Indian Navy News & Discussion - 22 April 2015

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Sep 2016 04:47

Hitesh wrote:So the destroyer has no bulbous bow underneath like US destroyer Arleigh Burke class ships?

Does seem to have, may not be as big as the one in Arleigh.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 18 Sep 2016 08:26

Looks like the speed of ship construction has improved a lot. INS Visakhapatnam construction began in Jan 13 and was launched in April 15, should be commissioned by 17. 5 years per ship is a good speed IMHO.

maz · Post by **maz** » 19 Sep 2016 00:56

The IN is engaging in wishful thinking when it talks of a 212 ship navy by 2027. Maybe 2047 is a more likely date for getting those numbers given the large numbers of ships that will have to be decommissioned by 2027. At best, it might get to 150-160 ships by 2027.

Maybe the IN top brass should get down to the business of ensuring ships are built on time, shipyard capabilities are properly vetted before awarding orders, speeding up decisions on several long delayed projects, ensuring industry can deliver shipbuilding material and equipment on time, better project management at all phases of ship construction, and lastly to ensure that extant vessels are properly maintained and safely operated by their crew/maintainers.

Do not believe the 2018 completion date for the IAC-1. CAG says CSL thinks it could be 2023 while others think 2021 is a more likely completion or entry into service date. Experience tells us that seeing is believing.

On a separate note, the decision to not proceed with +3 Scorpenes on option is only going to hurt the IN as it will remain short of submarines. More importantly, it does not reverse the effects of the leak whatsoever. Here was a golden opportunity to continue the sub line and actually absorb technology. It would have been a relatively simple matter to insert new tech into these hulls and even modify the hulls to alter signatures, etc. But it seems that history has a way of repeating itself - as in a replay of the HDW.

Instead, more time and money will be wasted/spent on a yet another imported design under P-75I when by all counts, the P-75I should be a locally designed boat. Reverse engineering and then building upon that knowhow is the only way forward since no submarine builder will really part with sensitive technology.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Sep 2016 10:44

The Scorpenes are no longer cutting edge tech and are now tainted by the leaks of the design..They're also 4-5 yrs late in entering In service and are hideously expensive. There's a new Kalina class Russian AIP boat arriving before 2020,extra N-sub options too and the German U-216 design is also available to us. It would be good to acquire the latest German U-boat tech to also replace in due course our 1980's U-209s,preserving the experience obtained on them by our submariners.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Sep 2016 10:50

Build a museum of ships. Who cares about fighting capacity of the fleet.

6 French.
6 German
6 Russian.

All incompatible with each other, and the country pay's through the nose.

Maz is absolutely correct in his post.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2016 18:41

That's why speed up the planned construction of 6 SSNs and increase its number moving forward with upgrades.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 19 Sep 2016 23:07

INS Chennai commissioning next month:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 610_1.html

INS Chennai, the third and last destroyer of Project 15A, will be commissioned next month.

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 19 Sep 2016 23:24

Finally. But as the headline says, still very slow. The P-17a steel cutting has not even started and P-28a may only be on papers right now. Instead of waiting for the latest design and waiting 10 yrs to get 3 ships IN needs to standardize and order at least 6 in one go.

One poonch to people in the know. Heard a long while ago that the IN patrol ships (sukanya etc) could be converted to light frigate role if required. But what SSM or AA missiles can they carry? Don't see much space other than like Delhi on the fore deck. IN is supposed to have Gabriel-III but can't find any reference from Indian sources.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Sep 2016 23:39

Where is INS Subhadra?

INS Arihant still in trials?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Sep 2016 00:59

The workers who build our ships, P15B launch (c) Aroor

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Sep 2016 01:42

Karthik S wrote:INS Chennai commissioning next month:

http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 610_1.html

INS Chennai, the third and last destroyer of Project 15A, will be commissioned next month.

Kartik S ji I remember a beautiful scenario written by Comrade Shankarosky where INS Chennai kills porki agosta submarine using Brahmos, read it if you like!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 20 Sep 2016 01:58

Manish_Sharma wrote:Kartik S ji I remember a beautiful scenario written by Comrade Shankarosky where INS Chennai kills porki agosta submarine using Brahmos, read it if you like!

Is this the one you are referring to?

http://defence.pk/threads/how-ins-chenn ... ub.214970/

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 20 Sep 2016 01:59

How does one kill a sub using Brahmos??

maz · Post by **maz** » 20 Sep 2016 02:38

One can also argue that new tech from TKMS will certainly be beneficial. Still, there should be concerted effort to actually absorb tech instead of merely assembling platforms and sourcing "indigenous" items of dubious provenance. Think sticker transfer technology here.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Sep 2016 02:50

Karthik S wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:Kartik S ji I remember a beautiful scenario written by Comrade Shankarosky where INS Chennai kills porki agosta submarine using Brahmos, read it if you like!
Is this the one you are referring to?

Yes but that's haraam link with virus, so please delete it :

Hrrrrrmmmpphhh found it, finally :
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/view ... 49#p659849
Acually all the XIII scenarios should be read, if you have missed any

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 20 Sep 2016 02:52

^ While looking for above, found a gem by Shri rahulm on difference between Shishumar and russian Sindhu class subs :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5057&p=768767#p770230

Shankar, not taking the bait. These chaps are pros and they don't have loose lips.

Kersi and I have connected and are likely meeting sometime soon in Mumbai or Pune. Maybe, you can join us.

The Shalki and Sindhugosh were berthed behind each other and I visited them in the order below. Both boats were on operational duty, armed and did not have show quality finish which was exactly what I wanted.

Shishumar's

The HDW's are spacious, with clean layouts and are highly regarded by the crew for comfort. Assuming average height, you can walk the entire length of the sub without ducking. Saw the crew escape hull. Quite an interesting apparatus including the modus operandi to use it.

The torpedo loading mechanism is very efficient and the sailors love the clean & efficient design. Its a humbling experience to touch a live torpedo ready for action.

The sub seems smaller inside and I was suprised at how quickly I finished walking from bow to stern. This is because most of the equipment is not visible and stacked away out of sight..

Kilo's

The Kilo's look crammed and one has to duck quite a bit (as in WWII subs) to move between bulk heads. The AC on the Sindhugosh was turned off on the day for maintenance and I came out dripping with sweat. The anechoic tiles have a nice feel.

The trip from bow to stern involved moving through bulkheads and was not comfortable for me. It was also a humbling experience to touch and feel not only the live torpedo's but also the missiles. Here is a Q, is there anything in open source on tube - missile firing combination's?

On both subs I had a small backpack and it was difficult to move.

The Shishumars look and feel more advanced than the Kilo's but I would say its not a good idea to judge by looks alone.

Mumbai

It was a pleasure to revisit after 9 odd years and she was gleaming inside and out with show quality finish. Some armour ranges on BR are incorrect and best to leave it that way.

I was hoping to meet some of her commissioning crew but as I expected, none remain on the ship.

She does not have the Barak as we all know and there was quite a bit of discussion on the Barak trials. I may post on the trials a bit later after I have researched the quantum of information available in open source.

Was lucky to tour the entire ship. The level of computerisation is higher than probably most think and the IN have some serious inhouse SDLC capability. In summary, the IN is aware of and taken care to mitigate the risks of any trojans in commercial software including operating systems.

from BR INS Mumbai, is more advanced than the other two vessels

is true

Both her hangers were empty as both chopper were on shore.

After visiting 3 ships, my host asked if there were any more I wished to visit. S/he had been generous with time for the better part of half a day and although I was aching to visit a berthed Leander I politely declined in favour of another visit.

Since after the Kilo visit we were sweating, we headed off to the Gateway for some refreshing "ganna ras". Without ice off course.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 20 Sep 2016 03:12

Thanks Manish ji.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Sep 2016 08:37

5 years is too long. Need to cut it down to 2 years. US can churn out Arleigh Burke class ships every two years.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 20 Sep 2016 09:01

Hitesh wrote:5 years is too long. Need to cut it down to 2 years. US can churn out Arleigh Burke class ships every two years.

Where did you get that information? Wiki shows the it takes 2 years from launch to commissioning itself, add to that the time it takes to construct the hull before launching.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Sep 2016 10:13

the fastest i have read from keel laying to commissioning seems to be around 4-5 yrs for high volume standardized lines like Burke class for which there are no unknowns and long lead items, shipyard crews are all in order.

where India lags is in the "fitting out" stage - the period after empty hull is floated out and interior work done - miles and miles of pipes and wires, equipment from engine room upward , weapons and sensors . our mix and match of different country systems, late changes by user, delays in new systems, lack of large order pipeline (still build things in 3s) and general shipyard level....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Sep 2016 10:51

Sandeep Unnithan write up on Scorpene Leak , this appears more serious then what I thought would be specially with comments from Veteran Submariners of IN , Mentions Shalki Exploit during Kargil

Sting of the Scorpene

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/scor ... 54033.html

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 20 Sep 2016 21:40

Karthik S wrote:
Hitesh wrote:5 years is too long. Need to cut it down to 2 years. US can churn out Arleigh Burke class ships every two years.
Where did you get that information? Wiki shows the it takes 2 years from launch to commissioning itself, add to that the time it takes to construct the hull before launching.

Check this link out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Delbert_D._Black

Check the timeline of when the keel was laid down and when it is expected to be commissioned. For the Arleigh Burke class destroyer USS Delbert D Black, the keel was laid down on June 1 2016 and it is expected to be commissioned in 2018, hence the 2 years production remark.

Check another ship at here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_John_Finn. The keel was laid down on 5 November 2013 and commissioned on May 2, 2015

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 20 Sep 2016 21:49

USS John Finn is being fitted out, it's not commissioned yet.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Sep 2016 22:13

Karthik S wrote:USS John Finn is being fitted out, it's not commissioned yet.

How do you know? Would appreciate any news bits about that.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 22 Sep 2016 11:47

Hitesh wrote:
Karthik S wrote:USS John Finn is being fitted out, it's not commissioned yet.
How do you know? Would appreciate any news bits about that.

Status as per the Wiki link you had included?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Sep 2016 18:27

Alert on in Uran Bombay after students spotted 4/5 uniformed men with packs.Being takem seriously by IN.14 teams searching for suspected intruders.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Sep 2016 03:26

Anyone heard of this?

https://sputniknews.com/asia/20160921/1 ... oject.html

India intends to construct a seabed-based surveillance sensor array. This would monitor all submarine or naval ships patrolling the South China Sea and Indian Ocean Region.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 23 Sep 2016 06:30

Karthik S wrote:Anyone heard of this?

https://sputniknews.com/asia/20160921/1 ... oject.html

India intends to construct a seabed-based surveillance sensor array. This would monitor all submarine or naval ships patrolling the South China Sea and Indian Ocean Region.

If it is true it is about time. The last time PLAN submarines played a unwelcome visit we had to bank on USN and few other countries to monitor their passage. Just like GPS we need an entire array of sensors which will tell us where these submarines are. And after that another that a similar fleet of satellites to monitor where aircraft are in the infra red and visible light spectrum.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 Sep 2016 12:00

FINALLY!!!!!! Yes!! It better be true, we cannot deploy or buy so many ASW assets. Cheapest way forward esp on Life Cycle Costs!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 23 Sep 2016 17:59

Karthik S wrote:Anyone heard of this?

https://sputniknews.com/asia/20160921/1 ... oject.html

India intends to construct a seabed-based surveillance sensor array. This would monitor all submarine or naval ships patrolling the South China Sea and Indian Ocean Region.

All that is being said is that A&N islands are likely to be connected by undersea communication cables. Nothing more. I can't understand how they can interpret submarine surveillance from that.

GoI is working hard to improve the infrastructure in A&N. Solar and wind energy initiatives are being pushed to substitute 100% diesel power generation. Logical to think Telecom infrastructure would be next on the agenda.

Nuggets from Lt Governor's speech

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 23 Sep 2016 22:21

Aditya_V wrote:
Hitesh wrote:
How do you know? Would appreciate any news bits about that.
Status as per the Wiki link you had included?

No it didn't say that. All it said that it was christened on May 2, 2015. No comment regarding fitting out the ship.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 24 Sep 2016 11:39

Hitesh, read the right side of the Wiki link you posted- John Finn, it clearly states- STATUS-FITTING OUT

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 24 Sep 2016 15:03

Folks, "Indian naval" discussion, perhaps?

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 24 Sep 2016 15:25

Aditya_V wrote:Hitesh, read the right side of the Wiki link you posted- John Finn, it clearly states- STATUS-FITTING OUT

OK saw that. here's another bit of info:http://www.navycommissionings.org/

It says that USS John Finn will be commission this year.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 26 Sep 2016 00:47

Pratyush wrote:Build a museum of ships. Who cares about fighting capacity of the fleet.

6 French.
6 German
6 Russian.

All incompatible with each other, and the country pay's through the nose.

Maz is absolutely correct in his post.

+1

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Sep 2016 13:36

What is truly "Indian"? For decades we've been building and outfitting our warships firstly of British origin,with Dutch radars,Swedish ASW mortars,Italian TTs,then adding Russian SSMs to later derivatives,Russian radars also,with Indian sonars as the main contribution,apart from the hull.Italian combat systems.We now have Israeli SAMs,BMos SSMs,Italian and Russian main guns,etc. to give us a unique capability .Our "masala" warships give us v.difficult to counter capabilities as our Bisons with so-called "grey market" components stunned the USAF during the first air exercises.

Secondly,as far as subs go,we've got the best thus far of conventional eqpt. from Russia,France and Germany.It's going to be a nightmare for Pak and China to determine which sub is Indian in the IOR and Indo-China Sea,as SoKo,Malaysia and others also use Scorpenes and U-boats. What we have to do is to -at least with the western subs,use similar torpedoes and weaponry .However,the IN has ordered Harpoons,Exocets,apart from the array of Russian missiles that we possess including BMos.Our traditional enemies must be sh*tting crabs!

kit · Post by **kit** » 26 Sep 2016 15:50

submarines have particular set of prints acoustic and thermal just like human finger prints.. each ship with name is catlogued to data bases

kapilrdave · Post by **kapilrdave** » 27 Sep 2016 20:49

Heard from someone working at Pipavav shipyard that they are under unbearable pressure from MoD to complete the repairing stuff of certain warships ASAP.

Also, until now they were blacklisted from bidding to build warships from scratch due to bad performance in patrol vessel deliveries. However due to "stupendous" performance recently, their candidature has been reviewed.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2016 13:37

Sounds ominous.It looks like we anticipate some pre-emptive mischief from Pak.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2016 18:20

Recent report of engine problems with the 29Ks (some reports said runway ingestion at DAB),whatever the reason should augur better operational availability of the 29Ks with this delivery.With approx 45+ aircraft on order/delivered,does it it makes approx two sets of extra engines available per aircraft ,or counting the two on each bird,one extra set?

https://in.rbth.com/news/2016/09/28/rus ... ets_633897

Russia supplies Indian Navy with over 100 engines for MiG-29 fighter jets
28 September 2016 SPUTNIK
The RD-33MK turbojet engine is a modernized modification of the basic RD-33 engine.

Russia's United Engine Corporation has delivered over 100 turbojet engines for the Mikoyan MiG-29 (NATO reporting name Fulcrum) fighter aircraft used by the Indian Navy, the UEC said in a press release issued on Tuesday.

The RD-33MK turbojet engine is a modernized modification of the basic RD-33 engine installed on all versions of famous MiG-29 fighter jet. The engine has high thrust-to-weight ratio, low specific fuel consumption and is equipped with modern digital electronic management and control system.

"Chernyshev Moscow Machine-Building Enterprise [part of UEC] has manufactured and delivered over 100 RD-33MK turbojet engines for the Indian Navy. The deliveries were carried out within the earlier agreed contract between the Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG and the Indian Defense Ministry," the press release said.

UEC is a subsidiary company of the United Industrial Corporation, producing various engines including those for military and civil aviation.