MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2018 04:59

Vivek K wrote:DRDO would be stupid to get into the tank business again. The tank biathlon representation change shows the mindset. Chola, weep is the right word. Be inspired and then at the last moment the corrupt come forth and nix indigenous development. So inspiration will only lead to frustration unless the mindset is changed from within the IA.



VivekK,

They have to try. There is no other option.

Eventually the hope is reason prevails.

You should see the Twitter warriors.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 05:01

Also guys, please see the opportunity.

DRDO has a design process in place (even if initial study) that is superior conceptually to almost all the existing designs out there and matches the Armata. Let them fix that and bring it into being. Being in-house it will be far more flexible and without any restrictions. If run properly, like ATAGS with proper funding & private participation, we may have a world leader on our hands.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 07 Jan 2018 05:07

ramana wrote:Pratik has a conceptual study on an electric drive for Arjun. He will post here soon.


This is the DSJ issue with all the details.
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... 82/showToc

ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2018 05:14

Thanks.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2018 05:34

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:Pratik has a conceptual study on an electric drive for Arjun. He will post here soon.


This is the DSJ issue with all the details.
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... 82/showToc


Karan Ji, this is far from exhaustive or publication-grade, but here goes:

I was looking into Arjun MBT specs and the possibility of having an electric tank, with drop-and-replace battery packs, of course. The current 1400 HP motor weighs 4299 lbs [1]. It turns out that electric motors in Tesla and from Bosch can easily do 1 HP / lb [2,3]. So a 1400 HP motor pack with 4 electric motors would only weigh 1400 lbs. Electric tank weight savings so far: 2899 lbs.

The Arjun has a 1610 liter diesel fuel tank for a range of 200 km and the fuel alone would weigh 3020 lbs [4,5]. In contrast, the weight of the battery pack in one Tesla is estimated to be 1323 lbs [3]. The weight of 4 such battery packs for a 4-motor system without compromising range would be 5292 lbs.

Electric tank weight advantage = 4299 - 1400 + 3020 - 5292 = 627 lbs or 284.4 kg
In other words, the weight of the tank crew is completely negated.

While I was going to say that considerable radiator weight can be saved when getting rid of an internal combustion engine, I decided against considering that advantage because lithium batteries don't fare well above 45C, so the batteries would need a cooling system anyway and I'm considering no weight advantage there.

I do think an electric tank would have a considerably lower thermal signature though - making it more stealthy against thermal imaging weapons, and be so much quieter. Acceleration and reversing would be so much easier as well.

References:
[1] MTU engine for Arjun
[2] Bosch motors
[3] Tesla weight distribution
[4] Arjun fuel capacity
[5] Diesel fuel weight

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Jan 2018 08:14

I think an electric light tank could be developed first tp prove the concept/ reliability.If successful, one could then scale it up to MBT size based upon the experience gained with the LT.
Last edited by Philip on 07 Jan 2018 08:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Surya » 07 Jan 2018 08:14

and the charging logistics??

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Jan 2018 08:17

Giant battery "tankers/generators" where no infra is available

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby DavidD » 07 Jan 2018 08:39

The Tesla battery is designed to replace ~50 liters of gasoline, you'll need like 30 of those to replace a MBT's fuel requirement.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Sumair » 07 Jan 2018 09:00

FYI Lahore gets 20 hour power cuts. :D

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby PratikDas » 07 Jan 2018 09:28

Surya wrote:and the charging logistics??

Certainly inconvenient but not insurmountable.

DavidD wrote:The Tesla battery is designed to replace ~50 liters of gasoline, you'll need like 30 of those to replace a MBT's fuel requirement.

This is a monkey wrench in the works, no doubt and I hadn't considered the MTU engine's burn rate.

Specific energy of diesel: 48 MJ/kg (diesel engine is ~ 45% efficient, hence 21.6 MJ/kg effective)
Specific energy of lithium ion battery: 0.38 MJ/kg (AC induction motor + inverter ~ 88% efficient, hence 0.33 MJ/kg effective)

The ratio of the effective specific energy is in fact worse than 30. It's more like 65.5.

I guess this explains why we don't have electric tanks. Thanks for the indulgence.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby sudeepj » 07 Jan 2018 11:07

The possibility of using an advanced Li battery to power the electronics when on standby duty is interesting though. It will replace the aux generator, be completely silent and have a much lower heat signature as well.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Jan 2018 11:20

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:Pratik has a conceptual study on an electric drive for Arjun. He will post here soon.


This is the DSJ issue with all the details.
http://publications.drdo.gov.in/ojs/ind ... 82/showToc


Pratik, May be hybrid is the way. Look at #2 paper.

Keep thinking.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby deejay » 07 Jan 2018 12:18

sudeepj wrote:The possibility of using an advanced Li battery to power the electronics when on standby duty is interesting though. It will replace the aux generator, be completely silent and have a much lower heat signature as well.


Interesting discussions here. I have been looking at on-field application of battery/ alternative energy source for powering equipment in battlefield. In Syria and Iraq, remote locations have used solar panels and portable mini wind fans to power up comm equipment etc.

Most in person digital equipment like NVG, Thermal cams, lights, comm sets, BMS tablets, phones and cameras are Li battery powered which are charged through above mentioned electricity generators or some times using vehicle engines (including tanks) as generators.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 07 Jan 2018 15:43

Another issue to consider is the size of such a engine. Bigger the volume heavier the armour required to protect it.

We have this problem in Arjun. The older 1400hp is bigger than the 1500hp MTU. If we had the compact 1500 we would have reduced weight.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 07 Jan 2018 16:22

Bhaat is this!!!
Lawhore has 20 hr power cuts, so no electric Arjun
Lawhore doesn’t have bridges that can handle a 70 ton diesel Arjun

Sounds to me like Lawhore isn’t worth mounting an invasion on. Bleedy beggers don’t seem to have any civic infrastructure worth defending, just foxholes for jeehardis and corner plots for bak-faujis

Added later: Maybe Heavy industries Taxila will build a Al-zarrar with a water kit
India has plenty of water. Afterall india has stolen all the river water no

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 07 Jan 2018 16:49

^^^
Thought India had moved past Pakistan ;)

If China a “equal” rival, then 68T Arjun MBT Mk2 no problem! The Chinese have all the infrastructure to handle Arjun on their side. India just needs to build its side of the border ... once across smooth sailing :P

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 07 Jan 2018 17:43

Chola, weep is the right word. Be inspired and then at the last moment the corrupt come forth and nix indigenous development. So inspiration will only lead to frustration unless the mindset is changed from within the IA.


Well Vivek ji, that was a complete downer to my inspirational post.

The Chinese have all the infrastructure to handle Arjun on their side. India just needs to build its side of the border ... once across smooth sailing :P


Ah HA! It was actually forward thinking on the part of DRDO, the Arjun was designed to make use of chini infrastructure!

Srai, thanks for counteracting the depressing sentiment above.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shaun » 07 Jan 2018 19:27

More over the porkies are playing safe , evaluating VT4 Battle Tanks , it weigh 52 ton !!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 08 Jan 2018 02:08

FWIW - Tesla drivers are reporting a 30-50% range loss this week with the NE US temperatures in -10 to -20C range. Forget about ever deploying this technology in Ladakh or Sikkim or North Kashmir.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 08 Jan 2018 03:25

What if it was a hybrid 10 years from now laser cannon will become the new thing. How to power them?


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Jan 2018 15:38

^^ Vishnu ji, if you are reading this, come forth and take a jaadu ki jhappi.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Jan 2018 17:07


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby putnanja » 08 Jan 2018 17:29



I was expecting more insights from his visit to the 43rd Amd regiment. Views from actual users etc. While the article has good info, its nothing new for BRFites. Would have been better to share the experience of the regiment operating too, as he visited the regiment.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Jan 2018 20:09


somebody please pass me tissue...sob sob...vishnu som, great job man

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby manjgu » 08 Jan 2018 20:42

till the defence pvt sector matures and is able to bribe govt babus and hire them post retirement ( just as dirubhai ambani did) nothing much gonna happen wrt domestic def procurement.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 08 Jan 2018 21:26

^^ the biggest constraint of Arjun - logistics constraints due to weight - has been addressed. Because of new systems like Smerch, BrahMos, 155 mm artillery, etc, the Army has to get more powerful prime movers and MLC 70 class bridging equipment. Plus Arjun sub assemblies are more longer lasting than T series, so EME chaps love it. And whether a T series or Arjun, logistics for a set of tanks will remain constant. The Hydropneumatic suspension and stabilisation gives Arjun high first shot kill probability.

The younger chaps love it, all that remains is convincing the oldies.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shaun » 08 Jan 2018 21:33

Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashishvikas » 08 Jan 2018 21:39



In September, the new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman visited 43 Armoured Regiment to get a first hand look at the Arjun tank. A month later, she visited the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment in Chennai where the tank was developed - signals which some say are an indicator that the Arjun main battle tank's best days are yet to come.

Does that mean something really ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashthor » 08 Jan 2018 22:07

shaun wrote:Image


awesome beast

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jahaju » 08 Jan 2018 22:13

Vishnu Som of NDTV with Arjun MBT in Rajasthan Live now.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby jahaju » 08 Jan 2018 22:25

It was a short program now over

Link to blog

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 09 Jan 2018 00:13

DRDO needs to start acting like a proper arms manufacturer. Not just research labs.

It is probably one of the largest arms designer in the world. No other organization in the world is involved in everything from meals,bullet proof jackets, rifles to nukes, nuke subs, jets,AWACS, to SAMs, BVR,BMD, artillery!

It is time DRDO starts providing solutions without waiting for RFPs. Like tanks, DRDO should have by now brought a prototype 3 man sub 50 ton tank, if required with 130 mm and hand it over army to try it out.

DRDO need to provide generation leap in tech, not chase RFPs.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 09 Jan 2018 00:17

nam wrote:It is time DRDO starts providing solutions without waiting for RFPs. Like tanks, DRDO should have by now brought a prototype 3 man sub 50 ton tank, if required with 130 mm and hand it over army to try it out.

With what money? A private manufacturer has complete discretion over using available funds and raising more with debts etc. DRDO does not.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby brvarsh » 09 Jan 2018 00:50

ashthor wrote:
shaun wrote:Image


awesome beast

Menacing!!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 09 Jan 2018 01:17

nachiket wrote:
nam wrote:It is time DRDO starts providing solutions without waiting for RFPs. Like tanks, DRDO should have by now brought a prototype 3 man sub 50 ton tank, if required with 130 mm and hand it over army to try it out.

With what money? A private manufacturer has complete discretion over using available funds and raising more with debts etc. DRDO does not.


Which is why I said it needs to think like a arms manufacturer. It needs to ask MoD to change the way it is funded. It is a R&D institution, it will always need fund for research projects. So there is always a amount of discretion.If it can roll out products liked by the services ( out of RFPs), then it gets more funding.

Just like a typical arms manufacturers.

If required it can monetize it's labs and tech to private industries.For example, BMD was a out and out DRDO project. The service did not ask for it. If it can do it with BMD, tanks are much simpler.

DRDO has spend enough time RFP chasing. Now it needs to act like remorseless arm manufacturer.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 02:50

manjgu wrote:till the defence pvt sector matures and is able to bribe govt babus and hire them post retirement ( just as dirubhai ambani did) nothing much gonna happen wrt domestic def procurement.



In early 90s an uncle figure was in charge of a PSU Fertilizer plant which needed to be expanded. He battled US consultants who were wary of dual use technology but bigger hurdle was the UF govt minister who wanted a bribe to sign the file. Uncleji said he was heading a PSU and where will they get bribe money to give? The minister said never mind he would collect anyway once production starts. Fortunately the govt fell.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 03:04

tsarkar wrote:^^ the biggest constraint of Arjun - logistics constraints due to weight - has been addressed. Because of new systems like Smerch, BrahMos, 155 mm artillery, etc, the Army has to get more powerful prime movers and MLC 70 class bridging equipment. Plus Arjun sub assemblies are more longer lasting than T series, so EME chaps love it. And whether a T series or Arjun, logistics for a set of tanks will remain constant. The Hydropneumatic suspension and stabilisation gives Arjun high first shot kill probability.

The younger chaps love it, all that remains is convincing the oldies.



tsarkar, if the 120mm gun can engage targets at 3km with 80% hit probability which person would use the LAHAT at 1.2Km? At that range its more likely 100% hit probability no?



How many rounds does Arjun carry?
Also wasn't there a Thermobaric round for the 120mm gun?

A question. How many tankers saw combat in their service?
Most likely the possibility of combat is growing everyday.

Looks like the article debunks a lot of gripes on Arjun.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Jan 2018 03:06

ramana wrote:Most likely the possibility of combat is growing everyday.

I have similar sense, but I am expecting it after 2019


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