Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

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Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2018 09:14

I am sure we will find a way mess it up in contract talks despite the precedent and end with far less, ably supported by top IAS officers whose kids are well placed by the informal system and dismissive of India, except as a good place to loot money.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2018 09:16


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2018 09:45

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2018 12:09

way back in 1982, when me was in class4 , govind nihalani obtained the permission of top brass to take the help of a real Mig21bis squadron in pune to create what remains the best indian war themed movie to date. a top notch actor like amrish puri played the tough flying instructor. and karan kapoor as angad singh the struggling flight lieutenant was great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijeta_(1982_film)

now, bollywood armed with 1000x more money, all the CG and clout that money can buy, presumably a more permisssive govt attitude to defence matters being shown in films (witness the history/natgeo docs on india SF), comes and produced stuff like tiger zinda hai, agent vinod, phantom (which was actually not too bad esp the last scene!) , LOC kargil (meh meh), border (meh meh) ....

we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and not just depend on the audience being dumb and easily pleased on such matters.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby prasannasimha » 25 Feb 2018 16:21

Rustom tested today some pictures

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1521648#.WpKGTyzqEu8.twitter

DRDO successfully flew its Rustom 2 today at its Aeronautical Test Range(ATR) at Chalakere at Chitradurga. This flight assumes significance due to the fact that this is the first flight in user configuration with higher power engine. All parameters were normal. Secretary Deptt. of Defence (R&D) & Chairman DRDODr. S. Christopher, Director General of Aeronautical System Dr. CP Ramanarayanan, DG Electronics & Communication SystemsMs. J Manjula along with senior scientists witnessed the flight and congratulated Rustom team.

Image


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Prasad » 25 Feb 2018 16:55

Singha wrote:way back in 1982, when me was in class4 , govind nihalani obtained the permission of top brass to take the help of a real Mig21bis squadron in pune to create what remains the best indian war themed movie to date. a top notch actor like amrish puri played the tough flying instructor. and karan kapoor as angad singh the struggling flight lieutenant was great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijeta_(1982_film)

now, bollywood armed with 1000x more money, all the CG and clout that money can buy, presumably a more permisssive govt attitude to defence matters being shown in films (witness the history/natgeo docs on india SF), comes and produced stuff like tiger zinda hai, agent vinod, phantom (which was actually not too bad esp the last scene!) , LOC kargil (meh meh), border (meh meh) ....

we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and not just depend on the audience being dumb and easily pleased on such matters.

Les Chevaliers du ciel is still the benchmark for fighter visuals in mainstream cinema. That Mirage 2000 is a beauty of a plane, even if the story in that movie is pedestrian stuff.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Austin » 25 Feb 2018 18:05

+100 Singhaji , Vijeeta is still the good standard in visuals and life of fighter pilot backed by good script and acting , I have yet to see Bollywood break that bench mark , one could still watch the movie and it gives goosebumps

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Ajit.C » 25 Feb 2018 18:29

prasannasimha wrote:Rustom tested today some pictures

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1521648#.WpKGTyzqEu8.twitter

DRDO successfully flew its Rustom 2 today at its Aeronautical Test Range(ATR) at Chalakere at Chitradurga. This flight assumes significance due to the fact that this is the first flight in user configuration with higher power engine. All parameters were normal. Secretary Deptt. of Defence (R&D) & Chairman DRDODr. S. Christopher, Director General of Aeronautical System Dr. CP Ramanarayanan, DG Electronics & Communication SystemsMs. J Manjula along with senior scientists witnessed the flight and congratulated Rustom team.

Image


The RUSTOM looks like a minature TU142M

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 25 Feb 2018 19:19

Singha wrote:now, bollywood armed with 1000x more money, all the CG and clout that money can buy, presumably a more permisssive govt attitude to defence matters being shown in films (witness the history/natgeo docs on india SF), comes and produced stuff like tiger zinda hai, agent vinod, phantom (which was actually not too bad esp the last scene!) , LOC kargil (meh meh), border (meh meh) ....

we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and not just depend on the audience being dumb and easily pleased on such matters.

You forgot Lakshya (Hritik Roshan), Prahar (Nana Patekar), Baby (Akshay Kumar), Ghazi Attack, amongst several others.
These 4 movies are really well made, for the discerning viewer and not run of the mill bollywood stuff. Please do watch !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Gagan » 25 Feb 2018 19:21

Ajit.C wrote:Image

The RUSTOM looks like a minature TU142M

What an observation Ajit.C ji
The inspiration in the tail and streamlined fuselage is there !

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Viv S » 25 Feb 2018 20:59

brar_w wrote:That a lot of the enhancements can be fitted as modifications to existing engines by cycling them through the depots has been claimed. In fact a major thrust was not to re-engine but to engineer enhancements that could be retrofitted onto existing engines.

That's true for M88-4E as well. Modifications to improve operating cost pay for themselves over the long term. Those that result in higher thrust, not so much.

The problem of course is that once you've signed up to an engine supplier, possibly paying for development, unless an equivalent thrust model is available from competitor, the engine OEM holds the reigns in negotiations. In contrast, the US DoD will keep the cost of the F135 in check, and ensure that's a full generation ahead whatever variant of F414 or EJ200 is in play.

Turkey could have simply purchased the F-135, after all it is the cheapest to buy and maintain as per you and integrating it into a new clean sheet design comes at no additional design risk or so I hear.

Yeah..no. Take a closer look at the current state of Turkish-US relations - they aren't exactly rosy at the moment and the long term prognosis isn't good either. Where there's increasing worry within the US establishment about the existing deal to supply F-35s, signing up for the F135 for induction in 2030s is hardly a viable option for TAI. That's also why the F414, a higher thrust option than the EJ-200 isn't in play either. Different political realities in play in our neighbourhood.

South Korea is looking at a 70% approach and later building on it and eventually getting to a VLO design with internal weapon bays etc. They are not "Just" developing a 4.5 generation aircraft and calling it a day. They too had a single engine option that they were at one time considering. Yet they chose to not go that route.

More likely the Koreans will end up with a "Silent Eagle" type solution. We'll see. There's a good reason why all the existing 4.5 gen aircraft aren't evolving into VLO fighters in the face of competition from the F-35.

__________________

Assuming they're starting off from the same baseline SFC, a fighter powered by the three-stream F135 should have a 33% greater range than if it were with the F414.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby fanne » 25 Feb 2018 21:15

TU 142M it is!! great observation and why not?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 25 Feb 2018 22:01

lots of aerial footage here


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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby brar_w » 26 Feb 2018 01:48

Viv S wrote:That's true for M88-4E as well. Modifications to improve operating cost pay for themselves over the long term. Those that result in higher thrust, not so much.


Details of the EDE and EPE changes, and how much of the work is common have been presented here over the years. It is worth reading again.

Turkey chose b/w the F414 and the Eurojet. The F414 was in play and GE was allowed to offer it. Similarly, Turkish F-35s are currently in the production chain with Turkish industry now integrated into the Lockheed Martin Northrop Grumman supply chain. Additionally, Lockheed Martin and Turkish industry have further signed agreements on the SOM-J as well.

I guess it is time to end the circular argument. If the F135 is so attractive for a new jet program I'm sure there would be additional 5th generation figther programs around the world picking it up. Just don't expect any to..for many reasons, some that I have mentioned earlier.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby NRao » 26 Feb 2018 05:00

Do not know if this is the right thread, but here goes ...........................

----del-----
Last edited by Rakesh on 28 Feb 2018 00:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: It is NOT the right thread. There is one thread - MMRCA thread - post in there.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neshant » 26 Feb 2018 07:06

If HAL had any initiative, they would use this opportunity to strongly lobby to produce more Tejas at a higher rate of production to plug the gap in numbers.

At the very least they could lobby to have more funds allocated towards production and R&D for Tejas on the grounds that its self-dependency is the best solution to the IAF's procurement problems.

But being a govt institution.... expecting that kind of initiative from HAL is a long shot.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Feb 2018 08:29

Prasad wrote:
Singha wrote:way back in 1982, when me was in class4 , govind nihalani obtained the permission of top brass to take the help of a real Mig21bis squadron in pune to create what remains the best indian war themed movie to date. a top notch actor like amrish puri played the tough flying instructor. and karan kapoor as angad singh the struggling flight lieutenant was great.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijeta_(1982_film)

now, bollywood armed with 1000x more money, all the CG and clout that money can buy, presumably a more permisssive govt attitude to defence matters being shown in films (witness the history/natgeo docs on india SF), comes and produced stuff like tiger zinda hai, agent vinod, phantom (which was actually not too bad esp the last scene!) , LOC kargil (meh meh), border (meh meh) ....

we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard and not just depend on the audience being dumb and easily pleased on such matters.

Les Chevaliers du ciel is still the benchmark for fighter visuals in mainstream cinema. That Mirage 2000 is a beauty of a plane, even if the story in that movie is pedestrian stuff.


My vote still goes for top gun although it's been a while since I saw it. I clearly remember every teenage wannabe would wear a tight white tee on blue jeans and zoom around in their Yamaha rx 100s trying to impress the girls :D

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Vivek K » 26 Feb 2018 08:35

Going by IAF's track record, LCA is the only choice - they should embrace it in numbers. A new competition will bear fruit in 10 years - by which time if all the parties work together - 250 LCA or more could be produced. And this could also spawn the AMCA plus a successful Kaveri.

HAL should not be the only one given the responsibility of taking this mission on - others like IAF and MOD should see the writing on the wall. The new geopolitics may see India isolated and a LCA is the best way to break that chakravyuh.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Feb 2018 08:52

IAF will get at least 200 LCAs in one form or another...I hardly have any doubts about this. Big question is how fast can they be inducted...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby srai » 26 Feb 2018 10:20

^^^
Need volume orders ... not 20 + 20 + 83 piecemeal ones. If volume orders are there, all sorts of things can happen with private players joining the fray. The industry will figure it out. But give them the business case to do so!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Feb 2018 11:55

srai wrote:^^^
Need volume orders ... not 20 + 20 + 83 piecemeal ones. If volume orders are there, all sorts of things can happen with private players joining the fray. The industry will figure it out. But give them the business case to do so!

I don't disagree here...I think the forces are in a habit of ordering piecemeal, which is ridiculous. But over a period of decades I would hardly be surprised if the Tejas is ordered in numbers equal to the fishbed in variety of mks, in fact I'm counting on it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 26 Feb 2018 12:06

what engine is rustom2 using? wiki says some saturn engine..does saturn even make turboprop or piston engines?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Philip » 26 Feb 2018 12:37

Rustom-2 is decidedly better looking than R-1.However,is going to be merely a UAV and have no UCAV capability? I am sure that it can beleveraged for that role but with a reduced range/endurance,but would still give us a great capability.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Feb 2018 12:40

UAV gives good eyes for targeting and BDR, so while UCAV's are important, UAV's also play a very important role.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Indranil » 26 Feb 2018 12:52

Singha wrote:what engine is rustom2 using? wiki says some saturn engine..does saturn even make turboprop or piston engines?

That raita was spilled by Neelam Mathews in some western mag years ago. 36 MT is a turbofan used in cruise missiles, like our prototype Nirbhays.

I have forgotten whether the first Rustom 2 prototype was powered by a Rotax or a Lycoming engine. I think it is the latter.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 26 Feb 2018 13:53

It was powered by Rotax 914 F3 engines. The tender to find a new engine to power the Rustom 2 was released in 2014. Clearly, the responses to that tender and the winner seem to have escaped our media.

The hunt is on to find a suitable engine to power Rustom II

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Neela » 26 Feb 2018 14:01

Saurav Jha mentioned last year DRDO is working with Tech Mahindra to develop 200 HP engines to replace Lycming ones used in Rustom II

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kersi » 26 Feb 2018 17:28

Ajit.C wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:Rustom tested today some pictures

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePage.aspx?PRID=1521648#.WpKGTyzqEu8.twitter

DRDO successfully flew its Rustom 2 today at its Aeronautical Test Range(ATR) at Chalakere at Chitradurga. This flight assumes significance due to the fact that this is the first flight in user configuration with higher power engine. All parameters were normal. Secretary Deptt. of Defence (R&D) & Chairman DRDODr. S. Christopher, Director General of Aeronautical System Dr. CP Ramanarayanan, DG Electronics & Communication SystemsMs. J Manjula along with senior scientists witnessed the flight and congratulated Rustom team.

Image


The RUSTOM looks like a minature TU142M


It looks huge for a UAV

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Karan M » 26 Feb 2018 19:59

Dont worry we will add the word light someplace

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Rakesh » 26 Feb 2018 20:01

:rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby A Deshmukh » 26 Feb 2018 20:05

though Rustom 2 is huge, it is dark and light. (pun intended)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Manish_P » 26 Feb 2018 20:17

Kersi wrote:
It looks huge for a UAV


Sir, very different type i know, but just for reference, size of RQ4 Global Hawk...

(please to also bear in mind that the typical American might be taller and wider than the typical SDRE Indian :mrgreen: )

Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby shiv » 26 Feb 2018 20:51

Kersi wrote:
It looks huge for a UAV

Kersi it has to be huge - it is meant to be a "long engurance" UAV and needs to carry fuel to last 24 -36 hours of flying. I think one of the erasons for teh delay is that we are going in for a "prope" long range UAV that can loiter continuously watching an area of interest which could be Malacca strait or Himalaya. It could even serve as a "repeater" that transmits signals from a sensor far away to a receiver elsewhere.

It is classified as "Medium altitude", "Long endurance" . With props and the long wings (wing loong?? LOL)- I expect altitudes of 20-25000 feet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Kartik » 27 Feb 2018 01:17

Yes, one can compare the size of the Rustom 2 to that of the Heron TP, which the IAF is likely to get this year. Armed MALE UAV, with a 1000 kg payload, 40,000 ft altitude ceiling, 30 hour endurance.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 27 Feb 2018 23:08

the film "Mausam" has good genuine footage of the Battleaxes mirage base, flightline, hangers, weapons on the a/c .... not seen such footage elsewhere. it has a CG simulation of strike on tiger hill by a 4 ship formation with 2 of them dropping 1 LGB each off the centerline which might be close to the real events. shahid kapoor plays a kind of restrained role, like angad singh in the original vijeta. supriya pathak did a better job than mausam's heroine who might be anil kapoor's daughter.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby chola » 27 Feb 2018 23:20

Singha wrote:lots of aerial footage here




Not bad as far as BWood goes. I saw this on VHS as a kid but unfortunately, I also saw “Top Gun” as a kid around the same time period. The Amreeki flick was too TFTA to match onlee.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Singha » 28 Feb 2018 00:05

top gun was all show no real substance. real pilots tend to be a lot more sober...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Manish_P » 28 Feb 2018 00:09

<OT>I saw Vijeta when I was a school kid. And Top Gun when I was in college (with the GF). I was the odd one out.. I liked Vijeta much more. Maybe it was Angad managing to recover from the spin.. unlike Maverick! Well ok so I might have had a school boy crush on Anna :)

Truth be told I really liked the restrained performances of Sashi Kapoor, Amrish Puri, Om Puri.. so realistic and different from their usual bollywood image... damn the realization just hit me that all 3 have passed away :( <OT>

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Re: Indian Military Aviation - 21 Sept 2015

Postby Chinmay » 28 Feb 2018 13:41

----del----
Last edited by Rakesh on 01 Mar 2018 00:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Post moved to AEW&C Thread


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