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MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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Vivek K
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Vivek K » 30 Oct 2017 07:07

You forgot to add roosi for yondoos!!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 30 Oct 2017 12:19

May I 'umbly suggest a new acronym? Instead of TOT we should instead ask for "TIT"! "Technology India-specific Transferred".That will keep everyone happy.The firangis will send us what they think we should have (second rate),we will definitely get technology that we should be able to handle (not cutting edge),and the babus can rest assured that they can close their files with a smile, "TITs recd."! Everyone can then dance to the tune of "Tits,tits,tits,more tits please..."

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 30 Oct 2017 16:03

:rotfl:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Khalsa » 31 Oct 2017 00:03

Does that include Russians too Phillip ? I am not trolling you.
Genuinely asking ..... what benefit as the Indian industry recieved by manufacturing Mig-21 and T-72.
Our Arjun and Tejas are not being purchased in high numbers.

Where are we going wrong ?
Note: I am not a fan of F-16 Make in India either Phillip.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Aditya G » 31 Oct 2017 00:27

Gagan wrote:The great news is that India is building bridges that will withstand the weight of the Arjun.
The problem is that Pakistan is not improving the quality of its bridges...

Hopefully with CPEC they'll do that...


We finally know why IA wont buy the Arjun! :(( :mrgreen:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 02 Nov 2017 05:23

https://twitter.com/sjha1618/status/925667659798126592 --> Development of a 1500 HP MBT engine was sanctioned in December 2013 for around Rs 400 crores. It is an ongoing project.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 02 Nov 2017 06:58

This is the 1500 HP engine mentioned above.
Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 07:45

MIG-21 acquisition and production back then was at Cold War friendship prices from the SU. It enabled us to build and improve hundreds of contemporary fighters at low cost, giving the IAF the sqd. stregth it needed.Same with T-72 tanks.However,the decision to dump the HF-24 prog. was a v.detrimental move as it could've replaced sev.types of legacy types like Vamps,Mysteres,Hunters too ,giving us two major types,the MIGs for the interceptor role and the HFs for the fighter-bomber role.We could've even asked Russia to provide us with engines for the HF-24! There would've been then no need for the SU-7,if the HF-24 had been pursued.The little Gnats could've remained in prod. as low-cost light fighters but no trainer version was built,really inexplicable.We instead bought Polish Iskras.

At that time there was little talk of kickbacks,etc. either.I feel both the IAF and HAL were v.v.shortsighted as well as the MOD.They took the easy way out with screwdriver tech. Had we pursued and succeeded with the HF-24 or even later HF-73 proposal, the LCA would've been inducted a decade ago and we wouldn't have bought the Jaguar too.The T-72s also a friendship deal,giving us a good MBT at low cost.At that time also remember v.little was available from the west at high cost, unlike Sov.prices,
plus Pak was acquiring Mirages from France,later F-16s from the US and tanks,arty too from its "rich uncle".

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Gagan » 02 Nov 2017 08:52

Programs like the HF-24 are not scuttled so simply.
There must have been pressures from the Soviet Union to do so. They must have been afraid that India will start manufacturing its own planes.
Further if there was a pro-soviet tilt, then western help must have not been forthcoming, and engines and ensured supply of spares might have become difficult

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 02 Nov 2017 16:24

Just picked this up.Ignore the hype but there's lots of intersting stuff about Ru MBT philosophy,etc. Interview with the Dy.CEO of UralVagonzavad,Russia's mega tank manufacturer.

From Terminator to combat systems of the future: Main advantages of Russia’s armor armada

Military & Defense November 01, 19:36 UTC+3
Uralvagonzavod's deputy CEO has briefed TASS on progress achieved in the work under the 2017 state defense order and some details of upgrading the T-90M, T-72B3 and T-80BVM tanks

T-90M tank at Zapad-2017 drills© Anton Novoderzhkin/TASS
Russia’s sole manufacturer of tanks for the country’s Armed Forces – research and industrial corporation Uralvagonzavod (UVZ, an affiliate of Rostec) - is about to complete ahead of time its work under state defense order to provide a batch of upgraded T-72B3 main battle tanks. Last summer the UVZ concluded a number of major contracts for providing T-90M and T-80BVM tanks and the newest tank support combat vehicles nicknamed Terminator. More about the unique features of these vehicles, their combat potential and details of upgrading armored vehicles, as well as combat systems of the future – in this TASS interview with UVZ Deputy CEO for Special Vehicles, Vyacheslav Khalitov.

Tank contracts
As he dwelt on the state defense orders the UVZ worked on for the past few years, Khalitov said the results achieved, such as the value, quantity and variety, were basically the same. The UVZ upgrades T-72 and T-80 tanks and manufactures a variety of configurations of the T-90 tank. In 2015 the UVZ unveiled the T-14 tank and BMP T-15 mechanized infantry combat vehicle on the newest tracked platform Armata. Also, the corporation makes self-propelled howitzers Msta-S, tank support combat vehicles Terminator and other vehicles on tracked tank chassis.
In 2017 we signed contracts for new vehicles – the tank support combat vehicle Terminator and upgraded tanks T-90, which are to be produced serially. Alongside this we will start upgrading the T-80 tank. It is a new large-scale project
UVZ Deputy CEO Vyacheslav KhalitovZoom In

© Uralvagonzavod's press service
Khalitov says the corporation sticks to a quarterly system of providing the whole variety of weapons and military equipment on offer. “Already now one can say that more than 70% of the equipment ordered has been delivered to the Armed Forces. Some of the contracts, for instance, those for T-72B3 tanks, were accomplished ahead of time.”

READ ALSO
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Russian Defense Ministry prepares modernized T-80BVM tank for trials — official
Russian Defense Ministry to get 100 Armata tanks

Also, Khalitov remarked that the UVZ had achieved a steady production schedule. “In other words, there are no ups and downs. We have long-term contracts with the Defense Ministry, which keep our enterprises busy day in day out. This enables us to run our business in a stable way and to address issues concerning cooperation with the providers of raw materials and components. The advantages of doing business this way are many. “The work load does not change. It has been even for years. This guarantees sustainable development. Next year is going to be the same: the order books have been finalized and practically all contracts have been signed,” Khalitov said.
In 2018 the UVZ will continue to provide upgraded T-72B3 tanks, self-propelled artillery pieces 2S19M2 and other weapons we have traditionally made for years. Contracts for the BMPT Terminator, T-90M and T-80 are the new entries on the list of our products

Combat bolide
T-72B3 is one of the most common tanks in service in Russia and other countries that participate in the Tank Biathlon contest. The vehicle has undergone fundamental upgrade to obtain up-to-date parameters in terms of mobility (a more powerful engine) and protection (extra protection components for the turret, lateral surfaces and the bottom). The tanks are equipped with an advanced round-the-clock system of fire control and digital means of communication.
T-72B3 tanksZoom In

Khalitov believes that the vehicle has a very good upgrade potential, so it is too early to say that the T-72 has approached the limit of perfection. Tank engineering these days widely relies on the modular design concept. Know-hows and materials continue to be improved, which allows for maintaining the tank’s parameters at the required level, without fundamental design changes and in accordance with the customers’ requests.
We develop and replace the tanks’ modules thereby considerably improving their military and technical performance. There is a special parameter used for contrasting earlier and later configurations of this or that vehicle and comparing them with foreign counterparts. As far as the T72B3 tank is concerned, the parameter of the first T-72 tanks is equal to 1 (one), while that of T72B3 is close to 2 (two)

All of the tank’s main combat systems have been upgraded. “Its firepower has been enhanced. Now the tank has a highly automated system of fire control, the gunner’s multi-channel sight Sosna, automatic target-tracking device, an advanced 125-mm gun and higher yield ammunition, lateral screens Relikt, and a kit of extra protection for use in combat in urban areas,” Khalitov said.
Greater mobility is another key feature. The tank now boasts a higher capacity power plant. “You can see that for yourself when you watch Tank Biathlon contests. The vehicle has no equals in either speed or other characteristics,” Khalitov said. As for command and control functions, the tank is equipped with a jamming-resistant digital radio station.
About the cost-effectiveness ratio. In other words, greater combat effectiveness is achieved at lower costs. We invest less but get a better vehicle, something that cannot be said about foreign tanks. Their share of investment is far greater, while combat effectiveness is no higher. This a fundamental distinguishing feature of our vehicles

The world's most legendary tanks
Khalitov believes that T-72B3 is popular not only with the Russian military, but is in great demand from other customers as well. Military specialists sometimes call it a bolide. At this point, he points out, a great deal begins to depend on the skills of the crew.
“Our crews are great. If the personnel has been trained properly, the vehicle tuned up and all required preparations for firing and driving have been made, and if the personnel has good command of the equipment and knows how to us it, the result will be more than guaranteed,” he says.
All promised characteristics are confirmed in real combat. This is most important. Take today’s Syria or other armed conflicts. This tank has demonstrated the highest reliability, firepower effectiveness and degree of protection. This combination of factors makes the tank a legend

Khalitov points out that in upgrading the T-72, T-90 and T-80 tanks the corporation seeks to use a comprehensive approach.
“We are systemic in our work on the T-80 tank. We take the same upgrade measures we applied to the T-72B3. This concerns firepower, degree of protection and some elements crucial to the vehicle’s mobility. The T-80BVM has retained its serial gas turbine engine, but has undergone certain changes, too. Its fuel consumption has been down,” he said.
The main customer has set the task of unifying our work. It will make no sense to stage useless experiments by replacing guns, power plants and other components. It is essential to squeeze the maximum out of the vehicle’s basic configuration. The more so, since the T-80 and the T-72 have a good upgrade potential

'Flying Breakthrough'
The new T-90M (R&D project Proryv-3, literally meaning Breakthrough-3) is another cutting-edge product from the UVZ. It is 25 years since the moment the first model of the T-90 tank was authorized for service. Many great changes have been carried out since. If you take a look at the T-90M, you will see that it is a dramatically new vehicle meeting the modern requirements in terms of firepower, protection, viability, mobility and controllability.
It is a fundamental upgrade project based on advanced technologies. There has been created a new combat module boasting a highly automated system of fire control. The characteristics of the 2A46 gun have been considerably improved. Advanced types of ammunition are used

T-90MZoom In

The T-90 is often called a “flying tank.” This capability was repeatedly demonstrated at different shows, where the tank successfully negotiated a special jump ramp.
The unique running gear is capable of coping with a great dynamic impact. The driver and all other crew members feel quite comfortable. They are prepared to conduct fire while performing this trick, literally in flight. This is convincing proof the crew are capable of coping with combat tasks despite high-G effects

The T-90M has achieved a qualitatively new level of effectiveness of using its weaponry. For instance, the commander and the gunner enjoy the same capabilities to search for potential targets, which allows for operating the fire control system in a highly effective combined “hunter-gunner” mode.
The commander transfers the target the automatic tracking system has locked on to the gunner together with all other information available, including the range and other data. All the gunner will have to do is to select the type of ammunition and hit the target. I should say this is a very important target elimination procedure. It can be likened to the operation of an assembly line. It is a reality
Vyacheslav Khalitov

First armored army in west Russia receives modernized T-72B3 tanks
Russia's Armata main battle tank protected from any existing shells
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Russia signs large contract on delivery of T-90MS main battle tanks to Middle East

The tank possesses a higher level of protection in contrast to the T-90. It has a new modular dynamic protection feature, which enhances the tank’s resistibility to the impact of modern means of attack. Moreover, it is far easier to maintain and repair.
As far as the command and control features are concerned, the tank has a computerized system of interaction within an automated tactical level system (army Internet).

Khalitov says T-90M is the first vehicle that widely uses digital technologies, including the fire control system. “There have already appeared some elements of artificial intelligence,” he says.
The driver’s display shows full information about the condition of all systems responsible for the vehicle’s mobility
Vyacheslav Khalitov
UVZ Deputy CEO
The ergonomic features of the T-90M have been fundamentally reworked. “There’s a system of air conditioning, a diesel generator that keeps all of the tank’s electronic systems operational independently from the main power plant, a system of outside observation and many others.”
The vehicle possesses a great export potential. You know that the corporation is the world’s leading exporter of tanks. Upgrade is the next development phase. Today we offer our main clients an upgraded configuration of T-90 – T-90MS

Many experts and foreign mass media have repeatedly compared the T-90 and Abrams (the United States’ main battle tank – TASS). However, the UVZ believes that saying which one is better is rather difficult, because they are products of different schools of engineering and design and their original concept and purpose was different.
“Whereas the T-90 was conceived as a breakthrough weapon, Abrams was designed as an anti-tank means for confronting Soviet-made armor. Progress in engineering goes on. Today they are very different vehicles capable of matching the current requirements,” analysts say.
These days several types of main battle tanks are available on the international market, but not a single foreign tank is equal in sales to Russia’s T-90.
Whenever this or that country points to the T-90 or the T-72 as the main battle tank of choice, its decision is a very telling sign. It indicates that the foreign customer has conducted thorough analysis and evaluation and arrived at an unambiguous conclusion these vehicles are far better than their foreign counterparts by the main parameters. Some features may be slightly worse, but on the aggregate these tanks are better. The cost-effectiveness ratio is one of the key parameters. In a word, we offer a product of the same or better quality at a lower price, which is very important for the customer

'Fear effect' and combat systems of the future
Last summer it was announced that a new type of armored vehicle – BMPT Terminator had begun to be provided for the Russian Armed Forces. It was presented as a yet-unparalleled piece of military hardware. The Defense Ministry made a decision to purchase the first batch of Terminators. In the longer term the vehicle may be either upgraded or reconfigured further to better suit customer requirements. There is a possibility its successor may be developed for the tracked mount Armata.

BMPT Terminator Zoom In
cle emerged on the basis of experience of ground operations in Afghanistan and other conflicts.
I would say that the idea was proposed still earlier, when it became obvious that a great variety of anti-tank weapons became available and they had to be countered in some way and eliminated effectively and promptly. It was then that the image of a highly-protected vehicle capable of fighting against these anti-tank weapons started taking shape

The conflict in Syria provided fresh arguments in favor of creating such a vehicle.
READ ALSO

Russian army to get bulk of Terminator armored vehicles in 2018
“The tank support combat vehicle is protected no worse than any other tank. Its multiple weapon systems have a far greater firepower and are capable of hitting several targets in different directions simultaneously. This is very important. The Defense Ministry made a decision in favor of its purchase,” Khalitov said.
The tank support combat vehicle BMPT owes its unofficial name Terminator to its formidable look and the ability to fire several weapons simultaneously at targets situated at different ranges and at different angles. Continued fire and its high rate literally suppress and demoralize the enemy in the whole territory under attack. “This produces a fear effect. Nobody dares to look up.”
In order to change the vision of its likely uses we often call it not a tank support combat vehicle but a fire support combat vehicle. It can be used as an integral part of armor or mechanized infantry units or independently, which is very important

Khalitov says the Terminator can be used independently within mechanized infantry units or anti-terror units, or in combination with tanks “as part of an armor module equipped with multi-channel armaments.”
It is inexpedient to make an all-purpose machine capable of hitting any targets, because it would be too difficult to operate. It is necessary to create combat groups incorporating vehicles meant for different purposes and performing different functions. This would produce a synergetic effect. I have already described this. It will be a combat system of the future. The ideology of building a modern combat system needs revision

What is most important, though, says Khalitov, is that the BMPT Terminator is in demand and the need for it on the battlefield has been confirmed.
Robots and the 'Dagger'
Uralvagonzavod corporation is the leading designer of equipment for the ground forces. It is the largest provider under the state defense order as well. Khalitov says the UVZ provides more than 100 ground vehicle systems. The UVZ makes finished products and robot parts and components.
For instance, this concerns the automatic performance of certain processes in order to rule out or ease the effects of the human factor in the man-machine relationship

Development of new machines of the future is one of the promising areas of activity. Among them are the unified platform Armata, self-propelled artillery system Koalitsiya, articulated tracked armored personnel carrier Arktika and some others. Experimental products were on display at a special demonstration for selected visitors at the Army-2017 weapons show.
“The Arctic is one of the lines of research into new vehicles. Also, we upgrade the existing vehicles and constantly address our customers with various upgrade options,” says Khalitov.
None of our projects goes into the dustbin. All projects we launch always materialize as experimental products. We have repeatedly demonstrated that at many exhibitions. The 57-mm combat module Kinzhal (Dagger) is an example. It is a real product. It has undergone almost all tests and is ready for being installed on a chassis. It is a highly effective combat module. We are prepared to discuss it with any potential customer
Vyacheslav Khalitov
UVZ Deputy CEO
More:
http://tass.com/defense/973723

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 02 Nov 2017 16:59

The above post would have been better placed in the Russian Weapons thread..

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 03 Nov 2017 00:13

Not really Its good to know what is the philosophy of the main Arjun competitor in India.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 03 Nov 2017 13:36

In continuation of the study,here is another report of an M-1 Abrams ,destroyed by an unknown ATGM in Iraq.Ck the link for v-clips.

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/201710 ... a-missile/
WATCH Iraqi Abrams Tank Destroyed by Kurds, Possibly With a Chinese MissileCC0
OPINION
17:18 27.10.2017
Debates are under way to clarify what weapon was used to hit an Iraqi army tank in the country's Kirkuk province.
In an article published by the website War is Boring, US expert Robert Beckhusen has claimed that the M1A1 Abrams tank could be obliterated by Kurdish Peshmerga fighters using a Chinese-made HJ-8 "Red Arrow" anti-tank missile.

Earlier, Peshmerga published a video showing a burnt-out tank which the Iraqi military suggested could have been destroyed with a German-made wire-guided MILAN anti-tank missile launcher.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 03 Nov 2017 13:44

Right. I suppose the Leo, Merkava and others are to follow...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 04 Nov 2017 01:11

Chinese Red Arrow HJ-8 is a TOW/MIlan equivalent ATGM.
Yes there are reports of an M-1 being destroyed.
Reportedly it did not have the ERA.

Also HJ-8 is now made in Pakistan.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 04 Nov 2017 03:03

Weren't there old reports of Pak handing over TOW missiles to China for copying?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2017 06:54

CVRDE has already started working on Arjun MkII Alpha. The first two tenders for weight reduction that I have seen is to change:

1. Changing the four external toolboxes (two on turret and two on hull) from high-density steel to high-strength aluminium.
2. Changing the Driver's, Loader's, Commander's and emergency crew escape latches from armour steel to composite. The latter will be made of proprietary ballistic grade ceramic tiles and aramid fibres/ S glass fibre covered by steel sheet.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 07 Nov 2017 07:08

These seem like the turn around could be quite quick!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2017 09:43

Approx.how much do they hope to reduce the weight by?
Those small reductions won't reduce it by the tons expected.Why a 3-man crew+ auto-loader concept gives around 10t less.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2017 18:16

The Mk2 Mark A is obviously an incremental approach. The FMBT is the more comprehensive approach.

The three man + autoloader is not a silver bullet.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2017 20:17

Agreed,but it makes the MBT smaller and lighter.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 07 Nov 2017 20:59

Philip wrote:Approx.how much do they hope to reduce the weight by?
Those small reductions won't reduce it by the tons expected.Why a 3-man crew+ auto-loader concept gives around 10t less.

From the news reports, the IA had wanted 1.5t reduction on Mk.2. Note: That 1.5t is the additional weight of mine trawler attachment. But it seems the IA wanted total weight to be inclusive of the attachment.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 07 Nov 2017 21:02

Philip wrote:Agreed,but it makes the MBT smaller and lighter.


FMBT will be that.

Image

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 07 Nov 2017 22:53

srai wrote:
Philip wrote:Agreed,but it makes the MBT smaller and lighter.
FMBT will be that.


What is the target weight range envisioned for the FMBT?

JSDF Type-10 50T or lower would be a good target.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 07 Nov 2017 23:50

srai wrote:
Philip wrote:Approx.how much do they hope to reduce the weight by?
Those small reductions won't reduce it by the tons expected.Why a 3-man crew+ auto-loader concept gives around 10t less.

From the news reports, the IA had wanted 1.5t reduction on Mk.2. Note: That 1.5t is the additional weight of mine trawler attachment. But it seems the IA wanted total weight to be inclusive of the attachment.


They want every Arjun to have that tank trawl attachment? Why not 15 tanks in a regiment i.e. 1/3 And have the trawl as field replaceable item?
Surviving a kinetic round requires mass. This weight reduction with composites will end up bad. Al boxes catch fire easily.

Philip, 3 man and auto loader means total redesign. We want only bathwater thrown. Not the baby.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 08 Nov 2017 00:53

ramana wrote:Al boxes catch fire easily.


Yeah, that was my concern, but they are replacing boxes outside. So even if they do catch fire, the insides will be well protected. Maybe DRDO-IA combo has thought this through!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2017 02:08

The Al boxes are ammo boxes.
So if they catch fire the rounds cook off and lead to fratricide.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kakkaji » 08 Nov 2017 03:19

Seems like, in the name of improvements, they are tying up the Arjun project in knots - to the point where it is being slowly throttled to death. :x

From what I have read in military literature, it is usually one tank in a squadron that has trawlers/ flails that clears the path through a minefield, while the other tanks in the squadron follow that path.

Does the T-90 have trawlers on every tank?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Cybaru » 08 Nov 2017 03:41

ramana wrote:The Al boxes are ammo boxes.
So if they catch fire the rounds cook off and lead to fratricide.


Ah ok. Hope they rethink it.. What else can they remake it with instead of aluminium?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2017 03:53

Indranil wrote:The Mk2 Mark A is obviously an incremental approach. The FMBT is the more comprehensive approach.

The three man + autoloader is not a silver bullet.

Just thought I'd post a link to Rohitvats' blog post about APFSDS rounds and the drawbacks faced with an autoloader as opposed to without one.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.com/2013/11/i ... io-ke.html

It is a very comprehensive explanation of the differences between one-piece ammo (Arjun and western tanks) and two-piece ammo (used in tincans) and difference in performance. Kinda tells you why the Invar missile is so important for tincans.

The autoloader causes other design challenges as well like how to store the ammo safely with blowout panels without using too much space (and reducing ammo carried), 3 crew members having to do all repair work instead of 4 etc.
Last edited by nachiket on 08 Nov 2017 04:00, edited 1 time in total.

nachiket
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2017 03:58

BTW, this weight reduction requirement is yet another wild goose chase that the DRDO is being sent on. If the required weight reduction is achieved the Army will be ready with another list of changes. We will never see another order for Arjuns, whether it be Mk1,2,3 whatever.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Nov 2017 05:23

^^^

All this for a measly order of 118 units :roll:

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ramana » 08 Nov 2017 05:43

Yes. Really not a serious buyer.

Why can the trawl be fitted on a few of the tanks and not all the tanks?

Does the T90 come with a mine trawl fitted all the time?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2017 05:45

ramana wrote:Yes. Really not a serious buyer.

Why can the trawl be fitted on a few of the tanks and not all the tanks?

Does the T90 come with a mine trawl fitted all the time?

No tank anywhere comes fitted with a mine trawl 100% of the time. They are merely searching for reasons to avoid buying Arjuns. Calculating total weight by including mine trawl weight is very useful in that regard.

I blame the GOI for this though (both current admin and previous one). They can put a stop to this nonsense very easily by making it crystal clear that no more foreign tanks will be bought (or built in India). The Army can buy the Arjun or work with the DRDO on a new tank or make do with what they have.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srai » 08 Nov 2017 08:14

Re-posting a video from few years ago:

Arjun MBT Mk.1


KaranM wrote:1)Amazing video. Confirms all the data about MK1 including hit pk against various mobile, static targets when Arjun is moving and static. 90% Pk achieved. World class standard - Arjun at 25 km/hr versus target at same speed.
At 8:41 you can see the test methods employed, a moving Arjun hitting a moving target in the sand, they have put a target on rails in the distance behind the dunes, simple yet effective! While static targets are tanks themselves.

2) 10:29, what a suspension!!
At 8:53, see the turret top. On the lefthand top, u can see the new Commanders Sight. It has a CCD/TV, TI and LRF. At 9:57, u can see it rotating. This was intended for the MK2 and has now been integrated and is clearly working well. Further on in the video u can see the images from it.
From 12:33 on, provides a very good view into the detailed systems.
At 12:33 the gunner manipulating his joystick to move the IGMS sight & position the gun, which follows the sight.

3)The commanders new 360 degree sight is also shown, at several times in the video, it clearly has a very high resolution TV color TV camera/CCD sensor, the latest gen TI, and also a LRF! First views of this versatile device. Believe an Indian firm played a role in its development. This is likely a prototype of the Arjun MK2!!

4)At 12:38, Drivers compartment shows a color LCD panel with all the vehicle information on it. You can see the electronic gearbox and the large yoke used to slew the tank, (akin to a steering wheel). This is also an Arjun MK1 feature.
At 12:39 you can see the modernized FCS, with the yellow ballistic control computer marked "console" and a dial to select various kinds of ammo. Usually used to enter ballistic data for different rounds.

5)NBC panel clearly shown at 12:42
Just chk out the clarity of the viewing screen plus the TV sensor at 12:49. Since the tank is operating buttoned up, the video panel bezels are all lit up in blue (nice). This is either a feed from the Gunners day sight or the new Commanders sight.

6)At 12:52, you can see the amount of space the Arjun has inside. A big plus over the cramped, claustrophobic T-series tanks! The equipment is all carefully positioned not to hit the crew.Also, provides a good look at the efforts put into separate crew from ammunition.

7)14:59 check out the detailed containerization of each round, separated from the other, plus the heavy covers with locking handles. This makes this tank a huge step above and beyond the firetrap T-72 and T-90s which have around 27 rounds of ammunition exposed and hanging around in either open clamps, in the fighting compartment and beside the driver. Note the tank is an Arjun MK-1 as shown in the very next frame as it fires!

8)The open hatch with black lining within is likely Kevlar, to prevent spall! As the tank fires, Natarajan (often credited as the father of the Arjun tank) says 13 rounds were on target after gun zeroing as versus 8 from the Army requirement post GZ, shows importance of training.
15:34 onwards and several points during the documentary, u have the simulators shown. These are the DRDO simulators developed along with MACMET and clearly full motion sims, networked along with all the other crew sims.

9)ERA shown in the video is clearly ERA MK-1 designed for protection primarily against ATGMs.
From 17:00 on. These are on the T-72 upgrades. The video also shows a Milan warhead tested against ERA MK-1 in the HEMRL test facility. Pretty much seems to have degraded the effect of the warhead entirely, with only a small hole in the base armor.
And also against a tank, with a suspended warhead. Amazing and shows how far DRDO has come, the design validation process ...

10)...and how the nearby module is completely immune to sympathetic detonation. And hence proof against even small arms fire and splinters, which is a big plus for infantry beside the tank. Mentions that the ERA (MK-2) designed for the Arjun is for penalty of only 1.5T.
MK2, this is at 3:28
Early on, you have a lady working on a CAD image of the MK2.
Again shown at 21:12, shows the new smoke grenade launcher layout as well, and with the new mine plough. This too appears to be a new design.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 08 Nov 2017 13:54

The FMBT or whatever the new nomenclature is,must be planned to replace all legacy T-series tanks in the inventory,beginning with the T-72 upgrades.
With increased automation,and the Armata modular concept with us,we need to look again at our concepts.A 4-crew Arjun MK-2 belongs to the 20th century,not the 21st.The dawn of Terminator style robotic tanks is almost with us.All out T-series MBTs are being uprgraded with improvements mainly from desi eqpt.Another 430+ T-90s ordered sometime ago as well. Upgrades to both T-72s and T-90s are being done at Chennai,with much desi eqpt. esp. from the pvt. sector.Media this morning had afeature on a southern co. called Pricol which has mastered the art of manufacturing a T-series dashboard and supplying critical def. eqpt. to various cos. Arjun MK-2 needs a patron as the many rectifications to T-series MBTs need to be equated with those demanded ,the infamous "73" whatever for the A-2 that the IA has called for.

The OFB comes out as the prime suspect in why Indian is importing critically reqd. Ru ammo.OFB ammo sub-std. for the T-series,therefore the Ru buy,but "later on the OFB will manufacture the same" But what guarantee is there from the wretched OFB that they will be successful later on? Eventually,we;ll be paying 2-3 times the cots of ammo tx. to the sub-std. OFB ammo which incidentally has been the cause of barrel bursts sin our arty too.
The GOI MUST put a stop to the sole monopoly of the OFB for desi manufactured ammo,and open it up to the pvt. sector.Along with that decision,the sacking of those responsible for the disgraceful performance of the OFB reg. ammo. Heads must roll.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 08 Nov 2017 14:47

nachiket wrote:The autoloader causes other design challenges as well like how to store the ammo safely with blowout panels without using too much space (and reducing ammo carried), 3 crew members having to do all repair work instead of 4 etc.


Came across this fascinating set of to-and-fro discussion on quora about pros and cons of manual vs auto loaders. Link

Some real good points (including the one you mentioned) covered by few posters, some of whom claim to be Israeli and US ex-Tankers.

My fave quote is the one from the Brit ex-Challenger guy : "Auto loaders can’t make tea" :D

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 08 Nov 2017 16:35

Bl**dy expensive to accomodate a chaiwallah! The tank has to be 20-25% larger,heavier,etc. not to mention the same % of extra cost. The problem is western philosophy and eastern/Russian.That's why as Ramana's excellent post on what happened in WW2,is why the finicky Germans lost the war.They just could not match Russian tank production and extra numbers on the battlefield because they kept repeatedly trying to improve models on the prod. line instead of mass producing a variant. The battlefield isn't primarily a repair yard for broken down tanks! Sov. philisophy was that if an engine had problems quickly replace it rather than try and repair it,which could be retrieved by ARVs and better done at the rear or back at the nearest workshop/maintenance centre. The eqpt. on modern tanks is far more sophisticated than on legacy 20th cent. MBTs.Designs are more modular in all weapon systems,"pull out push in" the attitude of the day.A US naval technician (female) on a carrier once explained to me how every for almost every aircraft mission software modules were changed.

Take a look at this excellent article on the T-90,how the US must learn a few lessons from Russia's simpliicity of design,etc. Read it in full in the link.

What America Can Learn From Russia's Cheap But Deadly T90 Tank
https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/what- ... 1540829820
Xcpt:
Could it be that we actually have a lot to learn from Russia's "balanced approach" to fielding the T-90 Main Battle Tank? I think so, but don't take my opinion for it, take WWII's! This conflict taught us a very valuable lesson about tank warfare and force structure in general: in a serious peer state conflict, with prolonged hostilities, the numerical advantage can triumph over technological superiority.

Just google "Panzer vs Sherman tank" to learn more about this valuable history lesson. It is amazing that Russia seems to have remembered such a hard fought lesson from what they call "The Great Patriotic War," and have factored it into their procurement strategy, but America seems to have all but forgotten it. The capable, affordable and reliable T-90 main battle tank remains direct proof of this fact.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 08 Nov 2017 20:16

Philip wrote:in WW2,is why the finicky Germans lost the war.They just could not match Russian tank production and extra numbers on the battlefield


True but somewhat incomplete... The Germans could not match Russian + American + british tank production. Nor could they overcome the disadvantage of fighting on the Russian home ground (vast as it was) with their own logistical lines completely strained (and in the later stages getting their industrial production getting bombed to hell on the other front).

If numerical advantage overpowers other parameters then the dlaglon has got us beat eh?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Philip » 09 Nov 2017 05:19

Terrain ,thanks to the Almighty prevents the dragon from rushing in with large numbers of MBTs through the Himalayas ,why they"re fielding only light tanks in the mountains. The overwhelming superiority we need is mainly against Pak in Jammu, Poonjab and the desert terrain further south.


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