing a few people like your friend.

You think DRDO's eligibility criteria is tough ??? Have a look at IIT's eligibility criteria for hiring JRF's, SRF's, RA's, PM's, PE's. The amount of experience and capabilities they ask for makes one wonder why the F would somebody with that much experience/capability would want to work on that dirt poor pay (pay for PM's and PE's are pretty good though) when he can easily get selected in any top MNC ??? This said DRDO does hire people with experience as scientists, SRF's and even as contract engineer (only seen this for ADA don't know about other labs since basically DRDO's hiring policy of outside skilled manpower is basically non existent). Ask your friend to look to get hired in some pvt. aero firm since a truckload of work from DRDO/NAL/HAL is going to come to them in the recent future. Though if he really wants to get in some government aero lab then ask him to keep an eye out for ads in local newspaper, job sites and their official sites all the time since they can give out an ad for recruitment any time without any prior notice.

DRDO engages with small pvt. firms to develop critical technologies so by getting into one of the pvt. aero firms he can still end up working on projects from DRDO provided that the firm has a history of working with DRDO/other government aero labs or has an intend to do that.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Vayutuvan » 24 Apr 2015 01:44

NRao wrote:The question is economics. Is it cheap enough. Can this method beat today's oil prices - is the question.

NRao garu: If the labor for collection is cheap enough yes. It would not work in Europe or Americas (yes - Mexico included) because as you alreday know the wages are high. For India also, it is only a temporary fix. As India develops the wages become higher moving the breakeven point higher.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby enaiel » 24 Apr 2015 02:10

The manual labour is already being done in western countries to separate plastics for recycling, organics for composting and trash for land-fills. And it's not about being cheaper than oil, but to be able to do something with trash other than putting it in a landfill. It has become a serious industry in Europe with most of Europe exporting their trash to Norway to generate energy/electricity.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby NRao » 24 Apr 2015 03:39

enaiel wrote:The manual labour is already being done in western countries to separate plastics for recycling, organics for composting and trash for land-fills. And it's not about being cheaper than oil, but to be able to do something with trash other than putting it in a landfill. It has become a serious industry in Europe with most of Europe exporting their trash to Norway to generate energy/electricity.


This is going ot, but .....

Oil price has to play a role, how can it not? It is laws that force citizens to pay for uneconomical recycling plants.

Norway stuff: http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... ste-energy Is a business. Make a loss and ...........

On "manual labor": Smart cities will change everything. It has already started. We have already reduced the crews from 8 to 2. It will reduce further.

Done.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby chetak » 24 Apr 2015 07:08

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:Shiv, no doubt the DPSUs etc are pathetic at PR. But part of the reason is also when the DRDO, HAL et al do this sort of PR, you have folks like AM Matheswaran and service folks criticizing them and saying don't do hype. That's another issue. There is an element of "we decide whatever happens everywhere else" that seems to be common in service-developer interactions and this is certainly a factor.

This in fact is a very important issue.

The IAF and the army have, over the decades developed a deep dislike of Indian military equipment manufacturing PSUs. I would like to dig a little deeper into this. The relationship is a strange one. A very large proportion of the equipment they use is from the DPSUs and no one can outright accuse the armed forces of being "against them". But they use every possible opportunity to excoriate them.

It seems like the Air Force and army particularly and the DPSUs are like two office colleagues who deal with each other just as much as necessary but try to avoid anything more than the bare, necessary minimum of interaction. The reported demands to keep on improving the specs of a "ready" platform like the Arjun and the fact that the air force accepted a watered down version of the Su 30 with simply a "promise of better to come" are suspicious if nothing else. The fact that a person like Arun Prakash has actually suggested a way ahead for the air force looks like there is a deep and worrying malaise in industry-armed forces relations which will not go away soon.


BEL, PSU shipbuilders and others have been nurtured by the IN over long periods of time. This approach did not work with HALs for reasons too numerous to go into here but the IN did genuinely try.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 24 Apr 2015 08:40

DRDO project for jawans posted in extreme conditions falls flat
An ambitious project of the Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS), under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), during the Eleventh Five-Year Plan for improving physical and mental health performance of army jawans and other service personnel posted in extreme cold or hot weather conditions such as Siachen, Drass and Rajasthan, has fallen flat with severe irregularities found in an internal audit.

The audit carried out by the office of the Principal Controller of Defence Accounts last year found salient deficiencies in the project execution. It found that financial planning and monitoring was not appropriate.

“Overall expenditure incurred in the project out of the planned budget of 34.56 crore is only 38 per cent till November 2013. Non-utilisation of funds optimally is a strong indication of failure of financial planning and also raises questions on the physical progress towards achievement of the objectives of the projects,” the report said.

“There is no centralised expenditure monitoring. The requite registers viz project register, project sanction register, subsidiary registers consumable register and project commitment register as required for accurate and uniform method of project fund accounting are not being maintained by the lab,” it said.

The report found that a mobile lab was created after procurement of one Swaraj Mazda. The original proposal was procurement of two Swaraj Mazdas – one for high altitude and one for desert trials. Only one desert trial was carried out and the mobile lab was lying unutilised for a long time and even the vehicle was put on static run, the audit found.

The report said: “The vehicles were intended to be procured, as these were expected to be very useful for collection of data and samples during field conditions but put to use only once. It is also not clear as regards purpose of the mobile lab after completion of the project.”

“The lab has made warm hand gloves for protection from extreme cold conditions. However, the user response to these prototypes is not available on record,” the report said.

The project, ‘Human performance enhancement under different operational environment’, was proposed for a period of 60 months. It started in 2009 with a sanction of 34.56 crore but 26.19 crore was spent. It aimed at facilitation of acclimatisation and performance of service personnel under different operational conditions.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2015 07:17

What sick joke from DRDO. These people are asking for a foreign company to fulfil their requirement and are ruling out an Indian company right at the outset. The item does not look too high tech.
http://idrw.org/drdo-scouts-landing-gea ... more-62481
What the developers are looking for is a landing gear kit consisting of wheels, tires and hydraulic braking system, essential to meet the take-off and landing requirement. Interested vendor will be required to design, supply and integrate the landing gear kit with the existing nose and main landing gear while meeting the requirements of landing loads, braking distance etc.

for smooth operation of the aircraft. DRDO has stipulated that vendors should have prior experience of supplying and/or developing similar items for other UAVs/light manned aircraft.


There is exactly no Indian company with "prior experience of supplying and/or developing similar items for other UAVs/light manned aircraft." - that means that Indians vendors will not even get a chance. And why? Presumably because DRDO whodesigned UAV without wheel and have still not managed to make a UAV with wheels now wants the wheels for an old UAV double quick so they can later post on DRDO techfocus as a great success of DRDO effort.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2015 07:56

Somehow this news of DRDO calling for a vendor "experienced in making UAV/light aircraft" to supply them with undercarriage sets for their ancient wonder of the world the renamed UAV Nishant has irritated and upset me. I will try and explain why.

Time and again I have interacted with senior DRDO people who have, in a very matter-of-fact way indicated that for some items that are not embargoed and are not very high tech, it makes sense to simply buy them off the open market. Fine. Sounds very reasonable.

But look at it this way. the DRDO itself takes as much time as it likes to develop technologies and we give them a long rope because we understand that development of new technology takes time. Fair enough. But surely, the DRDO should be equally wiling to give an Indian private vendor a reasonably long time to develop a "low tech non embargoed item" like wheels for renamed Nishant (to be called Panchi after foreign undercarriage arrives).

Do you folks see what is happening here. DRDO takes as long as it need to develop tech that is unavailable to anyone and pats itself on the back. then it tries to "speed up" the process by importing "low tech non embargoed" things. The DRDO takes all the credit for development of tech but does not give local vendors the opportunity and time to develop something. Later the DRDO wears a halo and says "Well we have no local vendor because they do not make even low tech things while we are doing cutting edge stuff. So we are forced to import from abroad"

Ultimately this is about good leadership, management, funding and foresight about what is good for the nation in the long run. I have myself cursed the air force for not depending on local industry - but let me set that record straight in another post by showing that even the AF has done such things. The DRDO should let some local firm make this undercarriage. they should not take credit for this renamed Nishant now called Panchi unless they can make in India. just my thoughts

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Gyan » 25 Apr 2015 09:46

+1 shiv to your post and last few posts

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Zynda » 25 Apr 2015 11:31

Sagar G wrote: DRDO engages with small pvt. firms to develop critical technologies so by getting into one of the pvt. aero firms he can still end up working on projects from DRDO provided that the firm has a history of working with DRDO/other government aero labs or has an intend to do that.

Excellent suggestion sir!

Point is how to find out these small Pvt firms which engages with DRDO in developing critical technologies. If you look at some of the more well-known Engineering services websites, they all mention having accounts with NAL/HAL etc. What they do is get a very low key project from one of these Govt organizations, where the deliverables are vague and the project scope itself is contracted. They are not interested in working with Govt Orgs. These engineering services then use the above as a marketing strategy to get work from abroad (Oh, Look at us...we are capable enough to help major Indian labs with their issues).

But the point is to engage with Indian efforts in such a way that some difference is made to the program by bringing in knowledge which may or may not be present in India currently.

Ex: Prior experience with Aerodynamics so that drag reduction of LCA can happen at accelerated times. I am sure the engineers at ADA/NAL will get to the set milestones eventually (via testing and refining their CFD formulations) but if a person with exposure to such techniques can accelerate the process (more accurate setting up of CFD formulation), the program moves faster.

BTW, just to put this out. My friend is in structures and when he did some Google search to find Pvt. Organizations who are involved with Govt Organizations in a major way, he found zilch. However through some contacts, he did find one player who was engaged with HAL Sitara's program in significant way but since the future of Sitara itself is in question, the said company has reduced their engagement status and is now just another Engineering Services Company looking for pieces of meat from abroad.

Also note that due to personal reasons, he is not willing to leave Bangalore. So if anyone can find such firms, they can either post the names here or I can provide my email info so that it can be taken offline.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 25 Apr 2015 14:34

shiv wrote:What sick joke from DRDO. These people are asking for a foreign company to fulfil their requirement and are ruling out an Indian company right at the outset. The item does not look too high tech.
http://idrw.org/drdo-scouts-landing-gea ... more-62481


Saar your assumptions are wrong and hence both your posts are invalidated. I believe this is the T.E. based on which you are getting angry with DRDO. If you scroll down and see the "Type of Tender" in the left column it's being given as Open. In an Open tender of course global companies can participate through their Indian branches but this category of tender is meant for Indian vendors primarily and be assured that already a selected numbers of Indian vendors have received T.E. by post for this tender. A complete opposite of what you say in your next post about Indian vendors not being given a chance to develop technologies. Also this tells us that the vendors have previously worked with DRDO in developing the same and DRDO is confident enough that they have acquired enough knowledge to develop such technologies without their hand holding. All in all a good signal that the pvt. sector is being given more technical work than being spoon fed.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2015 14:38

Sagar G wrote:
shiv wrote:What sick joke from DRDO. These people are asking for a foreign company to fulfil their requirement and are ruling out an Indian company right at the outset. The item does not look too high tech.
http://idrw.org/drdo-scouts-landing-gea ... more-62481


Saar your assumptions are wrong and hence both your posts are invalidated. I believe this is the T.E. based on which you are getting angry with DRDO. If you scroll down and see the "Type of Tender" in the left column it's being given as Open. In an Open tender of course global companies can participate through their Indian branches but this category of tender is meant for Indian vendors primarily and be assured that already a selected numbers of Indian vendors have received T.E. by post for this tender. A complete opposite of what you say in your next post about Indian vendors not being given a chance to develop technologies. Also this tells us that the vendors have previously worked with DRDO in developing the same and DRDO is confident enough that they have acquired enough knowledge to develop such technologies without their hand holding. All in all a good signal that the pvt. sector is being given more technical work than being spoon fed.

Fair enough. Let us see what happens - I am posting this stuff on this thread because I am going to be watching. Validity or otherwise of anyone's posts is completely irrelevant. What is happening in our defence industrial sector is what I am concerned about and I have been watching it far too long. There won't be a happier person than me if I am wrong - so I will wait, in good faith, to see where this goes

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 25 Apr 2015 14:48

Zynda wrote:BTW, just to put this out. My friend is in structures and when he did some Google search to find Pvt. Organizations who are involved with Govt Organizations in a major way, he found zilch.


This pleases me.

Zynda wrote:Also note that due to personal reasons, he is not willing to leave Bangalore. So if anyone can find such firms, they can either post the names here or I can provide my email info so that it can be taken offline.


Ask him to call up a few consultancies who do recruitments for aero firms in Bengaluru, also he can himself look for aero firms working in Bengaluru and directly contact them for any relevant vacancies. If he has contacts within DRDO then they can guide him to such firms as well. Keep an eye on the ADA website's recruitment section as well. Google fails to find pvt. orgs. working with govt. bodies in a major way but surely it can find aero firms working in Bengaluru. That's all I can think off.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 25 Apr 2015 14:52

shiv wrote:Fair enough. Let us see what happens - I am posting this stuff on this thread because I am going to be watching. Validity or otherwise of anyone's posts is completely irrelevant. What is happening in our defence industrial sector is what I am concerned about and I have been watching it far too long. There won't be a happier person than me if I am wrong - so I will wait, in good faith, to see where this goes


I understand saar. Also this tender has most probably gone to MSME's so another one of your old points to be checked regarding technology not permeating to micro level in India.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby shiv » 25 Apr 2015 15:10

Sagar G wrote:In an Open tender of course global companies can participate through their Indian branches but this category of tender is meant for Indian vendors primarily and be assured that already a selected numbers of Indian vendors have received T.E. by post for this tender. A complete opposite of what you say in your next post about Indian vendors not being given a chance to develop technologies. Also this tells us that the vendors have previously worked with DRDO in developing the same and DRDO is confident enough that they have acquired enough knowledge to develop such technologies without their hand holding. All in all a good signal that the pvt. sector is being given more technical work than being spoon fed.


Sagar G - your link refers to an "Annexure A". Annexure A is part of a 23 page pdf that is downloadable from the link below, marked as "form and spec" under no 343 in the live tenders page below
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/liveTenders.jsp

Please go through the pdf. It is as you say, and "open tender". It very clearly invites Indian and foreign bidders and does not make any special concession to Indian bidders. But when we get to Annexure A, this is what I find on page 20. The bolded part is what got my attention
Vendor is required to design, supply and integrate the landing gear kit with the
existing nose and main landing gear while meeting the requirements of landing loads,
braking distance etc. for smooth operation of the aircraft. Vendor should have prior
experience of supplying/developing similar items for other UAVs/light manned aircrafts
and is required to provide references along with technical quotation.


You say that Indian vendors have already received this for bidding. I would be happy to hear the names of Indian vendors who have prior experience in developing similar items for other UAVs and light manned aircraft. That clause looks like a killer clause to me. A company that has experience in motorbikes or automobiles may be able to do this even if they have not done it before - but if they have not done it before their bid can be wajib ul qatl'd

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 25 Apr 2015 15:57

shiv wrote:Please go through the pdf. It is as you say, and "open tender". It very clearly invites Indian and foreign bidders and does not make any special concession to Indian bidders. But when we get to Annexure A, this is what I find on page 20. The bolded part is what got my attention
Vendor is required to design, supply and integrate the landing gear kit with the
existing nose and main landing gear while meeting the requirements of landing loads,
braking distance etc. for smooth operation of the aircraft. Vendor should have prior
experience of supplying/developing similar items for other UAVs/light manned aircrafts
and is required to provide references along with technical quotation.


You say that Indian vendors have already received this for bidding. I would be happy to hear the names of Indian vendors who have prior experience in developing similar items for other UAVs and light manned aircraft. That clause looks like a killer clause to me. A company that has experience in motorbikes or automobiles may be able to do this even if they have not done it before - but if they have not done it before their bid can be wajib ul qatl'd


For some unknown reason the PDF won't open on my pc, it is giving an error. The list of vendors to which this has been sent isn't going to be made public so that companies don't know for sure who their competitors are and to stop corruption. The clause you quote has been put there for a reason, you cannot allow logically any tom, dick and harry to participate in a tender. If a technically incompetent company with no prior experience wins the tender then how are they supposed to deliver on the tender terms ??? So to keep such elements out, necessary provisions are put so that only technically competent companies participate in the tender. Don't get fooled by the open category tag, open doesn't mean you and I can send a bid. I think if you read the whole tender document then at some place the condition for any interested company to participate must have been mentioned.

Though I must add that I have been unable to find yet any Indian manufacturer who makes UAV landing gear kit. We would have to wait for further news to see who wins the tender.

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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby durairaaj » 25 Apr 2015 16:02

^^ this is the problem with all of the PSU tenders. Their tenders are all filled with 'catch-22' clauses.

This is the fundamental difference between vendor development in private and govt. units.
Private sector people work with small businesses and entrepreneurs, they take risks and aid them in growth during the development. Govt. tenders ask for badge of honors and in addition Govt. people ask for commissions and kickbacks. As an entrepreneur, it's not worth to deal with Govt. sectors and would rather look for "meat thrown from abroad".

I'm talking about my first hand experience.

To Sagar G: Answering your question abt thermodynamics will derail the thread. But the links posted by Nrao will sufficiently answer your questions. Also, try to look for +ve & -ve entropy, energy density, cracking and polymerisation. "All that's liquid and burns is not diesel." About scientists: I have worked (research) in a CSIR lab, NIT, IIT, Indian private company, US university, US national lab and US private company for atleast 1 year in each and 14 years in total. I have seen them first hand and know their work ethic and approach to solving a scientific problem. Naming people in public forums will be harassment and let's leave it at this. Just my point is attention grabbers are not people working to solve real problems.

To enaiel: It's not about hating home grown system. It's about fundamental understanding of chemistry, energy, entropy and economics associated with human labor and process engineering. Please don't wield the national flag every time somebody raises opposition on fundamentals.

Philip
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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Philip » 25 Apr 2015 16:15

http://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Trends/ ... -companies
Billionaires end dominance of state-owned companies

NEETA LAL, Contributing writer
NEW DELHI -- The recent foray by tycoon Anil Ambani into India's defense industry underscores the private sector's swift expansion in this hitherto strictly government-only sector.

On March 5, Reliance Infrastructure paid $132 million for an initial stake of 18% in Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering, the country's largest shipbuilding and heavy industry company. It wants to increase its share to at least 25.1% in order to take control, with the intention of becoming "the country's biggest defense manufacturer."

The Reliance group subsidiary is also in talks with Eurocopter of France, Kamov of Russia, and Sikorsky of the U.S. about technological tie-ups. Company sources said that the company plans to bid for upcoming tenders to make hundreds of military helicopters valued at about $4 billion. If it wins the contracts, the helicopters will likely be made in a proposed 5,000-acre defense and aerospace infrastructure facility called Dhirubhai Ambani Defence Park -- named after the billionaire's father.

Ambani is facing competition from a slew of other domestic companies also eyeing a larger share of a sector estimated to generate $100 billion in revenue over the next 10 years. Not least from his older brother Mukesh, who helms Reliance Aerospace Technologies and has a tie-up with France's Dassault Aviation. He harbors ambitions to become one of the country's largest manufacturers of combat jets.

Beefing up defense

Tata group, Mahindra & Mahindra, Larsen & Toubro, Punj Lloyd and Bharat Forge are also fighting for a bigger slice of an industry expected to generate $100 billion in revenue over the next decade.

Such frenetic activities by private players in a secretive industry would have been inconceivable a few years ago when the landscape was dominated by public sector behemoths like Bharat Earth Movers, Bharat Electronics, Electronics Corporation of India, Hindustan Aeronautics and Mazagon Dock.

But the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party, which assumed power last May, promised in its election manifesto to beef up the country's defense industrial base and has shown signs of being receptive to the private sector. It has also allocated 12% more of its budget to the military compared with the interim budget tabled by the previous government in February 2014.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi generated a lot of excitement by announcing on Apr. 10 that India would buy 36 fighter jets from France's Dassault Aviation, but his government had earlier shortlisted Larsen & Toubro and Pipavav Defence for a $10 billion contract to build six submarines -- thought to be a far bigger order.

According to a 2013 McKinsey study, "Bright Future for India's Defense Industry?," there is huge potential in India's military manufacturing sector in the long term. Growth in domestic demand should continue to be robust, the government has a clear vision for an indigenous defense industry and the country is an attractive manufacturing base for defense companies worldwide due to shrinking budgets globally. There is tremendous export potential in engineering services and component sourcing as well, states the report.

Until now, the Indian defense sector looked weak due to lack of competition, said professor Seeram Chaulia, dean of the Jindal School of International Affairs. "Lack of competition in the field had created an undesirable monopoly for the public sector undertakings who were selling only to the armed forces. Their complacency led to cost and time overruns and low quality products. Worse, the [public sector companies] were hand-in-glove with foreign sellers who were pushing billions of dollars worth of merchandise upon us," he said.

This could all change with more private players in the field and the government pushing for a larger indigenous defense sector, he added.

Transparency

Another desirable fallout of this development, add experts, is that the transparency of participants -- most of which are publicly listed -- could help end the endemic corruption in defense procurement processes. Suppliers are known to pay kickbacks to corrupt officials, they say, and that has slowed the modernization of India's armed forces, which often still relies on archaic Soviet-era equipment.

Though the industry started to change and modernize under the previous Congress-led government, the bulk of the country's military equipment is still imported.

India is the world's largest importer of defense equipment, spending $40 billion annually on military purchases. An IHS Jane's report notes that Asia's third-largest economy is poised to become the fourth-largest military spender in the world by 2020, surpassed only by the U.S., Russia and China.

India's dependence on imports will be whittled down by Modi's "Make in India" campaign. Eventually, Modi hopes that India will also become an exporter of defense equipment.

The French fighter jet deal has left many wondering why India would make such a big overseas order when it is emphasising the development of an indigenous defense industry. A defense ministry official who requested anonymity said that the government may insist on having an Indian partner in the manufacturing of the fighter jets. "The deal offers us an honorable exit from the original exorbitantly-priced 126 aircraft deal [with Dassault] which would have drained the exchequer," said the official. But detractors say the decision has damaged Modi's "Make in India" campaign. Bharat Karnad, a professor at the Centre for Policy Research in New Delhi, told Reuters the Rafale deal was an "unmitigated disaster" that would not solve the needs of the air force, offers India nothing in the way of technology transfer and diverts funding from building an Indian-made fighter jet.

Prashant Mogre, a defense consultant, said a bigger domestic industry for military machinery could help foreign exchange reserves and bolster the technological capacity for civil manufacturing.

The industry already employs thousands of people, according to Modi when he spoke at the opening of Aero India 2015 in February. "This is despite the fact that nearly 60% of our defense equipment continues to be imported. And, we are spending tens of billions of dollars on acquisitions from abroad. There are studies that show that even a 20-25% reduction in imports could directly create an additional 100,000 to 120,000 highly skilled jobs in India," he said.

To facilitate foreign and private participation, the Modi administration last year said it would allow foreign investors to own up to 49% of the equity in Indian defense companies. Other regulatory changes include removal of restrictions on the issuance of annual industrial licences, and those on the sale of controlled products by publicly owned companies to private ones, as well as the decision for the military to order $250 billion of equipment.

This may come as a breath of fresh air for disenchanted foreign suppliers who often express frustration while doing business with the public sector in India. Last month, Textron, an American industrial conglomerate planning to bid for contracts to make two kinds of military helicopter in India, admitted that it would only partner with a private company.

To build a cohesive defense infrastructure, Modi urgently needs to focus on the research sector, which has stifled innovation and the infusion of fresh ideas, say analysts. The country's premier research organization -- the Defense Research and Development Organization -- and state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics are often criticized for delays and cost overruns in military programs. The Comptroller and Auditor General last December chided Bharat Earth Movers over its failure to make India's own version of the missile-carrying Tatra trucks, a target that should have been achieved a quarter of a century year ago.

A recent report by the Confederation of Indian Industry and Boston Consulting Group states that if India is to achieve its target of lifting its manufacturing sector to account for 25% of gross domestic product, the defense sector has to take the lead.

"The continuing dysfunctional nature of our defense research and development setup, our public sector defense industry and our purchase procedures require a revolutionary overhaul," said defense analyst and columnist Manoj Joshi.

"The entry of private players is just the beginning. We require a clear policy and a strong focus on implementation to build a world-class defense industry ecosystem that could cater to both the local and export demand," he said.

Sagar G
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Re: Chronicle of DRDO/PSU missed targets & extended timeline

Postby Sagar G » 25 Apr 2015 16:22

durairaaj wrote:^^ this is the problem with all of the PSU tenders. Their tenders are all filled with 'catch-22' clauses.


Why there are "catch 22" clauses I have already explained, your refusal to acknowledge the same doesn't make them invalid.

durairaaj wrote:This is the fundamental difference between vendor development in private and govt. units. Private sector people work with small businesses and entrepreneurs, they take risks and aid them in growth during the development.


And that's why we have a fledging pvt. industry R&D scene in the country errrrrr or something like that we dream of :lol:

durairaaj wrote:Govt. tenders ask for badge of honors and in addition Govt. people ask for commissions and kickbacks. As an entrepreneur, it's not worth to deal with Govt. sectors and would rather look for "meat thrown from abroad".


Odd that the market actually wants to work with the same govt. bodies rather than what you are painting.

durairaaj wrote:To Sagar G: Answering your question abt thermodynamics will derail the thread. But the links posted by Nrao will sufficiently answer your questions. Also, try to look for +ve & -ve entropy, energy density, cracking and polymerisation. "All that's liquid and burns is not diesel." About scientists: I have worked (research) in a CSIR lab, NIT, IIT, Indian private company, US university, US national lab and US private company for atleast 1 year in each and 14 years in total. I have seen them first hand and know their work ethic and approach to solving a scientific problem. Naming people in public forums will be harassment and let's leave it at this. Just my point is attention grabbers are not people working to solve real problems.


Nice CV and yes obviously everything that burns isn't diesel !!! You can answer the Thermodynamic pov about this in the R&D thread I failed to find anything about the same in the posted links.

What do you mean by attention grabbing ??? If anyone was attention grabbing it was the minister not any scientist, I didn't see any scientist's name in the entire article related to the claims being made. I also don't understand why naming "real scientists" in public forums == harassment ??? In fact it would lead to recognition and possible funding for doing "real science".


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