MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1279
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Nov 2017 06:08

It might be a stupid question but can arjun take a defensive role while t 90 takes an offensive role in the rear

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6876
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 25 Nov 2017 07:45

Karan and Gagan sir, you both know better than to engage in this tu-tu-main-main. You are oldies and knowledgeable. We expect close to model behaviour from both of you :-)

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15519
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2017 08:24

[Edited]
Last edited by ramana on 30 Nov 2017 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: ramana

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 6876
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 25 Nov 2017 08:32

Give each other some leeway. Everything will be fine.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 25 Nov 2017 10:09

Arun.prabhu wrote:
srin wrote:^^ Two questions:
- What's the effectiveness of HESH round on spaced armour ?
- How does the muzzle velocity of 105mm howitzer compare to that of a tank ?


Oh, and muzzle velocity doesn’t matter because you’re firing line of sight and you don’t need kinetic energy to defeat the armor like a silver bullet does.

Edited because I clicked submit before composing the whole message, the idiot that I am.


How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?

Arun.prabhu
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 86
Joined: 28 Aug 2016 19:26

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Arun.prabhu » 25 Nov 2017 19:38

srin wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:
Oh, and muzzle velocity doesn’t matter because you’re firing line of sight and you don’t need kinetic energy to defeat the armor like a silver bullet does.

Edited because I clicked submit before composing the whole message, the idiot that I am.


How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?


I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 866
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 25 Nov 2017 20:17

Arun.prabhu wrote:I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?


It is very difficult to hit a moving target with direct fire artillery, and it is very dangerous to your crew especially after the first round has been fired and your position revealed.

IA has known this since at least the 1940s, when its "anti-tank regiments" had one battery of anti-tank guns and two batteries of medium/heavy mortars. Even the Russians, who had long invested in such artillery, have largely abandoned this concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun) except for border guards.

That said, indirect-fire artillery is still a potent tank-killer if it catches a tank regiment in a railway-station or a narrow mountain/marsh pass.

shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35041
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shiv » 25 Nov 2017 20:20

srin wrote:How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?

Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM


Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 866
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 25 Nov 2017 20:30

ArjunPandit wrote:It might be a stupid question but can arjun take a defensive role while t 90 takes an offensive role in the rear


It is a legitimate question, and seriously worth pursuing if it helps preserve the knowledge and capabilities that has been built up over last 30 years, AND provides a platform to incrementally build and deploy own engine, transmission, etc.

In a defensive role in critical areas like Akhnoor and Gurdaspur where neither side is likely to make a lot of headway, IA can live with the trade-off between Arjun's better armor and lower mobility (while India works out its domestic engines and transmission).

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1236
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Nov 2017 03:07

shiv wrote:
srin wrote:How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?

Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM

Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.



How/why does the barrel move forward before shell is fired ?

Picklu
BRFite
Posts: 1715
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Picklu » 26 Nov 2017 04:36

Thakur_B wrote:
shiv wrote:Use stop signal.

OFB site says 105 mm shell has mujjle velocity of 600 plus m/s depending on charge. Assume 700 Range 11 km (probably as howitzer) In direct line of sight a tank at 1 km moving at 40 kmph will have moved 11 meters - which is more than the length of Al Khaled tank. "Andaaz" aiming like skeet shooting will be needed. The Howitzer has no mechanism for compensating for movement because artillery is an area weapon or for static targets in direct fire mode. Tanks could be hit if they are heading directly at the Howitzer. Or showing sooth and running. The Kalyani truck mounted Howitzer uses OFB gun and is based on this:

https://youtu.be/4b_-VOTl7FM

Note that 1 km is dangerously close. Tanks are able to hit moving targets well in excess of that. Once the Howitzer is spotted it will be put in a Howitzer blitzer.


How/why does the barrel move forward before shell is fired ?


Soft recoil system, developed by Mandus group for this hawkeye system. Same used in the ultra light gun by Kalyani

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1236
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Nov 2017 09:40

I know that, just wondering how does that work.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1027
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gyan » 26 Nov 2017 11:02

In an emergency do or die situation, I expect tanks to be moving towards 105mm artillery. In that situation from 3km onwards, artillery can engage tanks in direct fire mode as deviation from targeted position will be minimal ( if tanks are moving towards artillery positions). Though 105mm artillery will do most of the dying.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 26 Nov 2017 11:18

Arun.prabhu wrote:
srin wrote:
How will this 105 ultra light howitzer target moving tanks ? Shoot in a parabolic trajectory and hope that the tank doesn't move for next 10 seconds?


I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?


Even in direct fire, it needs to be aimed. And with such a low muzzle velocity (~700 m/s compared to a tanks` 1600 m/s), it has to use a more ballistic trajectory, no ? And that increases the time to hit the target. Which makes it iffy against a moving target.
And what is the silver bullet you keep talking about ?

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2211
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 26 Nov 2017 12:04

Thakur_B wrote:I know that, just wondering how does that work.

https://youtu.be/yDQDJnUJyl8?t=55s

Thakur_B
BRFite
Posts: 1236
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 26 Nov 2017 14:13

abhik wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:I know that, just wondering how does that work.

https://youtu.be/yDQDJnUJyl8?t=55s


Thanks Abhik. This means soft recoil is something like a blowback recoil system, but with entire breech and barrel assembly been thrown forward instead of just hammer.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50400
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 00:01

srin, Good point the low velocity of the 105 mm HESH round makes it doubtful to engage moving tanks at long distances. Most likely its do or die last ditch near range engagement.
Most arty guns have direct fire mode and a anti-tank round since WWII.

Hopefully the new PGK fuze will allow a top down attack on the tanks.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50400
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 00:03

Indranil wrote:Karan and Gagan sir, you both know better than to engage in this tu-tu-main-main. You are oldies and knowledgeable. We expect close to model behaviour from both of you :-)


I second that.

I have edited the posts to avoid fratricide.

Thanks for understanding.
ramana

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1566
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 01 Dec 2017 00:24

Story of South Korea's K2 tank

Read and weep. This was Arjun was meant to do for us, and we can still do it.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 01 Dec 2017 01:05

At $8.3M it is a costly tank .Arjun is a little more expensive but is 10t heavier and better protected. The DRDO/ CVRDE must now accelerate design/dev. of a smaller more futuristic FMBT whatever its nomenclature .IDRW has a May 2017 article discussing the Arjun, FMBT and T-14.According to it we are trying to develop a 2-man auto turret MBT, no gunner or loader.The long gestation time is a worry which may result in T-14 tech/T- 14 platforms acquired in the interim given the IA's familiarity with the T series.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50400
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 01:21

No bread slicer?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50400
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 01 Dec 2017 01:23

I think to be really futuristic the tank should have a laser cannon and a huge capacitor bank. The engine can be used to generate electricity to charge the laser.

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 35889
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 22 Dec 2017 08:37

http://www.governancenow.com/views/colu ... nce-forces

Why the fight for Tejas and Arjun is not just about defence forces

They are symbols of decades of research and hard work accumulating, integrating and establishing technologies that have the potential to transform India’s model of growth and development

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2197
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 22 Dec 2017 08:50

Stupid question, but if MOD folks are ever found guilty of taking bribes and killing an indigenous product can they be court martialed?

India has also been participating in the tank games for the last couple of years using its variants of the T-72 tanks. These games are considered to be the equivalent of Olympics for tank crews and commanders. The Chinese were also extremely keen for Arjun to participate since they have been using their top of the line Type-96B in these games. To China’s credit, Type-96B in terms of sheer quality has kept pace with some of the best tanks that Russia and the world has to offer. The eventual difference between the winning and losing crews, especially as far as competition between China, India and Russia was concerned, was in terms of crew training, familiarity with the course and the equipment that they were using. Both the Russians and Chinese had heard enough good things about Arjun to lobby the Indian government hard to get them to participate. The Indian Army was reluctant, but the then defence minister Manohar Parrikar put his foot down. An extremely petulant Indian Army entered the contest with India to be represented by two Arjun MK1s to be drawn from the 75th armoured unit stationed at Jaisalmer. An excited DRDO started the modifications like strengthening undercarriages and removing the explosive reactive armour (ERA) packs to increase mobility required for the games.

But Parrikar become the Goa chief minister and the defence ministry was temporarily under Arun Jaitley. The Indian Army immediately nixed the plan to send the Arjun tanks and instead sent two T-90M Bhishmas to represent our country. To be fair, the T-90M performed creditably and quite well and the Indian Army tank crew, at one point, was actually leading the biathalon. However, both the T-90s broke down and India was knocked out. The point here is not about the T-90M, which are excellent and robust tanks, but it is about how Arjun, which in every respect seems to be better than the T-90M, is not allowed to showcase it strength and potential. In some ways then, Arjun seems to be Karna of modern India, such a whimsical twist that it puts irony out of shape.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1279
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Dec 2017 10:11

^^^^A raja and kanimozi are not found guilty in this and you are expecting MoD folks to be found guilty.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1529
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 22 Dec 2017 13:50

Court martial is only for military personnel, isn't it.

A closer parallel would be baboos... like these creatures for eg - The Tale Of Two Joshis From Bhopal

They will probably be in some time (if not out already).. and some reports suggesting that their kids have happily married and setlled in the land of the free.

From the article

While Tinu was a deputy secretary in the PMO in 1988-89, her husband was a joint secretary in defence ministry during the 1999 Kargil war. It was around that time that a major deal for purchase of light helicopters was signed and he is believed to have made his millions during the period.

VKumar
BRFite
Posts: 434
Joined: 15 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Mumbai,India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby VKumar » 22 Dec 2017 22:39

ParGha wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:I’m talking direct line of sight fire here and you’re talking indirect fire? Do silver bullets miraculously travel at the speed of light and blow up enemy tanks?


It is very difficult to hit a moving target with direct fire artillery, and it is very dangerous to your crew especially after the first round has been fired and your position revealed.

IA has known this since at least the 1940s, when its "anti-tank regiments" had one battery of anti-tank guns and two batteries of medium/heavy mortars. Even the Russians, who had long invested in such artillery, have largely abandoned this concept (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-12_antitank_gun) except for border guards.

That said, indirect-fire artillery is still a potent tank-killer if it catches a tank regiment in a railway-station or a narrow mountain/marsh pass.



PVC Abdul Hamid used anti tank recoilless rifle mounted on Jeep.
The idea is to shoot and scoot.

sohamn
BRFite
Posts: 300
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 12:56
Location: the Queen of the Angels of Porziuncola
Contact:

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby sohamn » 23 Dec 2017 05:03

A recoilless rifle is not an artillery piece, it's more like a handheld rocket, albeit slightly larger. You can shoot and scoot with Carl Gustav but can't go the same with direct fire anti-tank artillery. The best anti-tank weapons in open land are
a) Another Tank like Arjun
b) Helicopter with Helina
c) Dedicated tank destroyers like BMP based namica

Also, Carl Gustav won't penetrate the armour of any modern tank, I think its kept in reserve for destroying pillboxes and light armoured vehicles only.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19592
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 23 Dec 2017 05:18

What light helo was signed in the aftermath of Kargil? To the best of my knowledge zilch, why the LUH req. is so critical today.The only light helos acquired were HAL built Chetak/Cheetahs.

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1529
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 01 Jan 2018 13:19


chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2686
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 01 Jan 2018 14:06

srin wrote:Story of South Korea's K2 tank

Read and weep. This was Arjun was meant to do for us, and we can still do it.



Not weep. Read and learn. The South Koreans have exploded on the global export stage on sea and in air as well as land.

They also screwdriver giri from the West as well but have structured their contracts so they now sell howitzers to Norway and frigates to the Phillipines. Oh yeah, they might end up supplying the USAF with hundreds of trainers.

And the stuff they’ve built for themselves from this access to the Western arsenal is world class — the K2 mentioned above but also their Sejong class with 128 VLS (80 launchers on Mk41, 48 on indigenous K-VLS) is probably the most powerful destroyer on earth.

We have the same access to technology as the South Koreans. Actually, we have more — the SoKos don’t have access to Russian stuff. What the South Koreans have done is imminently possible for us. And we have a larger defense budget.

Don’t weep. Be inspired. Learn.

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1018
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vips » 01 Jan 2018 19:54

South Korea got the TOT from Germany for the U209 submarine, mastered its production, improved its performance and even competed against the Germans for order from the Indonesian Navy!!!

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 172
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rishi_Tri » 03 Jan 2018 04:56

Manish_P wrote:Arjun in K K Range sector

Cross post of Uddu, from the Armor thread (From DFI)





Fantastic videos. Great advertisement for the Hydro Pneumatic suspension. Had spoken with an Army Officer involved in the program on sidelines of DefExpo in Delhi some years ago and he said, the suspension was one of the best in the world.

BTW, the Dog must have had the fright of his life though he had the best view. :)

Manish_P
BRFite
Posts: 1529
Joined: 25 Mar 2010 17:34

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 03 Jan 2018 08:13

Actually the dog seems pretty relaxed as the Arjun smoothly goes past. Seems it has a lot of confidence in the Arjun and the driver.
(Could be distance or could be familiarity)

Compared to the strays in my colony, who run crazy scared even if a small unfamiliar truck rumbles in :)

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 308
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Jan 2018 08:56

Saurav Jha -
Things are becoming interesting now. Here's a rendition of a 'revolutionary configuration' study for a potential next generation main battle tank by DRDO's CVRDE that could weigh in at just 41 tons. Source: DRDO's DSJ

It's been dubbed Generation Next MBT = GNMBT.


Of course, the paper itself where this rendition is given deals with the use of a 'design of experiments' statistical approach towards weight management for which both an evolutionary and a revolutionary configuration were considered.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/948618584829321216

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4087
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 04 Jan 2018 09:07

ashishvikas wrote:Saurav Jha -
Things are becoming interesting now. Here's a rendition of a 'revolutionary configuration' study for a potential next generation main battle tank by DRDO's CVRDE that could weigh in at just 41 tons. Source: DRDO's DSJ

It's been dubbed Generation Next MBT = GNMBT.


Of course, the paper itself where this rendition is given deals with the use of a 'design of experiments' statistical approach towards weight management for which both an evolutionary and a revolutionary configuration were considered.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/948618584829321216


Image
Image

Better for them to move to 2-crew--Driver and WSO--configuration. No need for a separate "gunner".

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50400
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2018 04:16

Pratik has a conceptual study on an electric drive for Arjun. He will post here soon.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15519
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 04:21

SRai - IMHO three crew are needed at a minimum to maintain the tank, maintain situational awareness (even with electronics, under NBC and combat environment, how many hours can a human manage) & also provide redundancy (if one crew is injured, say the gunner, the commander can take over).

Also, IA is used to three crew per tank, so it won't rock the boat.

PS: Wouldn't it be great if this NGMBT gets funded, developed and even clears trials while the FCRV does a MMRCA and results in some boondoggle (because that's what seems likely will happen).

Vivek K
BRFite
Posts: 1877
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 07 Jan 2018 04:34

DRDO would be stupid to get into the tank business again. The tank biathlon representation change shows the mindset. Chola, weep is the right word. Be inspired and then at the last moment the corrupt come forth and nix indigenous development. So inspiration will only lead to frustration unless the mindset is changed from within the IA.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 15519
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 04:49

Stupid or not, DRDO has to do what the nation requires of them. If they had sat watching at the sidelines, as in ATAGS, listening to all the mocking naysayers there would be no ATAGS program or Astra or so many others, where easier imports were available. So Arjun did not work out, but lets not throw our tank building expertise into the dustbin.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ritesh, Varuna and 38 guests