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MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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vasu raya
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby vasu raya » 09 Jan 2018 04:06

nam wrote:DRDO needs to start acting like a proper arms manufacturer. Not just research labs.

It is probably one of the largest arms designer in the world. No other organization in the world is involved in everything from meals,bullet proof jackets, rifles to nukes, nuke subs, jets,AWACS, to SAMs, BVR,BMD, artillery!

It is time DRDO starts providing solutions without waiting for RFPs. Like tanks, DRDO should have by now brought a prototype 3 man sub 50 ton tank, if required with 130 mm and hand it over army to try it out.

DRDO need to provide generation leap in tech, not chase RFPs.


small blurb, they would need more self funded risk reduction programs, not necessarily end products, that way long lead development times can be reduced and stay relevant when RFP's are issued. At least some research institutions thrive on royalties on their patents and then there is the example of Antrix ...

Srutayus
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Srutayus » 09 Jan 2018 04:13

if the 120mm gun can engage targets at 3km with 80% hit probability which person would use the LAHAT at 1.2Km? At that range its more likely 100% hit probability no?


No one will. That is why no western MBT has a requirement for a guided missile.
Soviet tanks did due to the longer engagement ranges of NATO tanks from the differences in the tank guns and APFSDS between the 2 sides.
So the ATGM requirement was for Soviet tanks to have a fighting chance against NATO MBTs at longer ranges, even though tank guns are much faster and more lethal in comparison.

If the requirement for the ATGM holding up the Arjun is a joke, the requirement for the sub 1200m capability holding it up when an ATGM is available is both a farce and a tragedy.

nam
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 09 Jan 2018 04:20

It is probably not about hitting the target at 500 meters,but about effect on the target.

What if the sabot round fails to penetrate at 500 MTRS?

We need to remember our sabot capability,local and imported and production is not ideal.

A tandem warhead atgm has a better chance against a era covered tank.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Jan 2018 04:22

nam wrote:DRDO needs to start acting like a proper arms manufacturer. Not just research labs.

It is probably one of the largest arms designer in the world. No other organization in the world is involved in everything from meals,bullet proof jackets, rifles to nukes, nuke subs, jets,AWACS, to SAMs, BVR,BMD, artillery!

It is time DRDO starts providing solutions without waiting for RFPs. Like tanks, DRDO should have by now brought a prototype 3 man sub 50 ton tank, if required with 130 mm and hand it over army to try it out.

DRDO need to provide generation leap in tech, not chase RFPs.


You cannot expect the DRDO to change without changing the over all structure of how the relationship between the Armed Forces - MOD - DRDO et all works.

We should do lots of things but before that perhaps it would be pertinent to go back to all those posts in BR which talk about all this and then systematically list out a holistic solution.

ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 04:59

Looks like lot of former tank officers on Twitter are taking up these requirements.

Indranil
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 09 Jan 2018 05:02

DRDO is non-revenue based. How do you suggest that it proactively develop products without funding?

ramana
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 05:09

Anyone know the weight and muzzle velocity of the Arjun 120mm rounds vs. T90 125mm smooth bore?

Thanks, ramana

---
Answering my own question the Arjun data

MV 1650m/s
Number of rounds 39.

Weight of projectile ?

T-90 data

Number of rounds 42

MV 1800m/s for APDS

Weight of projectile 5.6 to 7 kg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2A46_125_mm_gun

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Singha » 09 Jan 2018 07:07

the arjun sabots will be as long as the western ones, while in T72/90 it is limited by the size of the carousel?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Jan 2018 08:32

shaun wrote:Image


Just wait till the product finishes development and the laser designator, sight window and mantle get proper armor modules.

Ankit Desai
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Ankit Desai » 09 Jan 2018 09:11

Story of Arjun by Vishnu Som.

Video

Text - Why The Army's Arjun Tank May Be Its Best Bet Yet

Last month, in a clear signal that it had not lost hope in the Tejas, the government paved the way for the manufacture of 83 Tejas Mk-1A fighters in a deal likely to be worth close to Rs.60,000 crores. In September, the new Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman visited 43 Armoured Regiment to get a first hand look at the Arjun tank. A month later, she visited the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment in Chennai where the tank was developed - signals which some say are an indicator that the Arjun main battle tank's best days are yet to come.


-Ankit

manjgu
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby manjgu » 09 Jan 2018 12:09

ramana..i meant bribe babus and/or ministers ... didnt mean babus only. the biggest cut goes to ministers only. babus are mere facilitators... PSU's cant bribe ... pvt sector can bribe...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 09 Jan 2018 12:52

A-2 looks monstrously heavy with its dozer blades,etc. Anyway,one is sure that an order will be forthcoming from the MOD to motivate those engaged in desi AV designing,with the FMBT-whatever it is being called now,on the cards in the next decade. The only Q being how many A-2s can the IA afford.

The DRDO should really be the equiv. of the US's skunk works and other labs,engaged in developing tech.and weapon systems and well funded by the GOI. Their primary job is to design and develop indigenous weapon systems,etc. at least equal to the best of the west/east at lower cost within a specified timeframe.Once they've been developed and perfected,they should go to DPSUs and in future pvt. sector entities who can deliver, who will specialise in production tech and speedy production thanks to capable management .Given that the DRDO will be attempting to develop new tech and venture into the unknown,it will be v.difficult to pin them down to definite timetables.If within a specified timeframe the results aren't positive,then the alternative -getting the same from abroad either in a JV or outright purchase must take over,so that the services get their weaponry on time.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby uddu » 09 Jan 2018 13:39

Philip wrote:A-2 looks monstrously heavy with its dozer blades,etc.

Absolutely. Just like how Khali is in this video. And will make mincemeat of any tank opposing it, just like this video. :D

We have heard lot of arguments from people like you about how Arjun is heavier and T-90 can be faster etc. That's like saying laloo being small can outrun Khali. :rotfl:

nam
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 09 Jan 2018 17:36

Indranil wrote:DRDO is non-revenue based. How do you suggest that it proactively develop products without funding?


It is OT, however i will mention few things

DRDO can monetise it's tech, after all it is the premier R&D center.

Production house(DPSU & fully Indian owned Private entities) can take over tech and in return pay for the tech. Else these companies can pay DRDO to create non-RFP based variations and the companies can then sell these to services.

There could be resources funded by DPSU/Private entity to be contracted in to DRDO to work on projects of interest to these companies. DRDO now has the ecosystem and it needs to be used by our companies.

Ofcourse not all projects can be funded adequately by individual companies. DRDO needs to ask GoI for some proactive projects. We now have the base, so we are not starting from scratch or re-inventing the wheel. Annual budget of DRDO 2.3 billion. GoI can easily allocate 200-300 million for proactive projects.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 22:04

Philip, All money comes from GOI. The sham is saying it comes from each service and thus UPA managed to ensure nothing gets bought.
I think slowly realization is dawning that Arjun tank is lethal and is needed if they want to win battles.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 09 Jan 2018 22:21

Thakur_B wrote:Just wait till the product finishes development and the laser designator, sight window and mantle get proper armor modules.


Have we got any pics showing any changes in sight placement - it seems this is indeed the final product.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 09 Jan 2018 22:44


Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2018 00:52

Thanks Rohit and Ramana! :)

Image

Some more stuff:
2nd round is the 120 mm HESH
Good catch by Rv on the Israeli round, so we still have decent stocks in service
The 4th and 5th are the APERS/HEAT rounds used by T-series
The 6th round is a REFLEKS!
Last edited by ramana on 10 Jan 2018 00:59, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added img tags to make the image visible.

Cain Marko
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Jan 2018 02:43

Thakur_B wrote:
shaun wrote:Image


Just wait till the product finishes development and the laser designator, sight window and mantle get proper armor modules.


Dayyum reminds me of... :shock: :twisted:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/tra ... 0612150818

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 02:54

Karan M wrote:Thanks Rohit and Ramana! :)

Image

Some more stuff:
2nd round is the 120 mm HESH
Good catch by Rv on the Israeli round, so we still have decent stocks in service
The 4th and 5th are the APERS/HEAT rounds used by T-series
The 6th round is a REFLEKS!

Can clearly see how much longer Arjun rounds are compared with the T-series rounds.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 05:08

Stories like these must be promoted to reach the masses ...

Vishnu Som's NDTV story:
Cut Hard, Cut Deep: Arjun Tanks In Action

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Thakur_B » 10 Jan 2018 06:59

Karan M wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Just wait till the product finishes development and the laser designator, sight window and mantle get proper armor modules.


Have we got any pics showing any changes in sight placement - it seems this is indeed the final product.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tFh6xR7UQtE/Tsz3VFG_XdI/AAAAAAAAB_8/cFEuW7RmUCs/s1600/Arjun%2BMk%2BII%2Bgraphic.jpg

This early render from drdo poster shows armor module in symmetrical shaping on mantle and under sight. The laser dsignator module has been shaped since then.

Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2018 00:14

I wish they had removed that frontal sight and put it elsewhere to load up even more armor front of the sight, but seems it is a deliberate choice. The frontal sight is under armor protection and protected from top attack, i.e. arty rounds, splinters etc. Looks like they have more armor modules behind the sight like in Leo2A4.

Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 05:11

https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/the-buc ... ion-476190

12:38 - In the frontal 60 degree arc, the armor can defeat any KE round existing in the world.

Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 05:14

80-85% hit probability of the gun.

Mobility - repeats each and every point made by BRF

Sarvatra handles weight well

Every point made on BR has been vindicated

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2018 05:26

^^^
All DRDO vehicle bridges nowadays are rated MLC-70.


Some anti-Arjun people are still stuck with data from 20-year ago. No excuse.

To prove a point, DRDO demonstrated to all during Defense Expo ;)

Karan M
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 13:25

It just amazes me the Col of the regiment backs up each and every point we have made on BRF, and the feeling is great.

Its one thing to have pulled together all this information from disparate sources & put together the story (e.g. on CPS + FCS combining to form a hunter killer arrangement as I had pointed out) & then to see each and every point we have made being emphasised by the actual user of the system!

All the Arjun debates we've had with folks who counseled us about the virtues of proven imports & how the Arjun lacked this, that.. and here is the actual user from 43AR openly supporting each and every point we have made on BRF, regarding weight and mobility, armor, fire control.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 13:43

srai wrote:All DRDO vehicle bridges nowadays are rated MLC-70. Some anti-Arjun people are still stuck with data from 20-year ago. No excuse

Engineering Regiments have huge inventory of old bridges and it will take 30-40 years to replace them with MLC70 bridges.

Having said that, the process has started since Agni, Pinaka, Smerch, 155 mm guns, TCR radars, Akash etc and especially their ammo resupply trucks (missiles, rockets, shells) weigh more than older ones.

There is a cost but instead of only Arjun it is getting distributed with Agni, Pinaka etc.

Obviously a set of MLC-70 bridges completing development at DRDO and entering production doesn't mean every bridge in the inventory of the fourth largest army in the world magically becoming MLC-70 overnight.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 12 Jan 2018 14:26

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:All DRDO vehicle bridges nowadays are rated MLC-70. Some anti-Arjun people are still stuck with data from 20-year ago. No excuse

Engineering Regiments have huge inventory of old bridges and it will take 30-40 years to replace them with MLC70 bridges.
.


We may be still having some 0.303 gun ammunition (forget about 5.56 INSAS) so we should not go for any new gun till all the old ammunition is used up.

I is very disheartening when some Army folks coem up with rather absurd reasons for not buying Arjun MBT

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2018 18:18

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:All DRDO vehicle bridges nowadays are rated MLC-70. Some anti-Arjun people are still stuck with data from 20-year ago. No excuse

Engineering Regiments have huge inventory of old bridges and it will take 30-40 years to replace them with MLC70 bridges.

Having said that, the process has started since Agni, Pinaka, Smerch, 155 mm guns, TCR radars, Akash etc and especially their ammo resupply trucks (missiles, rockets, shells) weigh more than older ones.

There is a cost but instead of only Arjun it is getting distributed with Agni, Pinaka etc.

Obviously a set of MLC-70 bridges completing development at DRDO and entering production doesn't mean every bridge in the inventory of the fourth largest army in the world magically becoming MLC-70 overnight.

Doesn’t have to be overnight or all of it for that matter. These have been around for a while now. Get them to the Arjun deployed areas in the quantities required. Where there is will there is a way! Simple as that.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby marimuthu » 12 Jan 2018 19:57

If you want to do it, you can find 1000 ways for it. If you don't want to do it, you can find 1000 reasons for it.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2018 20:10

It is going to be v.hard to dump A-2 now that the improvements required by the IA have been effected and strenuous efforts been made to ensure ease of transportation by road/rail and bridging eqpt. In terms of performance the IA appears to have little issue earlier also.

The sticky points were support and spares (A-1),due to the % of foreign content and weight- now apparelnty resolved as cited above.The only other point that the IA could bring forward is cost.This to me in the ultimate analysis will determine its fate, how many A-2s that the IA can afford.As a larger tank and with one crew member more it will obviously cost more and operational/ manpower costs as well.

Nevertheless, Indian efforts over decades must be rewarded, especially if we are serious about indigenisation and reducing our import bill.There is ample space for Arjun in the IA's inventory, order of battle and used as the spearhead , the sledgehammer ( the Great Kali, as one happy member has suggested!) to smash through enemy defences so that the larger number , thousands of T-series MBTs in the inventory will pour through.This was the Sov. tactic planned against NATO forces, using their heavier tanks to breakthrough for the mass of their lighter more mobile armour to swiftly penetrate enemy territory and reach their objectives.

The FMBT is going to take at least a decade of R&D to arrive.Therefore , A-2 which is available after decades of effort,could be manufactured until the futuristic MBT arrives.From earlier reports the IA has obtained approval for approx 400 more T-90s to be bought , I think with most built in Russia ,due to prod. inability -large backlog of existing upgrade and T-90 manufacture/work.Even at a pedestrian rate of 50 A-2 MBTs/yr we should be able to manufacture 500 A-2s in a decade's time , which would then be replaced by the future MBT.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shaun » 12 Jan 2018 22:01

even the crew helmets (mk2) with integrated headphones looks tfta in the above video. 8)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 22:22

Kersi wrote:We may be still having some 0.303 gun ammunition...

The 0.303 ammo doesn't have to cross obstacles on its own unlike tanks and other vehicles.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 12 Jan 2018 22:23

Philip wrote:It is going to be v.hard to dump A-2 now that the improvements required by the IA have been effected and strenuous efforts been made to ensure ease of transportation by road/rail and bridging eqpt.


'Dump' ???

Philip wrote:The FMBT is going to take at least a decade of R&D to arrive.Therefore , A-2 which is available after decades of effort,could be manufactured until the futuristic MBT arrives.


Not until. Even after. And hopefully we will probably be exporting variants of them as well!

Philip wrote:Even at a pedestrian rate of 50 A-2 MBTs/yr we should be able to manufacture 500 A-2s in a decade's time , which would then be replaced by the future MBT.


Do you really think the IA is going to replace a MBT within 10 years (by which time it will have matured even more and have a better logistics chain), by a new unproven one?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 22:28

srai wrote:Get them to the Arjun deployed areas in the quantities required.


As I mentioned earlier, the bridging and engineering suppport added to capex that now has been amortised over other systems. With that happening, the cost of Arjun induction has been brought down. So this actually will lead to more Arjun being inducted.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby shaun » 12 Jan 2018 22:29

In vishnu som video , the CO of 43AR while talking about mobility , fire power & protection of Arjun compared it with Abrams , Leopards & Merkava ...no tin cans :rotfl:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2018 22:39

Not replacing Arjun or T-90s, we have around 2000 T-72s which will need to be replaced, particularly those which are not being upgraded.Come 2030 even some of the T-90s will be needing false teeth!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 13 Jan 2018 04:36

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:Get them to the Arjun deployed areas in the quantities required.


As I mentioned earlier, the bridging and engineering suppport added to capex that now has been amortised over other systems. With that happening, the cost of Arjun induction has been brought down. So this actually will lead to more Arjun being inducted.

In the meanwhile, Arjun production line has been sitting idle for over 5-years now. They could have produced some 250 Arjun Mk.1 in that time frame (@50/year capacity that was attained). But not to be all in the name of bridging equipment being "too expensive" :roll:

More inducted in future? There is order intent only for 118 Arjun Mk.2. As we all know, Mk.2 has been given the run around so production of it still some years away. Let the hard-earned production ecosystem for an indigenous product rot away.

In comparison, T-90 (defects & all) has been enjoying a continuous license production run in India. 400 more have been ordered.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 05:40

No fratricide.
Tsarkar is saying what we all are saying.


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