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MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 14 Mar 2017 05:28

For a army that has 4,000+ MBTs, it can't even find a place for 118 homegrown Arjun MBT Mk.2 that is superior to the T-series.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 14 Mar 2017 05:35

srai: I would love to read what the spin masters have to say about this Arjun saga. This is comically tragic. When the Armata specs came out, I mentioned that the weight is awfully close to the FMBT design weight. I just happened to check wiki now and see what it says.

I just have one question, will the Armata have to go through the same length and set of trials that the Arjun did? Oh wait, it is phoren, so it is already proven :mrgreen:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_(tank)

One of the concepts of FMBT disclosed by Dr. Avinash Chander (SA-to-RM) is to explore the possibility of a 2-man crew, sub-50 ton tank with higher armour protection than Arjun Mk2. He said that DRDO is currently doing feasibility study of utilising the fighter aircraft's digital cockpit & weapons management systems. It can be assumed that this planned FMBT would have a fully automatic turret, larger ammunition storage, V-hull and smaller dimensions. Driver and Commander role would be retained for the 2 crews planned, with duplicated controls, with the Gunner/Loader roles completely automated.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-14_Armata

Weight: More than 50 tons
...................49 tons (with Urban Warfare Package)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 14 Mar 2017 05:44

:mrgreen: ... virtues of brochuristis

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Marten » 14 Mar 2017 08:29

Perhaps Tata and L&T might be interested in partnering DRDO in producing the next gen FMBT?

It is inconceivable though that the DGMF will accept anything locally designed (we know the cycle - it takes 12-15 years for a deployable design) and by then a NGNX-FMBT will be desired. Fact is that unless the COAS publicly states no more imported designs for MBTs, this farce will continue. Fact is that the MoD will outlast every Govt. and the unholy nexus will continue in the same vein unless there is a way to set the requirement in stone and there are severe consequences to the set of officers, scientists and babus who attempt to subvert this endeavor.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Katare » 14 Mar 2017 10:27

This thread has become a hurt locker!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 14 Mar 2017 21:29

nam, you are hung up on the weight issue. Before the IA demanded those 73 improvements with the then chief of staff making them, they now say its overweight. What did they think , asking for 73 changes wont change the weight?

I think its lack of good faith in demanding those improvements. They hoped DRDO wont be able to make those changes.
Having made those changes they want the weight to go down as if that's the only one thing they were asking for.


West will drop ship Abrams and then all these very folks will berate DRDO and find sympathizers in press for a few bottles of Old Monk who will join the hue and cry.

If you keep flogging the weight issue, I don't see anything worthwhile coming from you and will warn you.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 14 Mar 2017 23:38

WOW! Just wow! I want Su-30 capabilities out of an LCA. Great going, indeed.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 14 Mar 2017 23:39

And IA will buy 2,000 of Armatas at outrageous prices (components of which will be buried in separate purchases). And only 500-750 will be battle ready at a given time - going by the track record of Russian supplied equipment.

The biggest impediment to improved Indian Homeland Security are the armed forces because of their deliberate actions in destroying an Indian MIC. Small players will not enter into the fray to backward integrate components manufacturer because of certain failure as their products are tortured through long drawn out tests while junk imports waltz in destroying the warfighting capability of the country.

In addition, the foreign controlled purchase mafia also wants to place India in a box so that it cannot attain a big power status. As a result, India does not get big boy stuff or numbers. So the forces by destroying the MIC are enabling India's enemies. This can only happen in India.

The history of Indian procurement says it all. An underpowered but local Marut was replaced with an underpowered Jaguar. The Vijayanta should have been continuously upgraded but the T-72 was bought in the 1000s. The Kamov 226T (when HAL's LUH is available) is a complete waste of money but to help politicians win elections and keep foreign control of the Indian procurement establishment, it will be bought in the 100s. The scorpene purchase is a similar story. After the HDW subs, the line should have continued to develop local skilled manpower. Now the IN has gone in for the Scorpene with the French destroying its value by leaking all its secrets to the world. If local MIC could produce the Arihant, shouldn't it have been roped in with a foreign partner to develop a local DE sub line. And coming to the LCA - its future remains uncertain. In an almost predictable turn of events, IAF will do a Marut on it - buy a few, fly them over Rajpath on Jan 26 and then let them die out. After all it is cheap and so it can be discarded earlier than the Mig-21s that turned into flying coffins because the AF stretched their use beyond the availability of OEM spares. Amazing isn't it, Mera Bharat Mahaan!

Today, Modi ji can beat his chest and declare that India has tech and proven expertise in building all systems required by the armed forces except for tank and aircraft engines. Yet, India is the largest importer of foreign junk 50% of which is not ready for battle at a given time. There are stories of shortages of everything during war time and emergency purchases that line the coffers of the mafia and increase their hold over Indian sovereignty.

The Indian defence establishment is a mess and has no strategic vision or thinking. We are extremely fortunate to be still independent. But how long can that continue?
Last edited by ramana on 15 Mar 2017 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold. ramana

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 15 Mar 2017 01:35

Op ed piece in a leading and widely read news paper! Do it Vivek, we know enough journos and should be able to find a contact or two to help getting it to the right person.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 15 Mar 2017 01:37

Vivek: That is an amazing post. And like cybaru said, that is an op ed piece indeed! +108 to you!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ShauryaT » 15 Mar 2017 02:13

Vivek: Good points. The only areas we have made sufficient progress are areas where there was no choice. Namely, Missiles and Nuclear. Sometimes I wish we should do a test, just to get sanctioned so that we learn the hard way through. The military sanctions on China were a boon in disguise, I think the same will be the case for Russia.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 15 Mar 2017 03:06

Vivek K Jai Ho!

This is purely about making a case for Armata. And the timing is MoD resignation. wah! taj chai + parle-g biskoti boliye!~

It is time to check the mates! put a steep restriction how many we can import (not more than 30% of any class/design or nature of imported weapon systems). rest is innovated under our labs. bring it on!

And, reducing by 3tons on Arjun, what is the gain for IA? basically, this is the old $hit thrown again for jetlee consumption.
IA, sorry chaps.. start using Arjuns right in the front lines - call it a firang name! who cares

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 15 Mar 2017 04:52

Well said Vivek K!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 15 Mar 2017 04:57

Vivek, Expand it and will get it published via contacts.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Shankk » 15 Mar 2017 06:23

Rakesh wrote:I just have one question, will the Armata have to go through the same length and set of trials that the Arjun did? Oh wait, it is phoren, so it is already proven :mrgreen:


There is nothing wrong in expecting the best out there from the whole wide world. Why would you want to ignore the best machines money can buy and give something not so good to our forces? I fully support the army in their endeavors to get the best tools. I would go one step further and also import the unit chiefs from foreign countries starting with Deputy Chief for Policy & Systems and General Mechanised Forces. It should further be extended to more high level officials right up to army chief. After all these countries don't just make machines, they make babies too that are equally good i.e. the best that army asks for. Not much recruitment tests required and they will bring in those coveted foreign arms much faster than desi chiefs.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Katare » 15 Mar 2017 06:34

That's how i feel too......lets import generals too that are battle tested and ready for war and come with after sale support.
Last edited by Katare on 15 Mar 2017 06:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Shankk » 15 Mar 2017 06:35

If the army procurement chiefs and arms brokers play so dirty, why not DRDO, HAL, NAL and other desi units give them back in same token? They have enough manpower and resources to identify these people, particularly arms brokers, and expose their details without coming out in open. Just get someone to publish their name, address and family details. Let people take care of them.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Katare » 15 Mar 2017 06:40

They are not playing dirty, they just can not see it. Just like a communist can't see the inadequacy of the system he follows, our armed forces are fully convince and in good faith that they have got it right. India can not be protected without a 45ton tank no ifs or butts.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 15 Mar 2017 08:42

ramana wrote:Vivek, Expand it and will get it published via contacts.

I will Ramana and put some hard facts into it.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby rohitvats » 15 Mar 2017 10:03

It is one thing to castigate the Army for the Arjun fiasco and completely different to take unrelated examples to show apathy of Services towards indigenous products.

Both Marut and Vijayanta tank are case in point.

It is an urban legend which has got perpetuated that Marut was killed as a program by IAF. There are multiple factors which led to its demise and IAF's disinterest is the least of those factors. It is good to understand what factors led to demise of Marut but at least do that with some research. And not chest beating. Jaguar being 'under-powered' is same as Marut being 'under-powered'? Did Marut do the role it was supposed to do and does Jaguar does the role it is supposed to do?

When people say Jaguar is under-powered, what is the context? It does its job perfectly well. It lifts the payload it is supposed to lift to achieve its objective and quite excels at its job. Its evolution over the years and IAF's faith in the system to deliver is testament to the robustness of the platform.

Coming to Vijayanta - only those who've no bloody clue about this tank will call it an indigenous tank. It was a licensed copy of a BRITISH tank. And apart from lack of power, it suffered from horrible maintenance issues with transmission being the main culprit. There was a time when a Vijayanta tank regiment had active+reserve holding of 75 tanks because of the maintenance problem. Tank availability in a Vijayanta Regiment would not cross 60% on optimistic side. The only good thing on that tank was the British rifled gun - the reason Arjun has a rifled gun.

Before we devolve in a lynch mob mentality, like a quite a few times earlier, it is better to make your points using logic then rhetoric.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 15 Mar 2017 11:02

The points Vivek raises are valid. Most development happens in an iterative fashion. It takes time effort and you cannot mix and max brochures to arrive at your requirements list.

Ideally the Army provides USE cases and both DRDO and army sit down together and see what features fit for their desired operational weight. They may have to leave somethings on the table till they become weightless enough to fit into the profile they need. I could be wrong, but after following and hearing about our process, IMO it's not how problems are solved and solutions created. I would think that they would worry about servicing, parts, extendability as prime movers not a checklist of what others have. The problem here is that its a perfect example of fetch me a rock game.

http://www.jrothman.com/pragmaticmanager/2002/01/volume-5-number-2-project-toolbox-recognizing-the-bring-me-a-rock-schedule-game/

"Bring-me-a-rock doesn’t just occur with schedules. It also occurs with other project deliverables: requirements, specs, hiring plans, test plans, you name it. Here’s the general case of Bring-me-a-rock:
“Bring me a rock.”
“OK, here’s a rock.”
“No, not that rock. A different rock.”
“OK, here’s another rock.”
“No, not that one either…”
If you take the bait and start playing Bring-me-a-rock, you’ll rework the schedule or attempt to negotiate with your management until you capitulate and agree to some unreasonable date, just to stop discussing the problem or to keep your job. You might believe that once you’re back with the project team, you have a chance of creating a reasonable project, now that you’ve pacified your management.
The problem with Bring-me-a-rock is that you can’t create a reasonable project schedule, unless you rework the project requirements, and possibly change the project staff. If you succumbed to Bring-me-a-rock, now you’re stuck. Bring-me-a-rock is different from being told the end date, because if you know the end date, you can choose which requirements to implement, who you have on the project, how to organize the project, and how good the product has to be. With Bring-me-a-rock, your management will take the commitments you made for the number of people, requirements, defects, and then hold you to the new date. If you play Bring-me-a-rock, you’re stuck in a no-win position and a project headed for disaster. Bring-me-a-rock assumes that all the project variables: features, schedule, staff, how you organize the project, what you’re willing to invest in the project, and defects are independent. However, the project variables are interdependent—the choices you make for one project variable affect the other project variables."

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jayasimha » 15 Mar 2017 11:39

This (Old) article might give some insight on the subject

https://indianarmy.nic.in/WriteReadData ... AJan15.pdf

changing security paradigm GLOBAL TRENDS
By

LT GEN DALIP BHARDWAJ PVSM, VSM (RETD)
Director General of the Mechanised Forces,
Indian Army

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 06 Apr 2017 14:10


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 05 May 2017 15:01

Cross post of Thakur_B from the Armoured Vehicles thread

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6844&start=2360#p2151875

Image

Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 05 May 2017 17:46

Thanks for the X-post Manish. Here's some Mk1 goodness from Defexpo 16.

Image

Image

Image

From Defense expo 2016

Source : http://www.hesja.pl/

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 05 May 2017 18:36

Image
Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 06 May 2017 04:54

Gorgeous

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby sum » 06 May 2017 06:35

Sad to see such nice pics and then the inevitable story in few days abt xyz defects founds and IA anyways looking for new concept and not interested in current one

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 06 May 2017 06:36

Looks magnificent, but, what a pity that the endless cycle continues . . .

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 06 May 2017 08:29

Just guessing - please correct me if wrong.

The earlier Arjun pics posted by Manishp show black soil and trees (Peepul?) - could be Maharashtra
The latter pis in an urban setting are they from Chennai, Defexpo was Goa this year no?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby aditp » 06 May 2017 12:29

I've always noted, that the Arjun's main gun is always pointed upwards, even when it is on manoeuvers, while the western tanks always move with the gun horizontal (somehow that looks more TFTA). Can anyone tell why this orientation of the Arjun's gun? is this a hangover from the T-72 where the gun would break the Driver's neck in forward position?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 May 2017 02:01

Third most Important Test for Arjun
FWIW, the only takeaway from this news is: A source in in Indian MoD told that India was LIKELY to use Arjun tank this year. If that happens, it will be a big thing. If it shines in flying color there, then there will be only two tests left for Arjun to clear
1. to fire shot to moon
2. convince the DGMF about its capabilities and get that translated in orders (beyond token ones so far)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 20 May 2017 02:37

The great news is that India is building bridges that will withstand the weight of the Arjun.
The problem is that Pakistan is not improving the quality of its bridges...

Hopefully with CPEC they'll do that...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kashi » 20 May 2017 07:01

Gagan wrote:The problem is that Pakistan is not improving the quality of its bridges...


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 20 May 2017 07:11

aditp wrote:I've always noted, that the Arjun's main gun is always pointed upwards, even when it is on manoeuvers, while the western tanks always move with the gun horizontal (somehow that looks more TFTA). Can anyone tell why this orientation of the Arjun's gun? is this a hangover from the T-72 where the gun would break the Driver's neck in forward position?

Please link some photos/videos of the TFTA stuff. I cannot recall seeing anything that made me feel anything of the sort. Also please provide a source of information about this T-72 gun breaking necks.

With respect BRF serves to propagate good stuff or bullshit and we need to make sure which is which.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 20 May 2017 08:05

Kashi wrote:
Gagan wrote:The problem is that Pakistan is not improving the quality of its bridges...


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Obviously they don't want to face the Arjuns in combat. They also prefer Tin Cans as their adversary :P

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 20 May 2017 08:25

ArjunPandit wrote:Third most Important Test for Arjun
FWIW, the only takeaway from this news is: A source in in Indian MoD told that India was LIKELY to use Arjun tank this year. If that happens, it will be a big thing. If it shines in flying color there, then there will be only two tests left for Arjun to clear
1. to fire shot to moon
2. convince the DGMF about its capabilities and get that translated in orders (beyond token ones so far)


The tank is not getting any additional orders. Regardless of what we want.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby darshan » 20 May 2017 08:40

Not sure why GoI can't use Arjun, while reducing T series tank orders, to send message about NSG membership.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 20 May 2017 11:42

Amazing defensive strategy of the devilish Pakis! Build flimsy bridges to topple Indian marauding tanks.Who would've thought of such an innovative asymmetric warfare device?!

I don't think any more T-series will be ordered.The numbers in the pipeline are huge and CVRDE/Avadi are behind schedule in manufacturing them apart from other T-72 upgrades,etc.,etc. Numbers wise,the mainstay will still be the T-72UG upto around 2025.

Secondly,why punish Russia for China's intolerance? We have no b*lls at all to give the PRC the bayonet up the nether end? China hands out stapled visas,we welcome them with open arms,China has a $50B trade surplus with us but we continue to buy their fireworks,killing our local industry,handicrafts,etc.,etc. The eunuchs sitting in the corridors of power in Delhi are the ones who need to be sorted out not Russia! We have no problem with Russian support for the NSG,UNSC seat,etc. It is the Chinese who are scuppering our membership of both. Past time to f*ck China big time diplomatically and economically,if we're wary of using the bayonet. Send a high-level dipl/political team to Taipei ,give the Chinese only stapled visas,

If Modi tells Puutin "no more reactors unless you twist China's arm on the NSG issue",what will he do if Putin replies,"that's your job ,not mine!" Even if he offers to mediate,what will Putin do if the rabid scum in the PRC tell him to "eff off!" ?

Ultimately India has to deal with China ALONE.No one is going to come to our aid let alone Uncle Sam.He's ditched all his friends historically,including Pak! Relying on him to curtail China is expecting monsoon rain in the Sahara or Pak to stop its proxy war in Kashmir! China respects only steel. When we turn around and pay it back in the same coin,only then will it relent. Indira Gandhi would never have descended to such a ridiculous level of diplomacy with either the US or Russia.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 21 May 2017 08:23

shiv wrote:
aditp wrote:I've always noted, that the Arjun's main gun is always pointed upwards, even when it is on manoeuvers, while the western tanks always move with the gun horizontal (somehow that looks more TFTA). Can anyone tell why this orientation of the Arjun's gun? is this a hangover from the T-72 where the gun would break the Driver's neck in forward position?

Please link some photos/videos of the TFTA stuff. I cannot recall seeing anything that made me feel anything of the sort. Also please provide a source of information about this T-72 gun breaking necks.

With respect BRF serves to propagate good stuff or bullshit and we need to make sure which is which.



Good God how did I miss this little Gem about breaking necks ...


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