1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Pranam to all the war dead and those injured.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by arijitdas »

Gurus, any good read on why we returned Haji Pir during Tashkent Agreement? a couple of good books would be extremely helpful. Thank you.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

You can read this thread itself. There is an account of how it was given up in Tashkent.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by wig »

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... o-6594957/

Deep thrust in PoK by unsung hero
extracts from the write up by Brigadier Kuldip Singh Kahlon (Retd.)
Lieutenant General Harbakhsh Singh was the General Officer Commanding in Chief (GOC-in-C) of Western Command with HQs at Shimla in 1965 when Major Megh Singh volunteered for the highly risky mission of operating behind the enemy lines.
Meghdoot Force
Lt General Harbakhsh Singh was struck by the enthusiasm of Maj Megh Singh and told him, “If you do well in J&K, I will pin the rank of Lt Col on your shoulders.” The Army Commander then got in touch with Lt Gen Kashmir Singh Katoch, Corps Commander, 15 Corps, at Srinagar and told him, “I am sending Maj Megh Singh to you, he should be given the freedom to choose hardy young soldiers for the combat mission.”

Major Megh Singh, who hailed from Kharian village in Jodhpur, selected warriors from 3 Rajputana Rifles and 3 Rajput Battalion. After a short, intensive guerilla warfare training, he declared his team fit to be launched and thus, on September 1, 1965, was born the Meghdoot Force.
Missions
On 1/2 September the Meghdoot Force infiltrated about 7-8 miles behind enemy lines and blasted the Dwarandi-Bandigopalpur road as a result of which the nallah flowing under the bridge was flooded. It caused a lot of damage to the enemy road communication and affected the flow of traffic. The force was also assigned the task of blowing up an ammunition dump at Kahuta, about 7 miles inside PoK. But on arrival at Kahuta, the force found the ammunition dump empty.

On September 6 and 7, 1965, the Meghdoot Force attacked two formidable enemy pickets Neja Pir and Ari Dhok as complimentary action even as their main target was the Raja locality.

Later, the Army Commander wrote in his war despatches, “In the fitness of things, Megh Singh was accorded the honour of establishing the linkup with 68 Infantry Brigade south of Hajipur. This he did at 0930 hrs on 10 September, 1965”.

Impressed with the spectacular success achieved by Meghdoot Force in accomplishing the assigned tasks deep inside enemy territory, Gen Harbakhsh Singh made good his promise by pinning the Lt Col’s rank on the shoulders of Megh Singh’s uniform in the presence of his Corps Commander on September 16.

After Pakistan’s naked aggression in the Chhamb Sector, the Meghdoot Force, now under the dynamic leadership of Lt Col Megh Singh, shifted its exploits to this most vulnerable war theatre. Its frequent raids in the enemy territory spread chaos and confusion. The most important of these took place on September 19. In the early hours of that day, the Meghdoot raiders quietly pounced on the unsuspecting enemy at Thil, deep inside enemy territory, inflicting severe casualties. Three days later, on September 22, the Meghdoot Force struck again. This time the objective was enemy administrative base at Nathal, 8 miles behind the enemy location. Pakistani troops guarding the base were taken by surprise and fled in terror, suffering 13 casualties.

While returning home on September 22 after many successfully missions, the bravehearts were surrounded by soldiers of the Pakistani post Thuggi. Lt Col Megh Singh and three soldiers were wounded in the fierce hand-to-hand fight that ensued and one soldier was killed.

But Meghdoot Force proved that trained and resolute troops can achieve great success behind the enemy lines. For his exceptional bravery, grit, determination and outstanding devotion to his duty, Lt Col Megh was awarded Vir Chakra by the President.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

Click on link below to read the twitter thread...

https://twitter.com/Maverickmusafir/sta ... 02016?s=20 ---> Field Marshal KM Cariappa, the man who told Pakistan not to release his captured son.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Prasad »

A baki version of how things were on their side - https://criterion-quarterly.com/operati ... -disaster/

From twitter.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/rv_srivatsa/status/ ... 09280?s=20 ---> The battle of Asal Uttar, the world's most devastating tank battle occurred in 1965 and changed the course of the Indo-Pak War. When India struck Pakistan beyond repair - a battle that cost the Pakistan Army.
* PAK - 190 tanks destroyed in 48 hours!
* IND - 10 tanks consequently

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

This is a royal shame.

A Defaced and Broken Grave of a National Hero Tells a Story of Our National Character
http://heritagetimes.in/a-defaced-and-b ... character/
26 Dec 2020
ramana
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:This is a royal shame.

A Defaced and Broken Grave of a National Hero Tells a Story of Our National Character
http://heritagetimes.in/a-defaced-and-b ... character/
26 Dec 2020

Where was this defacement? Not clear.
Many writers in their passion don't highlight where things happen!
ramana
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

That blown turret was hit by a large explosive shell not 20 pdr or RCL as those are AP and produce holes.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

One question I always had about 1965 war? Did IA document each Patton tank that was damaged to see vulnerable points etc? And those captured intact were they used at Armour school to see how they work?
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:This is a royal shame.

A Defaced and Broken Grave of a National Hero Tells a Story of Our National Character
http://heritagetimes.in/a-defaced-and-b ... character/
26 Dec 2020

Where was this defacement? Not clear.
Many writers in their passion don't highlight where things happen!
This is in the Jamia Graveyard Delhi. The you tube link in the story has that detail.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by vonkabra »

ramana wrote:That blown turret was hit by a large explosive shell not 20 pdr or RCL as those are AP and produce holes.
Not necessarily - the AP shell could have triggered off ammunition inside the tank causing the explosion. There are plenty of accounts of tank warfare where the opposing tank's turret has been blown off after getting hit by AP - all the way from WW2 to the Gulf War and beyond. Wikipedia has an interesting article on this called the Jack-in-the-box effect.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Probable but not plausible. A Patton tank carries about 90 shells. The mix is 60% AP and 40% HE.

And we know due to IAF blowing up the ammo train full load for Pattons was not available.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1 ... 11136?s=20 ---> One of the biggest clash of tanks post WW2, took place near Chawinda in Pakistan between the Indian and Pakistani tanks in Sep 1965. Maj Gen SA Hamid gives the Pak perspective of the battle:-

Part 1
https://www.thefridaytimes.com/tank-bat ... hawinda-i/

Part 2
https://www.thefridaytimes.com/tank-bat ... awinda-ii/

Part 3
https://www.thefridaytimes.com/tank-bat ... winda-iii/
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:This is a royal shame.

A Defaced and Broken Grave of a National Hero Tells a Story of Our National Character
http://heritagetimes.in/a-defaced-and-b ... character/
26 Dec 2020
Where was this defacement? Not clear.
Many writers in their passion don't highlight where things happen!
The power of social media. The grave has been restored to her former glory.

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 75235?s=20 ---> Brigadier Usman's grave is now full renovated & restored, first glimpse of it.

Image
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

ramana
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Very nice narration. Gives a good run-up of the battle Assal Uttar (AU) and subsequent offensives: Phillora, Chawinda
Very touching to hear the actual participants talk about those battles.
More Pattons were destroyed in these battles than in Assal Uttar for in AU a lot of Pattons were captured intact.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Very nice narration. Gives a good run-up of the battle Assal Uttar (AU) and subsequent offensives: Phillora, Chawinda
Very touching to hear the actual participants talk about those battles.
More Pattons were destroyed in these battles than in Assal Uttar for in AU a lot of Pattons were captured intact.

IIRC, many of the Pakistani tanks captured intact had less than 100 kms of the clock. The Pakistani command had so much confidence in the TFTAness of its men and the fragility of the Indian army that they forgot to train the men in how to use the tanks.

The Indian army was better trained and motivated than they thought we were.

The rest is history.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

From the Friday Times second link.
Two Armor Piercing shots hit the Centurion mantlet and did not penetrate.
Same fact was mentioned by Lt Col Caleb at Assal Uttar too. I wanted a picture of that. Now we see it.

Image

In second battle of Chawinda:
The intensity of the week’s fighting is demonstrated by the fact that three Patton regiments operating in this sector had been reduced to one.
The two battles lasted from 13 September to 20 September.
To me Indian 1st Armored was handicapped by not having the fourth Centurion regiment.
By 11 September Battle of Assal Uttar was over and the Centurion regiment attached to 2 Independent Armored Brigade should have been sent as reinforcement.
The M4 Shermans were not much use against the Pattons in Chawinda for it was a moving battle and not a stationary battle like Assal Uttar.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Don't know if these two are already posted. They are written by high ranking officers of the Indian Army. Both are Major Generals

Overall Armour operations:

Armour Operations Indo_Pak Conflict 1965

Asal Uttar battle:

Battle of Asal Uttar
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/bsdhanoa/status/143 ... 93153?s=20 ---> It is Assal Uttar Day, to mark the battle fought on 09 September 1965.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

Bishwa posted this tweet

https://twitter.com/bishwa55900127/stat ... 0857290752 ---> In Memory.

Today, Sept 10th is the day CQMH Abdul Hamid, PVC (P) of 4 Grenadiers made the supreme sacrifice in the battle of Assal Uttar in 1965.

Using his jeep mounted RCL, he is credited to have destroyed 7 Pakistani tanks before being hit.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

I have a theory of why 1965 happened.

In 1962 two global events happened- Cuban Missile Crisis and Chinese aggression.
We won't bother about the first event.

With respect to second event, Indian political system was in disarray after the Chinese attack. And Indian military was under massive reorganization. The US-UK conducted exercises and got insight to the capability of the Indian military. Then Nehru died and LBS succeeded him. Not much was known about him and political divisions were rampant. Add the famine and language crisis.
In US it was LBJ as President. The DC establishment considered India in Soviet camp by tendency if not directly.
So in January they ran Crisis Games and despite denial they gave the go ahead to Ayub Khan with the proviso of plausible deniability.
They already pumped a lot of Pattons, the Air forces bases were to NATO standard. So there experts were getting ready to write books about the war that changed the Sub Continent.
Thanks to winnng the battle of Assal Uttar all these things ground up in dust.
Infact Philip Talbot lamented to KS garu.
So the inception for 1965 was US.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 66240?s=20 ---> The indefatigable tank buster! Bravest of the Brave! Sometime back, then Army Chief Bipin Rawat unveiled a memorial to him at his home district. The Chief actually touched the feet of his widow (who is now deceased).

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/manaman_chhina/stat ... 05767?s=20 ---> The grave of CQMH Abdul Hamid, Param Vir Chakra soon after the Battle of Asal Uttar in which he died this day in 1965. In the background is his RCL jeep with which he destroyed 4 Pakistani tanks. His jeep received a direct hit by enemy tank. He was buried where he died fighting.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ArjunPandit »

ramana wrote: Infact Philip Talbot lamented to KS garu.
what did he lament garu?
In previous pages you have also mentioned that malaysia was planning to seize A&N islands; like a hyena/jackal seizing left overs.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by rohitvats »

- Pakistan Army lost 196 tanks in 1 Corps sector in Sialkot.
- Does not include the mauling they received in Asal Uttar
- On 11 Sep, Pakistan Army lost 67 tanks
- Of these, 17 Poona Horse destroyed 28 tanks
- While 4 Horse destroyed 23 tanks
- These regiments finished 1965 War with 62 & 79 enemy tanks destroyed :shock:
- Between 8-22 Sep 1965, Pakistan lost 196 tanks!!!

- In Asal Uttar, PA lost 140+ tanks.

Indian 1 Armd Division started battle with 181 tanks
- Destroyed and Class V loses: 49
- Reinforced with 43 tanks from reserves.
- Because unlike Pakistan, we'd maintained reserves and not used them to raise extra tank regiments.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by ramana »

History of Pak SSG

https://t.co/6c4zP8Qf0r?amp=1

Gives details of SSG airfields Para drop.
And pre launch critique of Gibraltar.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/14 ... 18916?s=20 ---> 56th anniversary of the 1965 war in which the "Short, dhoti clad" Lal Bahadur Shastri handed Ayub Khan's backside to him on a platter. A short summary of the war.

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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by fanne »

A very beautiful narration of the war and its impact on TSP -

https://threader.app/thread/1442471012176588800

With all credits to original poster - Read the original. I am posting in case the material gets lost from Twitter (Twitter has a habit of banning pro-Indian handles - they are Hinduphobic and Indophobic)

Ambush In Punjab: Decline & Fall of the Pakistani Army.Most Indians know of Asal Uttar as the moment in history when Pak Armour rolled into a well laid Indian trap.Few truly grasp the enormity of the event; of the coup the Indians pulled off in 'The Punjab'Thread:Pakistan & it's Army in 65 was very different from the country we know it to be today. It was arguably the better country by living standards, better economic prospects than it's 'Hindoo' neighbour & an Army that reflected this realityCompetent & well trained officers, many of whom were WW2 veterans; experienced NCOs & JCOs, an influx of modern yankee weaponry, aggressive tactics & most importantly - confidence.Put yourself in their shoes for a moment. Mighty India has just been defeated in Ladakh in 62, it's Army estb has been shaken up, the PM's a pacifist & it hasn't bothered putting up a fight in the Rann of Kutch lately.Maybe Ayub is right. A few a couple of hard blows to end it.So, as time ticks on, Op Gibraltar is launched - ”Last chance to take Kashmir by force”. They think Kashmiri's will aid them in their quest to wrest the region from the Indian Union.Well...it all goes tits up (as a certain Col Mehdi predicted *wink*)The locals end up informing authorities who start rounding up the infiltrators like they're a bunch of local 'goondas'To further add insult to injury, the Indians cross into PoK & take Haji Pir.In summary, the op went about as well as the "Ghabrana Nahi hai" slogan.Ayub now needs to save face & unleashes a Pakistani Army that is at it's peak. The results are telling.The Pak war machine drives towards Akhnoor to sever the only all-weather lifeline to India’s main Infantry division in J&K. If successful, Jammu would fall.To relieve the pressure on Akhnoor & counteract the gains made by the foe in Chamb, India's 1 Corps does something that the Pakistani's don't expect.They cross over into Pakistani Punjab, the beating heart of Pak, threatening Sialkot & Lahore.The Gambit works. Pakistan's offensive loses steam & is forced to contain the Indian push, starting to draw units that would otherwise be used to exploit the advantageous Pakistani position.India's XI Corps, comprising the 15th Division, 7th Infantry Division & the legendary 4th Mountain Division, will also make their presence in Pakistan known.(Sidenote: 4th Div won 4 Victoria Crosses and 3 George Crosses during WW2.)Their target is the Ichogil Canal, a position so formidable, it was considered one of Pakistan's prized defensive lines.The 15th move on the Amritsar–Lahore axis, 7th advances on the Khalra-Barki axis while the 4th, comprising two brigades and a regiment of armour secures an area up to Ichhogil canal along the Asal Uttar- Khem Karan –Kasur axis.The Indian top brass correctly assumes the main Pak counter offensive would arrive on the Kasur–Khem Karan axis.If this offensive succeeded, they would advance towards the Beas Bridge and cut off Indian forces in the Amritsar–Lahore area.The Indian leadership's assumptions of Pakistani Armour with with at least two infantry brigades being part of such an offensive would also be proven correct. Oddly therefore, the Indian armoured brigade was located in 15th's sector and not in the AO of the 4th Mountain Division.A tempest cometh:The Pakistani operational plan sought a quick and decisive victory as they were well aware of their inability to fight a drawn out attritional battle. They sought a Rommel like push that would catch the 'Monty's' unaware.The offensive was to be launched in two phases. Phase 1 would see the 11th Infantry Division establish a bridgehead after overcoming obstacles in the area of Khem Karan.Phase 2 involved the much famed 1st Armoured Division breaking out from the bridgehead into three axes. (It is important to note that Indian intelligence had failed to pick up on the 1 Armd Div prowling the area. They were being hunted & they had no idea.)The first axis would see the 4th Armoured Brigade with two armoured regiments and a mechanized infantry battalion move along Valtoha-Fatehabad & then straddle the Sobraon branch canal, with the aim of capturing the bridges on the Beas.This would cut off West Punjab from the rest of India and sever XI corps main line of communications and supply.The second axis would see 3 Armoured Brigade with two armd regts and a mechanized infantry battalion move along Khem Karan-Bhikkiwind-Taran Taran & then straddle Kasur branch canal, capturing Jandiala Guru and cutting off the Grand Trunk Road connecting Amritsar with Jallandhar.The third axis would provide flank protection- the 5th Armoured Brigade with one armoured regiment and an infantry battalion were to advance west of Kasur – Khem Karan- Bhikkiwind. Harike Bridge would be captured by 8th September and the Beas Bridge reached by the evening of 9th.If successful this would cut off Indian's west of the Beas and allow for the eventual encirclement and destruction of XI Corps followed by the capture of Amritsar.Delhi –a mere 24 hour drive would be open with no substantial reserves standing in the way.This is why this battle has since been referred to as India’s ‘Fourth Battle of Panipat’.Given that the element of surprise & technology was on Pakistan's side, this almost very well was that fourth battle."Why Asal Uttar?":It was fate you could say. Maybe Ishvara does enjoy a good pun. The most widely agreed upon reason though is that it commanded the approaches to the 2 main lines of the Pakistani thrust.Once past Asal Uttar, Pakistani armour would meet tank heaven: flat terrain and the natural river obstacles securing the flanks of their armoured thrust.(You can already sense the cavalry men reading this getting hard down there. Lol)Asal Uttar itself hemmed the Pakistani bridgehead between the Rohi nallah and Sobraon branch. The frontage around this area was a mere 7kms. Once past Asal Uttar this would expand into a 15km frontage around Patti and an even larger 45 kms in the Tarn Taran area.It was therefore critical for the Indians that the Pakistani blitz be stopped cold at Asal Uttar.Iron Horses:Pakistan entered the war with a decisive advantage in terms of armour. American made Pattons had reached the army. It possessed an awe inspiring 90mm main gun, 2 HMGs, Infra red capability and a rangefinder for long range duelling as far as 2000 yards.It's frontal armour was 120 mm thick, immunising it from Shermans. Close range shots at 500 yards to the sides was the only way a majority of India's cavalry could overpower this beast. Only the Indian Centurion had the armour and firepower to go toe to toe with this machine.This being said, it is important to note that favouritism in the Ayyub military, lack of proper staffing & irregularities in the curriculum at the Armoured Corps Centre and School had a negative impact on the crews.Many were not proficient/familiarized enough to handle all the sophisticated equipment in the tank -particularly the rangefinder targeting mechanism.This however should not take away from the fact that when the war came, they fielded 806 tanks and tank destroyers in 18 armoured regiments (approx 44 per regt) with 356 of them being M47/M48 Pattons.Dwell on that figure for a moment.At Asal Uttar, 5 Patton regiments,1 Chafee Recon Regiment,1 Sherman Regiment faced down an Indian tank force of 1 Centurion Regiment,1 Sherman Regiment (lacking a third of its strength)and 1 light AMX regiment(lacking a third of its strength).Pakistan had a 3 :1 advantage in armour and an actual 5:1 advantage in the Patton Vs Centurion column.It should have been a hot knife through butter at Asal Uttar.India for it's part would enter the war with 14 Armoured Regiments that amongst other tanks had only 186 Centurions. It also followed RTR 'Caution', a British legacy. Offensives lacked the daring & panache of the Pakistani Cavalry but it was a stubborn customer in defence.The British Centurion or 'Bade bhai’ to the Indians who ran these regal steeds was a reliable & strapping tank with a deadly accurate gun. In the hands of skilled crew, it was worth it's weight in gold; doling out destruction at a terrifying rate.Yom Kippur, Ben Gal anyone?It's armour ranged between 50 – 150mm and in 1965 was armed with a 20-Pounder(84 mm) rifled gun (later replaced by the 105 mm L7; Sho't come to mind?).Crucially it lacked night fighting capability or the sort of rangefinder equipment the Patton's ran.What the Indians had in droves were well drilled crews who through seemingly odd practices found a way to boost crew confidence & proficiency while also building on their gunnery skills.They developed a 3-round firing technique that made full use of the Centurions quick firing ability- where a gunner unleashed a flurry of 3 rounds every 12 to 15 seconds.At medium and close ranges (600-1200 yards) the flat trajectory of the centurion's super velocity ammunition required no range estimation.Gunners could fire away the 3-round set assuring a 90% hit probability.This high rate of fire at mid to close ranges proved a decisive advantage as the Patton was hindered by it's complicated rangefinder mechanism which while ideal in long range duels, needed proficient crews & a familiarity with the tank.Pakistani crews were often unable to react in closer ranges due to the unrelenting fire the centurions would pour upon them before they took out the tank or even had an opportunity to react.Ingenuity:The 4th, in anticipation of the typhoon of metal headed their way, decided to breach the Rohi Nala and the distributary canals to flood the area to the south and and southwest of the defended sector.This restricted movements in otherwise ideal tank country.The already narrow frontline had just become a deadly trap that in the coming hours would see a mauling the kind Punjab had seldom seen in it's recent past.This one step would prove incredibly pivotal in the upcoming battle.The original plan called for a launch of operations on the 8th,but a combination of poor engineering preparation and disruptive Indian artillery fire delayed this by hours giving more time for the defenders to prepare.The Indian Infantry battalions occupied the centre supported by the division's anti-tank elements and divisional artillery to the rear. 2 squadrons of the Deccan Horse supported the flanks.The time had come.The Battle Begins: Tank DuelsSept 8, 08:30 AM. A combat group of two squadrons of Chaffee tanks & a squadron of Pattons launch a reconnaissance in force (used to probe combat ability). They aim to attack a gun area via the Northern Flank.Within 900m of Indian defences, they are fired upon; courtesy of hull-down Sherman's of the Deccan Horse who have patiently been waiting for their moment amongst sugarcane fields.The Pak attack breaks into smaller groups & attempt to find weaknesses along the Indian line. As the Pattons move through the sugarcane fields, their positions are revealed by the swaying of the tall crop. Worse yet, their turrets are seen by both Indian tank crews & RCL crews.A.S. Vaidya's (yes, later COAS) contingent of Sherman tanks begin pouring effective fire on the probing Pak armour. He would lose 4 of his 'horses' but not before forcing the Pakistani's to fall back at the cost of 11 tanks.Stahlgewittern: 4th Mountain Division.A proper frontal assault is made by the Pak 5th Armour Brigade on the defensive line that the 4th Mountain Division holds. It succeeds in overrunning an area held by the 1/9 Gorkha Rifles.During an attack on 4 Grenadiers (who defended an area which lay behind the 1/9 Gorkhas) from the northern flank, it is fired upon by one squadron of 3 Cavalry which had taken position in the Bhikiwind area.The Pakistani's were enlarging their bridge head in the Bhura Kuhna-Mastgarh area, for their armoured division to break out.Heavy fighting takes place in the 4th Grenadiers AO where Pak armour manages to overrun some positions, in spite of effective fire of the battalion's 106mm anti tank RCL.The guns of other units particularly those of 18 Raj Rif does damage & destroys a few Pakistani tanks. The battle continues right up until last light. A brief respite from the fighting follows.The Pakistani method of attack initially takes the Indians by surprise. A typical tank assault would commence with the approach of light tanks strengthened by Shermans or Pattons; feeling for gaps in defended areas while probing the flanks to gauge the defence.Their artillery would keep suspected positions engaged so that anti-tank guns were rendered ineffective.After this reconnaissance, some of their tanks would move to a flank to lure enemy tanks and divert incoming artillery fire. Pakistan’s armour would, at this moment, assault enemy positions followed by their infantry in APCs.The tanks would assault with six to eight abreast firing theirsecondary and main armament. The Infantry would dismount from their APCs and attack the enemy positions. All the while, Pak artillery would be neutralising enemy positions.Another method was using the assaulting tanks, normally six to eight abreast well spread out, charging enemy positions firing their guns but stopping just short of the effective range of antitank guns.Meanwhile, fresh tanks would come up and try enveloping the defences & overrun them from either flank. The aim- frighten infantry and overrun positions.A combination of said tactics had been tried by Pakistan against units of the 62nd and 7th brigades, who had gone on the offense on the 6th of Sept and succeeded in capturing forward positions.Before these units could dig in, Pak armour and infantry assaults unnerved the Indian troops, for they had not been taught or practised such tactics until 1965.Indian troops discovered however, that Pakistan’s armour assaults would wane & dither whenever the infantry stood its ground using its anti-tank guns and when supported by artillery.The units of the 4th Division were now getting accustomed to Pakistan’s pattern of armour and infantry assaults and the results were showing.Bada Bhai, Bada Action: Centurions Ahoy!.Around 2:30 PM, Pakistan's 6th Lancers with their Pattons attempt a flank attack along the western axis aimed at Chima to roll up the defences of the now engaged 4th Mt Div from the rear & smash into the artillery area.Centurions of B squadron, 3rd cavalry under Maj Belvalkar decide otherwise. At close range, the 'Centurions' (pun) gave a glimpse of what was to come.Knocking out 5 Patton's and 1 Chafee; "Press hard and get all the b*stards before they turn back and run!" Belvalkar bellowed on the radio, sending the attack into retreat.A little north, Pakistani tanks reached Valtoha Railway station by 5:00 PM. Success at last? Nope. In pushing right up to this objective, they overextended; leaving behind their infantry support which Indian artillery, MGs & snipers had pinned in the sugarcane fields.Moving east towards Chima was not possible due to B squadron and 3rd Cavalry's A squadron was now fast approaching as a blocking force.Brigadier Bashir, unable to consolidate, withdrew his units to leaguer at Khem Karan.They wouldn't know it yet but this was the high watermark of the attack & perhaps even of the Pakistani Army.Things were soon going to take a nasty turn for the Rommel's in Khakis.All in all, the day was won by the Indian defenders who had not only held on through this storm of steel but also permanently dented the myth of the Patton.Brimstone & Fire: The NightStill filled by Hubris, a night attack on Indian positions would be launched at 2:00 AM. Pattons utilizing their infra-red equipment supported by mechanized infantry, assaulted the line held by the 18th Raj Rif.Brigadier H.C. Gahlaut, commander of 62nd Brigade ordered the battalion to hold positions even if tanks overran their forward trenches.The tanks had to pass through mines & endure the hellish concentrated fire of five artillery regiments, all firing away at the unit’s frontage. Unit mortars and RCLs also lent their fire in this action.When Pakistani tanks overran the positions defended by the forward companies, Lt.Col Raghubir Singh, CO of 18 Raj Rif left his CP & *moved past 3 enemy tanks*.Under intense artillery bombardment, he reached the forward companies and re-established contact with them.By 03:30 AM Pakistani infantry advanced in APCs but upon encountering a minefield, withdrew. The attack slowly faded as they failed to dislodge the stubborn defenders.The Indians held on. They had carried the night.Out of the frying pan, into the fire:It was clear to everybody that this was just a taste of what was to come. The morning would bring a fresh wave of fighting.As expected, dawn saw the PAF attempt to soften up Indian positions but this effort largely failed. The IAF for it's part was also subdued and failed to cause much damage...well save for this one interdiction strike.They managed to hit a supply train.Bingo! This proved to be quite consequential as the ammo stocks they destroyed, limited the Patton's to 30 rounds per tank.Yikes!The afternoon saw Pakistani troops attacking with heavy artillery fire & armour. The 4th Grenadiers under command of Lieutenant Colonel Farhat Bhatti repulsed the attack.Pakistani armour and infantry made another ferocious attack on the 18 Raj Rif with the help of heavy artillery fire. The Rajput defenders fought back with the gallantry & spirit expected of them.The attack stalled & was beaten back with effective support of Indian artillery and the tankers of the vaunted Deccan Horse. In these attacks,Pakistan while managing to overrun some Raj Rif defences, lost quite a few tanks attempting multiple attacks at one place.On the whole, the defence held firm. Pakistani's broke off the attack at 10 PM. The Raj Rif fought well & the localities they dominated were littered with burning Pak tanks.Col Raghubir Singh would be awarded the MVC for his leadership in this battle.The Pakistani commanders had thrown the kitchen sink & then some at the Indian defenders but failed to make any headway.Given the failure of these frontal attacks, Pakistan was expected to make a final effort via a break out- making outflanking thrusts on the 10th of September.2nd Independent Armoured Brigade was deployed to deal with such thrusts.And 'deal' they would.Brig Theogaraj, commanding the 2nd (Inde) Armoured Brigade had 8th Cavalry with it's AMX tanks delegated to flank protection duty.A Pak armour onslaught was in the offing. The centre was held resolutely by the infantry & Deccan Horse & the eastern axis being too boggy for large scale armour movement, left only the western axis from Bhura Karimpur towards Mahmudpura as the sole route for such an attack.Theogaraj & Caleb (3rd Cav Cmd) prepared the 'Bade Bhai' Centurions of 3 Cavalry to meet the apocalypse of steel headed their way. They set their tanks in an elaborate ambush that would trap advancing armour in a fatal crossfire.A modern day 'Chakravyuh' was created but this time it was the Pandava's that would use it to their advantage.Last Page: The DeciderPakistan's 5th Armd Bde with Pattons & mechanized infantry attacked the 4th Grenadiers one last time in the morning, managing to break through forward positions.A certain Havildar Abdul Hamid, sensing the danger posed by this breakthrough "moved out to a flanking position with his gun mounted on a jeep, under intense enemy shelling and tank fire.Taking an advantageous position, he knocked out the leading enemy tank and then swiftly changing his position, he sent another tank up in flames. By this time the enemy tanks in the area spotted him and brought his jeep under concentrated machine-gun and high explosive fire.Undeterred, Company Quartermaster Havildar Abdul Hamid kept on firing on yet another enemy tank with his recoilless gun. While doing so, he was mortally wounded by an enemy high explosive shell"He would earn a posthumous Param Vir Chakra & bring his Paltan everlasting glory. Pakistan's 6th Lancers launched a final 'Hurrah!' on the 7th Grenadiers in the afternoon but this too was halted.The Hunters Become The Hunted:The original Pakistani plan called for the pinning of the 4th Div & Deccan Horse by the 5th Armoured Brigade, with the 4th Armoured Brigade launching a sweeping envelopment along the Bhura Karimpur - Mahmudpura Axis.The 3rd Armoured Brigade was to be held in reserve (along with 11th division infantry) for exploitation and mopping up operations after the breakthrough was achieved.Brig Theogaraj on his part, positioned the 'Bade Bhai' squadrons in 2 concentric horseshoe shaped semi circles designed to bring the firepower of the entire regiment to bear on the incoming enemy armour in a devastating crossfire, while also offering defence in depth.B and C squadrons formed the first semicircle from Dholan to Chima with Mahmudpura in the centre. A squadron formed the 2nd semicircle. Approach routes became traps as the entire area was flooded in order to further stall the Pattons.'Ambush! Ambush! Ambush!':"Whoever remains cooler under stress for a longer time will win. Identify, take good aim and shoot. God be with you." Lt Col Caleb told his men.The main attack began at 08:30 AM.Pakistan's 4th Cav moved out towards Dholan where camouflaged Centurions of C squadron which knocked out 4 Patton's. A few tanks approaching Madar took fire from A squadron deployed in the 2nd semicircle. A Patton and numerous APCs were destroyed.The next units to be caught in a vicious ambush were the members of Pak's 2nd Squadron, 4th cavalry who charged towards Mahmudpura.Little did they know what they had walked into. Their flank was exposed to 2nd Lt R.P. Joshi's 'Bade Bhais' who were hungry & waiting for their moment to pounce.Unleashing a torrent of fatal fire at a rapid rate into the side of 2nd Sqd, 4 Cav; they decimated the unit, ripping through 9 Patton's and 2 RCLs in mere minutes!The feared Patton's were now helpless puppies who had just been exposed to the ferocity of a hungry wolfpack.Most of them couldn't detect the Centurions who had hidden themselves extremely well. Many never even got a shot off! Such was the withering fire they were exposed to.Based on the information provided by Maj Sandhu who had positioned himself at Lakhna on one of the rooftops, A Squadron readjusted its position and set up an ambush for the incoming 3rd Squadron of the 4th Cavalry. It was now their turn for lunch.They hammered them with a lethal crossfire, shredding numerous Pattons. A troop of AMX's from 8th Cav, like wolf pups learning from their parents, also joined this hunt from the flank.4th Cavalry was in dire straits. The once proud lions were now whimpering cubs. It was being squeezed on all sides by A and C squadrons, taking catastrophic losses.It's sister regiment in the 4th Armoured Brigade - 5th Horse was being held up by the centurions of B squadron, a troop of AMXs & massed artillery fire.Petrol and ammunition was low; movement meant 3 rounds, a blown tank & frying in an inferno. The infantry support as had by now become a norm, was pinned down by Indian artillery fire.Maj Gen. Naseer Ahmed Khan, from the air in a helicopter, head of the now slowly disintegrating 1 Armoured Division (GOC), spoke directly to the 4th armoured Brigade Commander (BC):BC: It’s not possible for us to advance any further due to stiff resistance. Heavy enemy shelling has completely pinned us down.GOC: It is most important that the advance is continued. Therefore, in the name of Islam, Pakistan and Hillale Jurat, I command you get up and go forward!BC: I will do my best but as things are, I do not know how the hell I am going to do that. This bl00dy enemy artillery is knocking the hell out of us and I am afraid at the moment that I can’t do any better then this.GOC: Move forward to your objectives forthwith!BC: I cannot move; Indians are ahead of me!GOC: Come and see me immediately.BC: Where do I come? I don’t know.GOC: Move straight on and turn right.BC: Do you know where I am? If I turn left the Indians get me, if I turn right the artillery gets me. Where do I come and how?GOC: Turn right till you hit the road, follow it and you will find me at milpost 36.Now desperate to galvanize his men Maj.Gen Naseer personally attempted to meet his trapped men.The head of the pack would attempt to save his cubs.His command troop was ambushed by the 4th Grenadiers with RCLs. Brigadier Shammi, the divisional artillery commander was killed and Naseer Khan seriously wounded.Havildar Hamid's pack had their revenge.The Pakistani's had just lost their 'alpha', their 'Tiger', their 'Father'. They were now rudderless. Inevitably the advance came to a screeching halt and collapsed.Dusk brought no reprieve for the trapped. The Wolf had smelt blood, hunted their prey into a corner & now circled their meal.Dusk saw every Indian gun open up in a concert of heavy bombardment. The firepower was intense & those who could make a run for it, did.Completely cut off, unable to retreat due to no petrol, having lost physical communications with HQ & being steadily decimated, the defeated 4th Cavalry regimental commander informed HQ that if relief did not come with sunrise, he would surrender his cornered pride.The mauling was complete. If the 'Bade Bhais' had simply dented the myth of Pattons a little earlier; they had just annihilated that very same myth.Cleaning up the scraps: 11th SeptemberMorning saw the Indian centurions close in from all sides. The Pakistani's who had survived the ambush, who had seen their ranks reduced to nothing, who had survived a night of blood curdling bombardment finally broke.This was too much strain. Too much for them. They abandoned their vehicles and fled. A squadron was able to capture 9 Pattons in perfect working condition & an APC.A few hours later, the regimental commander of 4th Cavalry; the man who saw his unit dissolve under Indian fire, surrendered with surviving squadron commanders. They were found hiding in a sugarcane field.Pakistan's 3rd Armoured Brigade withdrew. It would be transferred to the Sialkot sector where Indian was leaning at the jugular. The remnants of the 4th armoured brigade also withdrew. The mauled 5th armoured Brigade was left behind as a covering force.The battle was over. Panipat was won."What just happened?":India lost 14 tanks in the battle. Deccan Horse saw 10 losses & 3rd Cav- 4.Pakistan? 97 tanks! 75 of them being Pattons!Such was the loss of material that day, that the equivalent of 2 Armoured Regiments was wiped off the Pakistani order of battle.4th Cavalry ceased to exist as a formation. The destruction was jarring.While many of you know that this is the closest Pakistan came to achieving a decisive victory against India, what is often overlooked are the deeper ramifications of the battle.It is arguably the last time soldiers in the Khaki fought as professionals. While ideology always ran deep, 65 saw the last of their professional soldiers.By 71, this Army had become deeply ideological & a tool in the hands of m@dmen; hellbent on ruling like feudal lords. Never again would Pakistan field a top brass as professional as that of the 65 era.It represented a shift in power. The high watermark of the Pakistani Army would be followed by a descent into becoming a play toy for the large Indian neighbour it so desperately sought to outshine.For India, it showed the quality of it's manpower. 1000 years of martial history & militant resistance had moulded a quality of men the world had rarely seen. With modern weapons, these men could accomplish anything that was asked of them.If 62 was the lowest to which we dipped, 65 was the new high the country rode; well at least until a Parsi, a Pandit, a Nair & a Jew helped make 71 a very special year for India & a new country called Bangladesh :)The Sun had risen for India. The sun had risen once more.Sources: https://www.strategicfront.org/forums/t ... 1965.1691/ … https://www.indianmilitaryhistory.org/b ... 0Uttar.pdf … https://archive.claws.in/images/journal ... avorty.pdf … (Source: https://threader.app/thread/1442471012176588800)
anupmisra
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by anupmisra »

fanne wrote:A very beautiful narration of the war and its impact on TSP - https://threader.app/thread/1442471012176588800
What an article! An excellent piece of narration. Clicking the link helps one understand the events as they unfolded and how the qualitatively advanced paki armored corps (Shermans, Pattons et al) crumbled against better strategies, cool tactics, professionalism at all levels, and, above all, dharma (duty).

The best part to me was this ending:
A few hours later, the regimental commander of 4th Cavalry; the man who saw his unit dissolve under Indian fire, surrendered with surviving squadron commanders. They were found hiding in a sugarcane field.
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Re: 1965 India Pakistan War: History

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Tiny_Dhillon/status ... 67403?s=20 ---> Brigadier Raghubir Singh, MVC of Rajputana Rifles/ Mech Inf left for heavenly abode at 99 yrs age. He participated in Burma war 1944, Indo Pak wars 1947-48 in Uri & 1965 in Asal Uttar Sect destroying 22 Patton Tanks of the enemy. His last rites with military honours in Jaipur today. Jai Hind.

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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Om Shanti!!!
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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/LestWeForgetIN/stat ... 77091?s=20 ---> A Soldiers' General, Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh, Padma Vibhushan, Padma Bhushan, Vir Chakra. #LestWeForgetIndia the gallant Indian Brave Army Commander on his 21st death anniversary today - 14 November 2021. His command of @westerncomd_IA in 1965 remains a legend in military history.

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ramana
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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

A very good description of the Battle of Assal Uttar by Maj Gen Rajendra Nath
https://www.indianmilitaryhistory.org/b ... 0Uttar.pdf
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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

The composition of the artillery at Assal Uttar was five regiments:
The third squadron was
protecting the gun areas immediately behind this defended
sector where one field regiment (25 Pounders), one medium
regiment (5.5-inch guns), one light regiment (120mm
mortars) and two mountain composite regiments (3.7 inch
howitzers) had been deployed.


A description of these guns is given below from Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QF_3.7-in ... n_howitzer
And Data Sheet:
https://nigelef.tripod.com/37inchowsheet.htm

Basically a 20 pounder with a short range of 4500 yards for HE and a high angle.
We don't know what type of shells were used. Most likely high explosive.
HE was limited to charge 4 to prevent barrel burst!

25 Pounder gun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_QF_25-pounder
Fires 25 pounds HE to a range of 13,400 yards.

5.5 inch gun:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_5.5-inch_medium_gun
Fires 80 pound HE shell to 18,000 yards

120mm mortar:
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 63360?s=20

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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by vsunder »

^^^ Ramana: One of the artillery officers at Assal Uttar was from Hyderabad whose name was Jesus Christ. CO 91 Arty.


https://www.thequint.com/news/india/bat ... -for-india

Paki radio picked some message sent in the clear by IA and the rabid creatures relayed messages to HQ that "Jesus Christ is shelling them". Raised in 1963 by Jesus Christ as first CO.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/91_Field_Regiment_(India)
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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

What a fantastic piece of history. Wow! Thank you so much for posting.
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Re: 1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Official 1965 War History - Chapter 13 Appendix XI pages 372 onwards
Role of Paramilitary and Civilians in 1965 war.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/archives/ ... pter13.pdf

Truly inspiring what our uncles and aunties did.
We would be remiss in not highlighting their role.

BTw IAF Orbat is also given on page 361 onwards
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