MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 24 Sep 2017 08:57

The thread is back

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Sep 2017 09:17

There is nothing like the personal experience of seeing a thing with own eyes. Now that she has seen Arjun and quite surely heard its users speak about it, she can now hopefully take an informed decision when the demand of more T90s is made. From the press reports, such demand is being made.

Prithwiraj · Post by **Prithwiraj** » 24 Sep 2017 11:33

Are those Jypsey chairs retrofitted like a chariot for Mantriji? She needs to be careful with her saree.. i know Pratibhaji took a ride in Su30MKI.. was she wearing a saree and a pressure suit?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 24 Sep 2017 11:40

What gypsy chair ?

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Sep 2017 15:08

The olive camo seats kept on top of Arjun turret?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Sep 2017 15:38

What about the prospective order of 700 tin cans in replacement of the T 55's. Unless the DM changes the order in favour of the Arjun, I don't see any changes in the luck of Arjun.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 24 Sep 2017 16:03

Female Defence minister is the ultimate SHQ
https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictio ... sary/s/shq

Check out the encircled SHQ sign on the side just under the DM

chola · Post by **chola** » 24 Sep 2017 16:50

AdityaM wrote:Female Defence minister is the ultimate SHQ
https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictio ... sary/s/shq

Check out the encircled SHQ sign on the side just under the DM

LOL. Climbing up the Arjun wearing a saree gets my admiration.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 24 Sep 2017 19:17

there are only few things now i think can lead to orders of arjun
1. Great offensive by DRDO, something taking arjun on delhi streets in peak office hours showing the capacity
2. one line directive to order from Modi or RM
3. some grahashanti yagya, or some gemstone on cannon etc
4. Pak/China getting M1A1 type tanks from Aliens
5. huge losses of armour in a war/conflict
although the third can certainly help first two..

nam · Post by **nam** » 24 Sep 2017 19:25

Armour probably is not the priority, compared to say Attack helicopter.

So money is probably going towards chopper.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 24 Sep 2017 19:46

But if we are purchasing, then we may take Arjun now. The chances have increased somewhat after her visit.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Sep 2017 10:46

Modi has not launched any major NEW infrastructure or high end R&D push. He has made minor tweaks to earlier policies which collapsed due to corruption in UPA2. I don't see any actual orders for Arjun 2, max some promises for future orders. Army will order 600 more T90 and keep DRDO busy with FMBT carrot.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 25 Sep 2017 10:51

MII efforts in defence is a major push. In artillery, we have major initiatives going on. This was a major problem on the way to the rectification. LCA MK1A orders were already given. Large work is going on Missile front. These things take time also.

Let us hope that the new order will not go for T90s and Arjuns will be purchased.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Sep 2017 12:45

We've had years of debate about MBTs for the IA.The simple truth is that CVRDE/Avadi have their hands full of orders and cannot deliver on time with exg. prod. and upgrade orders of all types.Let them rectify their prod./quality constraints first and establish a reliable supply chain for Arjun 1/2 before embarking upon new orders. The IA's priorities may have undergone a dramatic change post Doklam. We suddenly see the need for light tanks to counter the Chin light tanks introduced. Establishing the 2 MSCs is critical and massive funding is also needed for the BRO ,where only 25% of the planned infrastructure (entire budget spent already!) along the border. In the Indo-Pak MBT/AV equation,we are much healthier than the Pakis,both in qty. and quality. It is in the arty. dept. where we suffer a crisis. NO arty. orders post Bofors barring the light howitzer acq. from BAE/US ,but even those trials went kaput when a barrel burst now officially due to defective (OFB) ammo. Arty numbers beefed up on a war footing is a greater req.,esp. as we are witnessing daily arty duels with the PA.The desi ATGS is an unqualified success with its recent world record for range.We then have the SoKo/L&T partnership for the SP arty. req. All these systems will be locally built,benefiting the "make in India mantra".

Therefore,increasing the efficiency of Avadi and our AV plants,in executing/.delivering exg. orders,plus speeding up the arty. deals with firang JVs as well as the ATGS "desi Bofors",is the way forward. LTs and the FMBT must also be on the anvil in the R&D/dev. phase.The IA must look to its priorities and budget to see where extra new MBTs fit in and of what affordable type.Assuming that A-2 has met the grade,the IA must in the interest of promoting local substituion,give its nod towards another batch of A-2s. I don't think that the GOI will deny such a request too,which will encourage the DRDO to swiftly develop the FMBT/whatever..

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 25 Sep 2017 13:32

What supply chain when there are no orders?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Sep 2017 18:11

A-1 supply chain in hand? The same for A-2!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 25 Sep 2017 21:18

What are you talking about? How can you build a supply chain for the A1? How and his many were ordered? What was the indent/ long term planning for MBTs in the IA?

Marten · Post by **Marten** » 25 Sep 2017 21:34

Philip wrote:A-1 supply chain in hand? The same for A-2!

Someone in your profession certainly understands long lead items very very well. Why then are you ignoring this lead time, scale and related costs? Without orders, which supplier is going to maintain stock for you? For any item that costs 5-10cr, imagine the fuss. Please, Sir, one does expect better understanding of logistics from you.

Will · Post by **Will** » 26 Sep 2017 13:49

I wonder whether the new DM will be able to shove 500 Arjun Mk II's down the IA's throat.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 26 Sep 2017 22:28

There we go again - our venerable posters shamelessly placing conditions to make sure the Arjun remains a lab rat. Supply chain for 50 tanks??

Mera Bharat Mahaan!

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 26 Sep 2017 22:48

shiv wrote: If you break up a tank into parts you could get
1. Body armour: made in India
2. Gun - possibly made in India
3. Engine - imported, built under license
4. Transmission: imported
5. Tracks - Indian
6. Wheels: Indian
7. Basic instruments and sensors - Indian
8. IR viewer, gun aiming system, electronics for slaving gun to gunsight, gun stabilization servo controls - probably imported (don't know)
9. Seats, upholstery - Indian
10. Air conditioning Indian
11. Radio/comm - possibly Indian
12. Countermeasures/munitions: partly Indian/partly imported?

If the above list is accurate then the Arjun is a disaster. Some of the most critical, difficult to make, difficult to design and failure prone stuff is imported. How can you stock up spares if you don't know how many will fail

DRDO should have focused on a parallel engine/transmission from the outset itself. The priority should have been
1. Indigenization
2. Maintainability

which are critical to warfighting. Any bells and whistles which would have gone into Mk2 should have come much later. Whats the point of all this fancy stuff when the vehicle cannot move in case of a breakdown.

Also I dont get this whole 40T bridge weight limit of Pakistan bridges. Isnt it Indian Army Engineering divisions job to build temp bridges for vehicle crossover. Are we depending on the Pakistan bridge contractor to invade Pakistan?

How can we be assured that their bridge will stand up to T-90? So all it takes to prevent an Indian onslaught is for them to blow up a bridge or a shoddy contractor? Do the Pakistanis know this or else why waste all this money on Nasr and stuff?

The best the govt can do to revive this project is to buy a 100 Abrahms and donate it to Pakistan as a sign of goodwill. Hopefully, then the "external threat perception" for IA will change.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 27 Sep 2017 21:58

Boss
a) Why should DRDO make engines when IA is not willing to even give the Arjun a chance? Can you develop engines for an order of 50 units?
b) A 40 Ton bridge does not break the first time a heavier load crosses it. Indian public goods carriers are probably carrying heavier loads than rated capacities on "every Indian bridge" even today. This is just a way to keep Arjun out of service nothing else. And if you're a Civil Engineer - the fact that the "ground pressure" of the Arjun is less than that of the T-90 should tell you a lot. The IA will not buy the Arjun - period! It is a dabba good only for boys with toys!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 27 Sep 2017 22:27

Vivek sahab,

1. A ~~civil engineer~~ class XI student will tell you that ground pressure and load are not the same thing.
2. But you would be happy to know that DRDO is close to that 1500 hp engine.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 27 Sep 2017 22:49

Shiv, if you read CAG/PAC reports, you will realise that thousands of crores have been spent on setting up manufacturing plant for components of semi indigenous T-72/90. If such orders and funds were given to Arjun, it would have much higher indigenous %

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 28 Sep 2017 00:46

Indranil wrote:Vivek sahab,

1. A ~~civil engineer~~ class XI student will tell you that ground pressure and load are not the same thing.

Was about to type the above and saw your post

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 10 Oct 2017 02:36

So if the Arjun was built as per the army GSQR how did the Press and MoD let the army get away with it? Do we have reporters here in BR who can interview (harass) the army including retired Army officers and DRDO personal involved in Arjun? A few enterprising journalists can start to bring about pressure on the army.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 10 Oct 2017 04:39

It is not the goal of BRF to pressurize Army, IAF, IN into anything. We are just a bunch of jingoes.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 10 Oct 2017 23:36

Indranil wrote:Vivek sahab,

1. A ~~civil engineer~~ class XI student will tell you that ground pressure and load are not the same thing.
2. But you would be happy to know that DRDO is close to that 1500 hp engine.

Your point being?

Load - the statement was that failure is caused through fatigue- apologize if it was not clearly expressed. But tell me - do you think that if you exceed the structural capacity of a structure the first time that the structure would break? Additionally, Civil Engineers build in factors of safety into everything - from bearing capacity, to structural strength of each individual member etc. Therefore to know the true in-service (as-built) capacity of a structure one would need to do an evaluation (which may turn up much higher results than designed). The designed capacity is a guide.

Pressure - The lower ground pressure would allow the Arjun to operate in desert sands in places where the T-90 cannot.

So what did you understand from my post? One of the problems we (Indians) have in general discussions is our professional arrogance and belief in our infallibility. I like to learn in every situation and would be willing to be taught like a Class XI student (where one's knowledge and learning level is at a tremendous high).

My point was - the IA/DGMF have raised the issue of bridges (which BTW would be quite old now and would need to be replaced or repaired anyway) not being able to carry the load. And this is a red herring. Loads carried on Indian transports is quite often in excess of allowable values and truckers (as I recall) bribe the weigh bridges to show normal loads. Therefore keeping the Arjun out of service because of its weight (which per IA impacts ability to be transported over bridges and ability to fight in desert - WITHOUT taking into account its lower Ground pressure for the LATTER situation). I hope that is clearer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2017 05:12

US Army it seems has version of the M1 which is more survivable and has better communications. It retains the same gun, and tank engine.
They have already received 30 tanks and expect a total run of 1000 tanks.

However they don't call it M1A3. Its a long number M1SVPA3(?)

Maybe the Arjun can be upgraded like this.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 11 Oct 2017 08:22

Mk3 development without putting Mk1 into service?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2017 00:11

Is there a table to compare Arjun Mk1 and Mark II?
Any list of the 93 plus improvements that the IA desired?
Sorry if this was already posted here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_(tank)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Oct 2017 09:53

Ramana,your link reg. tank warfare philosophy WW2 coudl perhaps be reposted here,as it explains a lot about a user's attitude. With Arjun,are we adopting the German route? The fact remains though that there is little enthu for the beast from the IA. One feels that there is a significant cost factor here (between A and the T series) which the IA perhaps trots out every time the pressure from the CVRDE on the MOD is felt.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 17 Oct 2017 13:06

Ramana sir. I have been looking for the compartive list for a long time too but have not found it. Will be really interesting to see it (a major portion would be classified though)

Here are some mentioned in an article

A DRDO scientist who spoke to Defense News would not comment on the Army's modification proposals, but did say the Arjun Mk-2 is "ready for induction," has a total of 93 upgrades including 13 major improvements and "will fully meet the needs of the Indian Army."

The major changes to the Arjun Mk-2 include an upgrade of the missile-firing capability against long-range targets, panoramic sight with night vision to effectively engage targets at night, containerized ammunition, enhanced main-weapon penetration, additional ammunition types, explosive-reactive armor, an advanced air-defense gun to engage helicopters, a mine plow, an advanced land navigation system and a warning system that can fire smoke grenades to confuse laser guidance.

Other major points would be improved engine, lower weight.

Some other articles also mentioned better fording ability, self-diagonostic suite, improved battle management system

Also below is the list of the 19 major modifications/improvements mentioned in an article on Broadsword (dated November 2011)

1. Missile firing capability
2. Commander’s TI panoramic sight Mk II
3. Driver’s uncooled thermal imaging night sight
4. Additional ammunition (don’t ask… won’t tell!)
5. Enhanced ammunition penetrator
6. Effective alternative to muzzle reference sight (MRS)
7. Resin-based CCC
8. Ten-round containerised bin
9. Explosive reactive armour panels
10. Infra-red/Thermal imaging resistant paint
11. Air defence weapon remote firing
12. ALWCS (advanced laser warning and countermeasure system)
13. Roof mounted driver’s seat
14. ATT in GMS (gunner’s main sight)
15. Advanced land navigation system
16. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
17. Advanced running gear system
18. New track system
19. Mine plough

nirav · Post by **nirav** » 17 Oct 2017 17:52

While I have put in a request to get a perma ban,I will take this opportunity to make the one last post.

Indranil wrote:It is not the goal of BRF to pressurize Army, IAF, IN into anything. We are just a bunch of jingoes.

Well, what *is* the goal of BR ?
I did point out that we are a bunch of jingoes.
Fanbois is the exact word.

All hell broke loose on me for saying that.

The post by samiwdiw is the exact thing I was talking about. the need to change the narrative.

We have enough lefty loons hating on the forces.
With the generally accepted position on BR, of important pasand lobbies existing in the forces, the forum unintentionally is peddling a false narrative wrt the forces and their procurement.

Do we want a whole bunch of "nationalist jingoes" to hate on the forces as well?

It's said you can't learn swimming by reading a book.
We certainly have a huge amount of 'seniors' who know *everything* military related by reading forums/brochures.

I was lucky enough to bump into a Twitter conversation very recently on the Arjun tank, and there too we had a br poster telling an ex army person that IA will lose cause of preference for the T90 over the Arjun.

"Ahead of the curve" ?

I see sweeping changes in BR re - GD.
It's still not too late to reassess what BR stands for in the current form and if there is scope for improvement.

It's something to think about.
People getting outraged when I call BRs members fanbois, but no outrage when same guys including a mod implying forces and posters as "import pasand".

And yes, I was called a Paki because I tried to understand the rationale behind the imports and put forward my points of view for discussion,of which there was none. More interest was in seeing me banned anyhow.

The mod responsible for the section sat and sucked his thumb when it all went down in the Paki thread.

Anyway, I wish BR the best.
Over and out.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 Oct 2017 20:27

It seems, Arjun's time has arrived and its vanvas is over .... may the Deepawali arrive soon!!

PS: Mixing the two epics .... but context is perfect.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2017 20:44

RKumar wrote:It seems, Arjun's time has arrived and its vanvas is over .... may the Deepawali arrive soon!!

PS: Mixing the two epics .... but context is perfect.

I got the feeling too. Lets see after seeing the ARRV.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2017 20:53

1) Philip and Singha read this

http://www.historynet.com/profiles-cold ... -tanks.htm

2)

Philip wrote:Ramana, an excellent read. The word "cost-effective" being the reason why Germany lost the tank war, stands out. Their "bespoke" style of tank production cost them the war. The Soviet "expendable" tanks/parts philosophy after studying the lifespan of tanks on the battlefield dramatically brought down both costs and prod. time. The US simply threw as much money as it could at the problem, huge orders bringing down costs, etc.

This is a fundamental that the 3 services should embrace as their first rule when seeking a weapon system its "cost-effectiveness". Using the same platforms for various purposes continued during the Cold War too. For ex., the same dunking sonar of the KA-28 was on the Pauk ASW corvettes. Same hull for Pauks and tarantula missile corvettes. The IN and CG would do well to employ such a philosophy as we have so many naval/CG vessels of almost the same dpl.,but with different hulls, etc. The IAF in its search for extra aircraft should study this article carefully, as well s our project heads of the LCA!

3)

Rupak wrote:
ramana wrote:Philip and Singha read this

http://www.historynet.com/profiles-cold ... -tanks.htm
Ramana,
Thanks for sharing. The German philosophy was very evident in the design of the HF-24, which I've heard from more than one source entailed a very complex manufacturing process when compared to the Gnat and MiG-21.

Tsarkar maybe able to shed more light, but I've also heard from people at GRSE and MDL that the Indian Navy's changing design requirements adds to time taken by yards and deliver and also leads to large cost overruns. I've never understood why the Navy can't standardize on a single OPV or XFAC design.

Philip and Rupak, Also look at business strategy. Southwest Airlines in US has only one plane it its fleet B-737 which simplifies the entire logistics chain: engines, spare parts etc. so that their planes are more in the air than in hangers.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Oct 2017 20:56

RKumar wrote:It seems, Arjun's time has arrived and its vanvas is over .... may the Deepawali arrive soon!!

PS: Mixing the two epics .... but context is perfect.

Don't count on it. The bullheadedness of the tin can lovers knows no bound's.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2017 20:57

nirav, Thanks for the feedback.

You can always not log in. Or change password and forget it.

You won't be banned.
No need for martyr approach.

Lets talk in Feedback thread.

And you can also unfollow me on Twitter.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Oct 2017 21:00

Pratyush wrote:
RKumar wrote:It seems, Arjun's time has arrived and its vanvas is over .... may the Deepawali arrive soon!!

PS: Mixing the two epics .... but context is perfect.
Don't count on it. ~~The bullheadedness of the tin can lovers knows no bound's~~.

Its possible we are not seeing their viewpoint.
The war they see is not the same one DRDO saw when it designed the Arjun.
And there was passive oversight from DRDO, IA and MoD and the politicians.