MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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RKumar
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 08 Jul 2018 21:36

^ sir you are stuck in the past, pls try to move ahead. T-72s will not stand a chance against modern MBTs. We need to move ahead, there is no other way than ordering Arjun-2 orders - it can be delayed but can’t be killed. I didn’t know what the hell is going on between IA, MoD and GoI, I would cancel T-90 production or T-72 upgrade orders. Order only Arjuns, better to have these monsters then lots of pussy cats.

Shankk
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Shankk » 08 Jul 2018 22:23

Philip wrote:Who questioned my earlier posts and their facts about the weight of Arjun, etc.? Facts arc facts which are unpalatable to some who see the issue of A- series procurement purely as a " nationalistic" necessity, not in total context of the issue.


Only unquestionable fact is that you are a Russia lover; everything else is merely a function of this fact. Nothing less nothing more. You ealier mentioned that you are a resident of India. That does not necessarily mean you are a citizen of India. You could very well be someone in Russian embassy working for interests of mother Russia. If you are indeed an Indian citizen then all I can say is God save India. There are many of your ilk and will be "sorted" out, slowly but surely.
Last edited by Indranil on 09 Jul 2018 00:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Warning issued: Personal attack.

Neshant
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 09 Jul 2018 00:49

How long will the Arjun tank project continue without the tank being mass produced.

It's been decades and still the goal has not been met.

Either start mass producing it or shut it down.

There are other programs that could use the money that's being pissed away on a project with no prospects of production

Developing a tank cannot turn into a project spanning a third of a century.

Terrible project management.

Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 09 Jul 2018 19:22

Shank, I am v.much an Indian heart and soul and not a firangi.My folk have served with distinction in the armed forces, administration and executive too. Police chiefs in 2 states have been my close relatives. It is an accident of history- after western snubs , that India turned to a willing USSR for defence eqpt. which served us v.well in our wars against Pak, sold to us at " friendship rates" too.After the collapse of the USSR problems of spares, etc. arose because the various mil. factories were scattered in the various republics, now independent.The IL-76 is a case in point built formerly in Uzbekistan , now totally in Russia.The UKR supplied all marine GTs by Zorya.Tanks though from the monster of all tank factories anywhere on the globe, UVZ.

Thus the Indian armed forces with a rich tradition of the ethos of the British military, and fighting experience in two world wars and other colonial conflicts, skillfully melded Sov/Russian eqpt. into their various mil. doctrines.The raid on Karachi in '71 was one such example.A v.close relative played a major part in naval ops on both fronts at NHQ at the time and got a bar to his AVSM.

Until we have sufficiently progressed with desi R&D and have mastered mass production of cutting edge wrapon systems, we will have to rely on foreign partners for outright, JV and TOT deals. Thus far Russia has been the most reliable of partners and its eqpt. is both rugged and v.price competitive in comparison with western eqpt.It is sheer pragmatism if some of my proposals recommend Ru eqpt.I don't hear any howls of protest though when I say we should get German U-boats though. No neo- Nazi accusations! :mrgreen:

PS: So you are threatening to " sort me out"? Are you in favour of lynch mobs? Careful with your words chum.

jpremnath
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jpremnath » 10 Jul 2018 16:28

Philip, be that as it may, your posts always stabs deep into anyone who cares for this country. Before joining, I have been visiting BRF almost daily for close to 10 years now and even with a non military background, I could easily see through your agenda of pushing Russian wares as the panacea for anything and everything. Of course there are the odd sprinkling of buying some desi wares or German subs; which I am sorry to admit only sounded halfhearted or fake.

Now, you probably might know this already, but the USSR and Russia are two different countries. The SU were willing to help anyone who went to them as they had this enshrined in their govt policy. They funded and equipped friendly countries even when it was detrimental to their fiscal situation. Russia or the Russian govt is a totally different entity which behaves like any other nation state; and will do everything to protect itself. This means if it ever comes to it, it will sell India to China if they come with better terms. So please do not ever use Soviet Union and Russia in the same sentence and expect us to lap it up.
You have been constantly pushing the post WW 'quantity' over quality argument, conveniently forgetting how the weapons and platforms have moved generations and the cost per unit of even the Russian wares going up exponentially with it. So we end up spending more in maintenance and upkeep in the long run for weapons which are inferior. Prime exhibit being the Hangar queens MKIs and the ill equipped and work shop friendly tin cans. These are costing us time and money in just keeping them up and running.

You can be whatever you have claimed to be, but dont expect respect. There are others who might find your knowledge of Russian wares (which i must say make even sales rep of uralvagonzavod proud) useful and educational, but for the vast majority of us you are anything but a bharat rakshak. My only plead to you is to leave atleast the Arjun thread. I end my rant here.

Vips
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vips » 10 Jul 2018 17:58

Do not want to go OT but you are way too charitable by saying that Soviet Union was willing to help anybody who went to them. It did so as it wanted its own group of friends (and lackeys) in its geo-political competition with the US of A.
Remember the special relationship it had with India and the "friendship prices" it sold the military equipment to us was because India was its only major ally during the cold war.

jpremnath
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jpremnath » 10 Jul 2018 18:29

Vips wrote:Do not want to go OT but you are way too charitable by saying that Soviet Union was willing to help anybody who went to them. It did so as it wanted its own group of friends (and lackeys) in its geo-political competition with the US of A.
Remember the special relationship it had with India and the "friendship prices" it sold the military equipment to us was because India was its only major ally during the cold war.


I never said anything about their reason behind the 'policy'. It could be whatever you said it to be. But that policy did indeed equip friendly countries with weapons without the threads which others had.

Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 10 Jul 2018 23:12

I think that the incompetence displayed by some our DPSUs in delivering desi milware to the long suffering services stabs deeper.Why on earth then would a patriotic govt. like the NDA, not I call for another MRCA tender?
Please check the promises and timelines of many of our marquee programmes and the end result.Arjun is onx such example.I didn't order the T-72 or T-90, the Indian Army and GOI did! So does that make them backstabbers? Rant and rave at them not me chum, they're the ones spending the taxpayer's money.
They did so for very good teasons which your blinkered vision cannot comptehend, mores the pity!

RKumar
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RKumar » 11 Jul 2018 00:53

Philip, It adds zero value to keep repeating the your stated bias POV. Unfortunately, it matches that of a former DGMO of IA. He made a blunder and we are still paying for his wrong decision. Why he did it, we all know and That was nothing short of a treason. So yes, IA and GoI did waste tax payer money.

Please stop spamming the thread with your T- series love, better use it during whisky parties ;)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jul 2018 04:12

Philip wrote:Why on earth then would a patriotic govt. like the NDA, not I call for another MRCA tender?

Because Govts do not operate military platforms, the services do. There have been numerous attempts - some successful - at increasing the % of indigenous content/desi platforms, but largely the Govt has to follow what the services tell them when it comes to military platforms. Defence Minister Sitharaman has gone on official record stating that she encourage indigenization only to a certain point and she cannot arm twist the services to buy desi maal over phoren maal. I have the article, if you want to see it.

No one can expect Prime Minister Modi (or his predecessors) or Defence Minister Sitharaman (or her predecessors) to know about AESA radars or tank warfare or the value of carrier battle groups. That is not their job and they rely on senior military leadership to advise them on such matters.

To answer your specific question about calling for another MRCA tender, the following set of circumstances has led to the re-issuing of the tender;

- Tejas Mk1 production not ramping in large enough numbers to meet the shortfall, despite the fact that MRCA will do squat to address the shortfall.
- MoD languishing on key developmental projects - Kaveri engine, Uttam radar, etc. But MoD got money to fund MRCA contest :roll:
- No accountability at DRDO, GTRE and other organizations which leads to zero faith in them by the services.
- Adhoc planning (MRCA contest) in which the services, the babus and even the Govt are all to blame.

Fix Tejas production first and then cancel MRCA tender. All three - IAF, Babu and Govt - have to be in sync with this. but they are not and thus the reason for the mess.

kit
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby kit » 11 Jul 2018 04:55

The time that bureaucracy and the political parties get educated on geopolitics and military industrial policies, shouldn't be there some dedicated university for military sciences, geopolitics and such strategic planning .. doesn't the future of a country depend on it? OT anyway .. the space sciences has a whole university for them

Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 09:09

The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?

habal
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby habal » 11 Jul 2018 10:52

the driving force behind defence imports are *commissions* and those are in this order

* West European products earn highest commissions. So political class is involved.
* Russian imports earn lesser commissions so only serving defence procurement gentlemen involved.
* Imported components commission go to chota-mota drdo, ofb, hal procurement employees. These components go into many indegenously manf platforms, so enthusiasm among vocal and high visibility crowd is very less here.
* US govt-to-govt imports are to pre-empt any trade restrictions and sniping on domestic issues, so no enthusiasm only c***yapa.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 11 Jul 2018 10:54

Indranil wrote:The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?


If the prime minister says that India is alone and is not in a position to count the support of anyone. You will easily see India beginning developing it's own MIC.

Philip
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 11 Jul 2018 13:54

It used to be said allegedly about Mahathir Md. of Malaysia,that he would call the various parties vying for contracts,"fix" a party,but he would make sure that the contract was executed perfectly,no lessening of quality and delivery on schedule.It's why Malaysia became an ASEAN "tiger".Swift decision-making is the hallmark of a good leader and the follow up management too.Unfortunately in India,decisions are as per IST and as far as desi items are concerned,time for delivery is infinite!

There is a piece very critical of the current dispensation,as well as the former in the Deccan Chronicle which one will post in another td. It may be biased,but there are some hard home truths in it.My sadness with the NDA is that one hoped for faster decision-making and a taming of babudom in the MOD and the stick used to get the DPSUs performing as they should. One needs to examine whether they've performed better than during the UPA where AKA was only interested in wearing a spotless dhoti,not the defence of the country.

Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 22:15

Pratyush wrote:
Indranil wrote:The beaurocrats are career-strategy makers and geopoliticians? Who will train them?


If the prime minister says that India is alone and is not in a position to count the support of anyone. You will easily see India beginning developing it's own MIC.

And who advices the PM on what decisions to make. We tend to accrue credit and blame on one person.

Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 11 Jul 2018 22:20

Philip wrote:There is a piece very critical of the current dispensation,as well as the former in the Deccan Chronicle which one will post in another td. It may be biased,but there are some hard home truths in it.My sadness with the NDA is that one hoped for faster decision-making and a taming of babudom in the MOD and the stick used to get the DPSUs performing as they should. One needs to examine whether they've performed better than during the UPA where AKA was only interested in wearing a spotless dhoti,not the defence of the country.

In four years, if we expect the inertia of a country like India to change then we have the wrong expectation. I think that is the problem that Modi Sarkar will face in the 2019 elections. Many people believed that the problems will evaporate overnight with a new government.

Things have changed quite a lot. They need more time to change to where things should be. Habits and practices don't change overnight.


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