MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

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prasannasimha
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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby prasannasimha » 25 Jul 2018 14:49

This was done and tge Germans I think also put a blackbox for thr engine.Proof of tampering was shown to the relevant people.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 25 Jul 2018 14:52

^^^ Holy shit. This is true? There are people willing to sabotage a national project to favor a phoren competitor?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 25 Jul 2018 15:42

That's an old story. You will probably get the gory details in the old threads (might have been archived now) on Indian Armour, if you search with the appropriate keywords.

(It was one of the many reasons why i had requested, and was granted permission, to start a separate thread for Arjun).

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2018 15:55

IIRC it was the renk transmission of arjun that was tampered with.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 25 Jul 2018 15:56

Manish_P wrote:That's an old story. You will probably get the gory details in the old threads (might have been archived now) on Indian Armour, if you search with the appropriate keywords.

(It was one of the many reasons why i had requested, and was granted permission, to start a separate thread for Arjun).


I can find nothing in the archives with a keyword search.

Briefly, is it true?

I recall the T-90 trials were hurriedly done in under 6 months with the tank failing on multiple grounds and yet it was declared Passed and quickly put into production. It faced little/no scrutiny unlike the Arjun.

To suggest conspiracy however would require collusion at a high level by multiple entities which is hard (but not impossible) to believe.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 25 Jul 2018 16:33

Neshant wrote:
Briefly, is it true?



You can do a google search.. with the query 'Arjun Tank' + 'Sabotage' + 'Bharat Rakshak Forums'

Be prepared though, to wade through multiple pages of points and counter-points.

Lot of thick, fast, heated discussions during that tense period. Only time i think a Tank moved faster than a plane :D

Unfortunately there were quiet a few temporary and permanent Bans issued. BRF lost some real good knowledgeable posters.. :(

Here is one of the posts (there were earlier more detailed ones as well, which i can't find now) -

viewtopic.php?t=5530&start=3800

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 25 Jul 2018 16:46

Rahul M wrote:IIRC it was the renk transmission of arjun that was tampered with.


Indeed, sir. The 'suspected' tampering with transmission was one of the main issue. And there were 1-2 more issues suspected.

Also IIRC you were one of the saner (and logical) voices during those times.

I may be wrong, but i think you were a Mod at that time also and you alongwith the other Mods had your hands full dealing with a lot of passionate and roused posters, some of whom still continue to generate high temperatures on some threads, especially when it concerns Russian equipment :)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ArjunPandit » 25 Jul 2018 22:24

^^IIRC, CAG reports also pointed out different standards for Arjun v/s T90

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby VKumar » 25 Jul 2018 23:32

chola wrote:^^^ Holy shit. This is true? There are people willing to sabotage a national project to favor a phoren competitor?


Wasn't the design head of Arjun 'killed in a road accident' in Rajasthan, when a truck hit the car he was travelling in? He was going for Arjun trials, I believe.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RoyG » 26 Jul 2018 00:08

rkhanna wrote:I read an incredible thing on Reddit.

During Trials the Arjun used to get "sabotaged" so often that DRDO had to eventually install a black box like device to moniter the Tanks. any credence to this?!!


I'm not sure if tampering was often but it was caught. You have to understand that people who want T-72BM to be the main battle tank of IA could care less about the soldiers inside of it. They are more into the whole aesthetic appeal of it or $ in the form of kick banks. There are a few of these retards that pollute this thread as well. They will create every bizarre excuse and regurgitate it over and over again until it drowns out every sane voice. That doesn't just go for tanks, it goes for every tender involving procurement of major military hardware. Thats how I know these people have some sort of mental sickness or they have some stake in keeping us forever begging the Russians. luckily, there are signs that russian rot is clearing up in defence. If we want to be strong we will have to produce most things in house and ditch these russkie phuckers in a big way. There is no alternative.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2018 00:44

RoyG wrote:I'm not sure if tampering was often but it was caught. You have to understand that people who want T-72BM to be the main battle tank of IA could care less about the soldiers inside of it. They are more into the whole aesthetic appeal of it or $ in the form of kick banks.


If this is directed at IA command who made the decision to go with T90, then it is a ill informed comment. Like most of the members here I would wish Arjun to be inducted, however after years of these argument, I fully support IA's choice to go with T90.

It took me years to understand, war is not fought with shiny toys, which may or may not come. It is a simple case of a bird in hand is better than two in the bushes!

If I was given a choice for the defense of the nation, of Arjun from a "don't give s*** other than my pay" OFB versus less capable T90 from Russians, who have a history of mass producing tanks .. I would any day go with T90.

IA can be criticized, not having a plan for indigenous platform induction, atleast in form of FMBT. However given everything else, tanks are not a priority.

Having said that, IA has the next best thing. T90 has Indian armour, gun, probably ammo as well, ERA, wheels etc. We are now even producing the engine in-house and have upgraded the T72 engine.

All the work on Arjun has now allowed us Indianised the T90. It just has a different shape from Arjun!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 03:14

chola wrote:^^^ Holy shit. This is true? There are people willing to sabotage a national project to favor a phoren competitor?

I am surprised that you are surprised? :-o

Import lobby exists in full swing. But you cannot say anything. Self avowed rakshaks are present on BRF to beat down any notion of criticism of armed forces personnel. Excuses range from ignorance about the procurement process to no respect for armed forces personnel. But imports must continue.

How the Army can continue with a tin can, when you have a perfectly good and functioning Arjun MBT is beyond me. Every excuse - too wide for bridges, too heavy, unreliable, too expensive, etc, etc, etc. - given to date, has been countered with facts. The last I read on the saga...

Big New Hurdle For India’s Arjun Battle Tank
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... -tank.html

The Indian Army wants the DRDO to fully redesign the Arjun Mk.II’s hull and turret structures and use newer materials to replace the conventional structure, in an effort to ‘achieve a reasonable reduction in weight, without removing any of the major improvements’.

Now the latest tamasha is FMBT which has been written for the T-14 Armata.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2018 07:43

VKumar wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Holy shit. This is true? There are people willing to sabotage a national project to favor a phoren competitor?


Wasn't the design head of Arjun 'killed in a road accident' in Rajasthan, when a truck hit the car he was travelling in? He was going for Arjun trials, I believe.


My god. I need to find this story.

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Holy shit. This is true? There are people willing to sabotage a national project to favor a phoren competitor?

I am surprised that you are surprised? :-o

Import lobby exists in full swing. But you cannot say anything. Self avowed rakshaks are present on BRF to beat down any notion of criticism of armed forces personnel. Excuses range from ignorance about the procurement process to no respect for armed forces personnel. But imports must continue.

How the Army can continue with a tin can, when you have a perfectly good and functioning Arjun MBT is beyond me. Every excuse - too wide for bridges, too heavy, unreliable, too expensive, etc, etc, etc. - given to date, has been countered with facts. The last I read on the saga...

Big New Hurdle For India’s Arjun Battle Tank
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... -tank.html

The Indian Army wants the DRDO to fully redesign the Arjun Mk.II’s hull and turret structures and use newer materials to replace the conventional structure, in an effort to ‘achieve a reasonable reduction in weight, without removing any of the major improvements’.

Now the latest tamasha is FMBT which has been written for the T-14 Armata.

I exaggerated my disbelief partly in jest, Admiral Saar. Of course, I knew there were people who “sabotaged” our local programs with lies and biased opinions but I am surprised at real physical acts of sabotage and possibly murder?!

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 26 Jul 2018 08:42

Rakesh wrote:Big New Hurdle For India’s Arjun Battle Tank
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/03 ... -tank.html

The Indian Army wants the DRDO to fully redesign the Arjun Mk.II’s hull and turret structures and use newer materials to replace the conventional structure, in an effort to ‘achieve a reasonable reduction in weight, without removing any of the major improvements’.


Where are the requirements engineering documents which state what the weight and cost of the tank should be?

Surely this must have been documented and signed off by both parties (developer & end user) BEFORE this project got underway decades ago!

The Ministry of Defense (or whomever) is tasked with overseeing the project must be totally incompetent at running a policy framework and enforcing a development methodology.

This can't go on as a 100 year tank project!

The tank needs to be killed or a culling of the upper level management is needed.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Pratyush » 26 Jul 2018 09:07

Neshant, this is yet another example of shifting the goal posts for the program. The 6 as per my count since the inception of the program.

The correct thing to do would have been to initiate a new project every time the army brought in requirements that would completely change the tank from what it is.

But for reasons best known to the powers that be they try to execute it within the same program.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 09:39

chola wrote:I exaggerated my disbelief partly in jest, Admiral Saar. Of course, I knew there were people who “sabotaged” our local programs with lies and biased opinions but I am surprised at real physical acts of sabotage and possibly murder?!

To be very honest, I am hearing about the murder angle for the first time.

But the story of physical acts of sabotage is true. That is what surprised me, that you did not know that. There are people in India, who do not want to see the Arjun in large numbers. The Russian lobby is very strong in the Armoured Corps.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 09:48

Rahul M wrote:IIRC it was the renk transmission of arjun that was tampered with.

Sabotage suspected in Arjun tank engine
http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report-sa ... ne-1177317

Attempts to sabotage the trials of the Arjun tank have failed after the black box was installed, said authorities. "The German company Renk AG supplying the engines for the Arjun tank stumbled upon the tinkering with its engines after a complaint from the Indian Army that the tank's gear box failed during its winter trials in Pokhran and Mahajan field range," a DRDO official told IANS, speaking on condition of anonymity. "Following this we have installed an instrument similar to the data recorder or black box in aircraft that would record all the information related to the engines," he added. The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this month that the Arjun tank failed to deliver at the just-concluded winter trials. The army said that many improvements had to be carried out before it was satisfied with the tank. After the complaint, engineers from the German company were summoned to have a look at the tank while a special team was sent to Germany.


There was also another report that the tank was purposefully driven in reverse for a significant distance. I do not know how true that is.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Rakesh » 26 Jul 2018 09:56

Another older article from March of this year....yet another excuse!

Army Sits On Arjun Tank Order Over Missile-Firing Capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 26 Jul 2018 10:02

Rakesh wrote:
chola wrote:I exaggerated my disbelief partly in jest, Admiral Saar. Of course, I knew there were people who “sabotaged” our local programs with lies and biased opinions but I am surprised at real physical acts of sabotage and possibly murder?!

To be very honest, I am hearing about the murder angle for the first time.

But the story of physical acts of sabotage is true. That is what surprised me, that you did not know that. There are people in India, who do not want to see the Arjun in large numbers. The Russian lobby is very strong in the Armoured Corps.


Admiral Saar, I missed the original discussion of sabotage which must have occurred inside the hiatus I took to get married and have kids (and also to get away from daily frustration over the LCA.) I still find it hard to comprehend that there are desis who would take risks to sabotage their own nation.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby abhik » 26 Jul 2018 11:16

After following this saga for over a decade I am convinced that our non stop tin can orders at the cost of Arjuns is part of our tribute to Russia. It's got nothing to do with weight, cost etc. And our political leadership does not know or does not care about reducing our reliance on foreign powers.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Picklu » 30 Jul 2018 04:28

Now that we are fully building v92s2 hopefully we will be able to develop our own 1500 hp engine and arjun would be another make in india project. At least i can dream....

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Neshant » 30 Jul 2018 07:12

Arjun = textbook case of bad project management & no oversight.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kersi » 30 Jul 2018 12:31

Neshant wrote:Arjun = textbook case of bad project management & no oversight.


With tongue-in-cheek I say Arjun = Perfect textbook case of how to kill a good product for a also-ran product, for personal gains, read kickbacks.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby srin » 30 Jul 2018 12:40

Neshant wrote:Arjun = textbook case of bad project management & no oversight.


Can you please justify that ?

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 30 Jul 2018 20:08

Picklu wrote:Now that we are fully building v92s2 hopefully we will be able to develop our own 1500 hp engine and arjun would be another make in india project. At least i can dream....

Why not use 1000bhp engine and reduce the size requirements?
We shouldn't need 3 to 4 men crew for future battle tanks. And this is what IA is asking - build around 40-45k ton tanks.

PS: now make IA happy on that front, and the takeaway is 1000 thanks order for 10 years at 100 tanks per year. It starts from Arjun Mk2.
Last edited by SaiK on 30 Jul 2018 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby RoyG » 30 Jul 2018 20:29

<Personal attack deleted. User warned.>

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 30 Jul 2018 21:12

RoyG wrote:
<Personal attack deleted. User warned.>

<edited>
Mod Note: Henceforth, report the post instead of responding to a personal attack.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ParGha » 31 Jul 2018 06:07

The design process is evolutionary, and no one has done such a drastic pivot -- even the Japanese, with their much more advanced industrial base, shaved off only 6 tons between Type 90 (50T) and Type 10 (44T).
Last edited by ParGha on 31 Jul 2018 11:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ks_sachin » 31 Jul 2018 06:49

I think the Arjun should be put to bed. Never the twain shall meet.

Consider the Arjun an INSAS and the t90 galil Ace 52...

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby chola » 01 Aug 2018 16:48

chola wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:^^I doubt the risk of Tank biathlon will be taken by powers that be. There is too much risk involved either ways. If it works then it it's a trouble for IA, for 1000s of T90 can't be wished away and if it doesnt it's an egg on DRDO's face


Yes. I know. I was just hoping.

But I also know that the Arjun is being forced into a slow death with the Catch-22 weight requirements and it needs to showcase itself somehow. The risk of egg on its face is far outweighed by possibility of success.

The IA was left with egg on its face last year anyways by taking the Russki tincans. Why not show them an Indian tank this time around? There are many observers at the International Army Games in Rus, we might get some interest for exports.


What did I say about bringing our tank to the Biathlon and getting some interests for export?

Well the chinis are doing exactly that:

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/08/01/asia/china-army-games-military-intl/index.html

(CNN) China is using a massive international military competition as "a marketing and advertising show" to sell its weapons and military goods, as the country seeks to solidify its place as one of the world's largest arms exporters.
. . .

At the opening ceremony for the army games in Russia, People's Liberation Army tanks, rocket launchers and helicopters were used during live fire sections.

During the Russia portions of the competition, Chinese H-6k bombers, J-10A fighter jets and Type 96B main battle tanks will be on display.


We won’t buy the Arjun but at least give it a chance to be showcased. If not the IA then maybe someone else.

The fear of eggs on our face? chinis had a wheel come off their tank at this very competition and became a joke but they still bring their own equipment and hawk them.

Give the Arjun a f***ing chance. Please.
Last edited by Rakesh on 02 Aug 2018 03:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Chola, please watch your language

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Sep 2018 07:06


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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SSridhar » 13 Sep 2018 08:51

RInfra to deliver parts prototypes for Arjun Mark II ahead of schedule - Ksenia Kondratieva, Business Line
Reliance Infra is planning to deliver prototypes of the hull and turret for the Arjun Mark II main battle tank (MBT) to the Combat Vehicle Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) six month ahead of the deadline. The prototypes are being manufactured at the company’s facility in Silvassa.

RInfra had won the contract to manufacture the prototypes in 2017 through a competitive bidding process. Other bidders included L&T, Bharat Forge, the Mahindras and Godrej.

“We are ready to deliver the hull and turret for the Arjun Mark II MBT six months ahead of schedule,” a Reliance spokesperson told BusinessLine. “This is amongst the first such projects to be awarded to the private sector in India, with the longer-term objective of creating alternative capacities and capabilities.”

The CVRDE has been looking to scale up the manufacturing capacity of Arjun tanks to meet the Army’s requirements. Private sector players were hence considered as an alternative supply line in addition to the Ordnance Factory Board, which has so far been the sole supplier of indigenous components for the MBTs.

Without disclosing the details and size of the CVRDE order bagged by RInfra, sources said the company is targeting an overall opportunity of ₹2,500 crore once mass production starts.

The Defence Acquisition Council gave the green signal for the ₹6,600-crore procurement of 118 Arjun Mark II MBTs to equip two regiments back in 2014. This will be in addition to an earlier order for 124 Arjun Mark I tanks currently manufactured by state-owned Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi, Chennai.

The Mark II version developed by the CVRDE was based on the Army’s recommendations following comparative trials of the Arjun Mark I and Russia’s T-90.

Indigenous components

One of the main requirements, according to experts, was to reduce the weight of the tank as well as incorporate an anti-tank missile firing capability. The weight of Mark II has been reduced to less than 50 tonnes. The updated model has over 90 improvements over the previous version. Also, it largely relies on indigenous components.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby SaiK » 13 Sep 2018 09:07

whoa! please repeat after me and confirm if you're reading the above is same as my eyes reading it. i'm in disbelieve!

The weight of Mark II has been reduced to less than 50 tonnes.


somebody give me a mil camouflage lungi to dance

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Manish_P » 13 Sep 2018 09:24

Arrey but does it have the feature of the crew not sitting in the turret section? :P

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Kashi » 13 Sep 2018 09:25

I am still inclined to believe that it's a typo.

If not then I an too stunned to lift and tuck my lungi for a dance.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Trikaal » 13 Sep 2018 09:52

It is fake news. It has to be! If not, why aren't we ordering 1000+ Mk2s? Why isn't there any hullabaloo in the media? I am too scared to even hope anymore.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2018 10:23

If this news is true, then this would literally be the definition of rising like a phoenix. :)

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby nam » 13 Sep 2018 11:02

It may be less than 60 ton, instead of 50.

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby ashthor » 13 Sep 2018 12:38

Great news on the Arjun front. Hope a follow on order after they are delivered to the army,
Just like the air force looking towards the markII

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Re: MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

Postby Karan M » 13 Sep 2018 13:25

nam wrote:It may be less than 60 ton, instead of 50.


Exactly.. 50 tons from 68.. not happening


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