1965 India Pakistan War: History

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vsunder
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby vsunder » 17 Oct 2019 07:18

ramana wrote:Rohit thanks.

I have a question for you.

In Chapter VI of the 1965 Official War history, there is short description of Maj Gen Niranjan Prasad's plan for 15 Division operations which was different than the Corps plan.
I know he asks for air cover etc but looking at the events turned out what do you think?

I would ask Ravi Rikhye too if I could.

I am getting the feeling that the Lahore was Western Command attack to relieve the pressure on Chamb while the I Corps attack in Sialkot was a Army HQ attack.
So these are two different campaigns.


Ramana: Interestingly a few weeks ago I met a relative of Maj-Gen. Niranjan Prasad. The family seems very upset with how he is remembered since Lt.-Gen Harbaksh Singh had only very negative things to say. It is a fact that Prasad requested he begin his attack a few hours before sunrise to take advantage of the darkness, permission was not given and instead he was asked to attack in the daylight with only a part of his division. The attack not only failed but the attacking force degenerated into chaos and panic. Prasad's jeep with its two stars was captured and is on display in some Paki war museum, there are pictures of it on the Internet. Several of the officers under Prasad were taken prisoner. Harbaksh Singh went to meet Prasad and according to Harbaksh Singh, Prasad himself turned out unshaven and in a state of panic to meet him. Harbaksh relieved him of his command and said something like "shape up man, you look worse than a coolie". Prasad's replacement Maj.-Gen. Mohinder Singh seems to have been awarded a MVC for his subsequent actions leading 15 ID. Mohinder Singh took over command on 9th September.

Perhaps one account of the action around Lahore is Battle of Dograi and Batapore by Brig. Desmond Hayde MVC. who with his 3 Jat was in the thick of it at the Bata Shoe Factory at Batapore(Lahore). I still remember the picture of Hayde towering over a small LBS when LBS went to meet Hayde on the field.

https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Dograi-Ba ... 8181580486

Hayde went on to pen a personal memoir Blood and Steel that was published by Anglo-Ink a small Anglo Indian publishing house based in Chennai. They also specialize in Indian Railway memoirs.

http://www.angloink.com/index.php?route ... duct_id=50

For younger folks this will suffice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Hayde

https://www.thebetterindia.com/163707/a ... ayde-news/

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby rohitvats » 18 Oct 2019 17:13

VSunder, Sir - I had not seen your post before I posted mine. Later I read through your post and realized the mistake!

Coming to the equations themselves, to put it mildly, I'm mathematically challenged to fully comprehend and use these equations. Even though, I really want to.

For sometime now, I've been trying to do a ground-up comparison of own army with Pakistan and China. One of the things I'm trying to study is the organizational structure and its impact.

For example, comparison between a 10 man squad/section in terms of fire-power.

- US Army I think has 09 man section with 2 x fire teams of 4 men each and 9th in Squad Leader. Each fire team has 3 x riflemen (1 rifleman has UBGL) and 1 x GPMG. So, 2 x GPMG, 2 x UBGL and 05 x riflemen.

- Within the Stryker Brigade Combat Team, the above is modified as in 1 x Rifleman has either Javelin ATGM or is a Designated Marksman.

You can see a clear difference in the capability of the two. Using the equations you've mentioned, I assume there's method to arrive at firepower weight of the two and the difference between them.

Using some broad guidelines like above, I hope we can assess the firepower differential between opposing armies.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby vsunder » 18 Oct 2019 18:55

rohitvats wrote:VSunder, Sir - I had not seen your post before I posted mine. Later I read through your post and realized the mistake!

Coming to the equations themselves, to put it mildly, I'm mathematically challenged to fully comprehend and use these equations. Even though, I really want to.

For sometime now, I've been trying to do a ground-up comparison of own army with Pakistan and China. One of the things I'm trying to study is the organizational structure and its impact.

For example, comparison between a 10 man squad/section in terms of fire-power.

- US Army I think has 09 man section with 2 x fire teams of 4 men each and 9th in Squad Leader. Each fire team has 3 x riflemen (1 rifleman has UBGL) and 1 x GPMG. So, 2 x GPMG, 2 x UBGL and 05 x riflemen.

- Within the Stryker Brigade Combat Team, the above is modified as in 1 x Rifleman has either Javelin ATGM or is a Designated Marksman.

You can see a clear difference in the capability of the two. Using the equations you've mentioned, I assume there's method to arrive at firepower weight of the two and the difference between them.

Using some broad guidelines like above, I hope we can assess the firepower differential between opposing armies.


Rohit I suggest we take this offline. I can write up notes that explain things in greater detail than a post and attach MAPLE plots with phase plane pictures, this will help in your understanding. By changing parameters you can see how the plots change on the same picture.
The key point in using mathematical models is yes there is an equation, but the choice of parameters is entirely ours, should I choose the parameter as 7 or 0.9 etc. The choice of the parameter depends on combat effectiveness, tactics, etc etc. There are people at least in the US military establishment who have been thinking about it and surely they have modeled it for the units you refer to. For example a declassified report here apparently shows how to choose parameters that go into the Lanchester equations:

https://apps.dtic.mil/docs/citations/AD0704744

Regarding Dupuy and his collaborators, indeed their models are based on the Lanchester equations( so my hunch was entirely correct) and so I would say the main work is collating the data from various battles D-Day, Salerno etc Indo-Pak war/s and choosing the parameters. Here is an article by someone in the Dupuy institute and using a Lanchester model

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/blog/2018 ... l-warfare/

Again please give me time, as I am buried in two projects. But I will write up the notes in layman's language and explain what the issue is to address your problem. Data like what you are asking killing rates or what we have been referring in a genteel fashion as parameters that go into the Lanchester equations or combat effectiveness parameters etc are probably well-known to the US military establishment like the works ^^^.
It would be important as a first step for you to get the declassified document above and see what methods they use to evaluate the combat effectiveness of units. Then next come the equations which we know everything about. Last comes the actual "solving" the equation and plotting the course of the battle till the end, which we also know how to do, by hand or easier using the appropriate mathematical software MAPLE. So in the three steps to answer your question it is the first step that is key. We can of course put in various values of the parameters and produce all sorts of plots. For example in a theoretical battle between an Indian force and a Pakistani force we can assume the kill rate of the Indian Force is 6 while that of the Pakistani force is 4 and we can analyse the model. Or we can take a kill rate of 10 for India and 3 for Pakistan and analyse the model and each model has to be analysed with different initial force concentrations, say the last one 10:3 with Indian forces numbering 3,000 at the start and Pakistani 1000 etc. so you see we have at least 4 parameters to choose from. The two kill parameters and the two initial strengths of the opposing forces. Out of these the kill parameter choice is the most important and for that we need data to obtain the kill parameters. Ok here is an email id you can send a mail to and I will get in touch with you

yadav.mark@yahoo.com

rgds/-

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Karan M » 18 Oct 2019 19:54

VSunder, please put up the notes here in public so all can learn.

ramana
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2019 05:36

I suggest we put that in a different thread.
i believe rudradev long ago created a simulations thread.
We can re name it and post these there.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby nachiket » 23 Oct 2019 05:43

ramana wrote:I suggest we put that in a different thread.
i believe rudradev long ago created a simulations thread.
We can re name it and post these there.

Is it this one: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6877 ?

I can move it back from the Trash Can if needed.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 23 Oct 2019 10:41

Yes please and rename it Military Simulations and we can move these posts there.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Rohit_K » 24 Oct 2019 09:01

Relevant to 1965 - x-posting from TSPA thread:

Was looking at Google Reviews of Lahore Cantt's structures and saw the local Officers Mess is named "Fateh Khem Karan" :rotfl:

Pic:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Corps ... 74.3697415

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 02 Nov 2019 11:52

ramana wrote:I am posting that picture for it tells us a tale!!!

Image

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 07 Nov 2019 11:56

Ok. MAF Arjan Singh regretted sending Vampires



https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/IN ... Singh.html


In hindsight, I regret that we used the Vampires—they were slow and I realise that it was a mistake. The Pakistanis, on the other hand, had the Sabres, Starfighters and the advanced Miracle radar.


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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Nov 2019 13:58

ramana wrote:Ok. MAF Arjan Singh regretted sending Vampires



https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/IN ... Singh.html


In hindsight, I regret that we used the Vampires—they were slow and I realise that it was a mistake. The Pakistanis, on the other hand, had the Sabres, Starfighters and the advanced Miracle radar.



The problem is I dont think IAF had a say in the acquisition , these were decisions made at the top in 1950's heady days of NAM, when the Indian leadership was debating why not fire the entire Armed forces. When war came in 1962 Politically the leadership funked from using the Air force.

Kudos to the leadership in 1965 who took a firm decision in response to Operation Gibralter and Grand Slam, in 1965 Oragauns and Vampires were obsolete and many of Pilots including some GNat pilots were afraid of the F-104, the only radar equip fighter in the Sub continent, A million salutes to people like Squadron leader Devayya who took on F-104 in hostile territory with a Mystere.

PAF in 1965 had clear superiority thats why people like Rafiqui came and fought dogfights over FAS Adampur. In Feb 2019, May-Jun 1999, Dec 1971 the PAF mainly kept itself well within Paki teritory.

What a difference in those 6 years additional upgraded hunters, 100 odd Mig 21 M's and 100 odd Su-7B's made.

I hope through LCA and MWF can have rapid acquisition like 65-71 alogn with much better weapons to completely outclass the PAF to fight a no contest war.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2019 03:49

Aditya_V wrote:
ramana wrote:Ok. MAF Arjan Singh regretted sending Vampires


The problem is I dont think IAF had a say in the acquisition , these were decisions made at the top in 1950's heady days of NAM, when the Indian leadership was debating why not fire the entire Armed forces. When war came in 1962 Politically the leadership funked from using the Air force.

He isn't saying he regrets India buying them (they were bought much before the war, IIRC before the pakis got Sabres), he regrets using them over Chhamb where three got shot down by the Sabres.

The real problem for the IAF was after that. They could not to use the Vampires again after that because they were hopelessly outclassed. So several squadrons of aircraft became basically unusable on the first day of the war in which the AF was already at a qualitative disadvantage.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2019 04:29

Do we have any details on what happened to all the US TFTA kit on the Patton tanks, that we captured intact?

Did the Soviet's get some for reverse engineering? or we meekly gave them back to the US?

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby nachiket » 08 Nov 2019 04:48

Both the Soviets and the Americans already had better tanks than the M-47/48 Patton by the time of the 1965 war.

The Soviet T-54 was used in the Hungarian revolution in 1956. The Brits got a lucky chance to examine one of them when someone drove one onto the British embassy grounds in Budapest. The Americans saw their detailed report and decided they needed to upgrade the M-48 Patton because it was inferior to the T-54. Thus the M-60 Patton was born.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Nov 2019 10:45

nam wrote:Do we have any details on what happened to all the US TFTA kit on the Patton tanks, that we captured intact?

Did the Soviet's get some for reverse engineering? or we meekly gave them back to the US?


Some were displayed at Patton Nagar and the Finance Ministry wanted to levy Customs duty on the Defense Ministry for illegally imported Battle Tanks- Babdom at its best.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby nam » 08 Nov 2019 15:28

Aditya_V wrote:Some were displayed at Patton Nagar and the Finance Ministry wanted to levy Customs duty on the Defense Ministry for illegally imported Battle Tanks- Babdom at its best.


The tanks themselves being displayed, which I am aware. What happened to the sights, radio, ammo, or even the engine? Did we ever reverse engineer anything?

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Kashi » 08 Nov 2019 16:32

nam wrote:Did we ever reverse engineer anything?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you think for one moment that it is likely?

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Rsatchi » 08 Nov 2019 16:40

Kashi wrote:
nam wrote:Did we ever reverse engineer anything?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Did you think for one moment that it is likely?[/quote]

Are Sir
'Hum usooolu ke pakke hain'
Pretty sure the baboos would have made adequate arrangements for all the said things to be removed neatly packaged and sent back to US of A using 'Goberment' funds onleeee :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby dinesh_kimar » 08 Nov 2019 17:17

^ why reverse engineer the losing tank in battle, hain ji ?

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 10 Nov 2019 00:05

I read many books to understand how and why the Patton got defeated in 1965.

To understand Patton you need to go to M4 Sherman and WWII tank battles. M4 had an inadequate 75mm gun. Only good at close range. So need a longer range gun for Patton. Th 90mm was good at 2000 yards. To take advantage, they put a fire control system from U.S. Navy. Great in trials. First round kill etc. But in battlefield the range advantage was lost. The fire control was complex. Centurion could shoot 3 rounds before Patton got one out.
As to why Centurion 20 pdr was good the answer is in Patton armor.

M4 casualties were due to spalling of armor after a hit. So to reduce crew casualties, the Patton cast turret was of softer steel with high fracture toughness so it doesn't shatter easily. Centurion had flat plate armor with rolled grain in load direction and was better.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby ramana » 11 Nov 2019 08:06

We need to find out
1) the background of decisions on Centurion procurement in the 1950s. How and why it was limited to186 tanks?

2) Next how many M4 Sherman's got up-gunned with the 75 mm CVN 75?

3) And when was the Vijayanta deal signed to make in Avadi?

The gap in 1965 was not enough medium tanks nor enough anti-tank weapons in artillery or infantry.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Postby Sanju » 11 Nov 2019 20:15

Aditya_V wrote:
nam wrote:Do we have any details on what happened to all the US TFTA kit on the Patton tanks, that we captured intact?

Did the Soviet's get some for reverse engineering? or we meekly gave them back to the US?


Some were displayed at Patton Nagar and the Finance Ministry wanted to levy Customs duty on the Defense Ministry for illegally imported Battle Tanks- Babdom at its best.


Aditya_V ji, any source for the highlighted part? Not questioning your assertion, just for my own records. TIA


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