MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 22 Nov 2017 06:20

Picklu wrote:In other news, it is confirmed now. IA trial team forced Arjun to run 1000s of KM in reverse gear to cause failure of the engine and used the same to reject.

Is there a source for this? If true, the trial team that did this to the tank needs to dismissed from service.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 22 Nov 2017 06:23

Exclusive Picture of Indian Army's state-of-the-art tank FRCV
http://www.timesnownews.com/india/artic ... ive/125580

Image

The Indian Army's next main battle tank, the tank for the 2020s, till the middle of this century is the FRCV OR Future Ready Combat Vehicle. The first photographs of the tank is with TIMES NOW. This is artist's impression of the tank, as per the Indian Army's armoured corps. Currently, the Indian Army has the T-90 tank and the indigenous Arjun, a heavier tank of over 60 tonnes but the first steps towards a new tank have been taken with the Defence Ministry issuing a Request for Information last week.

The Army has decided on the specifications. The FRCV is expected to weigh 50 tonnes, "plus or minus 15 percent," top Army sources said. This is to ensure that it can be used in different parts of the country, including Punjab, where the bridges rarely allow a heavier tank. Even along the border in Pakistan, where the tanks are being built to be used if there is war with Pakistan, the bridges on the canals cannot allow heavier tanks. As a result, the only place where tanks that weigh 60 tonnes and more can be used is in the Jaisalmer sector, in the open desert. The FRCV will be designed after discussions with a foreign collaborator and tanks of four different countries are being looked at. They are:

* The Russian T-14 Armata :roll: :lol:

* The Ukranian Oplot

*The French LeClerc

* South Korean K2 Black Panther

The Army expects that it will partner one of the four countries to produce the FRCV in the next decade. All four are in the 50 tonnes vicinity. A special attempt has been made to keep the weight of the tank to around 50 tonnes and this keeps out several top-of-the-line tanks like the German Leopard and the American M1 Abrams, both of which touch 60 tonnes. The Israeli armoured vehicles are also considered too heavy. The second stage will the production of the FRCLV. This will be a variant of the FRCV and will weigh about 30 tonnes. This can be used in the Ladakh area and even in Sikkim (the Chinese have already built a formidable light tank), parts of Gujarat like Bhuj, the Andamans and outside the country, if necessary.

The Army's current weight requirement for tanks puts the indigenous Arjun at a disadvantage. Two regiments of 125 tanks are already with the Indian Army and two more asked for, provided the spares situation is better. Again, the Arjun is heavy, at 62 tonnes and the Arjun II could be 68 tonnes. The spares problem arises from the fact that the tank is only one-third indigenous. The engine, for example, is German and the gearbox, French. The high cost -- about Rs 44 crores -- is also a problem. As a result, the Arjun's use will be limited to the open Rajasthan desert.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 22 Nov 2017 06:26

- Does the Army honestly believe the FRCV will be cheaper than the Arjun?

- How does the Army rationalize the above four tanks, when the Arjun is two-thirds indigenous? One of the Army's argument is the Arjun is one-third indigenous. So by partnering with one of the four countries (Russia, Ukraine, France or South Korea), how does it make it 100% indigenous?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 22 Nov 2017 07:04

^^^ thats a green coloured Abrams. And a graphic designer at Times now who is really good at googling.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 22 Nov 2017 08:50

Image
The Indian Army's next main battle tank, the tank for the 2020s, till the middle of this century is the FRCV OR Future Ready Combat Vehicle. The first photographs of the tank is with TIMES NOW. This is artist's impression of the tank, as per the Indian Army's armoured corps....


Khalsa wrote:^^^ thats a green coloured Abrams. And a graphic designer at Times now who is really good at googling.


Yeah, who are these guys trying to fool. They photoshop the heaviest of them all and keep rambling about 50t :mrgreen:

Says a lot about their insider "sources".

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 22 Nov 2017 10:36

Ha!Ha!.Nothing futuristic about it too.Given our almost total inventory of Sov./Ru MBTs,the favourite for the JV partner will in all likelihood be UVZ (UranVagonzavod))makers of a certain tracked AV called "Armata"!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 22 Nov 2017 10:38

^^^ for once, you are correct. This entire FRCV tamasha was written for the Armata in mind. The other contendors are there just for show. When I said this a few moons back on BRF, I was criticized for saying so. :roll:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Venkarl » 22 Nov 2017 10:52

Future Ready Combat Vehicles (FRCVs) Will Not Discard Arjun Mk-II Tank: Lt Gen AB Shivane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ER9ANGf9SOw

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 13:46

[Edited to stop fratricide]
Last edited by ramana on 30 Nov 2017 23:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 14:19

srai wrote:Image
The Indian Army's next main battle tank, the tank for the 2020s, till the middle of this century is the FRCV OR Future Ready Combat Vehicle. The first photographs of the tank is with TIMES NOW. This is artist's impression of the tank, as per the Indian Army's armoured corps....


Khalsa wrote:^^^ thats a green coloured Abrams. And a graphic designer at Times now who is really good at googling.


Yeah, who are these guys trying to fool. They photoshop the heaviest of them all and keep rambling about 50t :mrgreen:

Says a lot about their insider "sources".


I cant believe this. The IAs action is to decide on 4 tanks to modify? That is it?

K2, Leclerc are at least existing products. Oplot from Ukraine, a country barely able to field any new product and Armata, which is a paper program ..

This is not going to be fast or easy or practical.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Venkarl » 22 Nov 2017 15:07

Karan M wrote:


...snip....

This is not going to be fast or easy or practical.


In the meanwhile, will MoD will push Arjun Mk2 as an interim system (ala rafale) :wink: ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby mody » 22 Nov 2017 16:48

I think a good option worth exploring would be to team up with the French and Germans for the FRCV.
We can provide the quantity, which the French and the Germans combined would never be able to come up with.

An indigenous effort would be preferable, but given the whole Arjun saga, it would seem we would be stuck with doing screwdrivergiri for Armata and getting screwed in the process.

The French and the Germans have teamed up to produce their next generation tank. Neither country will be buying more then 450-600 tanks at best.
We can team up with them, with assembly of all tanks taking place in India.
From the tech that is already available and individual strengths, following can be the break up of each countries contribution:

1). Main Gun - Germany. Rhein metal has developed a new 130 mm smooth bore gun. This ought to be the most powerfull MBT gun available.
2). Engine and transmission - Germany. MTU 893 or follow on model, 1500 HP engine is ready. Renk transmission is ready.
3). Turret based Autoloader - France. The Leclerc autoloader is already available.
4). TI sights and sensors - France.
5). Chassis and Armour - India. The Kanchan based next gen armour will be as good as any available in the world.
6). Track and wheels -India.
7). ERA Bricks - India
8). Active Protection System - To be Developed. Would have to be a joint effort. However, I suspect the French would have the lead in this, given their expertise in radars and sensors. DRDO can contribute given that no one currently has a system available and the APS will not consist of a single element, but a combination of various sensors and counter measures.
9). Fire Control Software, Ballistic Comp. etc. - Germany. The gun being from Rhein Metal, the software would also be from them.
10). Ammo - India/Germany. DRDO can develop a Thermobaric round for a 130 mm gun along with a CLGM missile for 130 mm. The increased diameter would easily offer a 7-8 Km range for CLGM. Maybe we can also develop a ICL-20-HMX cocrystal based propellant for the FSAPDS round. The tungsten penetrator can be supplied by the Germans. ICL-20-HMX based propellant for a 130 mm gun would give the most powerful FSAPDS round in the world. If not, for our own requirement, the FSAPDS round would be developed and produced in India. The gun FCS and Ballistic computer data would have to be provided by the Germans.
11). Quantity - India - 1,800, Germany and France - 450-600 each.
12). Manufacturing - Final assembly in India to reduce the labour cost. Maybe we can get MTU to set up shop in India to produce the engine.

A production run of at least 3,000 tanks would help lower the cost of the tanks. Plus, given the combined influence of Germany, France and India, we might be able to sell a few hundred of these to the Gulf Monarchies and others, as the latest and greatest tank in the world.
That would give us a good production run or anywhere between 3,500 to 4,000 tanks.

From the list above currently we have the tech for the gun and the related software. However, given that the Germans already have a 130 mm smoothbore gun ready and given Rhein metals expertise, we would have to accept the same, rather then go for an all imported Armata.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 22 Nov 2017 16:54

All a big natak to bring in T 14 Armata. If IA REALLY wants a state-of-art tanks, it should also invite Challenger and Abrams to quote for a "lesser" weight model

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 22 Nov 2017 16:58

mody wrote:....


HOW DOES THAT HELP THE RODINA aka RUSSIA ??? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 22 Nov 2017 17:29

mody wrote:1). Main Gun - Germany. Rhein metal has developed a new 130 mm smooth bore gun. This ought to be the most powerfull MBT gun available


And the french have tested a 140mm gun on the Le Clerc Tech Demonstrator 'Terminateur'

Photo of the Tank
Image

Photo of the shell (two piece) (Apologies for the large image)
Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 22 Nov 2017 19:05

A 5.5” gun on a tank. What do they figure they’ll use it against? Another tank? And who’ll load the shells or oversee the auto loader to correct failures? I can’t wait for IA to ask DRDO TO install one on a Maruti 800 and then complain about how the vehicle is cramped and is too heavy for our dirt roads. Rofl

Manish_P wrote:
mody wrote:1). Main Gun - Germany. Rhein metal has developed a new 130 mm smooth bore gun. This ought to be the most powerfull MBT gun available


And the french have tested a 140mm gun on the Le Clerc Tech Demonstrator 'Terminateur'

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 22 Nov 2017 19:30

Philip wrote:Given our almost total inventory of Sov./Ru MBTs,the favourite for the JV partner will in all likelihood be UVZ (UranVagonzavod)) makers of a certain tracked AV called "Armata"!


As I have posted elsewhere, even Russians themselves think that T-14 is too "western" in its design philosophy and it is only a matter of time before it goes down in infamy like the gasoline T-80s did in Chechnya-I. Meanwhile the Russian MoD has quietly placed orders for BMPT-Terminators based on the trusty T-72 heritage, one of the better ideas UVZ has had in a while.

India should also start thinking about converting the T-72s in good condition into something like the BMPTs. Yes, the IA doctrine forbids getting entangled in urban warfare (and anyway most Pak towns don't have hundreds of mid-/high-rise apartment buildings like FSU, China and Europe). But there are plenty of river-valleys that cut through steep mountain ranges, so a dual 30-mm canon on a heavy chassis with bulldozer blades and/or mine flails can prove useful in blasting though ambushes in the mountains.
Last edited by ParGha on 22 Nov 2017 21:53, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 19:48

The Indian Army and IAF have long been the frustration of the MSME segment with making them jump through hoops for defence manufacturing, only to give no orders. The latter get fed up and leave. Now Nirmala ma'am is busy asking them to again step up to the plate and take up defence manufacturing.

Now I guess this is the end of tank design (as versus assembling) in India. Until and unless a L&T or Tata is asked to partner with CVRDE to make a FMBT even if with a foreign partner, just license manufacturing some foreign design in India is a travesty, period. We lose whatever capability we had gained in design and development of armor, tank armament, fire control, and stabilization plus integration of powertrain and overall design and development.

Just to adopt some foreign design which we wont be even able to upgrade on our own freely. What happens if we want to put a new engine (engine compartment only x m3 saar, design change requires OEM assistance). New armor. Weight issues saar.

The MOD really needs to intervene.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 20:15

Rakesh wrote:^^^ for once, you are correct. This entire FRCV tamasha was written for the Armata in mind. The other contendors are there just for show. When I said this a few moons back on BRF, I was criticized for saying so. :roll:


Sad if it happens. The Armata will be a half baked item unable to perform, and the russians will as usual offer it at ridiculous prices sealing the deal, and later we will come to know the add-ons required to operationalize it will be legion and expensive.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 20:25

If the IA really wants foreign and will not accept no for an answer then IMHO we should look towards the K2 Black Panther. The French TOT -we have seen what that means for the Rafale and Scorpene. At least the K2 is in service with Turkey in a similar fashion.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 22 Nov 2017 20:42

Arun.prabhu wrote:A 5.5” gun on a tank. What do they figure they’ll use it against? Another tank? And who’ll load the shells or oversee the auto loader to correct failures? I can’t wait for IA to ask DRDO TO install one on a Maruti 800 and then complain about how the vehicle is cramped and is too heavy for our dirt roads. Rofl


Yeah. Did you check out the huge muzzle brake on the thing. See here

Anyway it's a late 90's project that they had put in cold storage. Probably got it out now just to needle the Germans with the 'my-d$#k-is-bigger-than-yours'... (there seems to be some work on joint development of their next gen MBT ?). Personally speaking, I expect the Frenchies to go their individual way soon, as usual :mrgreen:

But this is OT for this particular thread. And i don't want to be hit by a Mods ATGM.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Nov 2017 21:01

Karan M wrote:
Rakesh wrote:^^^ for once, you are correct. This entire FRCV tamasha was written for the Armata in mind. The other contendors are there just for show. When I said this a few moons back on BRF, I was criticized for saying so. :roll:


Sad if it happens. The Armata will be a half baked item unable to perform, and the russians will as usual offer it at ridiculous prices sealing the deal, and later we will come to know the add-ons required to operationalize it will be legion and expensive.


Yes. And like Charlie Brown, we never learn. The Russians do it to us time and again.

https://youtu.be/055wFyO6gag

BTW, it would seem to make more sense for a couple of (competing and state owned) ) design bureaus much like the FSU model, who compete for R&D and in bake-offs. The winner hands off all blueprints and provides the MSME winner consultancy and the latte gets a firm order for x amount.

Nah! too rational.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cosmo_R » 22 Nov 2017 21:09

^^^Picklu wrote:
In other news, it is confirmed now. IA trial team forced Arjun to run 1000s of KM in reverse gear to cause failure of the engine and used the same to reject.


Put a few more reverse gears on it and may be of serious interest to the Egyptians who will only need one forward gear in case the the Israelis attack from the rear.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 22 Nov 2017 21:37

All the jokes on TSP, and turned out the IA made sure the joke was on us. 1000 kms in reverse gear? When will any Arjun face that scenario unless it fires from prepared positions & even then, how many km will each tank run in that scenario

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Venkarl » 22 Nov 2017 22:02

Rakesh wrote:
Picklu wrote:In other news, it is confirmed now. IA trial team forced Arjun to run 1000s of KM in reverse gear to cause failure of the engine and used the same to reject.

Is there a source for this? If true, the trial team that did this to the tank needs to dismissed from service.


In that case MTU and Renk should be questioned? can Merkava and leopard do 1000kms in reverse?
Why kill arjun with this stupid FRCV? :x
I'll see which frcv can do this stupid trial of 1000kms in reverse.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 22 Nov 2017 22:31

What is the safe crew height for the Arjuns?

For comparison -- in T-72 and T-90, the max safe height for driver is 5'7" and 5'9" for the gunner and the commander. For T-55s the loaders were max 5'5" (usually 5'3"), though others could safely be 5'7" max. They are a little bit more spacious than initially estimated during the Cold War, but not much more than a couple of inches. M1 Abrams are safe for 6' max.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Picklu » 23 Nov 2017 03:51

Rakesh wrote:
Picklu wrote:In other news, it is confirmed now. IA trial team forced Arjun to run 1000s of KM in reverse gear to cause failure of the engine and used the same to reject.

Is there a source for this? If true, the trial team that did this to the tank needs to dismissed from service.


I thought everyone has already seen this in LCA dhaga.

Here is the source

https://youtu.be/epdJRXA23o8?t=1624

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 23 Nov 2017 08:38

[Edited to avoid fratricide]
Last edited by ramana on 30 Nov 2017 23:54, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 23 Nov 2017 09:17

The Russians have a massive tank inventory and right now do not need to "rush-in" (pardon the pun!) with Armata T-14 mass prod.The T-90s will be inherently cheaper and some of the Arma tech/systems may be aboard the newest ones. The Terminator however perhaps like our urgent need for new ICVs with the BMPs long in the tooth,is a more urgent need.The Arma does have an in-built capacity for an upgunned 150mm gun option,or was it 155mm? It may eventually produce some with the larger gun in parallel production.
I agree that making the gun larger will ultimately make future MBTs look like something out of Mad Magazine! One might as well equip the MBT with gun fired ATGMs instead.But 50-55t is a reasonable weight for an FMBT with all its bells and whistles,defence systems,networking ,etc. The automated crewless turret ,auto-loader and crew in an armoured "capsule" in the hull appears to be the future norm,unless a "goliath" emerges to take revenge on little Davids!

I do advocate a JV for swift production of a multi-terrain light tank.The Sprut with ERA is one option.I am sure that if the CVRDE can work out a quick desi design since the main gun is the same as on the T-72/T-90. Our desi ERA armour may be lighter and adequate for a min. std. of protection too.This is needed to stymie the Chin in the mountains.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 23 Nov 2017 19:39

Further to the above post,here are some detail a few months old,which may clear the air somewhat. It appears-if the report is accurate ,that pilot batches of the MBT will be inducted by 2019 ,put through their paces,and then a decision taken reg. series production,or further improvement.The main point of interest is about the gun,with the Rus feeling that the 125mm gun is adequate enough,instead of fitting a super-heavywieght 152mm monster of a dick !

http://russia-insider.com/en/game-chang ... te/ri16721
Xcpts:
The Russian-language news outlet Izvestia—citing a Russian Ministry of Defense source—has reported that the Afghanit APS has been successfully tested against incoming depleted uranium-cored APFSDS rounds flying at speeds of been 1.5km to 2km per second. “The first test interceptions of ‘crowbars’ (Russian military slang for sabot rounds) took place this year. This newest system was able to cope with such complex goals. Previously, it was thought to be impossible to destroy armor-piercing projectiles,” the Russian MOD source told state-owned Izvestia.“Much attention has been paid to the destruction of depleted uranium ‘crowbars’, which is now commonly used in NATO armor-piercing tank rounds. There is currently further work underway to improve the system, in particular, computer algorithms that control the interception.”

According to Izvestia, the key to the system is an active electronically scanned array radar built by the Tula Instrument Design Bureau, which lies at the heart of the Afghanit system. The system will not only be mounted on the fearsome T-14 main battle tank variant, but also on the T-15 heavy infantry fighting vehicle version of the Armata. It is also very likely that the Russians will mount the Afghanit on every combat vehicle that will eventually comprise the Armata family of combat vehicles.

Analysts specializing in Russian military affairs offered varied opinions about the veracity of the Izvestia report. Researcher Mikhail Barabanov, editor-in-chief of the Moscow Defense Brief—which is published by the Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) in Russia—said that it would make sense for the Russian military to focus on the most likely threats that its armored vehicles would face in combat. “I think that the characteristics of the Armata's APS is the big secret,” Barabanov said. “But it is unlikely [the Russian military] developed the new generation of APS without directing them toward the most common threats—uranium APFSDS and top-attack missiles.”
Michael Kofman, a research scientist specializing in Russian military affairs at the federally funded Center for Naval Analyses, said he is skeptical about the Izvestia report. “I don't see it as realistic,” Kofman said. “A discarding sabot is a depleted uranium dart, the entire concept is that the material is incredibly dense to serve as a penetrator. The Afghanit APS uses a fragmentation charge and is not liable to do much to the A4—the latest variant—of U.S. munitions. I can see it possibly pushing the dart off course with some sort of hit-to-kill approach, but I doubt much can stop it—besides combinations of ERA [explosive reactive armor] and composite armor.”

The Armata series is currently in limited production and should become operational around 2019. “As I understand it, the MOD [Ministry of Defense] ordered 100 pre-series Armata family vehicles including the T-14, T-15 and ARV [armored recovery vehicle], which will be built from 2016 to 2018,” Barbanov said. “All of those will be used for tests and development—including Army tests. Also the MOD, in 2016, signed a second contract for 70 'first series' Armata vehicles (or roughly two battalions worth) with delivery expected ‘by the end of 2019.’ That seems to coincide with when Army regular units are expected to start pilot operations with the new machines.”

Meanwhile, it is unclear when the up-gunned 152mm variant Armata main battle tank will debut. Barabanov suggests that Moscow is more than satisfied with the improved 125mm gun that is current mounted on the T-14. Thus, the Kremlin would be wiser to spend the money on improved ammunition to take full advantage of the 2A82 gun rather than spend the time and effort on a massive 152mm cannon variant.

“In my opinion, the 152mm gun on the Armata is unlikely in the near future,” Barabanov said. “According to published information, the 125mm 2A82 gun’s muzzle power on the order of 20 percent higher than the Rheinmetall 120mm L55. That margin of gun power is more than sufficient, and it is necessary to realize the surplus in the new projectiles.”

Overall, if the Armata series delivers even half the capability that the Russians claim they will eventually offer, the T-14 and its stablemates will prove to be extremely formidable combat vehicles.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 24 Nov 2017 10:17

Philip wrote: One might as well equip the MBT with gun fired ATGMs instead.


Why not ? And going by that, why have a large calibre gun too ? Serious question, not kidding. Just have ATGMs and a 30mm AD gun.

But 50-55t is a reasonable weight for an FMBT with all its bells and whistles,defence systems,networking ,etc. The automated crewless turret ,auto-loader and crew in an armoured "capsule" in the hull appears to be the future norm,unless a "goliath" emerges to take revenge on little Davids!


What is so reasonable in 50t that isn't reasonable in a 60t tank ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 24 Nov 2017 22:55

The existing bridges and the rail carriers are too light and too small for the Arjun.

There are Arjun specific BLT (Bridge Layer Tank) designed to hold that weight. Arjun can cross on those BLTs. Same with rail carriers.

But wait, we will induct phoren BLTs and phoren rail carriers for the phoren tanks. Jai Ho!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 24 Nov 2017 23:11

A few reasons:
1. Ammunition is expensive, but way less expensive than missiles. We’re talking hundreds of times more. So we can equip more tanks and afford more shells than missiles.
2. If target is in line of sight, with a silver bullet or HESH or HEAT, it is toast. With missiles, the damn thing might miss.
3. Technology exists to defend against missiles at distance . Not so much for shells as shells are cheap and the defences are neither cheap nor can they be deployed in mass.

There is a case for using HESH against tanks - spalling kills the crew - and HESH shells can be fired from recoilless rifles or even on itty bitty canons mounted on jeeps - the 105 ultrA light weight howitzer being developed by bharat forge could be a great tank killer with HESH.

And If air superiority or better still, air dominance is assured, helicopters and airplanes are the best tank killers of all...

srin wrote:
Philip wrote: One might as well equip the MBT with gun fired ATGMs instead.


Why not ? And going by that, why have a large calibre gun too ? Serious question, not kidding. Just have ATGMs and a 30mm AD gun.

But 50-55t is a reasonable weight for an FMBT with all its bells and whistles,defence systems,networking ,etc. The automated crewless turret ,auto-loader and crew in an armoured "capsule" in the hull appears to be the future norm,unless a "goliath" emerges to take revenge on little Davids!


What is so reasonable in 50t that isn't reasonable in a 60t tank ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 24 Nov 2017 23:27

Oh and note that even with an effective HESH shell for the ULWH, the herb and its crew are toast if even a machine gunner has them in his sights. But if we’re willing to spend lives like water - the Chinese were in Korea, Vietnam and even against us, for example - it’d be an awesome anti tank platform.

Arun.prabhu wrote:A few reasons:
1. Ammunition is expensive, but way less expensive than missiles. We’re talking hundreds of times more. So we can equip more tanks and afford more shells than missiles.
2. If target is in line of sight, with a silver bullet or HESH or HEAT, it is toast. With missiles, the damn thing might miss.
3. Technology exists to defend against missiles at distance . Not so much for shells as shells are cheap and the defences are neither cheap nor can they be deployed in mass.

There is a case for using HESH against tanks - spalling kills the crew - and HESH shells can be fired from recoilless rifles or even on itty bitty canons mounted on jeeps - the 105 ultrA light weight howitzer being developed by bharat forge could be a great tank killer with HESH.

And If air superiority or better still, air dominance is assured, helicopters and airplanes are the best tank killers of all...

srin wrote:
Why not ? And going by that, why have a large calibre gun too ? Serious question, not kidding. Just have ATGMs and a 30mm AD gun.



What is so reasonable in 50t that isn't reasonable in a 60t tank ?

Arun.prabhu
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 24 Nov 2017 23:40

I should stop responding to myself.

In the Himalayas, with its short ranges and light tanks and weight requirements, the mounted ULWH with HESH round would be the ideal antitank and even antipersonnel platform. In the thar or the plains of Punjab, they’d be so much minced meat.

Arun.prabhu wrote:Oh and note that even with an effective HESH shell for the ULWH, the herb and its crew are toast if even a machine gunner has them in his sights. But if we’re willing to spend lives like water - the Chinese were in Korea, Vietnam and even against us, for example - it’d be an awesome anti tank platform.

Arun.prabhu wrote:A few reasons:
1. Ammunition is expensive, but way less expensive than missiles. We’re talking hundreds of times more. So we can equip more tanks and afford more shells than missiles.
2. If target is in line of sight, with a silver bullet or HESH or HEAT, it is toast. With missiles, the damn thing might miss.
3. Technology exists to defend against missiles at distance . Not so much for shells as shells are cheap and the defences are neither cheap nor can they be deployed in mass.

There is a case for using HESH against tanks - spalling kills the crew - and HESH shells can be fired from recoilless rifles or even on itty bitty canons mounted on jeeps - the 105 ultrA light weight howitzer being developed by bharat forge could be a great tank killer with HESH.

And If air superiority or better still, air dominance is assured, helicopters and airplanes are the best tank killers of all...


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 24 Nov 2017 23:49

^^ Two questions:
- What's the effectiveness of HESH round on spaced armour ?
- How does the muzzle velocity of 105mm howitzer compare to that of a tank ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 24 Nov 2017 23:57

srin wrote:^^ Two questions:
- What's the effectiveness of HESH round on spaced armour ?
- How does the muzzle velocity of 105mm howitzer compare to that of a tank ?


I don’t know of a study that measured effectiveness of HESH against spaced armor, so I can’t state anything authoritatively. but concrete or metal with air bubbles is a known effective armor with traditional kinetic shells and bullets. Very effective one, in fact. However, Unless there is no contact between the two armor plates, there’ll be spalling inside the crew compartment. HESH works very well in killing crews of strong points built of concrete with air bubbles.

Oh, and muzzle velocity doesn’t matter because you’re firing line of sight and you don’t need kinetic energy to defeat the armor like a silver bullet does.

Edited because I clicked submit before composing the whole message, the idiot that I am.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2017 02:11

srin wrote:^^ Two questions:
- What's the effectiveness of HESH round on spaced armour ?
- How does the muzzle velocity of 105mm howitzer compare to that of a tank ?


Plus, most tanks now have spall liners, and HESH can at best mission kill a tank by stripping its sights etc. But not reliably penetrate modern armor arrays. There is s big reason FSAPDS remains part of the Arjun loadout.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 25 Nov 2017 02:15

^^^

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7276&p=2189067&hilit=DRDO+hesh#p2189067

From DRDO tech forcus 2002

HESH

High Explosive Squash Head (HESH) is the secondary ammunition for Arjun and is effective against a variety of soft targets, tanks, fortifications, etc. The complete HESH round consists of a semi-combustible cartridge case, primer with steel obturating cup, and a single-base propellant. The optimised explosive composition of HESH defeats rolled homogenous armour plate detaching a scab of about 9 kg mass moving with a velocity of 100 to 120 m/s. Besides the scabbing effect, blast and shock imparts a tremendous jolt to the enemy tank stripping off explosive reactive armour and incapacitating the crew severely, thereby affecting their fighting capabilities. The accuracy of the HESH is of the order of 0.25 mil standard deviation.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2017 02:22

Right, RHA not spaced modern arrays however a very important point there noting ERA will also be stripped. Arjun crews could use the HESH+ FSAPDS combo to take out ERA kitted tanks with a greaer chance of success provided they have the time.


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