1965 Indo-Pak War: News & Discussion

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Austin
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Inauguration of Jaisalmer War Museum and Laungewala War Memorial

Check the picture in the pdf http://pibphoto.nic.in/documents/rlink/ ... 582401.pdf
‘Jaisalmer War Museum’ has been established in the Military Station of Jaisalmer to commemorate the sacrifice of war heroes. The museum was inaugurated by Lieutenant General Ashok Singh, General Officer Commanding in Chief, Southern Command, today. A large number of service officers and civil dignitaries graced this historic occasion. The War Museum is located 10 km short of Jaisalmer on the Jaisalmer - Jodhpur Highway. The inauguration of the museum in the Golden Jubilee Commemoration Year of 1965 Indo Pak War is also a tribute to all soldiers who made the supreme sacrifice in the defence of the motherland.

The museum has two large Information Display Halls, an Audio Visual Room and a souvenir shop. There are a large number of captured war trophies and own vintage equipment on display to include tanks, guns and military vehicles. The Indian Air Force has presented a Hunter aircraft for the museum, which was used during the Battle for Laungewala in 1971 Indo Pak War. The entry to the war museum is free for all visitors.

In addition, to commemorate Battle of Laungewala which was fought on 04-05 Dec 1971, a War Memorial has been constructed and inaugurated at the very site where the Pakistani offensive was blunted, with over 179 Pakistani soldiers killed / wounded and 37 Pakistani tanks destroyed.

The murals of the soldiers, whose supreme sacrifice led to victory in the Laungewala battle and the 106 mm Recoilless Gun (main anti tank weapon) employed to destroy a number of Pakistani tanks occupy a place of pride in the memorial. The memorial also has a state of art audio visual theatre for screening the movies on the Battle of Laungewala. Located just two hours away from Jaisalmer, the memorial is open seven days a week and the entry is free for visitors.
shiv
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

Austin wrote: In the present day its the over load of information but still the lack of real information or truth , For Eg if a Glossy Magazine says this fighter does xyz ,this missile is abc and the EW etc can jam all enemy a-z system then the discussion starts on that basis which becomes the foundation any contrary view or questioning if its true would just be proven with a link from information from the vendor or gloss mag advertising it.

Its very easy to fool people these days as there is lack of critical evaluation done for the claims and since every one in the ecosystem needs money they just print it what they are told to.

Very few Jingos who has access to people in armed forces or say pilot etc can get an idea how sometimes what we discuss is far from reality , the rest just get swallowed up with information overload

That is the reason I believe 99 % of our discussion are just trash or just guided by internet information and the perceiption of how things are , people who know in like the armed forces people may just not talk about it for us to differentiate between chaff and grain
+1
Vipul
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Vipul »

Haji Pir: How politicians betrayed the soldiers of 1965.

India on Aug 15, 2015 celebrated its 67th year of independence. Unfortunately, those who have guarded her frontiers all these years sit in protest at Jantar mantar in New Delhi demanding one Rank One Pension. In simple terms they are basically demanding equality and respect at par with their civilian counter parts.

As the government appears to be back tracking on its commitment, the protesting veterans have declared intensification to their agitation. They have pledged that they will boycott all functions the government plans to do in commemoration of the 1965 victory in war with Pakistan.

After all on Aug 14, the Delhi police came with force to evict these veterans. They manhandled an 82 year old veteran, Bishambar Singh of Grenadiers who had fought the 1965 and 1971 war. He like others sat peacefully protesting, however for the government he posed a security threat.

These shocking images of his torn shirt and hanging medals got viral and resonated deep amongst the serving and veteran fraternity alike. The anger is wide spread and its repercussions could be dangerous something the nation can ill afford.

The story of winning wars and later betrayals have been consistent in India’s post-independence history. Unfortunately the precedence to this was established way back in 1947-48 Indo-Pak war over Kashmir by Nehru.

Going by what senior army officers who participated in this Kashmir conflict of 47-48 say. They claim that the liberation of the remaining Pakistan occupied territories of J&K was only a matter of weeks and the political decision to have a cease fire robbed the Indian Army and the Air Force of a quick and a decisive victory. Nehru not only halted his winning army but he ran to the UNO thus internationalising the Kashmir issue which continues to bug bear India even today.

What followed was even worse. The 1962 war humiliating defeat at the hands of Chinese all courtesy Nehru and his policies. Unfortunately the ill effects of Nehru’s policies towards India’s defence continued to impact the nation adversely much latter in years after his death. The return of haji-Pir is the continuation of political betrayals.

In 1965 war, Indian Army had captured the strategic Haji Pir Pass. During the Tashkent talks between Indian and Pakistan, held through the good offices of Soviet Union, India agreed to return Haji Pir Pass, Pt 13620 which dominated Kargil village and many other tactically important areas.

In 1965, General Dyal, then a young major, led a team of soldiers from the 1st Para to capture the strategic Haji Pir pass, which lies a few kilometres beyond the present Line of Control between India and Pakistan.

The capture was part of an offensive strategy planned by the legendary Lieutenant General Harbaksh Singh, who was then the Western Army commander.

Gen Singh planned the offensive military actions in retaliation to infiltration by armed Pakistanis violating the Ceasefire Line, which finally blew up into a military confrontation in the Rann of Kutch.

The Pakistani Army's plan to annexe Kashmir through an operation codenamed Gibraltar had already started in the first week of August 1965. They planned to pin Indian troops down in the Kutch region and thus get a free run in Jammu and Kashmir.

But Gen Harbaksh Singh's strategy and the actions of men like Dyal dashed their plans. Gen Singh ordered his men to launch a two-pronged attack on the Haji Pir pass to capture the entire bulge and cut off the main route for the infiltrators from Pakistan. The move would also serve to cut off the main logistics support for infiltrators already inside Indian Territory.

According to the original battle plan, a sister battalion was to move towards the pass, but a last-minute change forced Major Dyal and two companies of men from his 1st Para battalion to move forward.

With damp shakarparas and biscuits as ration, Major Dyal led the 1st Para down the Hyderabad nullah towards the Haji Pir pass on August 25, 1965. The Pakistani Army opened fire on them, but an unexpected shower gave the Indian troops cover.

While they were climbing up the slope to the pass, the paratroopers located a house, surrounded it, and captured several Pakistanis and recovered weapons from them. Clever soldier that Dyal was, he disarmed the enemy soldiers and used them as load carriers for the rest of the trek up the pass. :rotfl: (TFTA Pakjabis reduced to being coolies of SDRE's)

The capture itself was a victory against all odds, including three days without proper food. While launching the final assault on the pass on August 28, the paratroopers had to walk up 4,000 feet on foot. At times they even had to crawl on all fours in the slushy mountainside in the night. But their attack was so well executed that the Pakistani troops left the pass and fled (Tradition of the Pakis to down-hill ski).

Gen Dyal was awarded a Maha Vir Chakra for this operation, and his comrades won several bravery medals.

Today one of the most pressing operational objectives of the Northern Command, if India were to enter into a conventional battle with Pakistan, is the strategic pass of Hajipir.

The Pir Panjal pass, which cuts into Indian-held territory by severing the Poonch-Uri route, can provide access to much of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir; it is also the route most infiltrators use to cross into India.

The shock capture cut off Pakistan's main logistics route in the area, ending all possibility of extending the battle into the valley. Years later, Dayal would express regret that India handed Pakistan back the hard-won bulge under the Tashkent agreement. In 2002, the retired officer called it a Himalyan blunder.

The pass, if in Indian hands, would have reduced the route between Poonch and Uri to 15km, instead of several hundred kilometres across the Jawahar tunnel. India took more than four decades to bridge the gap between the valley and Poonch by carving out the Mughal Road, opened in 2009, across the Pir Panjal range.

Military planners believe it would take more than two fully equipped divisions to capture it. But in 1965, the task was carried out by one brigade on the strength of the gallantry of a young major who led his company on a daring attack up the pass on a rainy August evening.

Today as these gallant soldiers who have made India proud sit on a hunger strike demanding their snatched honour back. Some of those sitting may have fought to capture the Haji-Pir.

The politicians and the bureaucrats in the successive governments have been left our veterans like Bishambar Singh on the civil streets to fend for themselves. Today these men of honour brave the brutal might of the nation all alone in the later part of their life. The soldier stands completely heart broken and disillusioned, betrayed yet again.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by VKumar »

Haji Pir was swapped for Akhnoor.
deejay
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by deejay »

VKumar wrote:Haji Pir was swapped for Akhnoor.
Didn't we gain some territory near Lahore too? What was that swapped for?
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

deejay wrote:
VKumar wrote:Haji Pir was swapped for Akhnoor.
Didn't we gain some territory near Lahore too? What was that swapped for?
Deejay there were no "swaps" as such. Captured land was returned - but we really should not have returned Haji Pir pass IMO particularly because it was the second time that pass had been captured, only to be returned.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by deejay »

shiv wrote:...
Deejay there were no "swaps" as such. Captured land was returned - but we really should not have returned Haji Pir pass IMO particularly because it was the second time that pass had been captured, only to be returned.
Thank You Shiv Sir, that is what I understand. We've previously discussed this on some other thread. Jagan himself had clarified then.
Vipul
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Vipul »

How India can still learn from 1965 war with Pakistan.

The immediate origins of the 1965 Indo-Pakistan War lay in an unrelated event, the 1962 Sino-Indian War. As the 1962 confrontation escalated, India realised that it needed to double the number of Army divisions from 10 to 21. Knowing that Pakistan would react to this massive expansion, India authorised another four divisions, for a total of 25. This may have been the only time independent India made advanced provision for a future military threat. Normally, we react years after a crisis develops.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, then Pakistan foreign minister, correctly predicted that with the Indian build up, Pakistan would lose any chance of taking over India-controlled Kashmir. Bhutto managed to persuade President Ayub Khan about bringing into force some immediate action. To disguise the illegality of the invasion, Pakistan resorted to the same ruse it had in 1947. Twelve thousand nominal irregulars spearheaded its attack. Having learned from its mistakes in 1947, this time the force was well-trained with regular Pakistan Army troops as its backbone. Indian Kashmiris would revolt and call to join Pakistan, mitigating the illegality of an open intervention. Oddly, India successfully used the same tactic against Pakistan in 1971.

Was it foolish of Pakistan to assume that no Indian counter-intervention would take place? No and yes. Pakistan staged the Rann of Kutch incident in early 1965 to test India's reaction to an attack. India did not react. But to conclude from this that India would be equally passive in Kashmir was the first of Pakistan's three strategic errors. Kutch was a Pakistan raid on border posts. This hardly merited a harsh Indian response. Second, against Pakistani expectations, India took the offensive side in Kashmir. Third, Pakistan counterattacked at Chaamb, believing India would confine the war to Kashmir. Yet India had long made clear that an attack on Kashmir was an attack on India.

India, believing it could not hold Kashmir by confining operations to that theatre, sent two corps, XI and I, across the international border. That spelled the end of Pakistan's hopes in Kashmir. Yet we gained nothing. We succumbed to international pressure to negotiate, as we still do. The 1965 war resulted in a return to the status quo ante, without penalty for Pakistan. 1971 was a shining exception to nine centuries of Indian passivity in the face of Muslim invasion. Even here we cancelled our Western front offensives because of US and USSR pressure. We remain passive. Pakistan has attacked India for the last 30 years, using fighters disguised as Khalistani or Kashmiri "freedom fighters". India did not retaliate. Even in 1999, India only restored the status quo ante in Kargil. Our passivity makes further attacks risk-free for Islamabad.

Still, the 1965 stalemate became the basis for the 1971 victory against East Pakistan. Western analysts have heavily criticised India's "failures" in 1965, without realising half of India's western front division was new and not fully trained. They do not realise that half the Indian divisions in the West were only partially-trained new raisings. Also, 1965 saw only India's opening moves. In large scale conventional operations, little is decided in three weeks. Thanks to the experience of 1965, six years later, we had a strategically-focused, smoothly functioning, victorious army. 1965 became a training round. The Indian Army had not fought large scale conventional operations since independence. Mistakes were inevitable and we made plenty. But we learned from our mistakes.

Conversely, we have not learned that victory in war, conventional or unconventional, depends on the prosecution of the unrestricted offensive until strategic victory.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Vipul »

Declassified US documents indicate it backed India on Kashmir in 1965.

The US in 1965 had supported India's stand that there should be no plebiscite in Kashmir, declassified US documents of the era indicate.

At the peak of the 1965 Indo­Pak war, the then Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri wrote aletter to US President Lyndon Johnson wherein he informed the American leadership that New Delhi is willing to agree to an unconditional ceasefire.He in his letter dated September 16, 1965 ruled out plebiscite in Kashmir arguing that the 1948 UN resolution in this regard was no longer acceptable.

Shastri's comments came after the then Pakistan foreign minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto told Americans that Pakistan was ready to be degraded as a nation but would not give up its claims over Kashmir.

The day on which the Indian forces entered Pakistan, US Ambassador in Islamabad Walter Patrick McConaughty met the then Pakistan president Ayyub Khan and foreign minister Bhutto who wanted an assurance from the US, UN and the international community for a plebiscite in Kashmir. During the conversation, McConaughty told them that Pakistan was responsible for this war, by sending troops inside Kashmir and using American weapons ­­ which were given for use against a communist China ­­against India.

The same day, the Johnson Administration in a separate telegram asked McConaughty to convey a tough message to Pakistan that it should not portray itself as a victim, for which it itself was to be blamed.

"We must view India's attacks across Pak border in over­all context events past few weeks. It clear from UNSYG (UN Secretary General) report that immediate crisis began with substantial infiltration of armed men from the Pakistan side," the State Department said in its message to McConaughty that was to be conveyed to Pakistan.

"We (are) aware India first put regular forces across CFL but Pak responses thereto in Chhamb area struck at points India considered vital, and Indians have long asserted (a) they could not tolerate continued Pak offensive, and (b) if Pakistan should strike India's vital interests, India would have no choice but to respond in area of its own choosing. GOP must have been well aware of risk involved in its own actions in Jammu and Kashmir," the State Department said.

But the US officials had a tough job to do to convince Pakistan for an unconditional ceasefire.

In his letter to Johnson, Shastri wrote, "I should like to state quite categorically that there can be no further question of any plebiscite to ascertain the wishes of the people of Jammu & Kashmir."

In his letter Shastri explained as to why India agreed to a plebiscite in Kashmir in 1948 and this is no longer an option. "The reason why, when in 1947, we first went to the Security Council with a complaint of aggression against Pakistan, we made a
unilateral promise of having a plebiscite in the State of Jammu & Kashmir, was that, at that time, the State had no democracy, having been under the rule of a prince in the British days, and we were anxious ourselves to be satisfied that the people, as distinct from the ruler, genuinely favoured accession to India," Shastri wrote, according to a copy of the letter released by State Department.

"Ever since the accession of the State, we have been building up democratic institutions. There have been three general elections in conditions of freedom. The results of these elections have demonstrated clearly that the people of Jammu & Kashmir have accepted their place in the Indian Union.

"I should like to state quite categorically that there can be no further question of any plebiscite to ascertain the wishes of the people of Jammu & Kashmir," he wrote. "If President Ayub feels that by launching an invasion on the State of Jammu & Kashmir, he will pressurise us into ceding any part of the State of Jammu & Kashmir, all I can say is that he is grievously mistaken. Much though we love peace, we shall not buy it by selling our territory," Shastri wrote.

As Pakistan was fast running out of ammunition, US feared that any delay in ceasefire would put Pakistan at a disadvantage position and could be very well run over by a strong Indian Army, which was moving fast inside the Pakistan side of Punjab.

Even at this stage, both Ayub Khan and Bhutto insisted that US should exert pressure on India for a plebiscite in Kashmir or else America would be considered an enemy of Pakistan. (Look at the chutzpah of the buggers)

Four days after Indian forces successfully entered Pakistani Punjab, McConaughy met Bhutto with a ceasefire proposal so as to protect the territorial integrity of Pakistan.Referring to his conversation with Bhutto in Rawalpindi, McConaughty wrote in a cable that the Pakistan foreign minister conceded that because of India opening the battle front in Punjab, attrition was already becoming a problem for the Pakistani forces and attrition would soon have a ruinous effect on the country's ability to defend itself if US decision not reversed. (Lahori logic - because US is not supporting plebiscite, pakistan is not able to defend itself)

"(Bhutto) said Pakistan would fight on to finish with sticks and stones and with bare hands if necessary, but their ability to hold back Indian attack would be vitally undermined by this US blow (of imposing arms sanctions)," the US diplomat wrote to the State Department.

"GOP (government of Pakistan) would now be even less inclined than before to accept proposals which would not contain assured provision for withdrawal of Indian armed forces from Kashmir and exercise of self­ determination right by Kashmiris. Pakistan would not respond to the kind of pressure inherent in the US action," Bhutto insisted.

McConaughty told Bhutto that such a decision by Pakistan was not sensible. "I told Bhutto it seemed to us that GOP was refusing to abandon the resort to force unless it attained in advance full agreement to its basic objectives as to Kashmir. It was not sensible to assume that this most intractable of world issues that has defied all solution efforts for 18 years could be settled now by the attachment of a Pakistani­prescribed rider to a ceasefire agreement," he wrote.

"He (Bhutto) said the Pakistanis would sell all their possessions, even their family heirlooms in order to get the means to continue the struggle until the Indian invasion repulsed and Kashmiri rights established.

On September 9, the Ambassador met Bhutto with the unconditional ceasefire proposal. Bhutto rejected and said any ceasefire proposal has to be linked with a plebiscite in Kashmir. "Ceasefire must form part of final Kashmir settlement along lines: a) India and Pakistan vacate territory, b) UN administration of law and order for period approximately six months, c) plebiscite within precisely stipulated time. Without that there can be no solution," Bhutto said according to the document.

"I said India not able to agree to that now and Bhutto responded, 'Then let them destroy Pakistan!'" (if mango Abdul's suffer what goes of my father :D )

"Bhutto said 'People of Kashmir alone must decide, and no solution is complete without people of Kashmir expressing right of self determination. This is battle of survival for Pakistan. We must be either degraded as nation or prevail. We prepared fight to finish," McConaughty wrote in his telegram.

As India was on the verge of capturing Lahore, Bhutto according to the telegram, told the US envoy: "You cannot destroy...people and their spirit by one battle in Lahore." (Now where is that pen that i need to sign the ceasefire before i ski down-hill? :rotfl: )
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by member_27581 »

So a SDRE army with poor WW2 vintage weapons 'almost' defeated a TFTA force with the best of weaponry. Sounds familiar in India china context. Our fetish with imported weapons over homegrown products will cost us heavily. JMT
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shaun »

I got my first military book ,The India -Pakistan Air War of 1965 by Jagan Mohan and i should say , i have never read anything like that before.
Now that the Sky is guarded can gurus here , Shiv sir , suggest books on IA and their exploits in 1965 war :)
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by SSridhar »

A diplomat’s account - The Hindu
After President General Ayub Khan declared Pakistan was in a “state of war” on September 6, 1965, Pakistani forces put the entire Indian High Commission compound “under arrest”. While much of those actions contravened international conventions, the incarceration lasted only two weeks, as a ceasefire was declared. Here is diplomat K.S. Bajpai’s account of what happened in those two weeks :

After the Indian Army’s assault on Lahore, on September 6, Ayub made a broadcast, saying, “We are at war.” He sounded shaken; it was clear the Pakistanis hadn’t expected us to move on the Punjab front. Anyway, we were at war. So we all met at the Indian High Commission and said what should we do. If we are at war, we must follow the protocol. But even the Pakistani Foreign Office had no idea. So for the first few days we were moving around quite freely. Then suddenly they said you are all confined to your compounds. One fine night, we came back to find our compound surrounded by the Army and the police. It was rather terrifying, especially for the women and children as they went room to room, making us all open our luggage.

They said there was a transmitter somewhere, but that was a pretext. After that, we just couldn’t move out. And it got worse. My younger son was only three months old and had terrible breathing problems. He couldn’t drink milk. And they wouldn’t let our doctor, a Parsi lady, come in to treat him. There was more to follow.

One midnight, they herded all the men in the High Commission compound onto a truck, and took us to the Chancery. Once again, they were looking for the “transmitter”. They made us open everything, and looked through all our papers. Luckily, some weeks before I had shipped out all our papers, and burnt the rest (I presume they are still sitting in some corridor or corner of the Foreign Office). The Army and intelligence weren’t acting on their own though. Many years later, a diplomat who moved to Bangladesh released a letter that came from the Cabinet Secretary to the Foreign Secretary to order an inquiry into the diplomat for trying to be helpful to Indian diplomats when they were incarcerated. So the orders obviously had come right from the top. Despite the fact that this was against all convention, no one ever apologised formally for the way we were treated.

At Tashkent in January 1966, General Ayub did tell Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri in private that he regretted the actions against diplomats, but he wouldn’t say it officially. Luckily the war didn’t last very long after India fought back, an d the incarceration ended two weeks later (September 23).

(As told to Suhasini Haidar)
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

50 years after 1965 war, veterans still rue territory returned to Pakistan

Fifty years after India and Pakistan engaged in a full-scale war, the return to Pakistan of territory captured by the soldiers still rankles the veterans of the 1965 conflict.
Even as they relate tales of bravery and unimaginable courage, the veterans, who now have the non-implementation of the One Rank One Pension (OROP) scheme to add to their disappointments with the country's political leadership, question why the captured territory was given back.

One such veteran is Wing Commander K.S. Parihar (retd) of the Indian Air Force, who was all of 21 years when the war broke out and was also trained as a para commando because it was his job to airdrop these elite troops behind enemy lines.

"Pakistan thought a humble man like (then Indian prime minister) Lal Bahadur Shastri would not be able to take a stand against them...(Pakistani president) Field Marshal Ayub Khan was six foot tall. They had the latest arms and equipment dumped by America, but they forgot the Indian soldier fought for the love of his motherland," Parihar told IANS.


"Our soldiers gave their blood, and all the land we captured was returned to Pakistan... we feel angry about it," the veteran added.

Col V.S. Oberoi (retd), who is a veteran of not just the 1965 war but also of the 1962 and 1971 wars, was posted in the Samba sector of Jammu and Kashmir and was a part of the armoured corps that rolled into Pakistan and captured a key railway station, Alhar, that connected Sialkot to Rawalpindi.

"We crossed the border and we kept going for 16 days before the ceasefire was declared. In that period, we captured the Alhar railway station, cutting off Rawalpindi and Sialkot," Oberoi said.

The veteran said the army collected a number of items as souvenirs, including the station master's cash box, tickets and the station's signboard.

"However, all that area was given back to Pakistan... We still feel angry about it," he said. "Even the (strategic) Haji Pir pass (which reduces the distance from Jammu to Srinagar by over 200 km) was given back," he lamented.

The commemoration of the 1965 war started on August 28 to mark the day when the Haji Pir pass was captured.

The return of Haji Pir to Pakistan through the Tashkent agreement has for long been seen by a section of experts as a mistake on the Indian side.

Another tale is that of Lance Naik Sadananda (retd).

In a dramatic operation, Sadananda, who was 25/26-year-old at the time, along with other soldiers, blew a bridge over the Satluj river that was under the control of the Pakistanis.

"The bridge was over the Satluj and in Pakistan's control. We were given the task of blowing it up so that Pakistanis could not cross over to our side," Sadananda said.

For about 1.5-2 km the Lance Naik crawled to the bridge, avoiding enemy fire, with explosives filled in his backpack and pouches.

"There was a railway line under the bridge, we climbed up the bridge using ropes, put the explosives in place...and blew the bridge up," the veteran said.

"But when the territory was given back to Pakistan, the soldier in me was hurt," he added.

Equally exciting is the story of Lt. Gen. Ashok Agarwal (retd) who was defending Srinagar airport against the enemy.

"Enemy aircraft would fly above us, but our soldiers were brave. They were fearless, they would train their guns at the enemy aircraft," Agarwal said.

All that the soldiers had were radars to track the enemy aircraft and L-60 guns to shoot them down.

"We never gave up, we did not fear for our lives," he added, pride glittering in his eyes.

Nearly 3,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen were martyred in the war, which lasted 17 days.

The war ended with India capturing around 1,920 sq km of Pakistani territory, while India had lost around 560 sq km of land.

The Tashkent Declaration was signed on January 10, 1966, between India and Pakistan. This saw both the countries return to the pre-conflict positions by returning the territory they had captured.

The veterans, however, add that their war at present was for getting OROP."If the government honours its promise that will be true respect for us," Agarwal said.

The programmes lined up for the commemoration from August 28 to September 26 include honouring of veterans - but they say they will boycott this.

"We will not attend any government function if our demands are not met," Parihar added.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Not sure where to post but this is video of 1971 war , Looks like George Bush Sr was US , UN rep then :)

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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Truth abt 1965 India-Pak war - By Ex-Pakistani Air Chief

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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by ShauryaT »

Bharat Karnad on the 65 war. Some excerpts posted from key points made.

Distinctive attributes of the 1965 War
1) the two formations that the rival armies considered elite, their spearheads — the very best, curiously, the 1st Armoured Divisions of both the armies flopped!...This episode suggests that the fame and reputation of fighting units matter very little in hostile engagements. It is the grit and the stomach for a fight that matters more.

2) Assal Uttar was won also because the Pattons couldn’t move rapidly through the slush and the mud created by the deliberate breaching of the Roha Nala,

3) Talking of grit — no finer illustration of it than the 3 Jat of the 15th Infantry Division under the luckless Maj Gen Niranjan Prasad

4) Shastri at Taskent, likewise, accepted a grovelling Ayub’s plea to let him return with some respect, whence the Haji Pir salient captured by 1 Para was restored to Pakistan.

It points to the lack of any real understanding of anything remotely military by the political class, leave alone appreciation of, and sensitivity to, strategic geography. That is to say our political leaders have always lacked, and still do, what Halford Mackinder called “the map reading habit of mind” and the country has paid a heavy price, and continues to do so.
My comments:
65 was also, Pakistan’s last real chance of making ANY possible dent towards Kashmir or ANY Indian territory. Pakistan lost that gamble and since that point on, it has been a no win game for Pakistan and now and into the foreseeable future, still crying over Kashmir is nothing but an Army seeking to use the ruse to rule over is peoples and misuse the assets of that fledgling state.
Last edited by ShauryaT on 30 Aug 2015 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
Austin
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

The Story of 1965 War

Jagan
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

http://www.dailyo.in/arts/india-pakista ... /5963.html
Why Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh's book on 1965 war is important to read today

http://www.oneindia.com/feature/1965-wa ... 51861.html


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 731436.cms
The landscape surrounding the memorial of Abdul Hamid is pretty as a picture postcard . Paddy fields sway in the easy breeze and ashen clouds play hide and seek with the sun.It's impossible to imagine that 50 years ago the region was the theatre of one of the most intense and decisive tank battles in history .

Asal Uttar and neighbouring villages -Bhura Kuhna, Chima, Amar Kot, Valtoha and Bhura Karimpur -had turned into a battleground for four days. The desperate, do-or-die battle be between Pakistan and India began ( tween Pakistan and Indi on September 7, 1965.

By the time it was over, Pakistan's General Ayub Khan's dream of capturing Amritsar had turned into a nightmare. The combat zone had also become a graveyard for the feared Patton tanks. Pakistan lost 97 tanks in all, including 72 Pattons. Enough to create, for a brief while, an open-air showroom called Patton Nagar in nearby Bhikkiwind.

The drama that led to the demolition of Pakistan's 1 Armoured Division and 11 Infantry Division starred all of these 3 Cavalry, 8 Cavalry, 4 Grenadiers, 7 Grenadiers, 18 Rajputana Rifles (now 11th Mechanized Infantry), 62 Mountain Brigade, 9 Deccan Horse, 19 Gorkha Rifles and 9 Jammu and Kashmir Rifles.

Of the many supermen who engineered this triumph, one of the most audacious was Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid of 4 Grena diers, who displaying total contempt for personal safety, destroyed three Patton Tanks with his recoilless gun and was killed going for the fourth. He was posthumously decorated with Param Vir Chakra, the nation's highest gallantry award.

Asal Uttar, even 50 years later, he's an idol and a legend. Spread over an area roughly one-third the size of a football field, Hamid's memorial is filled with a variety of trees eucalyptus, bottlebrush, teak, jamun, peepul and neem. A bunch of jawans are cleaning the place and the boundary walls look freshly painted for the celebration of the fiftieth anniversary of the 1965 war. "Here on this sacred soil rests this brave son of India," reads a part of the commemoration.

Like almost everybody here, Pyaara Singh, the 35-year-old memorial's caretaker, speaks of Hamid with reverence. "I love looking after his memorial. It is a form of seva," he says. Visitors come from faraway places to pay their respects. "They take photographs, make films," he says. Mukhtar Singh, sarpanch, Asal Uttar, says Hamid's daredevilry blocked the march of the Pakistani fauj to Amritsar. "Unki bahut izzaat hai. For many years now, we have been celebrating his heroism with a three-day festival, from September 7 to 9. Nearby villages compete in volleyball, kabaddi, football, tug-of-war and other games," says Mukhtar, who also claims that the village was earlier only known as Asal but got its name Asal Uttar (fitting reply) after the battle.

In general, border villages seldom romance war because it means damage to life and property and massive disruptions. In times of conflict, villagers are asked to shift women and children to safer places. During the 1971 war and the Kargil War too, they were asked to repeat the drill. "In 1971, we were asked to assemble at the gurdwara where an army officer asked all of us to leave our kids and women 50 miles away," says Joginder, a 65-year-old labourer. But in Asal Uttar, there's a sense of pride at having answered the call of duty .

Often, the village was an observer as well as a participant in the war. Joginder, who was 15 at the time of the 1965 war, remembers the Indian Army asking for local guides to help them with the area's topography. He says that the young men in the village helped the army in many ways, often bringing food for its men and loading arms and ammunition in the truck.

Less than a kilometre from the memorial, the body of a soldier slain in the 1965 war was discovered in a farm some months ago.The body , locals say, was identified by the service number embossed on a badge on his belt. He was yet another hero of the 1965 war.
Some good pictures here
http://www.dailyo.in/politics/india-pak ... /5497.html


1965 War: Veer Chakra awardee IAF officer shares his memories from battle
http://www.oneindia.com/feature/1965-wa ... 51861.html
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Kashi »

A good writeup by Lt. Syed Ata Hasnain in Swarajya

http://swarajyamag.com/politics/the-ind ... -contours/

This is the first in series of commentaries that will appear in Swarajya.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

NDTV : Our Search-And-Destroy Missions in '65 war: Group Captain Chinoy (Retd)

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/o ... etd/380862
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Dara Phiroze Chinoy's story is one of the greatest wartime escapes by any Indian in any war fought by India.

NDTV: In '65 War, His Plane Crashed in Pak. Then, a Great Escape.

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/i ... ostpopular

Amazing Story , Ejected thrice and survived , Ejected over Pakistan and survived back home
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by SBajwa »

by Shiv
Deejay there were no "swaps" as such. Captured land was returned - but we really should not have returned Haji Pir pass IMO particularly because it was the second time that pass had been captured, only to be returned.
The four epic blunders in India's Independent history are

1. Nehru rushing in to UNO after we captured Haji Pir pass in 1948 and were almost on the verge of capturing the POK.
2. Returning Haji Pir Pass again after 1965 battle.
3. Not getting Chittagong Hill Tracts in 1947 (despite being Hindu Majority) or in 1971 (when we had occupied the area) for sea access to North East States.
4. Exposing the RAW mole at Kahuta by PM Morarji Bhai in 1980s.

We got to learn from them!!!
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by member_23370 »

I would think first point is the main one. Chamcha nehru really f*cked up bad with his UN visit. the rest follow from it. With PoK under Indian control pakistan would have been cut down to 4-5 pieces long ago.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 717112.cms
This was how Squadron Leader Trevor Keelor informed his wife Patricia before he left in September 1965 to scramble from his peace time station of Ambala to his Gnat squadron's war time station of Pathankot as the Indo-Pak War of 1965 began.

"When the watchman handed me the piece of paper on which he (Trevor) wrote: 'I am going to grease my bullets with pork fat', :mrgreen: I knew immediately that the anticipated war with Pakistan had begun. I had a class. The children were looking at my face. I was in tears,'' recalled 80-year-old Patricia.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

MM Alam and his chamcha John Frickers porkypies exposed
http://iadnews.in/2015/09/breaking-the-myth-of-mm-alam/#

and to go with this article is my video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QRBCL8agv8
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shaun »

shiv sir i read about it before .......he was using a time machine that day!!! :lol: ( 7th sep i guess ) to face two IAF sorties of very different time span and claimed his shit within 30 sec!! what a moron. And that idiot fricker was too parroting different stories at different times !!!
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shiv »

Shaun wrote:I got my first military book ,The India -Pakistan Air War of 1965 by Jagan Mohan and i should say , i have never read anything like that before.
Now that the Sky is guarded can gurus here , Shiv sir , suggest books on IA and their exploits in 1965 war :)
As if in response to your question - a free e-book on BR
http://bharat-rakshak.com/cms/index.php ... le&id=3553

Some excerpts:
wonder Lt Gen E A Vas known to a thinking General who had commanded a Brigade in this Sector wrote, “There was
80 percent confusion on our side. Thank God! There was 160 percent confusion in Pak side.”
we learnt that whereas the Armoured Division was given the latest metric maps, we the have-nots in the elite order were dished the outdated ones. This kind denial was the effect of shortages imposed by bureaucrats in the Government, who did not learn from the 1962 debacle. I am told the same state prevails today in changing to digital maps
When I asked for a copy of the Operation Order, I was told that there was none for my brigade and that the Brigade Commander had been briefed about what is required to be done. At that time, I was not aware of the fiasco of the loss of Armoured Division Operation Order and the enemy being unintentionally fooled that the loss was an intentional ploy. 6 The Brigade was information-deprived, clueless about plans, unfamiliar with terrain, and excluded from sharing information i.e., .no written orders to peruse, no signal instructions to know nicknames and code-words in radio conversations, and worse no netting of communications. We paid heavily, that too with lives, for lack of intelligence be it perceived on ground, or be it reflected in psyche.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shaun »

Yes Sir read it , some exploits of 35th Infantry Brigade went unnoticed in the official record and 1st Armoured brigade got undue credits for that.
High intensity and short period war happened in sub continent from 1965 war itself and the war was essentially a war of attrition with command and control still in its infancy which arouse so many confusion with IAF and IA.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

1965 War: Why India quit when it was winning

2 September 2015 Rakesh Krishnan Simha

On the 50th anniversary of India’s 22-day war with Pakistan, we examine Russia’s role in the peace agreement, Shastri’s mysterious death, and why India agreed to end the war when it was close to a decisive victory.

In May 1964, Indian Defence Minister Yashwantrao Chavan made a visit to the Pentagon, the HQ of the American defence department. Chavan, who was trying to rapidly modernise the Indian military, requested the Americans to sell India the F-104 Starfighter – the most advanced jet fighter of that era.

Although the US had supplied the F-104 and the F-86 Sabres in large numbers – virtually free of cost – to Pakistan, India’s request was rebuffed in an extremely crude manner.

In his brilliant little book, ‘1965 War: The Inside Story’, former Maharashtra chief secretary R.D. Pradhan narrates what US Defence Secretary Robert McNamara told Chavan: “Mr Minister, your air force is like a museum. I wonder whether you are aware of the variety of aircraft in your air force. You are still operating with Hunters, Spitfires, Vampires, Liberators, Harvards – exotic names of World War II vintage. All these aircraft are only worthy of finding a place in a museum.”

McNamara suggested that until India disbanded that fleet, it was no use acquiring any sophisticated aircraft.

What the American secretary said was offensive – and true. Although the US did not offer any help, what India did with its antiquated planes and vintage tanks remains the stuff of legend. Pradhan says, “With that background, it was an exhilarating moment when some of those junk planes, such as the Mysteres, Vampires and Hunters performed brilliantly against Pakistan’s sophisticated F-86s. In fact, the indigenously built Gnat, a small beaver-like fighter, brought down several F-86s.”

The 1965 War remains memorable for two things. One was a monumental miscalculation by Pakistan. President Ayub Khan, egged on by his scheming and feckless Foreign Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, sent a top-secret order to his army chief General Mohammed Musa: “As a general rule, Hindu morale would not stand for more than a couple of hard blows delivered at the right time and the right place. Such opportunities should therefore be sought and exploited.”

Secondly, India’s leadership – as it has done consistently over the past 2500 years – frittered away on the negotiating table what the soldiers won on the battlefield. Pradhan writes: “In a way, India’s leadership, out of its sense of restraint, fair play and endeavour to seek enduring peace and goodwill with the neighbour, seems to have missed opportunities to solve the problem.”

At the end of a bruising 22-day war, India held 1920 square kilometres of Pakistani territory while Pakistan only held 550 square kilometres of Indian land. The Haji Pir pass was also captured by Indian soldiers after an epic battle. And yet India surrendered everything at the Tashkent Declaration in January 1966.

Western ways

The US, which was embroiled in a bloody war of its own in Vietnam, acted mostly through the United Nations. However, the defining western aim was to see their satellite Pakistan get through the war without getting battered. This view is amply summed by Chavan, who wrote about British Prime Minister Harold Wilson’s ceasefire proposal at a time when India had the upper hand: “I insisted on military advantages being maintained. The UK proposals look like a trap.”

As three divisions of the Indian Army were slicing across Pakistani defences and thundering across the Ichhogil canal to Lahore, Wilson sent a message to Prime Minister Lal Bahadur Shastri and Ayub Khan: “Both governments bear responsibility for the steady escalation which has subsequently occurred, and today’s attack in the Lahore area presents us with a completely new situation.”

Wilson’s message implied that India was as much to blame for the war on the subcontinent as Pakistan. “Shastri more or less brushed aside that message,” says Pradhan. “Bias on the part of Britain would rule out the UK from playing any effective role in events after the ceasefire.”


Russian role

Russia, which was following the events with deep interest, maintained its traditional stand that Kashmir was part of India. Pradhan writes Moscow accepted the disturbances in Kashmir had been created by infiltrators from Pakistan.

Russia also backed India at the United Nations. K. Vijaykrishnan writes in ‘The Soviet Union and the India-Pakistan War, 1965’, “Support was available for India on some important technical points and objections India had raised,” he says. Russia supported the Indian position that the Security Council should only deal with "questions directly connected with the settlement of the armed conflict” and not drag in the Kashmir issue.

Fending off China was a trickier affair. Russia did not want an open confrontation with Beijing, but Moscow decided it would not remain a passive spectator if India had to battle on two fronts. According to Vijaykrishnan, during the thick of the conflict, India received a reassuring message from Russian Premier Alexei Kosygin indicating support in the event of a Chinese attack.

Sisir Gupta writes in ‘India and the International System’ that India was aware Russia would never like to see India humbled or weakened. “A strong and friendly India occupying a pre-eminent position in South Asia was very much a Soviet foreign policy interest. Notwithstanding the fluctuations in the Soviet attitude and the zig-zag nature of the course it pursued, there was throughout a broad assumption underlying Soviet policies towards South Asia, that India was the key factor in the region and that any policy which created distrust and dissension between the two countries was to be avoided.”

China got the message and backed off despite Pakistani appeals for help. Chinese strongman Mao Tse-Tung was reported to have told Ayub Khan that "if there is a nuclear war, it is Peking and not Rawalpindi that will be the target", writes G.W. Chaudhury in ‘India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and the Major Powers: Politics of a Divided Subcontinent’

Road to Tashkent

With the US disinterested in the conflict and the UK showing its true anti-India and pro-Pakistan colours, it was left to Russia to play honest broker.

It was after some initial hesitation that both India and Pakistan accepted the Russian offer. Ayub Khan later said that Pakistan went to Tashkent as it did not want to risk a veto by Moscow.

There was another reason for Pakistan’s eagerness for talks. According to Pradhan, “The continued presence of Indian troops on the east side of the Ichhogil canal, facing Lahore city, was hurting Pakistan’s pride.” The heat was clearly on Islamabad.

Before leaving for Tashkent, Shastri – who was hero-worshiped by Indian soldiers – had promised his victorious troops that he would not return the land captured from the enemy after so many sacrifices. But after six days of talks, Shastri proved once again that Indians are bad negotiators. He gave away everything.

Was Shastri feeling the pressure from the international community? Most likely not, but perhaps he felt – like his successor Indira Gandhi after the 1971 war – that showing leniency towards Pakistan would buy its goodwill.

Mystery of Shastri’s death

If you were Shastri, you would dread having to face the Indian soldier back home. Hundreds of them had died while capturing the strategic Haji Pir pass, which if India had kept, would have forever nullified Pakistan’s advantage in Kashmir.

On the night of January 10, 1966, the diminutive Prime Minister but a giant among men died of a heart attack. It was his fourth cardiac seizure and was likely triggered by his anxiety at having to face an irate public and having to look into the eyes of his jawans – soldiers – whose hopes he had dashed.

There have been all sorts of conspiracy theories but the reality is that none of the major countries benefitted from his death. Russia had scored a spectacular diplomatic coup, America fully supported the Tashkent Agreement, and Pakistan was happy to get its land back.

That the Indian Prime Minister died of a heart attack comes from a most unlikely source. Shortly after Mikhail Gorbachev’s liberalisation policies in 1991, Soviet Land magazine in India published an account by an ex-KGB officer.

According to the former intelligence agent, the KGB was spying on both the Indian and Pakistani delegations in order to find out how much each country was willing to yield during the negotiations. When Shastri started getting a seizure, the KGB was listening but decided not to alert his aides because that would give away their game and lead to a diplomatic showdown with India.

Prelude to Tashkent

Having dissected what transpired at the negotiating table, we need to discuss the prelude to Tashkent.

Although Pakistan was on the verge of being trounced – unlike in 1971 and 1999 when it really got hammered – India generously agreed to a ceasefire after repeated pleas from the major powers.

Why did India stop fighting when it had Pakistan reeling? Why did Chavan and Shastri, who swatted away western pressure and gave a free hand to the Indian military, cave in?

The problem was army chief Jayanto Nath Chaudhuri. The Kolkata-born general came from an affluent background and had become army chief purely on the back of family connections and pure luck. He was elevated following the resignation of another Sandhurst-educated general, Pran Nath Thapar, the army chief of the 1962 War.

Chaudhuri’s mentors were the Sandhurst educated British generals – who had utterly failed before the Germans and Japanese during World War II – and predictably he also lacked war fighting qualities. “He was so good on paper that Chavan often wondered how good he would be in warfare,” writes Pradhan.

Chavan mentions in his war diary that Chaudhuri would frequently lapse into depression. Each time the Indian army suffered a setback, the general would walk into the Defence Minister’s room, and Chavan had to give him a pep talk. Chaudhuri so completely lacked courage that Chavan often forced him to visit the front and personally take stock.

Pradhan writes, “On September 20 when the Prime Minister asked Chaudhuri whether India could expect to gain if the war continued for a few days more, he informed the PM that the army was coming to an end of its ammunition holdings and could not sustain fighting for much longer. Chaudhuri advised acceptance of the ceasefire proposal. It was later discovered in overall terms only 14-20 per cent of the Indian Army’s ammunition stock had been used up. At the moment of our greatest advantage the army chief’s non-comprehension of the intricacies of the long-range logistics deprived India of a decisive victory.”

In contrast, Pakistan had expended 80 per cent of its ammo. It had also lost 250 of its latest US-supplied tanks.

Chaudhuri was also criticised for his lack of daring. When the Pakistani cities of Sialkot and Lahore could have been easily taken after the dash and bravery shown by Indian troops, Chaudhuri told Shastri: “We must move with the caution and wisdom of an elephant. We will take them in God’s good time.”

In fact, when the Pakistan Army attacked in the Khem Kharan sector in Punjab, Chaudhuri ordered the Army Commander Harbaksh Singh to withdraw to a safer position. The commander refused, and what followed was the Battle of Assal Uttar – the greatest tank battle since Kursk in 1943. The Indian counter attack on the night of September 10 was so ferocious that by the morning they had knocked out 70 Pakistani tanks.

But what the Battle of Assal Uttar will be memorable for are the 25 enemy tanks found abandoned with their engines running and wireless sets on. It was the perfect metaphor for the plight of the Pakistan Army.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Patni »

Can any gurus confirm that covert nuclearisation of paki's was done once pro-paki powers realised no matter how many free top end military hardware they gift to paki it can not survive against IA? eating grass for 1000 years followed and all ?
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Austin »

Patni wrote:Can any gurus confirm that covert nuclearisation of paki's was done once pro-paki powers realised no matter how many free top end military hardware they gift to paki it can not survive against IA? eating grass for 1000 years followed and all ?
How the U.S. Has Secretly Backed Pakistan’s Nuclear Program From Day One
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by niran »

shiv wrote: As if in response to your question - a free e-book on BR
http://bharat-rakshak.com/cms/index.php ... le&id=3553
on page 13 there is foto of camouflaged vehicles in fact it say 3 can any one locate them.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Patni »

Austin wrote:
Patni wrote:Can any gurus confirm that covert nuclearisation of paki's was done once pro-paki powers realised no matter how many free top end military hardware they gift to paki it can not survive against IA? eating grass for 1000 years followed and all ?
How the U.S. Has Secretly Backed Pakistan’s Nuclear Program From Day One
Thanks for the link and yes this covers post 1971, when India really demonstrated fallacy of ==ites.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

The Pakistanis published a free ebook too ..

https://www.ispr.gov.pk/Indo-Pakistan%2 ... shback.pdf

Note that while the Indian armed forces commissioned new histories, some of which did a honest self assesment of our performance, the Pakistani ISPR simply took a booklet they published in September 1966, dusted it off and republished it :P

More proof that sadly - a majority are still living in Sept 65
http://www.samaa.tv/pakistan/2015/09/50 ... ff-dwarka/
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by Jagan »

and to be fair, there are a few Pakistanis who right point out that this was a war that they started.. eg http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2015/09 ... -1965-war/
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by shaun »

niran wrote:
shiv wrote: As if in response to your question - a free e-book on BR
http://bharat-rakshak.com/cms/index.php ... le&id=3553
on page 13 there is foto of camouflaged vehicles in fact it say 3 can any one locate them.
i too could not locate them
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by vsunder »

The exploits of 3 Jat at Dograi under Lt. Col Desmond Hayde MVC, 6th Sept 1965. He has a book called Blood and Steel that you can buy at Anglo-ink. Harry Maclure who runs it is exceptionally kind. I had a problem with a book on Indian Railways and he volunteered to give me a free copy, but eventually we resolved it amicably.

http://angloink.com/

http://www.angloink.com/index.php?route ... duct_id=50

http://www.hindustantimes.com/chunk-ht- ... 31579.aspx

Desmond Hayde appears in a documentary about the Jats, the documentary is in Hindi.
https://www.facebook.com/Indianarmy.adg ... 479365955/

Here is the documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1km1qI8jDw


Alfred Tyrone Cooke's dog fight over IIT Kharagpur, by Doctor Sahib( when I heard the video, I thought I recognized the voice but from where, not from that madarsa, oh yes the throaty roar of a flight of Hunters, I get emotional now it is the plane of my young days)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQVRnQnpZwM
Last edited by vsunder on 05 Sep 2015 09:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by arun »

Retired Air Vice Marshall Shahzad Chaudhry of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s Air Force on the 1965 War:
The most notable achievement of the 1965 War was not that Pakistan won – it did not – it was that India did not win. That is about the maximum extent of objectives that this war served. Wars are fought to achieve political aims; when they do not, they are failed wars. In 1965, both sides failed to achieve their political objectives and thus both lost; in more respectable terms it is called a stalemate. So much so, that the two needed to fight another war in 1971 to achieve their political ambitions. In this case, India won and Pakistan couldn’t prevent the loss.
All of Pakistan’s war stories – popular in the public realm – are related to the courage of defending what had been wrought on itself.
Interesting comment by a poster named Prakash:
So you tried to burgle a house; Got kicked out; On top, the house owner entered your home and thrashed you; And now you are jeering at him because he didn’t take away any of your stuff?

I don’t know your definition of bravery, but you sure can put up a brave face.
Read it all:

’65, fifty years on
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Re: 1965 war India- Pakistan: 50 years anniversary

Post by manjgu »

a) so Pilot Oiifcer Shehzad should also tell us what were the political objectives of India..which india did not achieve and so lost the war? Pakis political objective ie kashmir could not be met and so it lost.

" Wars are fought to achieve political aims; when they do not, they are failed wars. "

b) "In doing so, they display a perfection in their mastery and attainment over their craft. In many ways they relive the moment of their forebears who made their mark on exactly similar lines ". Who are these forebears? any guesses?

c) what was this thing abt Nur khan, past glory??
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